a few grains difference?

[bigted]

heya...so am wondering about something...maybe im just a dullard or cant figure stuff out proper but I have 4 different sliding style powder measures and guess what...not only do they throw different charges according to my scale but...when I weigh the charges from 1 or another scale and compare it to itself I still get up to 3 or 4 different grains difference.

so now for the real question that occurs to me...how will this 3 or 4 grains difference effect accuracy in the front stuffer?

went out and shot my Lyman today...[GPR .54 ball gun]...and had to remind myself what a hoot it really is to shoot. had measured charges to within a tenth grain and previously had shot it with the slider measures on the volume basis and ill say that today seems...[according to my sorry memorie]...to have been a more accurate session then when I put it away 4 years ago.

so the question to all front stuffers about a subject I intend on playin with on my next time off work.

what say yee?

[starmac]

I am no bench rest or target shooter by any means, but the simple measures always allowed mine to shoot at least as well as I do.
There will be some guys chime in that shoots a lot more and more accurate than I do though, I'm sure.

[smoked turkey]

Just my thoughts and experience with my own bp loads. I believe that the burn of black powder is somewhat inefficient when compared with smokeless propellant. That is why we see so much more unburned powder and the residual left in the bore after each shot than we see with smokeless. That being said I don't think a few grains either way has any large effect on velocity or accuracy. So IMO no 3 or 4 grains difference will not change things too much.

[Teddy (punchie)]

You are saying that you are getting a 3-4 grain difference in the measuring that you are using?

If that is the case something is wrong.

Unless you are talking the rods of powder some people call, grains. Some powders are from 30-40 rods to make up one grain of powder. I try to keep my loads with in a few rods if working on load, if worked up and a rifle I make them as close as can. If pistol about a 10th of a grain is Okay.

heya...so am wondering about something...maybe im just a dullard or cant figure stuff out proper but I have 4 different sliding style powder measures and guess what...not only do they throw different charges according to my scale but...when I weigh the charges from 1 or another scale and compare it to itself I still get up to 3 or 4 different grains difference.

so now for the real question that occurs to me...how will this 3 or 4 grains difference effect accuracy in the front stuffer?

went out and shot my Lyman today...[GPR .54 ball gun]...and had to remind myself what a hoot it really is to shoot. had measured charges to within a tenth grain and previously had shot it with the slider measures on the volume basis and ill say that today seems...[according to my sorry memorie]...to have been a more accurate session then when I put it away 4 years ago.

so the question to all front stuffers about a subject I intend on playin with on my next time off work.

what say yee?

[Teddy (punchie)]

Now I see your talking Black Powder, that is a whole different story.


You are saying that you are getting a 3-4 grain difference in the measuring that you are using?

If that is the case something is wrong.

Unless you are talking the rods of powder some people call, grains. Some powders are from 30-40 rods to make up one grain of powder. I try to keep my loads with in a few rods if working on load, if worked up and a rifle I make them as close as can. If pistol about a 10th of a grain is Okay.

[doctorggg]

With the amount of powder you are throwing 3-4 grains probably will work out to be a very small percentage. Say 100 grains would be roughly 3%. I don't think with BP that would cause a great deal of change in velocity.

[Nobade]

Since black powder packs very differently depending on how you fill the measure, it is easy to get a variation like that. Slow scoop, fast scoop, more or less shaking, etc. really changes things. Luckily for us it doesn't matter much. For precision long range work with a Gibbs type rifle it matters, but at the ranges a roundball gun is used it doesn't matter. Heck, the old way of cover the ball in your hand with powder still works reasonably well when you don't even have a measure.

-Nobade

[mooman76]

There is also a difference between different powders used. Brands and ff or fff and so on. It shouldn't make that much difference and yes it is common between different measures. It probably would be best to stick to the same powder measure and maybe one that is more consistant to you. I just shoot for fun so it's not a big deal to me.

[double8]

Now I have an excuse for the "fliers".......dang powder measure. [smilie=1:

[fouronesix]

I pour from a flask, spouted powder can or horn directly into a brass measure. I don't shake the measure or tap it or use one of those scrape-off funnel thingies or do anything odd. Just eyeball it to even with the top of the measure and into the muzzle it goes. There aren't too many ways to pour it differently to get different results. I checked it long ago and the differences, one pour to the next, were minimal.

[DIRT Farmer]

In a shot gun I try to remember to use the same scoop each time.

Rifle, it depends. What are you trying to do. On the line in the various events you will see every thing from weighed vials to mechanical despencers to volume mesures.
The Beval Brothers who shoot chunk guns, did an article on mesures and technicue and found that one can be very constant in the charge weight with volume mesures. Just do exactly the same thing every time.

[Hanshi]

If you have a fixed measure and your procedure for filling it is the same all the time, then it will only vary a small amount. If the measure throws a charge that gives you the performance you like, I'd not worry about it; it's working for you and your gun.

If you are a target/match shooter then ultimate accuracy is only found by weighing each charge - assuming THAT load is the most accurate.

[Whiterabbit]

I only shoot BP at 100 yards, but for ANY load I strive for robustness. I want the greatest uniformity given varying ammo. If I have a load that shoots great (not muzzleloading example here) but requires VERY specific charge weights and VERY tight OAL to ensure good results down range, then I make my job that much harder at the loading bench.

If I can find a charge that can vary by a bit (tolerance of the powder drop) but not yield changes in vertical dispersion downrange, then I make it that much EASIER to load.

