Suggestions for 44 Mag boolits

[standles]

All:

I have just come into ownership of a nice S&W 44mag. Of course this creates a problem as I do ot have any moulds for that caliber.

Any suggestions on good moulds for this caliber/firearm? Mostly will be plinking and target practice out to 50 yards. Maybe an occasional Bowling pin match.

If any of you have moulds that are being neglected and left in dark places, all alone, and feeling uneeded for long lenghts of time I would be glad to be a foster parent for them. [smilie=1:


Thanks for your suggestions,

Steven

[sundog]

Steven, forget the moulds. Too much trouble. I'll be glad to take care of your problem, though. Just ship that gun to my FFL and I'll pick it up when it gets here. I'll even pay the freight! See problem solved.

RCBS 44-250-K
Lee 429-200-RF (6 banger - makes lots of boolits real fast)

I kinda like the Lee mould. Cast a lot and shoots pretty good. Prolly want something heavier for the pins though. SAECO make a pretty nice RF 265 grainer.

[9.3X62AL]

Before spending any folding money on molds/moulds (Bruce will have me spelling neighbour and colour like a Canadian soon), slug or pin-gauge the revolver's throats to see what is needed dimensions-wise. A number of less recent S&W 29-series revolvers have throats running .432" or larger. Most of the mass produced MOULDS (drat you spelling fascists anyway......) like Lyman or RCBS don't cast that fat. My Lyman 2-holers (#429421 and #429244) both run about .4315"-.432" with 92/6/2 alloy at 675*, and that is as fat as I can get them to cast.

My votes would go to the two designs I noted above.

[sundog]

Yep, gotta go along with Al on measuring before 'moulding'. I can also go along with his boolit selections - even though I still like the Lee 200 RF for plinking.

[Dr. A]

Yep, gotta go along with Al on measuring before 'moulding'. I can also go along with his boolit selections - even though I still like the Lee 200 RF for plinking.


And what "loade" do you use with that 200gr. RF?:roll: :-D

[Lloyd Smale]

ive got a few favorite 44 molds. The lyman 225 swcgc the rcbs 240swcgc the rcbs 250kt the lbt 280lfngc and the ballistic cast 300lfngc. If a guy doesnt want to fool with gas checks the 250kt would be a good choise.

[454PB]

Glad to see you're coming around, Al.

I've got about a dozen moulds that work great in .44 magnum (and special), but my favorites would be the Lyman 429421, 429244, 429215, Lee 310 gr. FNGC, and RCBS 250 SWC.

As always, for a new guy with limited funds, I recommend the Lee moulds to start out. I have four or five in .44 caliber, and all of them shoot well.

[MakeMineA10mm]

FWIW, if you poke around reading on sixgunner.com (or maybe it was sixguns.com?), you'll see that the S&W 29s/629s are not the heaviest-duty 44s around. I'm not criticizing that, I'm just pointing out what others with lots of experience can document. That said, the S&W 44s are my FAVORITES! I own two, and I'm not real anxious to run out and get a Ruger Redhawk or other "tank" of a revolver. I'll stick to the "Ferrari" of the 44 Magnums. I'll treat my S&Ws as recommended, shooting 95% of the time with light to medium loads, and only pushing heavy loads through occasionally, for certain circumstances (like hunting).

That said, for your particular revolver, I'd recommend the following:

Lyman 429215 (215gr SWC-GC) for a light-weight bullet. Highly accurate, and capable of being pushed at high speeds (the only time you'd actually need to fit a gas-check to the heel).

Lyman 429421 (245gr Keith SWC) or RCBS 44-250-K (250gr Keith SWC). The ultimate general-purpose 44 Spl and 44 Mag bullet. Medium weight (and the "standard" weight for this caliber) and capable of doing it all from plinking, target-shooting, to hunting.

