An example how powder packs in a powder measure during reloading

[Down South]

I thought that I would share this. I was in the process of loading several hundred rounds of 45 acp. I started out with a full powder measure and when it got down to about 1/3 full, I topped off the powder measure. If you look at the photo below, you can see how the powder below where I added is packed down.
I wanted to show this as a warning to check powder weights every so often during your loading process. Once the powder packs like this, it can change my powder weight by about plus 1 to1-1/2 tenths of a grain.

I wanted to draw an arrow to what I wanted to show some of you but hopefully, you can see what I'm talking about. My photo software doesn't have the ability to draw.

The powder is a ball powder, Winchester WSF.

[44Vaquero]

This picture makes an excellent argument for installing powder baffles in your measures. As a general rule I never fill my measure much past 1/3 just for the reason you have illustrated. On a side bar, look at the older powder measures none had very deep reservoir.

[hickfu]

Yes a very distinct line there.... I never use a powder throw (measure each one out on a scale) I only load rifle rounds so they are done slow. I will get into pistol rounds at some point and this is good to know.


Doc

[Down South]

Yes a very distinct line there.... I never use a powder throw (measure each one out on a scale) I only load rifle rounds so they are done slow. I will get into pistol rounds at some point and this is good to know.


Doc
I measure all of my rifle loads on a scale too. I just load a lot more handgun than rifle. I have at least 6 of the Dillon power measures set up on quick change stations.

[Mk42gunner]

Very apparant difference in density there. How many rounds loaded does it take to setlle the top portion to match the lower?

I admit it has been close to twenty years since I loaded frequently on a Dillon; but I don't remember seeing that obvious of a difference.

Robert

[doctorggg]

I saw the same result today in my Hornady LNL progressive press. I was loading 2.7 grains of Bullseye and it jumped to 3.4 for 38 spl 148 gr wadcutters. Good thing I was weighing about every 10-15 round. Down south I am very glad you pointed this out.

[retread]

Thanks for the post. I have always wondered about the variance possible when the powder level drops, so I operate in the 1/4 to 1/2 full range and just have to add powder more frequently. I seem to get real consistent loads no matter how many I load in a session. My Dillon measures do have the deflectors in the bottom which is supposed to help but I still take the extra precaution in my fill level.

[rockshooter]

I just put a widemouth narrow tip funnel in the top of the measure. The bottom third is directly in the measure and the pressure of the rest is borne by the funnel. Does the same thing as a baffle and is easier to add powder to.
Loren

[Bzcraig]

Great pic and post for us newer loaders. The line is very obvious and I would never have thought about it on my own. Thanks Down!

[btroj]

Biggest area of fault Lorain just dumping powder in and setting the bar without settling the powder.
On a regular measure I rapidly throw 10 charges with lots of handle tapping to settle the powder, then I adjust for weight.

On the Dillon I add powder, then operate the press handle up and down banging it a few times at each end of the stroke. Again, this helps settle the powder like when the press is in use. Then I begin to set the measure.

[jonp]

A picture is worth a thousand words. Thanks for this reminder. Up till now I just weigh each load as I go because I don't shoot that many at a time and enjoy tinkering with the charge, seating depth, etc every 10 or so rounds. When I get one I will keep this in mind and be very careful of this.

[Case Stuffer]

I wanted to draw an arrow to what I wanted to show some of you but hopefully, you can see what I'm talking about. My photo software doesn't have the ability to draw.


Even Paint a MS Utility which comes in all versions of Windows will handle simple tasks such as that.

As others have posted install a baffel , tap / viberate power down , maintain a fairly limited column range.



Charles

[ku4hx]

Refill, resettle (tap, tap, tap, tap .....) and recheck the charge weight.

[44man]

A measure on a press gets a lot of jiggling and banging and the picture is worth a thousand words.

[white eagle]

been using a thrower for years never saw that before thanks for the pic

[DougGuy]

Powder density in the hopper is a variable that needs to be kept as a running sense of awareness while you go through your various loading sequences. In a progressive press, as Down South notes, the cycling of the press settles the powder and any change in the height of the powder column reflects immediately to the density of the charge in the measuring chamber.

