45ACP leading like crazy - what am I doing wrong

[truckjohn]

Hey guys,

Having issues with my 45 ACP leading like crazy... Am at the point of giving up casting for it.... What is the issue?

Alloy is AC WW. Lube is LBT blue soft (The only stuff I have besides LLA) Leads with both....

Load doesn't seem to matter - but loads were: light softball Bullseye load (I think about 3.5 grains), Unique, VVN310 and VVn320...

Taurus PT1911. First - tried out the factory barrel.. Tried out factory hard cast - leading... Hornady Swaged - leading... Slugged the barrel and sized boolits 0.001" over - so 0.453"... Leading.... Home made cast in: H&G 68, H&G 130, Lee 230 TC, Saeco 130, RCBS 130, Lee H&G 68, and even the heavy 45 ACP RF GB mold...

Changed barrels to a Kart barrel.... Leading.... But.. Now - nothing chambers right unless I crimp the hell out of it.... and it still leads like crazy.....

Where to go? Give up?

Thanks

[Sensai]

Yep, give up! No, No, just kidding!!! Can you give more details on the leading? Is it full length, near chamber, near muzzle? Does the amount of leading change if the charge is increased? If you hadn't slugged the barrel I would have said that it's a typical "too small boolit" problem, but it sounds like it could be more interesting than that.

[ShooterAZ]

I size ALL my 45 ACP boolits to .452. The only exception was a Para Ord P14 45 which needed .451. I sold it. No experience with LBT blue, but all my handgun loads are lubed with a mix of 3 parts BAC to one part CR. No leading problems ever, in any of my 45's. Maybe try a different lube and see what happens.

[truckjohn]

Leading is all the way down the barrel - but worst right in the leade... Tried all sorts of loads..

I agree with the too small bullet thing... That's why I went larger... I think the only thing that happened is being forced to crimp harder to make them chamber...

Unfortunately, I don't have any "Known good" ammo that has proven to not lead in several guns to compare against....

[Cane_man]

when you seat the bullet is the die squeezing the diameter down to 0.451?

get one of your seated/crimped boolits, remove the boolit and measure the OD...

[tomme boy]

What is the dia. at the mouth of the brass? I like 0.471"

Run us through the whole loading process that you do. From expanding to a finished round.

From my experience with 45acp if you are getting leading. You are over crimping or using a LEE factory crimp die or are using too hard of lead.

[Pb2au]

+1 to both Tomme boy and Cane man. I booby trapped myself on both counts when I started load development for my 45. Once I got that sorted out, I was living the good life. Check those dimensions!

[Larry Gibson]

You've switched bullets, sizings and powders and still get leading. That leaves one or both of 2 things; the alloy or the lube.

Suggest you add 2% tin the the WW alloy let the bullets AC for 7 - 10 days before lubing, sizing or use. WW alloy can be "iffy" depending on the quality of the WWs used. Mostly that alloy is deficient in tin. Size .451 or .452 Both are standard for 45 ACP and should do fine (I also, as another did, have to use .451 sized cast in my Para14). I'll suggest trying the LLA then or switch to BAC or anothe soft NRA 50/50 formula lube.

I'll also suggest you up the charge of Bullseye to 4 - 5 gr simply because every 45 ACP has always shot much better in that range than below it with many of those bullets.

[462]

Leading the entire length of the barrel makes me think your boolits are too small.

Seat a dummy boolit, pull it and measure it. If it's skinner than when you loaded it, your seating die is putting the squeeze on the boolit. I used to have Lee seating dies that were making skinny boolits out of fat ones.

Seat and crimp another dummy round, pull it and measure it. If it's skinner than when you loaded it, your crimp die is putting the squeeze on the boolit. I've never owed or used a Lee carbide handgun factory crimp die, but many members have found it to make skinny boolits, too.

