M1 rant

[Patrick L]

For two years now my quest has been to get my M1 to shoot cast bullets. I ready to just give up on cast for that gun.

I have been shooting cast for years in my 03s with great results. These are mild 1500 fps or so loads that are easy on the gun and the shooter. Loads that shoot great in the 03 also do well in the M1, but of course as a single shot. Once I get into loads that operate the action, accuracy goes to hell.

Let me set parameters. I'm interested in loads that group about 3 inches or so at 100 yds. I know that doesn't impress many benchrest types, but I'm talking military rifles shot in positions, iron sights, at black circles, rain or shine, hot or cold. My 03 will do that easily , as will the M1 with jacketed ammo. Groups with cast bullets that operate the action often go a foot or more.

I can eliminate a few possibilities. My M1 has been glass bedded, rebarrelled, and had the front end unitized. The rifle is not at fault. As I said, with jacketed ammo it shoots tight and round. It stays that way even when it heats up. It also shoots the low velocity stuff very well, just as a single shot.

I have tried heat treating my bullets to increase hardness. I heated them to 425 degrees (the max temp my oven will reach) for two hours, then quenched. I sized and gaschecked them withind half an hour and then set them aside to harden. I was initially encouraged when a 50 yd 10 shot group printed 1 1/2 inches, but moving out to 100 opened things right back up.

Load was 35 grains of IMR 4895, which is about the bottom level I can get the rifle to function at. For comparison, most jacketed loads take 46 - 48 grains. I would really prefer to stick with this powder as it is thew powder that the M1 was designed around.

Any suggestions ?

[Maven]

Patrick L, Although I don't own a Garand, I do have a SKS Type 56, which digests and ejects CB loads quite reliably. Your post raises several questions about bbl. condition, heat-treatment and powder charge. First, have you removed all Cu fouling from the bore? Second, do you need to heat-treat your CB's? Also, if you must [heat-treat], 1 hr. @ 420 deg. will achieve the about the same BHN as 2 hrs. Moreover, size and apply gas checks before, not after heat-treatment (and lube in a slightly larger die). Lastly, the late Geo. Nonte, Jr. wrote in "Basic Handloading," "Even the M1 Garand will work well with cast-bullet loads, particularly with a bullet of about 180-grain weight and a charge of 38 to 40 grains of IMR 4895."

[Larry Gibson]

Patrick L

"Load was 35 grains of IMR 4895, which is about the bottom level I can get the rifle to function at. For comparison, most jacketed loads take 46 - 48 grains. I would really prefer to stick with this powder as it is thew powder that the M1 was designed around."

There is your trouble. ou are having to drive the bullets too fast for good accuracy. I have found with boolits of 175 to 210 gr much over 28-30 gr of 4895 will give poor accuracy but generally won't function an M1s action. First you didn't say what boolit you are using but I didn't get any good accuracy until I went with a heavy boolit and 4831 powder. I Used a Lyman 311299 cast of WWs and water quenched from the mould. I used H4831 powder. I don't remember the charge but I started at 30 gr and worked up until I got the action to function. My M1 was a rack grade in very good condition with a new barrel. I got the accuracy you are looking for at about 1950 fps.

Larry Gibson

[BruceB]

I agree with Larry (Hi, Larry, good to hear from you).

I have yet to try the 299 bullet with slow powder in my M1, but I'm sure gonna do it now!

BobS, another member on this site, has extensive experience with the Garand in matches with cast bullets. His load, which shoots very well, is 42 grains of OLD H4831 with Lyman's heavy 311284 bullet, with just a bit of tissue over the powder to immobilise it.

I found that 40 grains of IMR4831 is also good with 311284, and 38 grains of IMR 4350 works OK too, and I use a small tuft of dacron instead of tissue. These could stand to be bumped-up a little in my rifle for crisper function.

These low-pressure charges of slow-burning powders (which are NOT RECOMMENDED for the Garand in jacketed loads) allow us to start the bullet off in a less-stressful manner and, due to the slow burning rate, the gas pressure at the gasport is still sufficient to operate the action. At these pressures, the slow powders pose no risk to the rifles and can be gradually increased until ejection and function are satisfactory.

I may even try some slowburners in my new M14 when it arrives, but the positioning of the gasport and the very different gas-cutoff system will certainly lead to different conclusions than the does the Garand. What neat rifles these are!

[45 2.1]

I may even try some slowburners in my new M14 when it arrives, but the positioning of the gasport and the very different gas-cutoff system will certainly lead to different conclusions than the does the Garand. What neat rifles these are!

Bruce-
You won't have much trouble with your new toy, it will shoot cast just fine. I use the RCBS 308-165-SIL and AA3100 in my version.

[Patrick L]

Bruce, Larry, 45 2.1,

Are you shooting hardened bullets ? My normal alloy for the 1500fps loads I shoot in my 03s, as well as all handgun bullets, is WWM with about 2 % tin, and it works great for that (even with the M1 when used as a single shot.)

I had thought the problem may have been that this alloy was too soft for the increased velocity of these faster loads (the ones that do cycle the gun.) I have just started playing around with heating and quenching bullets intended for the M1, but as I reported it didn't seem to help.

Also, I have been using the Lyman 311041 for my M1 loads, but if heavier bullets are recommended I do use the SAECO 196 gr TC in my 03 loads. I thought you weren't supposed to use heavy bullets in the M1, or is that also just when we are using jacketed loads ?

[Patrick L]

Oh, sorry Larry. I just reread your post and you do drop into water!

[BruceB]

Patrick;

Yep, I quench mine right from the mould, too. My straight-wheelweight boolits are cast very hot (870 degrees, max temp for my RCBS furnace) and adding tin does nothing for me. Fillout is great. My .416 Rigby will shoot PURE lead bullets at 2000 fps without leading, as an example of how it may not be necessary to have bullets as hard as many think.

As a matter of routine, I now water-drop almost all of my rifle bullets from the mould. Only a very small percentage ever see an oven, and only for my .45-70 do I usually allow rifle bullets to air-cool. One exception to this is the very few .416 softpoints I'm casting in the last week or two, where aircooling is used.

45 2.1;

Some years back, still living in Canada, I had some cast loads which functioned fine in a pair of genuine (US issue) M-14s, but I wasn't nearly as wrapped-up (or as knowledgeable) in rifle-caliber cast bullets as I am now. It's going to be fun...if the rifle ever gets here.

[45 2.1]

Patrick-

I've used well aged wheel weights and water dropped ones with LBT blue. Very little difference for me, but wheel weights aren't a good as they used to be either.