I think it's not so important to use a vibrator or other means of settling the powder, as it is to keep immediate attention to every stroke of the press. If you have to stop and take out a case to weight it, and it changes the rhythm of the press, it will affect the charge weight of at least the next case in line to be charged, so that case is then suspect as being slightly proud in weight. You kinda get a feel for the noises and banging and you incorporate tapping the handle at the upstroke, and you find what makes your operation the most consistent and you stick with it. Any variation of that needs to be weighed, visually checked, etc.

Great pic, I run my Dillon with the bottom 1/3rd filled and I refill when it drops 2 inches and it does have a baffle in it. The funnel seems like an interesting idea that may cause the powder in the hopper below it to be consistent no matter how much is in the funnel. Will definitely try that.

[10mmShooter]

I've reloaded on my 650 and have 6 powder measures...never seen that happen before ??

[subsonic]

I have never noticed that, but I usually do not load in large volumes and my Uniflow has a baffle.

Thanks for showing.

[41 mag fan]

Had that happen last year in my Hornady LNL powder measure. Noticed when loading 45acp's it all of a sudden changed. Was charging using 4.7gr BE, and it went to 5.0, 5.something, then way down to 3.something, on the loads I checked.
Got to looking and seen the powder packed in but mine was lower on the reservoir.
Added the powder baffle and the problem went away. Now I always use the baffle no matter what powder I have in it.
Good pic though

[41 mag fan]

Had that happen last year in my Hornady LNL powder measure. Noticed when loading 45acp's it all of a sudden changed. Was charging using 4.7gr BE, and it went to 5.0, 5.something, then way down to 3.something, on the loads I checked.
Got to looking and seen the powder packed in but mine was lower on the reservoir.
Added the powder baffle and the problem went away. Now I always use the baffle no matter what powder I have in it.
Good pic though

[Jack Stanley]

Neither of my measues has a baffle but I learned a long time ago to make sure the powder is settled in the measure before trying to set a charge weight . With powders like Unique it takes a lot of tapping a cycling the measure to settle it in but it does settle in to where it's useable and safe . In use I normally don't let the powder level fall below half and with light fluffy powder it takes a lot of cycles to bring the added powder where it's being measured .

I think the lesson to me learned here is be consistant and watch for details . Great thread guys !

Jack

[ftut]

I just bought a baffel for my rcbs drop. Great thread.

[Bloodman14]

Down South, just how big is that hopper, and how does it compare to a Lee Auto-Disk hopper on a progressive press like my Pro-1000? Having never seen this phenomenon, is it a concern for smaller hoppers?
Thanks.

[wrench man]

I've noticed that it takes about ten throws to settle the charge on my Dillon, but once it settles it seems good to go!?, firm, positive, CONSISTENT operation is the key to equal thrown powder charges, and the Dillon's have the baffle built right into the hopper tube.

[plainsman456]

I just throw several charges after refilling the hopper.


Then i weight the next few to make sure they are where i want them to be.

[Down South]

Down South, just how big is that hopper, and how does it compare to a Lee Auto-Disk hopper on a progressive press like my Pro-1000? Having never seen this phenomenon, is it a concern for smaller hoppers?
Thanks.
I have both but only one Lee Auto-Disk. The measure in my picture is a Dillon that is standard for several Dillon machines (I believe). Can't be sure since I only have two Dillon model RL 550-B's.
To answer your question, the Dillon is about twice as tall but about the same diameter, maybe just a tad larger in diameter than the Lee. I'm going by guesstimation since I'm too lazy to go outside and actually measure both brands of powder measures.


To address a few other replies:
As many have already said, a baffle helps with this problem and all of my Dillon measures have the baffle. I have 6 of them.
I pre-pack the measure by making 10 or more powder dumps and returning the powder back to the measure after every throw. I shake, bump, wiggle and simulate going through a full reloading stage several times before I ever start checking powder weight. Then I check weight about every 10 rounds until I'm satisfied with getting consistent charge weights.
Packing like what happens in the picture takes place during several hundred rounds going through the machine. I loaded 600 rounds in this session but that included topping off as well.
As I stated earlier, I started off with a full measure full. I had loaded and used about two thirds of the powder in the measure when I topped it off.
The top 2/3 of powder that I topped off with was tapped a few times.

One point that I want to make is even though the measure has a baffle in it, packing appears to affect the powder below the baffle. Some may argue about this and some powders will react differently.