[Alan in Vermont]

Lemme tell you a story about a man named Jed,,,,,,,,,,,, OK, so he's NOT named Jed but I gotta protect the innocent with a name change 'cuz he may be a member here, or will be once I convince him to join.

He started loading 45s on his Lee press with Lee dies. When I saw him putting the infamous Lee FCD I stopped him and showed him where the whole length of the case ws being sized and might have even pulled a boolit to mic'.

At any rate I let him crimp(deflare) them with my RCBS die. Don't remember the load but they were either Lyman 230 RNs or H & G 200 SWC and they shot fine with nary a hint of leading in evidence.

Recently he loaded more 45s, at home, with Lee 230 TCs. Virtually the same alloy, which shows no leading in my old 1911. Crimped in that Lee FCD again and he got horrible leading.

If you ARE using a Lee FCD that may well be your problem. One would think that with Lee being so big into casting equipment they could make a sizer that doesn't resize loaded ammo. One, apparently, would be wrong!

[Recluse]

Those Bullseye loads are way too light. My guess is you're not getting enough pressure for the boolit to obturate and the result is massive gas-cutting all the way down the barrel.
:coffee:

[cs86]

When you slugged the barrel did you measure the slug all the way around. I found that my gun had an oval barrel and I have to shoot .454 to keep from leading in one barrel. The other cheap barrel I purchased also leads horribly and I think there is a slight lip it is jumping and scrapping causing it to lead the whole way. From all the stuff I've read I wouldn't worry about load or lube issues until you have the right size. I'd say keep working up in size and see if it works. For the time just stick with one lower velocity load and lube and work up in diameter. Just an opinion. Read, digest and experiment. Good luck I know it can be frustrating.

[fecmech]

I'm betting the OP is making the bullets smaller somewhere in his loading process. Two different barrels, all kinds of bullets and lubes and it still leads. The common denominator is the loading process, either excessive taper crimp or some other factor is making small bullets. A bullet needs to be pulled and miked!

[Char-Gar]

These kinds of posts appear here with some frequency. I always have in the back of my mind if the problem is not perception and wrong expectations from new cast bullet shooters. Folks hear/see us talk about "no leading" and they think their barrels should look like they do when fired with jacketed bullets, which is not the case at all.

There will always be a mix of lube, powder trash and some lead wash left behind in the barrel. This of course brushes out with a little elbow grease plus a good brush and solvent.

I keep wishing I could stand beside the folks and took into the barrels and see what is going one. I am betting that a high percentage of their concerns is just the wrong expectations.

[cja245]

First things first i would measure the diameter of a pulled bullet from one of your "crimp the hell out of it" cartridges. If that's not the issue, you could try using a bit softer alloy and a normal powder charge. I think Recluse is on to something with the low pressure. My guess is its a combination of all of the above.

[plainsman456]

I can't help you but i shoot air cooled ww with 6.0 grains of bullseye.

When loading a dummy round pull like was said and measure,the only crimp should be to remove the flair off the case.

[ShooterAZ]

I "assumed" earlier when you slugged and measured you used a micrometer, not a caliper. You are sizing to .453 then having to crimp the heck out of it to chamber. This would be a red flag for me. Flare the case just enough for the base of the boolit to easily start, and taper crimp only enough to completely remove the flare. Crimping beyond this, and you will be reducing the size of your boolits. If your .453 boolits won't chamber like this, size them to .452 and try again.

[30calflash]

A friend had a leading accuracy issue in his bullseye pistol. End result after much pondering was that he didn't open the case mouth enough in the expanding/belling process. Once the die was run down a little and the expander opened the case mouth up more the leading went away.

May not be the problem you have but....

[hickfu]

I got the same issue with a 44 Mag I was casting and then found out about the Lee FCD sizing the boolit in the case when I went to crimp it (darn carbide ring at the bottom of the FCD) I was going to lap it out but since I had a 44 Special boolit seating die I just took out the seating plug and set it to slightly roll crimp and now my boolits are not being resized and they work great.

