44 mag wfn

[Bignutt]

I'm shooting a 300 gr wfn In 44mag out of a redhawk with a 4 in barrel and magnaporting. Seems to not want to shoot past about 70 yards I've shot nice groups at 50 then at 100 and couldn't hit a pickup! There's no rhyme or reason where they hit they have to be tumbling I think. My problem is the magnaporting maybe? I'm getting lead at the ports, gaschecks tighten the "groups" a little but not much. I think I'm getting enough speed for the bullet but I don't know. Could it be the wfn bullets? slowing them down doesn't help at all either I've tried 44 special loads with the same bullet. Any ideas on this one?

[MT Chambers]

You may need more speed....Elmer warned of these bullets becoming unstable at longer ranges and perferred his SWC for long range handgunning. I use both types but not beyond 50 or 60 yds.

[felix]

Keep in mind that sighting errors increase logarithmly with target distance and shooter age. Also, recoil plays a significant role in target accuracy at any distance. ... felix

[Bignutt]

don't seem to have any problems with a 41 and heavy loads in a short barrel, with cast performance wfn. So I'm back at being at a loss, thought it was my bullets for awhile But the 45 keiths I cast don't have problems as long as their loaded heavy, but that's another problem...

[High Desert Hunter]

If you can speed them up, I would. I once had bullets for the 454 that were WFN in the extreme, they shot like crud until I had them going max speed.

[gray wolf]

It's been said quite a few times here on the forum, the 300 and slightly + grain Wt. bullets like to be launched at max speed. 44Man who I respect says he has to drive them about 1300 FPS in order to hit well. Also what Felix said is very true.


I think I'm getting enough speed for the bullet but I don't know.
What powder and whats your best guess at the speed of the bullet ??

[Bignutt]

W 296 and have chronographed them at 1200-1250. just run out of barrel to get more speed ,think I'm already at max on the load.

[44man]

W 296 and have chronographed them at 1200-1250. just run out of barrel to get more speed ,think I'm already at max on the load.
That is not enough. Use a lighter boolit. It is not the porting, it is the barrel length. I get into many arguments about twist where a short barrel will spin a boolit up because the rate is the same but your velocity loss will lose spin. Some also say a slow powder in a short barrel will work and give the best velocity---true, but still under stability because all the powder does not burn in the barrel.
I find no difference in a WLN and WFN to extreme distances of 500 meters (547 yards) and it is not true the WFN is unstable. It just needs spun up.
I will always be of the opinion that as you shorten barrels, you need to speed up the twist rate. The only thing left is to change the boolit.

[runfiverun]

you might be going subsonic at that point too.
being marginally stabilized and the buffeting of the boolit going into that zone with a big ol nose like that is enough to make them unpredictable.

[Bignutt]

Now the real problem....a longer barreled 44 or swap for a new 41 mold? o what a problem.:)

[1bluehorse]

Or as 44man says, try a lighter bullet....a mold is a lot cheaper than a longer barreled pistol...but whatever jingles your spurs..:wink:

[44man]

you might be going subsonic at that point too.
being marginally stabilized and the buffeting of the boolit going into that zone with a big ol nose like that is enough to make them unpredictable.
Very true. Need spin for the transition.
The twist, velocity and barrel length to achieve spin is ignored too much with revolvers.
Many have said twist is the same no matter the length of the barrel but velocity makes spin.
Without rifling we would have nothing more then a shotgun.
Look down a short 2" or 4" barrel. The twist is almost straight. To spin a boolit needs velocity you can not reach with a heavy, long boolit.

[Tatume]

Keep in mind that sighting errors increase logarithmically with target distance and shooter age. Also, recoil plays a significant role in target accuracy at any distance. ... felix

I have never heard of a relationship associating sighting error with the log of target distance or the log of shooter age (presumably an empirical surrogate for visual acuity). Further, I am not confident that I understand the statement. Please explain.

Thanks, Tom

[44man]

I have never heard of a relationship associating sighting error with the log of target distance or the log of shooter age (presumably an empirical surrogate for visual acuity). Further, I am not confident that I understand the statement. Please explain.

Thanks, Tom
Simple. The longer the barrel the less error with the sight picture. We are in the thousandths of an inch area. One thousandths with a short barrel will move POI more then a long barrel. Can you SEE one thousandths?
Put the same rear site on a short barrel and a long barrel. One click on the short barrel will move the POI a large amount at 50 yards. The long 10-1/2" barrel will move the POI 1" per click.
Felix is correct. Recoil is also a factor, short guns rise and twist faster. The handgun POI is dependent on barrel rise. Gun weight and your strength.

[DougGuy]

Aside from the excellent advice and edumacated opinions already stated, I would suggest that you have more or less found the limitations of the combination you are shooting. A lighter boolit will likely extend the distance at which accuracy begins to degrade, but another .44 with a longer barrel would be a more practical solution ballistics wise if not money wise.