I started out loading 6.8-6.9 gr in this session and stayed in that powder weight window well into the loading session. Towards the end when the measure was down to the 1/3 mark, I was seeing a consistent 6.9-7.0 gr, when checking charge weight. I know all powder measures vary +- .1 gr or more depending on powder type. WSF meters very well and most weight tests came out perfect.
I realize that .1 gr is not much and most of the time is not to be worried about unless you are at the top of a load. This could be more severe depending on the powder type.

Correct me if I am wrong, I've been wrong before. It seems to me even though the measure has a baffle in it, packing does affect the powder below the baffle to some degree.

[snuffy]

First look at that pic, I said; That can't be the same powder.:???:[smilie=1:

I had just finished loading 100 9mm with WW-231. The dillon measure,(650), was down to 2/3 empty. I just went and poured it nearly full. I could clearly see a definite line where the powder had been added. I think it's simply that the ball powder disks align along the wall of the tube as the vibration happens as the press is cycled.

As for the powder compacting toward the bottom, the dillon baffle is SUPPOSED to stop that. The powder has to flow around that baffle to get at the metering bar.

My experience has been the oposite from what has been said here. My charges go lighter as the powder supply drops in the measure. Less weight, less powder in the charge bar.

[Floydster]

Rock shooter, I like the funnel idea, am going to try it.
Thanks.
Smokeyloads

[boltaction308]

Thanks for sharing this picture. I just got a bunch of WSF that I plan on using for 9mm. Really good to know about this before hand.

If anyone has any pictures of how they added baffles to a powder measurer, I would like to see them.

[cwheel]

Great pics of the powder settleing. I just finished a run of 9000 45 acp's on my dillon 550b. I had the same problem at first until I settled into this practice. Fill the powder hopper at the start of the loading session. Throw at least 12 charges of powder before starting to weigh the charges, usualy, unless very humid, charges settled out after the first 12 charges. I noticed that if I kept the powder hopper half or more full, charges would remain right on the money. Never let the hopper fall below half, and recheck after stopping for more than a couple of hours. Always throw the dozen charges after refilling the hopper to settle it out or when resuming loading the next day. My powder in this run was 6gr. of Unique under a 225 gr lee round nose. I've noticed this isn't just a Dillon 550 thing, the same thing happens when loading with my RCBS Uniflow, smaller hopper but it still packs up and needs a few charges thrown at the start to get consistant powder throws. Different powders do the same, some more, some less, but you can always see differences in the first 12 or more powder charges of the day, or after refilling.
Chris

[dale2242]

It is not uncommon to have .1 gr variances with extruded powder in a powder measure. Ball powders do not typically do that.
I`ve been looking at your pic for some time, and I have one question.
Was the powder you added from the same container as the powder in the bottom of the measure? Or the same lot? I have seen powder have a slightly different color, lot to lot.
I`m not doubting what you are saying. Just a thought.
I have found powders from different lots may also have different densities.....dale

[Down South]

It is not uncommon to have .1 gr variances with extruded powder in a powder measure. Ball powders do not typically do that.
I`ve been looking at your pic for some time, and I have one question.
Was the powder you added from the same container as the powder in the bottom of the measure? Or the same lot? I have seen powder have a slightly different color, lot to lot.
I`m not doubting what you are saying. Just a thought.
I have found powders from different lots may also have different densities.....dale
Yes, same jug, same day.

[Shiloh]

This picture makes an excellent argument for installing powder baffles in your measures. As a general rule I never fill my measure much past 1/3 just for the reason you have illustrated. On a side bar, look at the older powder measures none had very deep reservoir.

Absolutely correct on all your points Vaquero. One third to half full for me.

Shiloh

[45-70 Chevroner]

I live in a some what dry area of northern Arizona. I think humidity plays a factor in the problem. I have two RL 550s and a square deal they all have baffels. I have never had a problem with powder veriation when loading pistol ammo, I double check weights about every 15 rounds.