Lyman 429640 (285gr LBT-style RNFP). Although you can get 300gr (and greater) weight bullets for shooting in the 44 Mag, recall the initial recommendation to not push S&W 44s too hard to much. This bullet weight gives you a heavy, deep-penetrating bullet with a large meplat, PLUS, displacement of the weight out of the case into the nose section (hence providing larger powder room in the case, which lowers pressures, if one sticks to reasonable velocities and lets the bullet's weight and nose shape do the work). This makes this design the ideal heavy bullet for S&W 44s.

Those are my votes, and why I made them. Hope it helps.

[Black Prince]

standles

Elmer Keith is the father of the S&W 44 magnum. He initiated the building of it and S & W gave him the very first one off the production line in appreciation. Remington made the ammo for it and ole Elmer was right in the middle of designing that too. The bullet he designed for it is probably lost now but RCBS has one that is as close as I can determine to the original and that is the 44-250-KT. Lyman had the original bullet but they have changed the moulds over the years to facilitate production. 429421 is about as close as they come to it now.

So when you get a rifle or a pistol today and you want to know something about what to shoot in it, it's always a good idea to look at what the people who designed the thing shot in it and a little about the history of the development of the firearm and the cartridge. It is not only informative, but interesting as well.

You CAN NOT take Elmer's loads and shoot them safely today because dang it, they have also CHANGED the powder he used. His load was his 250 grain bullet and 22 grains of 2400 powder. I shot that for 30 years but then Hercules Powder Company was bought by Alliant and they changed the powder. Now 21 grains can be shot in a Ruger but about 20 to 20.5 is all you want in the Model 29 if you want it to stay tight.

So do your RESEARCH BEFORE you go loading it and save yourself money on moulds and maybe some grief down the line.

All the best.

BP

[Shuz]

Been shootin' the .44 mag with cast boolits since 1963. Currently own 29ea .44 moulds of "flavors" from 173g to 350g. Over this period, the one design that has outshone them all has been Lyman's 429421. I hasten to add that one of my flavors has not been the RCBS 250KT. I just never had the opportunity to acquire one. My guess is that it will shoot every bit as good as a 429421, because it is so similar. If someone wants to trade their 2C RCBS 250KT for one of several Lyman 2c 429421's that I have, I'll be glad to try that design.--Shuz

[beagle]

Having shot the .44 Mag since the early 60s, there's no better bullet than the 429421 provided that it casts big enough. It's everything you want or probably need in the way of a .44 bullet.

I realize that this sounds opinionated but old Elmer was right that time./beagle

[standles]

Thanks for the pointers folks.

So much info..... I guess I will have to take one of each :mrgreen:


I will do a little more independent research and probably pick 2 to play with.


On reloading .. Yeah I knew the S&W was supposed to be a little weaker than the Ruger but any loads I work up I start min and do chrono and visual inspection while working up the load.

Thanks again for the leads I will let ya know what I end up with.

Steven

[MtGun44]

Put 10 gr Unique under either the RCBS 250K or 429421 cast and
sized 0.001 or 0.002" larger than the throat (front end of cylinder)
accurately measured with a machinist's pin gauge and you'll
be right there with a medium powerful load (about 1100 fps from
a 6" or 1000 fps from a 4") and usually very accurate without
pounding your gun or hand to pieces. 9 gr of Power Pistol works
extremely well, too - similar velocities, unusual accuracy.

Don't cast them too hard, either. Straight WW or even 50/50
WW- Pb will work great with ordinary commercial alox based lubes.

Bill

[44man]

I have been loading and shooting the .44 since 1956 and I can't add a thing to what the guys have said.
Well, maybe one, I shot my mod 29's with a LOT of heavy loads ( about a gr or so under max.) for years and never hurt a one of them. I kept the latches and cylinders well lubed and closed the cylinders easy. I still have some original factory loads here someplace, if you want an experience, shoot some of them! The S&W will checker your hand real pretty.
If you do what is said here and just shoot the Smith with lighter loads most of the time, you will never hurt it. It IS tougher then you think though so don't be afraid to step it up for hunting.

[Tristan]

I'll give Mtgun44's advise a second, as a great place to start; you'll very likely be quite pleased with the accuracy and recoil of a load that will "do what needs doin' " most of the time.

