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View Full Version : Another anomaly, shiny butts, shiny noses, but...



BBQJOE
05-22-2013, 02:14 AM
New mold for .44. TL 430-240
I have cast this before using a friend's mold. I got my own recently and put it to work today. Standard 50% WW 50% lead.
I tried low temps, and high temps. Cooling between pours, not cooling between pours.
Cleaned with brake cleaner. Polished with q-tips and toothpaste. Cleaned again. Poured fast, poured slow.
No matter what I tried today, I came out with shiny noses and bases, but the lube grooves were frosty.
I know it won't hurt, but....[smilie=b:



Sorry. Shoulda took a pic.

303Guy
05-22-2013, 03:26 AM
Cleaned with brake cleaner. Careful with that stuff. Apparently it is highly toxic when heated.

Not too late to take a pick is it? Would be helpful.

BBQJOE
05-22-2013, 08:39 AM
71218

44man
05-22-2013, 09:49 AM
TOOOOOO HOT. Common with TL grooves.
But it is confusing because the noses look like too cold.
I am at a loss, how can half a boolit look cold and half look too hot?

BBQJOE
05-22-2013, 10:02 AM
TOOOOOO HOT. Common with TL grooves.
But it is confusing because the noses look like too cold.
I am at a loss, how can half a boolit look cold and half look too hot?
Welcome to my world.
I usually cast right @700°. I tried taking it up to 750+ with the same results. Then kept going while letting the pot cool to 675°.
The sweet spot never showed up, but the wrinkles set in when it was below 700°
The only thing I did different was to use some ingots that a friend made. But with the bases and noses the way they are, I doubt it's the alloy.

Larry Gibson
05-22-2013, 10:10 AM
Once again......WWs have little tin. It is the tin that reduces surface viscosity and allows better fill out. Adding the 50% lead only added to the problem by further reducing the minimal tin content. The tin will also combine with the antimony and make go better into solution with in the lead. What you see is typical antimony not in solution with the lead solidifying in the smal non filled out TL grooves.

Add 2 % tin to your COWWs before you add the lead. Cast at 725 +/-.

Larry Gibson

10x
05-22-2013, 10:20 AM
1) clean the mold -use brake clean (outside) then baking soda with a toothbrush. Rinse with hot water - air dry.
2) dump the alloy from the pot and start over with clean ww alloy with a 1/2 pound of 50/50 solder (for the tin)
3) do not smoke the mold
4) heat your alloy up to 750 degrees F.
5) get an electric hot plate and put an old circular saw blade on it. Preheat the mold on the hot plate.
6) Leave a large sprue when you cast.

If you pour from a ladle make sure the hole gives at least a 1/8" stream - A bottom pour pot needs the same stream

If the bullets stick in the mold, let it cool then smoke it with a wood splinter - do not use a candle, do not use a match (wax in the shaft of a paper or wood match)
a mold smokes better when cool.
Other issue, if you can see more than a hint of soot on the mold, you are overdoing the smoke.

When lubricating the mold as per lee's instructions, get the mold up to temperature, cast a few, then lube the sprue plate hinges very lightyy with a Q tip soaked in Kroil or a high temperature oil. Too much lube can give wrinkled bullets.
Zinc in the alloy can give unpredictable results.
as can poorly fluxed alloy.
Try a different mold with the alloy, see how that works out.

10x
05-22-2013, 10:22 AM
Once again......WWs have little tin. It is the tin that reduces surface viscosity and allows better fill out. Adding the 50% lead only added to the problem by further reducing the minimal tin content. The tin will also combine with the antimony and make go better into solution with in the lead. What you see is typical antimony not in solution with the lead solidifying in the smal non filled out TL grooves.

Add 2 % tin to your COWWs before you add the lead. Cast at 725 +/-.

Larry Gibson

That may well be the solution. Never thought of that.
Thank you Larry.

captaint
05-22-2013, 10:23 AM
Plus one what Larry said. I believe I would also flux the daylights out of that melt. Looks a little dirty to me. Clean the mold again with toothbrush and dishsoap, get it pre heated good and do add that tin. Mike

BBQJOE
05-22-2013, 10:24 AM
Once again......WWs have little tin. It is the tin that reduces surface viscosity and allows better fill out. Adding the 50% lead only added to the problem by further reducing the minimal tin content. The tin will also combine with the antimony and make go better into solution with in the lead. What you see is typical antimony not in solution with the lead solidifying in the smal non filled out TL grooves.

Add 2 % tin to your COWWs before you add the lead. Cast at 725 +/-.

Larry Gibson
Guess I better get me some tin then.
So if my math is correct, would that be like .4lb to a 20lb pot?

Wait that can't be right.

it should be about 6oz for a 20lb pot, right?

hickfu
05-22-2013, 11:27 AM
4oz in a 20lb pot is 2%.... you were right the first time


Doc

Doc Highwall
05-22-2013, 11:29 AM
Convert the pounds to ounces and multiply by .02 = ounces of tin. 20lb x 16oz. = 320oz. x .02 = 6.4oz.

Doc Highwall
05-22-2013, 11:36 AM
2% of 20 lbs. is 4oz., but adding 2% tin to 20 lbs. of lead will be 6.4oz.

stocker
05-22-2013, 12:22 PM
2% of 20 lbs. is .4 lbs. , not ounces. .4 X 16 is 6.4 ounces.

44man
05-22-2013, 01:57 PM
I have to go with Larry. The alloy might be lacking tin

BBQJOE
05-22-2013, 02:05 PM
I had forgotten to write that I did put a few feet of 50/50 lead tin solder in it. But I'm guessing it wasn't near enough.