Doc

[MtGun44]

An H&G 68 lubed with LBT soft blue and DELIVERED to the barrel at .452 will not lead in any
.45 ACP I have ever seen, which is a bunch. I'd never say impossible, but wildly unlikely.

Somewhere you are getting the boolit too small. Too soft is not an issue with this cartridge.

Bill

[Pitchnit]

Don't give up you'll get it and in the meantime Chore Boy is your friend. Check the front edge of the brass to see if its shaving lead when seating the bullet. I had a redding seating die that was removing the flare as soon as the brass engaged it. I couldn't see it with my naked eye but I sure could with a 10x eye loupe. Dove me nuts for weeks until I figured it out. I size .452 for a .451-.4515 barrel, Carnuba Red lube and crimp only enough to remove the flare .474-.4745. I crimp with a Lee FCD but I just barely bump it or it will resize the bullet to .451. I also used to size to .453 and went back to .452. I use a MP 200 gr H&G 68 clone with a 1.255 COL to just engage (pilot to) the rifling.

[kens]

I "assumed" earlier when you slugged and measured you used a micrometer, not a caliper. You are sizing to .453 then having to crimp the heck out of it to chamber. This would be a red flag for me. Flare the case just enough for the base of the boolit to easily start, and taper crimp only enough to completely remove the flare. Crimping beyond this, and you will be reducing the size of your boolits. If your .453 boolits won't chamber like this, size them to .452 and try again.

I have looked everywhere for a .453 sizer, where did you get one?

[Cane_man]

^^^ you can lap your die and open it up... no lathe needed just a dowel, sandpaper, and oil:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?83390-Proper-way-to-open-up-a-sizing-die-on-a-lathe&highlight=lap+die

[Cadillo]

A lot of good advice has been given. I'll just add that I load 200 grain swc's in my .45's and that one likes .452" and the other requires .453" to get a good seal. They both do much better since I increased my powder charge from 4.0 grains of 231 to 5.0 grains.

[truckjohn]

Just to clarify...
Leading = having to scrub with the copper chore boy pad... Giant chunks and strings of lead coming out of the barrel... Not talking about black powder crud and a little silver streak.....

Seems like the consensus is too small...

I will have to go load some up and then pull them down.... Mic them before and after to see what I am getting...

Loading wise - I have done it both in a Lee Pro 1000 progressive press and in my Rock Chucker with Redding dies... At first - I had issues with not belling enough, so I belled more... Then, I convinced myself that the seater die was crimping too soon - so backed it way off to seat only without closing the case mouth... Then - crimp separately. The crimp die I was using was a dedicated Redding taper crimp die set up to close up the case mouth.

I will dig up some empties and see about stuffing boolits into them without sizing - just to make sure the chamber is roomy enough to begin with....

Thanks

[Pitchnit]

With my redding seating die it didn't matter how much bell I put on the case. The die removed the bell before the bullet seated and was shaving lead. But I wasn't scrubbing out lead streaks either. I am by no means an expert and I wish you well. Don't give up. Just curious how many rounds are you shooting before cleaning.

[gray wolf]

I'm betting the OP is making the bullets smaller somewhere in his loading process. Two different barrels, all kinds of bullets and lubes and it still leads. The common denominator is the loading process, either excessive taper crimp or some other factor is making small bullets. A bullet needs to be pulled and miked!
DITTO

[tomme boy]

Don't crimp. Adjust the die to give you a measurement of 0.471"-0.472" at the very edge of the brass. The only thing you want to do is remove the bell. NO MORE!

[doghawg]

Lemme tell you a story about a man named Jed,,,,,,,,,,,, OK, so he's NOT named Jed but I gotta protect the innocent with a name change 'cuz he may be a member here, or will be once I convince him to join.

He started loading 45s on his Lee press with Lee dies. When I saw him putting the infamous Lee FCD I stopped him and showed him where the whole length of the case ws being sized and might have even pulled a boolit to mic'.