[felix]

What we call light, sourced or reflected, degrades as at least according to a quadradic function of the distance between two points. At least is used here because time enters the equation as well because of movement between initiator and receiver. ... felix

You shoot at a virtual image, the image you see at the point of the gun. The physical images (gun and target) remain stationary in their locations. Typical BR GROUP shooters could care less where the physical target is because they cannot see it. The expert shooters mentally calculate where the physical target really is and make shooting adjustments per shot. ... felix

[Lloyd Smale]

alot of wfns and ill say even most just dont fly well. Ive seen them on film at the linebaugh seminars take off like they were hit with a tennis racket at a 100 yards and ive seen them fly into the next county myself shooting rocks at long range. Im sure you might find one that flys as i know 44man has but there rare as hens teeth. If you really want accuracy past 75 yards go with a lfn design. Nice thing is there usually even easier to get real good accuracy out of at 25 and 50 yards. As to barrel lenght effecting it, why then can I bust rocks at 600 yards with a lfn out of a 500 linebaugh. My buddy won both the 475 and 500 linebaugh long range shoots and i won the 44 mag class using barrels no longer then 6 inch and this was up against some of the finest sixgun shooters your going to find in a group anywhere. You need to push them as fast as your gun will accurately shoot them. Ive also watched bob mulden (spelling) bust rocks at 200 yards with a J frame smith 2 inch 38

[Engineer1911]

Keep in mind that sighting errors increase logarithmly with target distance and shooter age. Also, recoil plays a significant role in target accuracy at any distance. ... felix

Having enjoyed the frustration of engineering mathematics a long time ago, I suggest the sighting errors grow exponentially -- just like earthquakes on the Richter scale.

Everybody had to start some where with Post #1.

[45 2.1]

There is an old adage......... Aim small, Hit small. Works for me and I recommend it.

[felix]

Absolutely, Bob, zero doubt! However, what you see is what you get, so make sure what you see is real.

You cannot imagine the distortion of vision at one mile, for example. Snipers have learned years ago that a second person is required to "spot" the round hitting in the vicinity. Wide angle glasses as opposed to narrow vision gun scopes. We sometimes have guys on the board saying they missed the paper and have no idea where the boolit landed. Why? Because they practice by sighting the gun in, instead of sighting the sights in. The gun (system) is always going to shoot its shots on its own merits no matter what. The sighting (system) is the compensator. ... felix

[44man]

Lloyd, a match to twist is why. Growing up with revolvers never made me think 100 yards was far and I was shooting over 400 yards in 1956. I even made shots over 500 now and then.
I have seen boolits turn sideways at 50 yards or veer off course in penetration tests. They were ALWAYS too long and heavy for the twist.
Meplat size will not change anything but length will. Engraved length on a boolit is important. That is where velocity comes in, you can't shoot a long boolit slow. As you speed up twist, the velocity can be reduced for a given boolit.
A lighter boolit can be worked from too slow a spin, to a good rpm range and then too much spin. But a long boolit might not be shot fast enough and you max out.
Any boolit that transitions between super sonic and sub sonic and goes crazy means it was not spun up enough at the start. Shoot an accurate load sub sonic from the start and it will remain stable and so will a super sonic boolit that remains super sonic longer. The basis for our new sniper rifles that do not transition at close ranges. Enough spin will keep the boolit stable at transition.
Short barrels can be accurate as all get out with the right boolit. I use longer barrels with heavy boolits because I can spin them up.

[44man]

Absolutely, Bob, zero doubt! However, what you see is what you get, so make sure what you see is real.

You cannot imagine the distortion of vision at one mile, for example. Snipers have learned years ago that a second person is required to "spot" the round hitting in the vicinity. Wide angle glasses as opposed to narrow vision gun scopes. We sometimes have guys on the board saying they missed the paper and have no idea where the boolit landed. Why? Because they practice by sighting the gun in, instead of sighting the sights in. The gun (system) is always going to shoot its shots on its own merits no matter what. The sighting (system) is the compensator. ... felix
Another fact that escapes shooters. Remember my test with a scope mounted solid to a bench and sighted dead on target at 200 yards in the morning? The cross hairs went left to the sun as it rose and went up high and around the target, then right as the sun went across the sky, then lower to eventually come back to center at sunset.
The long range target is not where you see it.
Shoot at a fish in water with a bow. It is NOT where you see it. Refraction in air does the same, just not as much.
The reason I hit at long range with the revolvers was because I had a spotter.
Wind is another thing to add. I remember shooting at another ram to hit the one I was shooing at.

[jasent]

alot of wfns and ill say even most just dont fly well. Ive seen them on film at the linebaugh seminars take off like they were hit with a tennis racket at a 100 yards and ive seen them fly into the next county myself shooting rocks at long range. Im sure you might find one that flys as i know 44man has but there rare as hens teeth. If you really want accuracy past 75 yards go with a lfn design. Nice thing is there usually even easier to get real good accuracy out of at 25 and 50 yards. As to barrel lenght effecting it, why then can I bust rocks at 600 yards with a lfn out of a 500 linebaugh. My buddy won both the 475 and 500 linebaugh long range shoots and i won the 44 mag class using barrels no longer then 6 inch and this was up against some of the finest sixgun shooters your going to find in a group anywhere. You need to push them as fast as your gun will accurately shoot them. Ive also watched bob mulden (spelling) bust rocks at 200 yards with a J frame smith 2 inch 38

skill level. Longer the barrel the more forgiving minor errors. Its geometry

[felix]

Jasent, it is always skill level. Skill is defined here as interpretation followed by performance. Some folks handle the interpretation (goal) well, and others manipulate the performance (objective) well for any one instance. Having both attributes together in one person is rare at any one time for an immediate response. Some days I shoot good, and other days I just waste time and money. Pride gets in the way most often and clouds the issue until the ammo runs out. ... felix

[Lloyd Smale]

a long barrel shakes just as much as short one and no barrel length makes up for poor shooting. A guy that can shoot can shoot no matter what the barrel lenght is. 90 percent of it is trigger control. A long barrel can give the illusion that the sights are actually moving around more and make it more difficult to break the trigger at the proper time. Bottom line is not everyone shoots a longer barrel better then a short.
skill level. Longer the barrel the more forgiving minor errors. Its geometry