Was at the gun store last night.

[Hickory]

I was at my local gun store last evening checking on primers,Neil just got 60,000 in.
As we were shooting the bull and telling jokes as always, the door opens up and in walks a guy I'd never seen before.
The talking stops and Neil, the gun store owner, face changed to an expression I'd only seen in women who wanted nothing to do with another woman.

"What do you want?" Neil snapped at the new arrival.
The new guy got this much out of his mouth, "I need some Bullseye powder. . ."

I never seen Neil react like to anyone before, "I wouldn't sell you a box of toothpicks, if you're not going to buy a loading manual like I suggested you can leave now."
Without a word the guy turned and left.

George said "What's that all about?"
Neil still had the mean look on his face when he said, "Back before Christmas he came in here, bought a gun and a bunch of reloading stuff, press, die, powder, etc,. I told him he'd need a loading manual too. He said he didn't need one, that he could get all the loading information he needed off of the internet.
Then back in January, he brought back the Springfield DX he bought in a box, blown to pieces. With a tale of his friends gun blown up with his reloads. The DX was junk buddies revolver too."

I remember when I was getting into reloading, my mentor told me the first thing I needed was Lyman Reloading Manual and I had to read the front section at least twice before I could start reloading. And Jim, my mentor, quizzed me every day at work as to what I learned.

[btroj]

I learned from my then future father in law. He made me read the sections in a couple manuals on the various steps in reloading and really harped on the importance of head spacing. I learned the lessons well, I think I learned the important things first.

I also didn't use anywhere near max loads and reloaded a few, then shot them. Then repeated the process.

Too many new guys today want to buy a progressive and crank out "real ammo" instead of that wimpy factory stuff.

[300savage]

I like to think that I would have given the man one instead. Maybe, maybe not but that is the man I would like to be. He had the right to refuse service , he had no right to be disrespectful.

[Curlymaple42]

I learned from my then future father in law. He made me read the sections in a couple manuals on the various steps in reloading and really harped on the importance of head spacing. I learned the lessons well, I think I learned the important things first.

I also didn't use anywhere near max loads and reloaded a few, then shot them. Then repeated the process.

Too many new guys today want to buy a progressive and crank out "real ammo" instead of that wimpy factory stuff.

Same story here. I always suggest single stage too start. Dad in law and i still reload together. It really cemented our relationship, him teaching me.

[Teddy (punchie)]

Sounds like he did the best thing. Sorry to say but this guys opinion of him self and his friend must be high or maybe they are just that hard headed. After blowing the gun and still acting like he knows what he doing, is he tested action strength or what. Hey a good nick-name Action Strength Smarty or A S S , LOL he is a nut.

[Doc Highwall]

When I first started reloading the manual I used was the Lyman #45 with all the pictures of the cartridges.
It did not take much to get my interest going with all those pictures comparing one cartridge to another. The old ammunition catalogs from both Winchester and Remington with the energy and drop figures was another one to spark my interest.

Then when Sierra came out with ballistic tables in the back of their manual I was at it again studying.

[btroj]

I don't have much patience with idiots who don't understand the potential dangers they deal with when loading ammo.
I want more shooters and reloaders but I won't tolerate those who don't take safety seriously.

We need responsible shooters. Knowledgable, safe reloaders.

What we don't need is morons blowing up guns and getting hurt. That only paints us in a poor light. We have a duty to police our own ranks. People like that wouldn't last real long in some gun clubs.

[300savage]

What he did was lose a customer that had already spent a great deal of money with him. Yes if that man had bought much already it would been decent of the shop owner to have thrown in a manual. Hell if I had the guys name I would send him one. This kind of attitude between gun owners is our biggest threat as a cohesive group.

[Sensai]

I don't think the guy would use a manual if he had it. Some people just don't get it. There are folks who have to have their 38 Special "handle" 357 Magnum level loads, they have to go 90+ miles an hour on the expressway and then they have to exaggerate their "accomplishments" on the Internet. In days gone by natural selection would have taken care of it, but nowadays we protect the stupid so well that the gene pool is in severe danger of total corruption.

[Hickory]

What I've related in the OP was only part of the conversation.
Perry, one of the other guys there, knew the "blow-up reloader" and he was "one strange cookie."
Neil said that the way the laws are anymore he was afraid of getting sued over other people's irresponsibility.

Neil said that when he brought in the DX, he wanted to know if it could be fixed.
Neil said everything on it was damaged barrel burst, no slide and even the rails in the frame.

PLUS: When Neil sold him all that reloading stuff he told him he would need a scales. The guy told he had scales. turned out the be kitchen scales.
When Neil ask him how much powder he was putting in the cases, while looking at the destroyed Springfield, the guy gave Neil an odd look and said I don't know I just filled them up and put in the bullet.