At any rate I let him crimp(deflare) them with my RCBS die. Don't remember the load but they were either Lyman 230 RNs or H & G 200 SWC and they shot fine with nary a hint of leading in evidence.

Recently he loaded more 45s, at home, with Lee 230 TCs. Virtually the same alloy, which shows no leading in my old 1911. Crimped in that Lee FCD again and he got horrible leading.

If you ARE using a Lee FCD that may well be your problem. One would think that with Lee being so big into casting equipment they could make a sizer that doesn't resize loaded ammo. One, apparently, would be wrong!

I just recently picked up a Lee FCD in .45 ACP and was skeptical of this post. I seated a couple of cast .452's and then pulled and mic'd them....and I'm skeptical no more. They were a little under .451" and that was just from running the loaded round through the ring with no attempt to adjust it down to a .471" crimp. Glad it was cheap.

[MtGun44]

I have railed against the Lee pistol type FCD for several years, and still many stand by them
as wonderful devices.

Thanks for reporting one more proven case (of MANY) where these infernal devices are CAUSING
the problem.

I've been told that if you knock out the sizing ring it will be a good TC die.

Bill

[Gliden07]

The load I shoot out of my Kimber is sized at .452 with the Lee Tumble Lube Boolit and 45-45-10 lube with 5 grains of 231 powder. When I first started loading these I had the taper crimp set to low and was leading pretty good (sizing down Boolit). I lightened up on the crimp and leading went away but then I started having issues with feeding, I increased the crimp a little and I was having a slight leading issue. I then increased the original 4.5 grain powder charge to 5 and the leading is the way it should be (I feel for lead rounds).

[outdoorfan]

I've modified two LFCD by simply cutting the carbide ring out with an angle grinder. No big deal, and that was lots faster for me than trying to lap it out. Once that ring is out, I find they work fine as a crimp die.

When I'm trying to find the solution for an undersized boolit (due to the reloading process), I pull a boolit after seating BUT BEFORE CRIMPING just to be sure the brass tension isn't swaging it down. Then I would check to see what the FCD carbide ring is doing. That's just how I would go about it.

[gunoil]

ww's make boolit harder, maybe boolits are to soft. Check hardness.

[Recluse]

light softball Bullseye load (I think about 3.5 grains), Unique, VVN310 and VVn320...

Taurus PT1911. First - tried out the factory barrel.. Tried out factory hard cast - leading... Hornady Swaged - leading... Slugged the barrel and sized boolits 0.001" over - so 0.453"... Leading.... Home made cast in: H&G 68, H&G 130, Lee 230 TC, Saeco 130, RCBS 130, Lee H&G 68, and even the heavy 45 ACP RF GB mold...

Changed barrels to a Kart barrel.... Leading.... But.. Now - nothing chambers right unless I crimp the hell out of it.... and it still leads like crazy.....

Where to go? Give up?

Thanks

I loaded up some 200SWC boolits that were already cast, sized and lubed that I've been shooting for years with zero problems. Loaded them with 3.5 grains of Bullseye and shot them through one of my .45s that has had no leading problems.

Experienced, unsurprisingly, two things:

1. Feed jams and difficulty chambering. That would be because the slide was not fully cycling and thus not getting the full benefit of the spring to feed the round in. I've experienced this before with a couple of my .45s, namely the Series 70 Gold Cup.

2. Leading. For a boolit and barrel combination that I've never had problems with, after just 20 rounds, the barrel was the ugliest I've seen it in over 20 years.

I cleaned it up, and then fired 20 rounds of my standard 4.6 grains of Bulleye and feeding/chambering problems went away and there was zero leading.

Same bullets, same head stamped brass, same press, everything reloaded at the same sitting--only change was in the powder load.

We're quick to blame sizing of boolit on leading, but don't be afraid to factor in powder charge considerations. Just as overcharging can cause streaking, undercharging can cause gas-cutting. Both cause ugly leading, and both are easily rectified by using proper/appropriate powder charges.