I wish I had that advise given me about 15 years ago when I started; would have saved me lots of time, powder and primers. ;-)

[Char-Gar]

Like others here, I have decades of 44 magnum shooting behind me and it is one fine sixgun round. I have nothing new to add, just a few comments and add ons

1) Tis true some of the older Smith DA sixguns have cylinder throats that run .432 to .434. The more current ones run tighter.

I have never found need of a bullet any larger than .432 in any of the several dozen Smith and Ruger sixguns I have owned and shot in 44 magnum. I run all my bullets through a .432 lube sizer and those a hair smaller just pick up their lube.

2) Any of the 245 to 255 grain Keith like bullets will do just fine. This includes the Lyman 429421, the RCBS 250 - K and others. My favorite is an older NEI clone of the original Keith bullet that is no longer available.

3) The very best mold I have found for the 44 Magnum is the Ray Thompson designed Lyman 429244. This is a gas check design and delivers splendid performance. For most uses a plain base bullet like the Keith types are plenty good enough.

4) There is no need for bullet any harder than about 15bhn (Lyman #2, Taracorp Magnum) in hardness. These water droped granite bullets are not needed. For loads up to 1.2K fps or so, good old air cooled wheel weight works well.

5) Under a Keith type bullet, the following loads work well for me.

5/Bullseye... This is Elmer Keiths old target load
8/Unique... A good mild load that delivers around 900 fps
10/Unique... a general purpose load that delivers 1.1 - 1.2 fps and is plenty enough gun for deer and anything smaller, and doesn't unduly stress the sixgun which is important with older Smith 29s.
21/2400... The classic 44 magnum load.

The 44 magnum has been around for a long time now, and holds no suprises. It delivers top notch accuracy over it's entire power range and has plenty of power for any use in the lower 48 states. It is always a good choice for a sixgun.

[Bass Ackward]

Steven,

I just started with the 44 last week, so I had to buy every mold known to man. :grin:

Some work better than others. Get another 44 and that pecking order will change dramatically. Just realize that every mold you see, sold today, worked for someone or sales would have dropped and it would be off the market. Even the crappy designs (defined as such because it didn't work for me without some effort) will work iffin you find the right combo between size and hardness and load and lube and gun, etc. I tell you this in case you feel you guessed wrong with what ever you purchase. :grin:

Seems that the 44 was a popular cartridge once upon a time. Now it won't kill frogs without follow-up shots.

What I am trying to tell ya is that you can use almost anything and find a classic load listed for it that worked for one or two folks. If you have my luck and don't happen to be one of that lucky group, don't be afraid to ask Professor Gun what "HE" prefers once in awhile. When I ask him, the benefits are better groups.

[standles]

Well I narrowed it down to these two:

Lyman 429215
RCBS 44-250-K

I am going to slug the throat as suggested. For a "pin check" is that the little machinist tool that you insert twist and the two pins opo out. Then lock it down and measure?

http://www.grizzly.com/products/G5656

or

http://www.grizzly.com/products/G9592

Steven

[45nut]

Seems that the 44 was a popular cartridge once upon a time. Now it won't kill frogs without follow-up shots.

.45 Colt, effectively dispatching critters big & small since 1873 [smilie=1:

[Bass Ackward]

.45 Colt, effectively dispatching critters big & small since 1873 [smilie=1:


And they still make that? Huh, and here I thought Absorbine jr was the oldest stuff out there. :grin:

[shotstring]

Well, only because no one else has mentioned it, but I have 2 molds for 44 - both 4 bangers. One is the Lyman 429421 so popular everywhere it seems. The other one I simply could not resist buying - Saeco's #429 mold. Round nose flat point traditional style bullet that seemed so right for my single action. :Fire:

Don't ask me how it casts or shoots as I had to wait almost two months to get it delivered and haven't tried it yet. Nice looking boolit though, if you like that kind of thing.