Same with my muzzleloaders. I strive to find charges that do not result in large changes in POI given small changes in charge weight. It's not impossible, and it is a reasonable goal during load development. I'm pitching charges outside, in the wind, while standing, no scale.... I need all the help I can get downrange!

Anyways, it seems to work for me.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=65582&d=1364425023

(unless of course my $5 TC brass powder measure is just that good. I'm sure it is not.)

[**oneshot**]

I have never paid attention to the weight of the charges. If your shooting good groups and like above, not getting alot of stringing then the charge is good.

[bigted]

I went out and experimented with my procedure in pouring into the measure and walla ... I've found the critical system that nets me a charge to within a half...1/2...grain and many times closer then that.

I have a 45-70 spent case that throws 80 grains +- 1/2 grain and a 45-120 cut down a bit that throws 113 grains +- 1/2 grain. these two are plinking and hunting loads respectively. I really like this ball shooter and the time spent is very relaxing when I can shift into the mode and spirit of things.

the cartridge black powder shooting is much more demanding but fun but this is so much simpler and the ease is amazing. the cleanup is much faster then the encore too...so many nooks n cranny's in the mechanism and breech plug...I shoot the encore and enjoy it but the cleanup is more intense then my GPR....the Lyman is simple with the water and patch system in a bucket. then dry n oil...period. the nipple is the hardest part and that is a snap with it soaking in the bucket till the barrel is clean n dry...tooth brush the nipple...hammer face...stock and sidelock area.......oil and wipe everything...done.

anyway thanks for all the reply's I appreciate them and reap good info from all.

[fouronesix]

bigted,
That's it! I think you nailed the whole essence of traditional ML shooting and correct cleaning. Downright relaxing to me and so very simple.

I'll shoot high power Jbullet stuff but have to deal with brass prep, brass measuring, precision loading. Then shoot. Then spend and hour or two getting all the copper fouling out.

Then do the BPCR thing and have to concentrate on the loading and shooting and the brass cleaning and prep- but at least the bore cleaning is really easy.

Then I'll do the smokeless and cast thing, again concentrating on the loading and shooting- but the bore cleaning is very, very easy.

Then rotate a few weeks later back to nice, straight forward, relaxing, simple traditional muzzleloader shooting. But hey, keeps me out of trouble and the herd exercised. :)

[DIRT Farmer]

BigTed you have discovered the secrat, but don't let it go any futher. I have one modern M/Ler, but other than load workup haent shot it. I can have my flinter cleaned and on my second cup of coffee before I can get the modern gun washed let alone resembled.

[bigted]

I have struggled with accuracy issues in M/L'ers for awhile and always gone to a scaled measure of powder for getting it good to excellent. always said...'I don't get it...mountain men didn't have scales for measuring powder'...now im startin to see it. I finally did the "finger over the spout" routine and this always throws a charge that is within 3 tenths every time...AMAZING.

now I have a set of spouts coming from track to hopefully fit my old 'CVA' brass canister powder horn. im impressed and now have the confidence that my second shot will be rite on from the first...in the same fashion as scale weighed powder.

my excellent GPR ball rifle will get a work out now for sure.

I also experimented with my bottom pour pot and Lyman .530 ball mould and discovered that the dang thing doesn't even throw lead in a consistent enough fashion to cast these large balls sooo...back to my dipper as I KNOW that it will throw consistent balls.

all in all im very impressed and anxious to begin again in the ball throwing exercise. thanks again for the suggestions and I always know where to go for real and great thoughts and suggestions.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Black powder loads for muzzleloaders have a sweet spot for powder charges just like cartridge guns.

If a shooter has measures that vary between each other with consistent powder pouring techniques simply allocate certain measures for different guns. I have one only used for C & B revolvers, one for .32 and .36 rifles, etc.

The measure difference is because of the hundreds of fellows who have made them for nearly a century now and that is for modern usage. No real standard is used. Sometimes I make a non adjustable powder measure for a M/L too.

In practice, for a 58 musket I use one adjustable measure to establish a good load with a particular powder and a pure lead minie', for example, and then set the old Lyman powder measure to throw that gun's powder charges by volume to match the adjustable measure , again with consistent technique, to make cartridges, and with out regard to scale weight, although I do know it.

BvT

[waksupi]

Consistent load tamping is more important to consistent accuracy, than a few grains of powder.

[Shooter]

Consistent load tamping is more important to consistent accuracy, than a few grains of powder.

+1
Has anyone else experimented with a "KaDooty"?

[bigted]

I for 1 would be very interested in the 'kadooty' myself. I have read about them but never heard of anybody using one to report the results. it just looks...from the photo's ive seen...like a slide hammer on a range rod made of brass. is it this simple?

[Shooter]

I for 1 would be very interested in the 'kadooty' myself. I have read about them but never heard of anybody using one to report the results. it just looks...from the photo's ive seen...like a slide hammer on a range rod made of brass. is it this simple?

Nearly so. The idea is to drop the weight from the same hight on each charge.
I used one on a chunk gun for a while, it was hard to say it made a differance with open sights and shaders.
I should try it with a scoped gun to see if it makes an improvment.
It is one heck of a good ball puller.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Consistent load tamping is more important to consistent accuracy, than a few grains of powder.

Especially true with a minie' gun. The Federal CW military authorities had actual instructions issued to troops on how to properly seat a bullet and the force to be used in doing so: essentially seat smoothly and lightly tap twice.

bvT