Just my two cents.

:coffee:

[felix]

For those who have been reading this board for some time, Recluse's post should be common sense by now. ... felix

[rexherring]

Hmm, I've not had a single problem with the LFCD in my .45 and I shoot fairly soft cast in it. I only run it up the die enough to remove the bell.

[EMC45]

Bought the Lee FCDs, used them and saw they were sizing all my ammo down and creating leading inaccurate ammo, and promptly cut the carbide rings out of each one of them. They work great now.

[Char-Gar]

I have fired a quarter million or better cast bullet loads through a couple dozen 1911s in 45 ACP over a 50 year period with no serious leading.

All bullets have been sized .452. All powder charges have been 4.5 to 4.8 grains of Bullsye with 200 to 240 grain bullets. I have used some Unique and AA5 But always go back to Bullseye.

This is just another vote for folks taking the post by Recluse to heart and stop trying to throw powder puff loads out of a pistol not designed for them. The 1911 autopistol and 45 ACP round are a great combination, but they are designed to work a certain way. Follow the design parameters and you get results, don't follow the design parameters and you get consequences.

[Larry Gibson]

Just to clarify...Seems like the consensus is too small...

Thanks

In the early 1400s the "concensus" was the earth was flat............A "concensus" does not make fact. Let me say again; don't get wrapped around the axle over exoteric stuff you would have alread corrected. The problem is simple, the solution is simple.

Again;

You've switched bullets, sizings and powders and still get leading. That leaves one or both of 2 things; the alloy or the lube.

Suggest you add 2% tin the the WW alloy let the bullets AC for 7 - 10 days before lubing, sizing or use. WW alloy can be "iffy" depending on the quality of the WWs used. Mostly that alloy is deficient in tin. Size .451 or .452 as both are standard for 45 ACP and should do fine

I'll suggest trying the LLA then or switch to BAC or another soft NRA 50/50 formula lube.

Suggest as others you up the charge of Bullseye to 4 - 5 gr (4.5 gr works) simply because every 45 ACP has always shot much better in that range than below it with many of those bullets.

Larry Gibson

[fredj338]

An H&G 68 lubed with LBT soft blue and DELIVERED to the barrel at .452 will not lead in any
.45 ACP I have ever seen, which is a bunch. I'd never say impossible, but wildly unlikely.

Somewhere you are getting the boolit too small. Too soft is not an issue with this cartridge.

Bill

I am leaning this way. ^^^^^^ IME, loading for 5 diff 45acp, from 700-900fps, no appreciable leading sizing to 0.452". I do NOT use a LFCD, I do NOT over crimp. It is possible you got bbls that are just rough as cob & they are going to lead. It could also be your alloy. You do NOT need AC ww for 750fps, a dead soft lead bullet would be better. Check the expander, pull a bullet after seating & crimping & mic it.

[garym1a2]

I run 4.2 gr BE, .452 and 50/50 lube for great results in my 1911 Kimber and Glock21SF.
I also started with the Lee factory crimp die and ditched it.

[MtGun44]

NRA 50-50 or LBT soft blue are known good lubes in my experience. If I had to stick with
one, it would be the old soft, sticky NRA 50-50 which has been supplied by many companies
over the decades.

I have to respect Larry's viewpoint, and certainly the alloy and lube need to be checked, too.

In any case, the 1911 is not usually a candidate for difficulty with boolits. Something is well
outside of the normal parameters, it is just a matter of finding what it is. Typically the
"works well" zone for .45 ACP is pretty large.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

Bullet lube for the 45 ACP isn't hyper critical. I have always uses a beeswax and Vaseline mix (about 65/35). I have no experience with the super lubes in this round but hold the opinion they are not needed.

