40 S & W cast bullet hardness?

[mookiie]

I am new to casting and have been casting mostly 22 cal. Linotype bullets. I have some pure lead as well. I want to do some 40 cal S & W next. What type of hardness shoud I be shooting for? I was planning to do a 50 % linotype and 50 % lead mix. Does anyone have and advice or suggestions?
Thanks!

[runfiverun]

i'd use that 50-50 mix for the 22 boolits.
and then cut it again with the pure for the 40.

[jimgun]

I've been wondering the same thing about 45 acp loads. so a non hardened, 66:33% or 75:25% pure:WW mix, lubed with bens red, with velocities in the 800-900 fps range, should show good expansion with no leading? if this will work in a 45 acp, it will work in your 40 sw also

[9.3X62AL]

My thinking on the 45 ACP vs. 40 S&W is that they are VERY different animals in my experience.

Most 45 ACPs are quite lead-friendly, operate at relatively low pressures like the 38 Special, and have appropriate twist rates (normally 1-16") that work well with air-cooled wheelweight metal or an alloy a mite harder.

The 40 S&W operates at pressures roughly twice that of the 45 ACP or 38 Special. Their rifling twists are often very fast for their bullet lengths--4 turns per meter or 1-10". In essence, their internal ballistic environment is more like that of a rifle than that of many handguns. Using that rationale, I treat the 40 S&W (and 9mm Luger and 10mm Auto) as if they are rifles. I use 92/6/2 alloy, which is half Lino and half lead--size to match or just exceed throat diameter, and assure that over-tight case necks aren't reducing the diameters of seated bullets. FWIW, I use a .398 expander spud on .401-sized boolits in my three 40 S&W pistols, all of which have throats between .400" and .4006". I apply a taper crimp AFTER the boolits are fully seated and as a distinct & discrete die step. That last bit is a regimen I follow with ALL autopistol reloads.

[ku4hx]

Your 50/50 mix will give you 92% Lead, 2% Tin, 6% Antimony. That mirrors commercial "Hard Ball" alloy and is plenty hard for your 40. My experience with the 40 is you don't really need that hard an alloy if you size and lube the boolit correctly.

I just love the sight of a well filled-out boolit so I tend to use a bit more Tin that others might. I like as close to 1.5% Tin as I can get and that's closer to 65/35 Lead to Linotype metal.

[NSP64]

I water drop COWW and size .4015. No problems leading in my 40.

[popper]

Whatever gets you to ~2% Sb or Sb >=Sn. Both my 40s are 1:16.

[harley45]

I water drop my 10mm Wheelweight boolits and size to .402 no leading with velocities from 800-1200FPS

[mookiie]

Harley45 - what is water dropping? I am guessing you drop the bullets from the mold right into some water? If this is the case why do you do that? What does water dropping do as opposed to air cooling?

Runfiverun - what hardness should I be using for 223 bullets? Would a 1 part lead 2 parts linotype be best?

Anyone else feel free to chime in!

[9.3X62AL]

Mook--

As far as 223 goes, I've run the RCBS 22-55-SP to 1900 FPS in a Ruger 77RC with some decent results using 92/6/2. I have some Lino boolits set to try with the same powder weights to give an "alloy vs. alloy" shoot-out shortly. I'll report my findings, and re-shoot the 92/6/2 boolits as well--this time scaled to within 1/2 of 1% weight variance just like the Lino boolits have been handled. Give me about 2 weeks to shoot & crunch the data.

If I had to venture a guess......the scaling will have a better effect on both metals' results than will the alloys' makeup. This rifle has a 1-9" twist. Also pending is some cast boolit work with a newly-barrelled 22-250 with 1-12" twist. Lots of range playtime on the horizon.

[NSP64]

Water dropping will make the boolits harder than letting them air cool. Use a bucket with cold water, drape an edge of a t-shirt over half the bucket opening. Put the t-shirt into the water. Drop boolits onto the submerged t-shirt, allowing them to roll down the shirt and off. This will keep splashing down and prevent flat spots (caused by boolits hitting each other and the bottom of bucket). Cast, size, lube on monday load on friday, shoot whenever you want.

[mookiie]

Thanks NSP34.

I will try 92/6/2 and let you know how it works out for me! I still need to slug my barrel first. Thanks everyone!

[Harter66]

My 40 likes 50/50 COWW/1-20 water cooled .

[mookiie]

My 40 likes 50/50 COWW/1-20 water cooled .

I am new to casting, could you explain this?

[MBuechle]

COWW is clip on wheel weight, 20-1 is 20 parts pre lead to 1 part tin. In my .40 I use about this same thing. I air cool the Hollow points and they mushroom perfectly. WFN plinkers I water drop this same alloy. Air cooled, I get some light leading in both .40 & 9mm. As was previously mentioned, case swaging is an issue with an alloy this soft. I made custom powder funnels for my 550B for both 9 & .40. My .40 is .399". 9.3X62AL's description of lead loading practice for the .40 is spot on and I advise you to follow it to the letter if you want quick success here. If you use water dropped wheel weight, you should have no lead issues with the .40. Wheel weight is about 2-3% Sb along with a little As (Arsenic). The As greatly enhances the Pb/Sb response to water quenching. Pb without Sb will not respond to quenching. This is called precipitation heat treating and requires aging after quenching to reach full hardness. About 48hrs. IIRC.