[Jim]

.....PLUS: When Neil sold him all that reloading stuff he told him he would need a scales. The guy told he had scales. turned out the be kitchen scales.
When Neil ask him how much powder he was putting in the cases, while looking at the destroyed Springfield, the guy gave Neil an odd look and said I don't know I just filled them up and put in the bullet.

And he came back looking for Bullseye?!!!! :shock: :holysheep

[doctorggg]

Forrest Gump said "Stupid is as stupid does." Enough said.

[Sweetpea]

What he did was lose a customer that had already spent a great deal of money with him. Yes puff that man had bought much already it would been decent of the shop owner to have thrown in a manual. Hell if I had the guys name I would send him one. This kind of attitude between gun owners is our biggest threat as a cohesive group.

That guy wasn't a customer, he is a liability to the store and a hazard to himself and others!

[contender1]

I commend the gun shop for not selling stuff to a person like that. As noted,, there was a lot more to the story about the buyer than originally posted.
We used to own a small country store & we sold beer & wine. I've watched my mom, (and I've done it too,) often refuse to sell beer to an obviously drunk person. I've seen her call the cops when that same person left, & got into an automobile & drive off. Drunks on the road are a danger to others. Stupid folks reloading things unsafely are a danger to all gun owners thanks to the media.
If I were the shop owner,, I'd call other shops around & spread the word about the guy,, to help them avoid liability issues, as well as hopefully reducing the chances this idiot will get the stuff he needs.

[jcwit]

This kind of attitude between gun owners is our biggest threat as a cohesive group.

Not hardly! And non of us know what road previous conversations went down.

[sundog]

Sounds like this guy is a Darwin Award candidate. One can only hope that he does not procreate..., but I suppose that is highly unlikely.

[Sweetpea]

And he came back looking for Bullseye?!!!! :shock: :holysheep

Come on, Jim...

He was probably just trying to make his AR shoot with "Authority"..:kidding:

[Jim]

Come on, Jim...

He was probably just trying to make his AR shoot with "Authority"..:kidding:

Yeah, buddy! Just fill that boy up with Bullseye. It'll be the loudest gun at the range. Once.

[theperfessor]

There are some people that just need to be shown where the exit door is...

[prsman23]

In days gone by natural selection would have taken care of it, but nowadays we protect the stupid so well that the gene pool is in severe danger of total corruption.

We all need to thank god intelligence isn't hereditary.

[300savage]

Sounds to me he might be about ready to sit down and listen to some advice.*

[41 mag fan]

I don't have much patience with idiots who don't understand the potential dangers they deal with when loading ammo.
I want more shooters and reloaders but I won't tolerate those who don't take safety seriously.

We need responsible shooters. Knowledgable, safe reloaders.

What we don't need is morons blowing up guns and getting hurt. That only paints us in a poor light. We have a duty to police our own ranks. People like that wouldn't last real long in some gun clubs.

Very well said Brad. My lines of thinking you put into words. Anything that throws the gunowner/reloader in a negative light is not good, esp with things are the way they are these days.
That gunstore owner did us more justice than we all can realize.
Now as for the idiot that blew up the gun, the old saying holds true....You can't fix stupid!!


What I've related in the OP was only part of the conversation.
Perry, one of the other guys there, knew the "blow-up reloader" and he was "one strange cookie."
Neil said that the way the laws are anymore he was afraid of getting sued over other people's irresponsibility.

Neil said that when he brought in the DX, he wanted to know if it could be fixed.
Neil said everything on it was damaged barrel burst, no slide and even the rails in the frame.

PLUS: When Neil sold him all that reloading stuff he told him he would need a scales. The guy told he had scales. turned out the be kitchen scales.
When Neil ask him how much powder he was putting in the cases, while looking at the destroyed Springfield, the guy gave Neil an odd look and said I don't know I just filled them up and put in the bullet.

I wondered if there was more to the story, as you wrote of the mean..mad...look the store owner got on his face.
Then I read this part, and you confirmed my suspicions.
IMO the store owner done right, it's just too bad the idiot who belw the gun up hasn't realized realized reloading manuals are printed for a reason.

[Teddy (punchie)]

I don't think the guy would use a manual if he had it. Some people just don't get it. There are folks who have to have their 38 Special "handle" 357 Magnum level loads, they have to go 90+ miles an hour on the expressway and then they have to exaggerate their "accomplishments" on the Internet. In days gone by natural selection would have taken care of it, but nowadays we protect the stupid so well that the gene pool is in severe danger of total corruption.
I was just getting ready to say I don't think we would read it over, he would only look at loads a make up his own and not knowing enough to be able to even make a good guess. Some gun just are not made to overload, some maybe but it takes years of knowledge and wisdom to do so. Your not going to change someone mind, they are taught today, that they're right and it is Okay to be different and not no what you are talking about, just so it sounds good.