[Harter66]

Boltaction
Here's mine in the pistol use Uni-flo. It wanders a little seldom over .1gr . I run 10-15 drops into the trickler when loading accuracy/hunting loads then 5 as i would for loading then scale the next 3 . Rechecking the 10th drop when its for serious plinking/stores and 25 for just shoot-em'-ups. At charges of 4,5,6, 7,8 gr of Unique it takes a loonngg time to get the half pound hopper down by half . When I'm on the long haul for rifles and large loads I use the funnel method but I've found those stay pretty close if the hopper is kept between 1 and 2/3 of capacity. Then again I scale those every 1so its little matter beyond how many trickler turns.
71136

[jsheyn]

My buddy was making fun of my old Ideal #55 becuase it a had a powder knocker....I think he'll change his tune now :)

[snuffy]

One example of how much powder will pack is once I was cycling my Hornady/Pacific 366 progressive shotshell with the powder and shot shut off. This cases the bar to move, but the valves were closed. The first charge after I had finished putting more crimp radius on 25 shells that weren't cycling through my Beretta, was a very high pressure load!

I only noticed it upon firing. Obvious it was NOT the skeet load I had just loaded. I thought somebody had slipped me a mickey ,(favorite trick of a few of my fellow club members), but it was one of my STS empties with obvious pressure signs. It was supposed to be 1 oz. of #9's, and 17.5 grains of nitro 100. No way for the 366 to double charge without also dumping shot twice! That is all too obvious, and takes 20 minutes to clean up, usually involving taking the shell plate off to get the shot out from under it.

A couple of days of thinking when into it before I had the suspicion that the powder charge had settled with all that cycling. A test with it shut off again 10 times, then weighing the first charge netted me 21.0 grains, a field load at least! N-100 is a very fast burning powder, there's just no data for field loads. I'm sure 25 cycles added more weight, but how much more? Another thing, the bar/bushing type measures tend to "cut through" the powder stack in the measure. I'm sure some of the flakes were cut as well, increasing burn rate.

I throw back the first load on my dillon 650 measure if the powder is left sitting in the hopper. Just "because" of the preceding experience.

Hornady and Mec recommend different powder bushing for progressive and single stage shotshell loaders. Single stage machines pack powder into the bushings each time the loader moves from one station to the next. Progressives only cycle once for each shell. When setting up a new powder for my 600 JR. mec, I cycle the loader to solid stops 4 times before test charging a shell, then weighing the charge. Failure to do that results in too light of a charge.

[Coug91]

Powder baffles serve the purpose of promoting uniform powder flow into the measuring chamber.

[prs]

Unique packs easily and 231 seems far more resistant. I reallly like that funnel idea and will get a small funnel with a long snout to set into my Lee hopper so that the hopper fill be about 1/3 or a tad more consisently. May save me from having to tap the hopper before each charge.

prs

[prs]

I did it. I took the red plastic Lee case charging funnel and trimmed off the top flange. Used a corner of that trimmed off scrap to glue onto the funnel's exit to block it, then trimmed and polished that. Drilled a 9mm hole through the funnels "snout" just above that plastic cap I glued on. Trimmed the upper end of the funnel's diameter to where it just did NOT fall into my Lee Pro-Auto powder measure hopper, but to where it would fit inside the hopper's lid. So I now have a funnel and baffle all in one and in plastic to match the hopper. Don't know if it works, never really had a problem anyway, just seemed like a neat quickie project. Will get some primers one of these days and try it (actually I do have some stash, just reluctant to use any of it in case we decide to rebel again). ;-)

prs

[fredj338]

This is very common. If you walk away from your measure for even 10min, the powder is going to start settling. So it's always wise to throw back 3-4 charges to get things back on track.

[Cadillo]

I've been loading with a Dillon 550 since 1986. My powder has always looked like that with NO ill effects. That's because I top off the measure each time I load a hundred primers. The trick is to never let the powder level get below 3/4 full. Also, I've just added one of the UniqueTek powder baffels, and it seems to bring my individual charge weights even closer, to just about equal, this on a scale that measures to 1/100th of a grain, though I suspect the tolerance is closer to 1/10th. Using 231 Ball, my Dillon Measure gives up nothing to my Redding or Harrel measures.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I have yet to find a powder measure that would through perfect weights. 1 to 1 and 1/2 tents grains is not a problem in my book, unless I am shooting max loads. I read an artical by Bob Melek in guns and ammo back in the late 1980's He has since passed away. He did a test with weighed powder loads and powder measure loads. The test was done with the 223 cartridge. After the test he found that the powder measure loads shot better than the weighed loads.

[BAGTIC]

Most any aggregate will segregate when subjected to vibration. Wouldn't be surprised if powder in a jug would also segregate. Some of what we see may be due to the first filling coming from the upper layer of the jug and the refill coming from farther down?