Jailer
05-22-2013, 03:18 PM
I usually see that sort of thing when a mold is not quite up to temp. The nose and sprue plate are still a bit cool with the middle of the mold soaking up all the heat.

It looks like you are right at the transition point where your mold is almost up to temp. Pre heat the mold a bit more or cast faster until the mold is an even temp and it will go away.

runfiverun
05-22-2013, 03:46 PM
i'm with jailer up the mold temp a tick.
aluminum molds suck up heat and release it fast, they take a bit to get a good heat soak.
I have a couple of aluminum molds that go from grrr whamm come on, to wow those are sure shiny nice with about 30-40 seconds more heat from dipping the corner of the mold in the pot.

gray wolf
05-22-2013, 04:26 PM
I have had that happen and the answer was more heat until the bullets looked good, then stabilize the cadence and use the correct temp for the pot. 650* to 700* Your melt should be liquid at about 450* to 500* with the [proper casting speed 650* should work. I'm betting you were looking at the bullets as they dropped and the mold got cool. It's a natural thing to do when the bullets don't look good. You have about 4 seconds to look at your work then the sprue from the last cast needs to be cut. If you dabble with the bullets yur mold gets cold.
Also you bullets are showing a slightly cold mold.

Marlin Junky
05-22-2013, 04:27 PM
You really can't diagnose the problem until you've achieved equilibrium... are you preheating your mold?

Poor fill-out is the result of two issues:

1) The mold is not clean.

2) The temperature differential between the alloy as it enters the mold and the mold temp itself is too great.

Those funny lil' micro bands could be functioning like the cooling fins on an air cooled 2-stroke engine, in that they are dissipating the heat from an alloy that is way hotter than the mold.

Put that mold on a hot plate until the shinny hardware turns color (go with an amber hue on the sprue pivot) and quickly (aluminum cools quickly) dump some 650F metal in there and I'll bet (assuming your mold is clean) that your "anomaly" disappears.

MJ

Dale in Louisiana
05-22-2013, 06:24 PM
Careful with that stuff. Apparently it is highly toxic when heated.


Used to work in a plant that made TONS of the chlorinated hydrocarbons that are used in some brake cleaners. If you heat it enough, the stuff breaks down and one of the possible results is phosgene gas, used for gas warfare in WW I. Other possibilities are hydrogen chloride gas which combines with the moisture in your mucus membranes (eyes, nose, lungs)to produce hydrochloric acid. Very unpleasant. At least it's not flammable. Just don't spray on a surface hotter than you can touch and you're in good shape. Chlorinated hydrocarbons were once used widely as anesthetics. In high concentrations you can absorb the vapors through your skin. Don't ask me how I know this.

The can of brake cleaner i have on the shelf right now does not contain chlorinated hydrocarbons. It has acetone and toluene, both of which can get you high if you inhale them in some amount slightly less than where you lose consciousness and die. Prolonged use for recreational purposes will result in permanent brain damage. these things are flammable, so watch that part.

dale in Louisiana
(too many years in the petrochemical industry)

Whiterabbit
05-22-2013, 06:49 PM
But it is confusing because the noses look like too cold.
I am at a loss, how can half a boolit look cold and half look too hot?

Easy. get some lube in there. Migrates like crazy if you do something like hold a candle to the sprue pin or something.

Wax gets into the cavity, drips to the bottom. Base comes out clean, TL grooves nice and hot, contamination shows on the nose.

Marlin Junky
05-22-2013, 08:23 PM
What are you using as a mold lubricant? I think I see some specks of lube on the surface of the boolit in the center. Scrub the mold with hot water and liquid Comet (wet the mold first before applying the Comet).

MJ

hickfu
05-22-2013, 09:30 PM
Convert the pounds to ounces and multiply by .02 = ounces of tin. 20lb x 16oz. = 320oz. x .02 = 6.4oz.

Boy do I feel dumb now!! I guess I shouldnt take pain meds and try to use math at the same time!! [smilie=1:

Doc

DLCTEX
05-23-2013, 07:43 AM
I think the problem is the oils in the new mould are still gassing. I have had a number of new Lee moulds do this until the oils are finally cooked out. Two moulds were finally dipped in the melt and overheated to cook the oils out, then the problem went away. A recent new mould for 44 cal. was so bad the boolits were out of round and this was after several cleanings with Dawn and a tooth brush and scrubbing with acetone. After dunking and letting cool down, no problems. Be sure to lube the mould with Bullplate or equivalent after overheating.

sundog
05-23-2013, 09:34 AM
If I am sure that the mould is clean, and I keep getting boolits like that I lightly smoke the mould. I Know. Some of y'all say that something else needs to be fixed and never smoke the mould. Well, I've been doing it for years and get exceptionally fine boolits. If everything right and the mould refuses to cooperate, all it needs is a little encouragement. Not gonna hurt the boolit at all.

felix
05-23-2013, 11:17 AM
Yeah, aspirin works wonders as well. We all know, or should know, that aspirin is nothing but a symptom killer, a cloak with teeth. ... felix

fredj338
05-23-2013, 01:07 PM
I would flux the poop out of it. It could be just a poor alloy, maybe a little zinc in it. It has happened to me when getting unknown alloy.

BBQJOE
05-23-2013, 02:38 PM
I took a few of them and rubbed them in a towel. The frostiness polishes right off. Don't know if that means anything.

mikeym1a
05-23-2013, 02:39 PM
Shiny butt and shiney nose.........

Sounds like a girl I knew, once....