[oldred]

I have told this story a couple of times here before but it fits this thread, a guy came to our temporary range we had set up one weekend and wanted to try some of his "new reloads" for his original Trapdoor (the rifle was in nice condition) which he proudly showed us before trying them. Upon questioning what loading data he was using we learned that he did not even know what "loading data" was! He had simply bought the equipment a a gun shop (very much like the situation this thread is about) and did not buy a manual, this guy was very ingenious about his methods. He took a factory Remington 45/70 405 gr cartridge and pulled the bullet then dumped the powder out in a small bowl. Then this genius measured a like amount of his powder on a volume to volume basis for what was in the Remington load, powder is powder right? The problem was that when he bought the equipment he bought what he needed to load 38 special and the shop owner suggested Bullseye as a good powder so then when he went back and bought 45/70 gear he already had a "good" powder. Basically he had a volume to volume quantity of Bullseye substituted for whatever it is Remington used in the factory round! He was very upset when we refused to let him shoot those things and try as we might we could not make him understand what he had done wrong and that he was very likely going to injure himself, he just kept insisting the shop owner had told him Bullseye was a "good" powder and that the shop owner sells guns so he knows a lot more than we did. He left in a huff and we figured we would be hearing about the coming accident but fortunately he must have heard at least some of what we told him because he never tried to fire any of those rounds. Apparently he talked with someone else, possibly the shop owner, who told him the same thing we did so this for certain accident never happened. How many blow-ups that we hear about are caused by this kind of thinking? That and the urge some people have to hot-rod anything and everything account for the vast majority of what is reported as accidents but IMO they are not accidents they are acts of stupidity, accidents are when someone who knows better inadvertently does something they would not do if they had not made a mistake.

[oldred]

I don't think he would read it over, he would only look at loads a make up his own



And that is a major problem, far too many people who do buy a manual don't read it they simply buy it for the loading data and read nothing else! To them the manual is nothing more than a set of load data charts.

[FLINTNFIRE]

My advice to anyone reloader or shooter is buy a manual , buy more then one read them front to back listen read, understand , before attempting loading , powders are different , I always stress that to newer shooters even those who are not reloaders .
I do not feel from reading the story that he would read one if it was given to him , some people know it all already.

[snaketail]

Hey - the store had powder! Screw the duma$$, the good news is they had powder and primers! Hope supplies work their down to the lower states soon. (And yes, I have a new reloading manual.)
And buy a good - really good - powder scale. Some of those digitals from China are awful. I have one that won't hold "0" and will vary about 4 grains when I weigh the same load three times 6.0/8.3/10.4...this is as bad/dangerous as not having a manual!

[country gent]

I always recomend at least one manual Normally Lymann and also the one callibers for the calibers they are loading. Lymann has one of the best Beginners/How to sections in it. The one calibers are compilations of bullet manufacturers, powder manufacturers, and equipment makers data all in one book. I then recomend taking all this information and averaging the max loads for the powder being used and making that target Maxinum to start with. I also recomend any and all non published data ( friends reloads data from internet, a found loading label) Be checked against the manuals. I once found a box of 375 Holland and Hollands on the range with a reloading label applied, load was 4 grns over max at least in all my manuals. A beginer who found this is liable to believe it is good data. Always explain the process of "working up a load" also. What to look for, How to do it, and most important Why you do it. I used to keeps some fired cases with "flattened primers for an example of.

[x101airborne]

I use 5 loading manuals and compare them all agains the others. It is not worth overcharging, and we all know data changes. And even staying within the limits of safety accidents still happen. I am waiting to photograph and autopsy my 44 bulldog and I consider myself a safe, experienced handloader.

I wouldn't have sold that guy toothpicks either. He might have put an eye out.

[starmac]

The scary part is, is that he apparently has another gun + plus he has friends that own guns that don't have enough sense to not use his reloads either.
I will support everyones right to own a firearm or two or ten, but I don't believe everybody should.

I commend the shop owner, lots of places would have took his money out of greed.
If this guy didn't have enough sense to get manual before he started, much less after he destroyed a couple of guns, you could give him a truck load of them and it would do no good.

