"J" fouling and PP boolits

[LynC2]

I am aware of the necessity of cleaning out "J" fouling before using cast boolits; however I am curious if it is as much of a problem using PP? I am just now looking into trying paper patching for my #1 .405 Win. and know I have a lot to learn! I have read a ton of great posts here, but haven't found any information on it, or maybe my search skills are weak! :coffeecom
Thanks all,
Lyn

[Nobade]

Pee Pee boolits will remove copper fouling, but usually shoot pretty poorly until it is gone. Wipe-Out foam is really great stuff to have for this use, just let it soak in the bore overnight and push most of the copper out with a patch in the morning.

Depending on the chamber and throat dimensions, the 405 Win may prove to be fairly interesting to patch for. I have several moulds that may prove to be useful in that rifle. I use them in my .416, and the boolits can be sized down a bit more to fit a 405.

-Nobade

[LynC2]

That is good dope, I wasn't sure if it made a lot of difference with a PP boolit or not. Thanks! :D

[pdawg_shooter]

I use dry (no lube) PP bullets to remove jacketed fouling all the time. Works great.

[LynC2]

I use dry (no lube) PP bullets to remove jacketed fouling all the time. Works great.

That is also good to know. Do you normally shoot dry PP bullets or just to clean out the barrel? I still have a lot to learn on the subject, needless to say. :)

[pdawg_shooter]

That is also good to know. Do you normally shoot dry PP bullets or just to clean out the barrel? I still have a lot to learn on the subject, needless to say. :)

No, I only use "dry" patches for copper fouled or rough bores. I am using BAC cut with Vaseline as a lube now. Most anything will do though. Ever tried lard once and it worked fine. For most shooting I want a lube to reduce friction and heat from friction. Heat is the real enemy of rifle bores.

[Haggway]

Be carful on leaving some of those foaming bore cleaners in over nite.
My ruger #1 in 405 has a bore of .4055, and a groove of .412. If that helps any.

[LynC2]

No, I only use "dry" patches for copper fouled or rough bores. I am using BAC cut with Vaseline as a lube now. Most anything will do though. Ever tried lard once and it worked fine. For most shooting I want a lube to reduce friction and heat from friction. Heat is the real enemy of rifle bores.

Thanks pdawg_shooter, I thought that was the case and is good to know!

[Nobade]

Be carful on leaving some of those foaming bore cleaners in over nite.
My ruger #1 in 405 has a bore of .4055, and a groove of .412. If that helps any.

Why do you say that? What have you found?
I have only used Wipe-out, and haven't tried any of the others. So far no trouble with it, but don't know about any of the others.

-Nobade

[Harter66]

The copper fouling specific solvents are hard on bores as they eat steel too. Its the ammonia causing rust as I understand it . The more ammonia the harder it is on steel to soak in it.

I had an s k s I shot probably 200 rounds through before it settled down to 3x4 groups . I have a brand new bbl that seems to shoot the same group w/o any reguard as to what its fed w/a best load ,be it PP'd or naked.

A wise man here told me to expect to shoot 100 patches before it started to shoot them well. It takes that many to polish the bore to the patches liking.It may well take that many to clear the ''hidden'' copper etc fouling.

[Old Coot]

Ammonia (NH3) by and of itself does not cause rust, but it does remove and or destroy all oils and greases rendering their ability to protect your steel barrel to nothing.

[Nobade]

Wipe-Out doesn't contain ammonia. I have never seen any evidence of fire cracking in barrels used exclusively with it by itself or in addition to Shooter's Choice. I do, however, see a lot of fire cracked barrels. The one thing they all have in common when I question the owners is they use Sweet's or other high ammonia copper removers. The theory so far is the ammonia left in the bore after cleaning causes the surface to become nitrided when exposed to the heat and pressure of the shot. The surface becomes hard and brittle, and then starts to flake off and degrade over time. After seeing thousands of barrels over the last ten years with my bore scope, I have developed some definite opinions about cleaning supplies. Thankfully us boolit shooters and especially PP shooters don't have to worry about that too much. I tell people that PP ammo is self cleaning - the more you shoot the cleaner your barrel gets. They think I am kidding.

-Nobade

[pdawg_shooter]

Exactly right Nobade. When shooting PPs all you will ever clean out of your barrel is a bit of powder fouling from the last shot. The PPs clean the barrel with every shot.

[LynC2]

It sounds like PP bullets have even more going for them than I originally thought.
:drinks:

[pdawg_shooter]

Be careful trying paper patched bullets. They are very addictive.

[LynC2]

Be careful trying paper patched bullets. They are very addictive.


LOL, so it seems. I have all of you here for "leading me down the garden path". Nobade is the worst influence of all! :wink:

[Harter66]

And so I garner a new lesson in cause and effect.

I don't recall ever seeing nitride ''flaking'' in intentionally treated parts like aircraft cylinders and camshafts even in supercharged/turboed engines. 30-60kpsi may have a different effect than the diminishing 500psi ''flash''. And the retreating every 100 ''strokes''.

[LynC2]

And so I garner a new lesson in cause and effect.

I don't recall ever seeing nitride ''flaking'' in intentionally treated parts like aircraft cylinders and camshafts even in supercharged/turboed engines. 30-60kpsi may have a different effect than the diminishing 500psi ''flash''. And the retreating every 100 ''strokes''.