[9.3X62AL]

A pin gauge set--something I need to acquire, Buckshot likely gets tired of me borrowing his--is a set of pins often arranged in order, from .250"-.500" is the most common. Very handy as "go/no-go" gages for revolver throats and bore diameter measurements.

Just driving a soft lead slug through the throats and mic'ing the slugs is another way of doing this.

[BruceB]

Gents;

Very seldom have I seen such a reasoned, sensible, SANE discussion of a cartridge and its guns.

It's clear that those responding to this thread have a very good grasp on what the .44 Magnum cartridge is, and also a rational appreciation of its capabilities.

As one of those who were around for the birth of the .44 Magnum, and who witnessed all the gee-whiz press and foofaraw about its utter DEADLINESS on both ends, it's very nice indeed to see such knowledge and experience on display.

For my part, having driven normal-weight (250 grains +/-) .44 Magnum cast bullets through some very big animals, I have long been convinced that the heavy-weight CAST 300+ bullets are not really necessary for almost any use I can conceive. In jacketed bullets, maybe the heavies offer something, but when a standard revolver will drive cast 250s right through a bison or moose, and have them exit into cold air, what more would a man need?

In fact, the "true" .44 Magnum, with 250s running 1300 or more, isn't really needed for penetration, because slower loads also penetrate like there's no tomorrow. Still, I religiously carried the heavy loads in bear country simply because one never knows what might arise...and the higher speed does flatten the trajectory a good bit. Nowadays, like many others here, I shoot mostly lighter loads, with 250s at 1000 fps or even the 200 Lee at 800 for killing creampuffs and marshmallows....tough stuff like that.

Again, I'm very impressed with the attitudes and knowledge which is so very evident on this thread. Thanks, y'all.

[Bret4207]

You giys need to git som viragaa or somthin!!! The 44maGnam is for sissy boys and litle girl. I got a 530 Arbuckle MAGMUNM that will nock you on yer can. I buildt this her gunmyself and it is a bute. It shoots a 3/4 ownce slug at 4300 foot a se**** I'm prety sure. I aint goit a Kronygrapyet, but it is fasT. I made the barel out of a drive shft fron a UKE truck. It got rifeld in it to. I bilt the bullit muld frum a hunk of pipe. I will kill a dere or many soon. Got to find my flashlite hahahahahahha. Yer pal- Cletus Arbuckle Jr.

[Cayoot]

For a "pin check" is that the little machinist tool that you insert twist and the two pins opo out. Then lock it down and measure?

http://www.grizzly.com/products/G5656

or

http://www.grizzly.com/products/G9592

Steven

I'd like to know that too, not being an engineer (Just a simple bean counter hear), I've never heard of a pin check....do you have to slug your bore to do that?

Bary

[Sundogg1911]

you can never go wrong with a Keith in a .44 mag. I have several .44 moulds, but this seems to work for me in every application. two years I took a Doe and a button Buck with the same shot using open sights. I spined the one in front and got the lung on the button. It was lucky as Hell, (Don't tell my hunting buddys....They think i'm a good shot) They all laughed at me for hunting with cast while they were out with their super duper jacketed HP's with cool names [smilie=1: But that is also the same boolit that my Daughter knocks pins off the tabe with in a .44 special. It just plain works.

[PPpastordon]

Sundogg1911 said; "you can never go wrong with a Keith in a .44 mag."
How right you are.
Also, you can never go wrong with 8 to 10 grains of Unique burning under that boolit. If your revolver does not shoot straight enough and and fast enough to take any deer in the lower 48 (at reasonable ranges and then some) with this combo - perhaps it ain't the revolver!
Either the Lyman 429421 or the RCBS 250-K will accurately do the job from plinking velocities to velocities that say, "My hand and wrist tells me, maybe I'd better reconsider before deciding on popping another one of those!" But those loads usually involver slower powders than Unique!

[Bret4207]

No, not a telescoping gague. These are pin gauges, but there are much less expensive sets available fom other suppliers. It's basically a pin ground to a specific diameter used simply by finding the largest one that will fit a particular hole.



http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=1756772&PMT4NO=29591159

[standles]

Thanks for clearing up the pin guage question.