[MtGun44]

Water dropping is unlikely to be necessary. Hardness is massively overrated.

+1 on runfiverun's comments. WORST case use the 50-50 for the .40.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

Hardness is massively overrated.

Agreed, in terms of pressure containment and leading prevention. Where I've seen harder alloys (like 92/6/2 or 90/5/5) with BHn of 14-15 also benefit autopistol performance is the harder metals' smoother transition up feedramps. Softer alloys can "stick" more readily than harder boolits tend to do. A long-gone S&W 459 refused to feed Speer 125 grain RN swaged boolits, but harder-cast TCs and RNs fed like water down a drainpipe. Harder boolit alloy IN NO WAY relieves a reloader of the need to SIZE BOOLITS PROPERLY. All of my 9mm pistols run .357" boolits very well.

[NSP64]

I water drop for the convenience of being able to inspect, size boolits almost immediately.
I water drop almost everything. Rifle, pistol, shotgun.
Never have leading issues with a properly sized/lubed boolit.
I do air cool 75 pure/25 COWW boolits for hunting, But only make 12 or so a Year.

[captaint]

I don't know. I shoot almost exclusively pistols, with the exception of my 38-55 rifle, which I do not hot rod. I just can't, for the life of me, justify going to the trouble of water quenching any of my boolits. Simply can't find the need. My .02. Mike PS - I shoot lots of 45ACP, 9mm, 38 Spl and 44Spl and.357 mag. I do use gas checks when necessary - which means not very often. I did, when learning the 9mm, have some leading problems, but that was diameter related, not boolit hardness related. Most of my alloys (except the 9mm) are 50/50 - clip on WW's and softer lead, with a little tin for fillout and happiness.

[Harter66]

I'm a lil' slow here I guess . I chose to water drop them as the XD40 tumbled w/coww/1-20 75/25 air cooled.

[MtGun44]

Good point Al. I think the only situation I have wanted harder would be an extremely soft cast
HP with a very large cavity. You can see the deformation from hitting the feed ramp. For solids,
I have never had a concern - so far.

Bill

[Michael J. Spangler]

What are you guys using for powder in the 40?

I have loaded some with titegroup and moved to universal. Figuring a slower powder might help reduce leading.

I was wrong. Still have bad leading. I'm sizing over bore. Running target loads and using carnuba red. All this with no luck. I have been using air cooled COWW. I guess I should hear treat some to see if that helps?

[Harter66]

Unique for me. 401-175 TLSWC Lee. 5.7gr Max load . It's the only horse in the stable that'll run full tilt and have good accuracy,it actually improved as I reached the max. Tweeked Darrs lube ,50/50 COWW/1-20 water dropped.

[MBuechle]

Power Pistol has worked very well for me.

[Oreo]

WSF is a lot like Unique but newer, cleaner, and meters better.

[Any Cal.]

I get far less leading using water dropped vs. air cooled in .40 cal. The water dropped did take out much of the lead from the air cooled though. Currently using Tac1, which reduced the leading even more, but am running them really hot, so can't complain about the small amount I still get.

[treadwm]

WSF is a lot like Unique but newer, cleaner, and meters better.

+1
Has worked very well in my 9mm

[9.3X62AL]

I've used a number of powders in the 40 S&W with castings, ranging in speed from WW-231 to Alliant Blue Dot. I can't say that any of these provide an accuracy edge or a leading benefit--I get no appreciable leading in this caliber. Same goes for 9mm, as long as boolits are sized to throat diameter or larger. 9mm and 40 S&W are very close cousins, with the 40 having far less variance in throat and groove diameters than its smaller relative. I should caution here that I only use conventional lube-groove boolit designs, and either Javelina Alox or Carnuaba Red lubes dispensed in a Lyman 450/4500. I have zero experience tumble-lubing for these calibers, or any others for that matter. The performance of flood-lubed Speer swaged bullets in 9mm was not impressive for me. I don't recall trying the Hornady swaged bullets in 9mm, though their powder-coated HBWCs did quite well to 800 FPS in 38 Special and 357 Magnum. To sum up......I like conventional lubes in conventional grooves for my cast boolit shooting. That's no slight to the many adherents of Lee and their Liquid Alox/tumble-lubing. I started casting years prior to that system's development and commercial appearance.

[fcvan]

What Al said. I started out shooting 9mm cast from range scrap that was from a range that only saw 38 Spcl factory wadcutters. Cast and sized to .358 lubed with Javalina, with 5 grains of Unique was the order of the day. When I started loading 40 S&W, I cast from range scrap, lubed with BAC at .401 over 5 grains of Unique behaved like shooting 45 ACP. This was before I read that lead makes Glocks self destruct. I'm still waiting, it just doesn't seem to be a problem. (Myth busted?)

Nowadays, I'm still loading and sizing the same for both calibers except I'm using White Label BAC. Whereas many folks recommend WW alloy or better, I've been very successful with range scrap. I don't own any TL molds and probably won't unless one was given to me.