The heat checking, fire cracking or crock-a-gator is a well known and documented occurrence in barrels with a lot of hot rounds through them, especially in the over bore magnums. The stainless barrels resist it much better from my experience due to the chromium in the alloy. The pictures I have seen best describe it as looking like a gators hide, rough and with lots of cracks. The SS barrels react somewhat differently as the tops of the cracks are more rounded and smoother, kind of like a cobblestone road surface.
There is a lot of disagreement over the use of ammonia based copper solvents. Some say there is nothing to worry about and others thinks it is commie plot to destroy our barrels. Nobade has a lot of first hand experience looking at barrels with a borescope and I wouldn't discount his opinion for sure.
A bit of info on the subject: https://gunsmagazine.com/rifle-barrel-burn-out/

[Nobade]

And so I garner a new lesson in cause and effect.

I don't recall ever seeing nitride ''flaking'' in intentionally treated parts like aircraft cylinders and camshafts even in supercharged/turboed engines. 30-60kpsi may have a different effect than the diminishing 500psi ''flash''. And the retreating every 100 ''strokes''.

Exactly - you won't see problems like that in applications where it is designed to work. But rifle barrels expand and flex quite a bit when they are fired, and the harder surface seems to let go of the softer substrate.

Keep in mind this isn't written in stone, it is purely theory. Originally explained to me by the guy who ran K&P barrels, and also is the operating theory over at Sandia Labs where they have the equipment to really study high speed events like this. As a gunsmith of course all I can do it theorize on things I can't directly test, but I can say with great certainty that almost every time, without fail, when I see a badly firecracked barrel the owner has been using Sweet's or other high ammonia containing bore cleaner. I also see barrels that are flat worn out - rifling may start a foot from the chamber, that have zero firecracking. And in every one of those cases (not nearly as numerous) the owner says he has never used an ammonia based cleaner. Our own guns only see Shooter's Choice, Wipe-Out, and JB bore paste when the carbon builds up. None of them exibit any firecracking, even the competition "Precision Tactical" 6.5 Creedmoors, 260s, 300 mags, etc. Guns that are shot fast and hot. They just wear out but never get cracked. So, I can't tell with any authority that ammonia is bad, but I sure have a lot of circumstantial evidence to indicate that it is.

-Nobade

[barrabruce]

Whats the score on bore tech eliminator? I bought some to try. I think its the stuff the benchresters use now with no amonia in it.

I scubbed a bore squeeeky clean with it buut put a couple of wet patches or reds red then a wipe of alox to store it till I shoot it again.

I never much clean my bores too good as I think why clean it back to bare metal then just foul it up again to shoot it.
Trouble is I have to use jacketed through this one but am worried I will have no gunk film to protect the bare metal from the copper.

Sorry for the high jack but I though it is sort of re-lated.
Barra

[303Guy]

Does Hoppes No9 contain ammonia?

I lube my jacketed bullets by dipping the chamfer base into molten waxy-lube. The idea was to coat the interior of the suppressor for rust protection but I found it kept the bore free from copper fouling. I suppose that would be the same as using a grease cookie.

I like the idea of protecting the bore with alox. What exactly is alox?

My latest rusty bore got cleaned out with dish washing liquid soaked overnight. I wonder whether that would clean other contaminants in the bore? It also removes protective oils but doesn't cause rust in itself - in fact it prevents rust while present. But rusting will begin once it is removed if the bore is not properly protected. I clean it out with a wet patch followed by dry then Hoppes No9. Seems to be OK.

[LynC2]

Be carful on leaving some of those foaming bore cleaners in over nite.
My ruger #1 in 405 has a bore of .4055, and a groove of .412. If that helps any.

Thanks for the .405 Ruger #1 specs. Mine duplicates yours and that is good to know that they are holding good tolerances.
The subject has drifted considerably from the original post; however I for one have no problems with this as long as it is firearms related and educational! :grin:

[Nobade]

Whats the score on bore tech eliminator? I bought some to try. I think its the stuff the benchresters use now with no amonia in it.

I scubbed a bore squeeeky clean with it buut put a couple of wet patches or reds red then a wipe of alox to store it till I shoot it again.

I never much clean my bores too good as I think why clean it back to bare metal then just foul it up again to shoot it.
Trouble is I have to use jacketed through this one but am worried I will have no gunk film to protect the bare metal from the copper.

Sorry for the high jack but I though it is sort of re-lated.
Barra

The Bore Tech Eliminator doesn't have any ammonia in it either. But it does really attack copper, especially your rod jag! You only want to use it with aluminum jags and plastic aluminum cored brushes with it. I haven't used it enough to really endorse it, but one of the DOE guys gave me a jug of it to try so I have been cleaning guns with it in the shop. It does seem to do a passable job for a quick and dirty cleaning.

303 Guy - no ammonia in Hoppes either. Your idea of using the dishwashing liquid is interesting. It is pretty basic, so as you have found should really pull oil out of the metal.

Lyn - glad to hear it's still OK even though we're pretty far off topic!


-Nobade

[303Guy]

My Hoppes smells a little like ammonia! I'm not sure that it is ammonia I am smelling but it is strong. I wonder if someone added Sweets to it? That could explain a rusted bore which was supposedly protected with Hoppes! I'll get some new stuff and toss this bottle out.

[barrabruce]

The bullet lube alox 303 guy.
Simple sustitue for the cosmoline they used to store guns with.
Think its what they use to rust proof cars with or simular.
Thanks Noabe I was wondering why I kept getting green with my new brass jag and bronze brush.
Lol.
I try not to get too fanatic and anal as I only got 'ol better guns really and long as they can still hit the sweet spot out where I want constantly then they are fine by me.
Plus the less I reform the rifling with the rod the better they will shoot.
Cheers.

[Nobade]

Geargnasher should be around here somewhere - he can tell you all about Alox and other lubricants. Haven't seen him here for a while.

-Nobade