[mikeym1a]

I guess I got lucky. When I started using cast boolits, I got a Lyman Cast Boolit Manual, a Speer loading manual, a Lee pot, and a Lee 6 cavity mold for the .452, 200gr microgroove boolit. I did the same for my .32 revolter. I used a mix of 10lbs WW and 1lb of 50/50. I never had to size for the .45. I did have to size for the .32. However, I have never had any leading problems. I remember that it's been awhile since I cleaned them, so I got both guns out, just now, and checked them. They were a bit dirty, but had no detectable leading. When I ran a bore brush through them, a bit of grey/brown dust come out. If there is leading there, I can't see it, or recognize it. That's my limited experience with cast boolits in handguns. Trying to make cast boolits for rifles, but, not shot any, yet. I hope you find your solution.

[mikeym1a]

Oh, I used Lee Alox for lube.

[Edubya]

truckjohn; PM on the way...
EW

[gray wolf]

Microcrystaline wax 1 pound and one teaspoon of Jojoba oil takes care of my 32 auto--40 S&W---
45 ACP and the 44 mag, simple and it works. I just don't understand some of the lube concoctions I see, 6--7--8 different ingredients.

[M-Tecs]

I had the same problem with my 9mm’s due to two die related issues.

First the brass was sizing the bullet due to an undersized expander. I replaced the stock expanding die with a Lyman M die.

My second issue was the taper crimp die was also sizing the brass and bullet before it started to taper crimp. The die was defective so the maker replaced it for free.

Pull some bullet and see if they are undersize.

[mikeym1a]

I have railed against the Lee pistol type FCD for several years, and still many stand by them
as wonderful devices.

Thanks for reporting one more proven case (of MANY) where these infernal devices are CAUSING
the problem.

I've been told that if you knock out the sizing ring it will be a good TC die.

Bill

Correct me if I am wrong, but, wasn't the Lee FCD made for use with 'J' boolits? Since those things have a harder shell than cast boolits, seems to me that they would tend to squash cast boolits, making the FCD counter-productive with cast boolits....

[truckjohn]

In the early 1400s the "concensus" was the earth was flat............A "concensus" does not make fact. Let me say again; don't get wrapped around the axle over exoteric stuff you would have alread corrected. The problem is simple, the solution is simple.

Again;

You've switched bullets, sizings and powders and still get leading. That leaves one or both of 2 things; the alloy or the lube.

Suggest you add 2% tin the the WW alloy let the bullets AC for 7 - 10 days before lubing, sizing or use. WW alloy can be "iffy" depending on the quality of the WWs used. Mostly that alloy is deficient in tin. Size .451 or .452 as both are standard for 45 ACP and should do fine

I'll suggest trying the LLA then or switch to BAC or another soft NRA 50/50 formula lube.

Suggest as others you up the charge of Bullseye to 4 - 5 gr (4.5 gr works) simply because every 45 ACP has always shot much better in that range than below it with many of those bullets.

Larry Gibson

Add into the mix at least 3 different commercial cast/swaged lead bullets that came pre-lubed.... I even tried TL'ing the Hornady swaged lead bullets in LLA..... The LLA treatment made them *Better* than running them dry/waxed like they come... but I still got leading in the first inch of the barrel....

Haven't actually got back down to try loading and pulling down... Will post more once I do that...

Thanks

[destrux]

A friend had a leading accuracy issue in his bullseye pistol. End result after much pondering was that he didn't open the case mouth enough in the expanding/belling process. Once the die was run down a little and the expander opened the case mouth up more the leading went away.

May not be the problem you have but....

I had this happen too.

[LuvMy1911]

I had this happen too.

Me too! But I'm really green at this and still learning... Have learned a LOT from this forum and from this thread!

[MtGun44]

Yes, Lee pistol type FCD is a problem with boolits, unless the case and boolit combo do not touch the
carbide post sizing ring. If they do, you will reduce your carefully sized boolit in the case and
wreck the load.

Avoid the Lee pistol FCD with boolits. Rifle FCD is totally different and a good tool.

Bill