As for my guns bigger than your guns.......

Starting next month I get to evaluate fragment impacts against walls. I am using light gas guns pushin 1.25" diam steel ball bearings at Mach 5 to 6 [smilie=1:


Damn I love my job.

Steven

[standles]

Well I Pulled the trigger o nthe 44 mag moulds.

I ended up getting the RCBS 44-250-K and a Lyman 429215 GC version

I really appreciate all your advice and help in getting these moulds ordered.

If we were close enough I would buy you all a :drinks:



Steven

[44man]

Just about any boolit with a good meplat will take deer cleanly at almost any speed. The only reason I speed them up a little is for the longer shots, never max because accuracy is way more important. I do not believe in pushing any boolit to as fast as it can go, only to the point it will shoot an inch or so at 50 yd's. The S&W has shot many, many 1/2", 50 yd groups for me. That is the point I load to, not because it breaks the wrist.
I get a kick out of those that claim 1500 fps but I know they spray boolits past 25 yd's when 1250 fps will be a tack driver to 200 yd's.
You have to work with the boolit you choose and look for the best accuracy. If it is 1000 fps, go with it but if you need 1200 fps, the S&W will handle it just fine and even faster if needed. If you shoot all of your deer at 20 yd's, it just doesn't matter.
No matter what anyone says, accuracy is still king. When the hammer drops on my revolvers, I want the boolit to hit exactly where the sights were whether it is a tin can or a deer. There are NO just good enough loads.
Those that shoot rifles are always looking for the one hole, 100 yd group but accept a 12" group from a handgun. Work the revolver the same as you work a rifle. They can amaze you.

[felix]

Very true, 44man. What knocks most folks out when shooting pistols is the aim itself and the control of the recoil. Using a scope takes care of the aim portion, leaving the recoil portion. This is the major reason that hot pistol loads don't make it to the target. As we know, recoil control is both physical and mental. ... felix

[BruceB]

44man, pard;

[QUOTE=44man "There are NO just good enough loads."

"Those that shoot rifles are always looking for the one hole, 100 yd group but accept a 12" group from a handgun. Work the revolver the same as you work a rifle. They can amaze you." [/QUOTE]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm gonna differ with you here, on the basis that there are "horses for courses", meaning that there are vastly-different applications for handgun loads...and there ARE "just good enough" loads.

Specifically referring to the .44, I don't care one thin damn what the group is beyond about 25 yards, and am not really worried about groups even at that distance. What I REALLY want in a good (for me) .44 load is the ability to drive the bullet deeply into flesh and bone at bad-breath distance while it holds together enough for the work at hand. That doesn't make your needs for .44 loads any less-desirable for you; it's simply a difference in applications. I DON"T HUNT with my handguns, and long-distance accuracy is just not a factor.

On the larger scene of handguns in general, beyond the hunting .44, there are also plenty of applications for "just good enough" loads, and I use quite a few of them. For defensive pistol practice, where I'll often fire a complete magazine of 9mm or .45 in a second or two at VERY close range, I don't need Bullseye-grade accuracy. I need reliable function, and enough accuracy to hit an IPSC A-zone at maybe 25 yards. My practice loads do this with great ease, and are sufficiently accurate to hit that IPSC silhouette at 100 yards in the bargain.

I CAN produce loads with Bullseye accuracy, 3.4" 10-ring at 50 yards, 10-shot group, IRON sights, but I don't need that performance these days and it comes at a cost in time and detail which I'm not prepared to pay. My practice loads come off the Dillon at 300 or 400 per hour and work extremely well.

If I was indeed hunting with my .44s, I would be just as concerned with the accuracy as you, but not nearly to the same degree. My handgun hunting would STOP at 100 yards, and by preference I'd be shooting much closer than that. I've proven to myself, through formal IHMSA competition in revolver class, that a .44 revolver in MY hands is a lousy excuse for a game gun beyond 100 yards. I dislike the trajectory problems and the rapid bleeding-off of energy. I certainly enjoy long-range SHOOTING with my revolvers, but long-range handgun hunting leaves me cold.

On that basis, of course, 1/2" groups at 50 yards are meaningless. 6" at 100 with iron sights would work for me....if I ever took after a deer with a .44.

[black44hawk]

And what "loade" do you use with that 200gr. RF?:roll: :-D

A nice load is 9gr of Unique. Or even 6gr of Trailboss.

[1Shirt]

I agree with Beagle and most of the others regarding the Kieth. My mold however casts 429, and my Blackhawk runs .431, my 77/44 runs 430, and my 444 runs 431, so beagleing is the only answer unless you like cleaning lead out of tubes. .432 or .433 is for me the cure to many ills with most 44 mags. :coffee: :coffee: Also suggest that the Ranch Dog 265GC Lee is a mighty fine blt. for all three of mine, and it drops from my mold at 433. Of course as mentioned, with the cost of checks going through the roof and copper and brass being shipped to China--eh!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[44man]

Bruce, We just have different uses and needs. I don't shoot deer over 100 yd's but to be able to center a beer can at 100 yd's makes me happy, I have even done it at 200 and that is more fun to me then clanging close steel plates. I know you and a lot of others love to do it and I don't say you are wrong and you have fun, just not what I like. I am first and foremost an accuracy nut and get a bigger thrill out of one super good shot then most guys do.
We are all different and what a gun does has a different meaning to all of us.
I will never find a good enough load and will keep at it forever. That is what I enjoy and it has taught me to never look down on a good revolver. Most are better then we can shoot them. So the quest will go on. :Fire:

[cuzinbruce]

Hi,
Pin gages are not what you have linked to. They come in a set, look like 2" pieces of drill rod. Each marked with diameter, by thousandths of an inch. Mine came in a box marked with the diameters from .251 to .500. Minus, so they are just a bit undersize. That's 250 little pieces of steel rod, graduated in 1/1000's of an inch.
Use them as gages. Try the .428, then the .429, then .430, etc., until you find the largest one that will fit through the cylinder throat. Make sure the cylinder and gage are clean. You can check the gages' diameter with a micrometer.
The alternative is to slug the cylinder throat, by pounding a dead soft lead slug through it, then measuring with a micrometer. If you have a DA revolver, some disassembling will be required.
Before I found the pin gages, I tried using the inside blades of a caliper, an inside micrometer, and the Starrett inside measuring gages (a split ball that expands as you tighten it, then measure with a micrometer). None are really precise compared to the pin gages. Slugging should also be precise.
You will want to measure all cylinders as there can be differences.
Good Luck,
Bruce

[seabreeze133]

429244 and 429215. Each with 24 gr 4227, WW brass and WW primers. Sized as appropriate for the cylinder mouths. Fast and accurate. Dead deer. Dead IHMSA critters and manageable recoil. Load is kinda compressed.

:0)

Don

[Lloyd Smale]

im with 44 man. I want to know my gun will shoot into an inch a 25 yards. Even up close and personal i dont want a gun that will shoot 2 or 3 inchs away from the sights if somethings comming at me. Ill induce enough sight error myself in that situation without using a lousy load thats adding more. There isnt to many 44 swcs i havent tried and most of them extensively. If i had to pick one bullet for the 44s for everything and every gun it woud be the rcbs 240 swcgc. That bullet just plain shoots. The lyman 244 and 215s are close behind. If a guy insists on a plain based bullet the 250kt has consistantly outshot both version for the 429421 that i have especially for lighter loads. the lyman swc seems to like a little more velocity before it settles in.

[Three44s]

Strandles,

You will like the RCBS 250K ..... it's my goto bullet! And it's made much closer to Elmer's original drawings than what Lyman has morphed their 245 SWC into.

I have no experience with your other choice.

But I do have an other suggestion on a second mold.

Get the six cavity 240 gr. tumble lube by Lee ....... and awesome plinker slug and you tumble lube them and can shoot as cast!

A real chore shortener!

Three 44s