[country gent]

Snaketrail, Like any preccision insterment a scales without a set of check wieghts or standards is useless. Wieghing the same chrge tells you consistency, but even if they all measure 10.0 every time is it really 10.0 or 10.5 actually. RCBS makes a set of refrence weights and they should be a part of every purchase of a scales. Thats why mst tol rooms spend so much for gage blocks and gage pins. When I did gage work mikes and measuring insterments were checked at dimension with pins or blocks to be sure. A scales should be check at or close to the charge weight being thrown. The rcbs set allowed this to be done.
As to the gentleman in above thread, He needs to learn alot and people around him need to be carefull also. If his relaoding is this slipshod what are his saftey handling skills? I have seen alot of reloaders who have to Have the "fastest" loads there are. Wathed one guy at the home club blow the sako extractor out of his remingtons bolt 3 times in one session. Loads were way over pressure and he was talking another increase to get to velocity he wanted still.At hte time he had a gunsmith in the area building a 30-378 1000 yd gun for him. Custom action, hart barrel jewel trigger mcmillen stock. Would have been the same as all his loadings were only more powder and heavier bullets. These guys really need someone to take them by the hand and work with them. Seen one M1A blown up with Faux match ammo. Guy was pulling the 147 grn bullet from portugese ball ammo and seating a 168 sierra on it as is. Guns reciever let go just behind the lugs, blew mag out the bottom, split stock and broke leather sling at mag well. He had a cut on his hand and bridge of his nose but no sticthes were required. The forearm was found infront of the firing line roughly 50 feet from the incident.

[EMC45]

I have about 10-12 manuals. Never can have too many. I have loaned a few out and given some away as well. IT is all important info in there.



Also what I find very bizarre is that fledgling reloaders always want to "share" their ammo with "buddies".

[bangerjim]

The aforementioned "blow-up" fella probably lives (and will probably die) by the mantra:

"People that think they know everything............ really piss-off those of us that do!" ;-)

[dagger dog]

One of the guys that delivers auto parts to the shop where I work wants to start reloading.He has purchased some of his kit already.

At least he had the sense to ask for help, he explained that he could retain a lot more and would feel safer by hands on experience , and asked if I would be willing to walk him through the steps.

My gift to him was a reloading manual, he has been reading for a few weeks and we have a session planned for this week end.
I sure want him the have the same feelings I had the first time he shoots his own ammo.

So there are some that do have their heads out from in between their butt cheeks and in an upright position ,and realize that reloading can be hazardous to your health and wallet.

The guy in the OP had a case of spectal, rectalitius , it occurs when the optic nerve crosses with the anal sphincter muscle, and you get a ****** perspective on things.

[BeeMan]

Some of what I've seen over the last few months has been enough to make me cringe. Gun handling by the crowds in the LGS, questions asked of me about reloading, etc. show there are a lot of newcomers. Some are willing to ask, others make you want to find the nearest exit, fast.

I had no mentor at all in the shooting sports but it seemed a bit obvious that some caution was appropriate in reloading. My reloading career started with a visit to Carters in Houston TX. The counter guy sold me Speer Reloading Manual Number Ten. There was a chapter by Jack O'Connor on pressures and handloading plus several pages that showed close up pictures of various powder types. Those pages were dog-eared before I loaded my first rounds.

Manuals take up most of a shelf now and are the most used item in my enjoyment of this hobby.

[WILCO]

When I was starting out in the world of reloading, there was no internet access and only two people at the reloading bench. Richard Lee and myself. Mr. Lee was in book form.......

[archmaker]

Good for him, I have adopted the same atitude at work. I get people who say they want to do computer security work 'hacking' all the time. I have in the past spent time with them to train them, but nowdays, I simple hand them a book, on the subject.

If they come back to me asking for more books, or wanting to discuss what they have read . . . great, I then will mentor them. If the book just gathers dust, I have no time for them. If you can't take the time to learn on your own, don't waste my time.

[JeffinNZ]

The store owner did well. The guy received the same piece of prudent advice twice and didn't follow it. Best to keep him a long way away.

[bruce drake]

I learned from Richard Lee's Book and then branched on to learning from Dean Grennell and then onto the Cast Bullet Handbook and then to this forum as well. Every day, I am glad I learned from what I read so I never had a major reload issue. Read, Learn and then Apply.

[Alan in Vermont]

I like to think that I would have given the man one instead. Maybe, maybe not but that is the man I would like to be. He had the right to refuse service , he had no right to be disrespectful.

I have to applaud the store owner, it's HIS business, HE sees the guy as a jerk, and HE had the stones to tell the dweeb to hit the highway.

BTW, respect has to be earned, and from what we can see here this individual had already burned his respect credentials.

I had an inquiry once about pricing some work from one **** hat locally. I knew the name was familiar so made an inquiry or two and called the guy back. Told him that I would NOT be out to look at the work,, He asked why not? :) :)

"Because you have a history of going out of your way to be difficult and unreasonably hard to please, I have no need to work for people like you!"

And that felt really, REALLY good.

[L1A1Rocker]

i use 5 loading manuals and compare them all against the others.

this!!!

[Blacksmith]

To many people these days don't really want to learn anything they just want the answer. You see it frequently on the internet with the questions asked.

Where can I buy some common item. Apparently never heard of a search engine.

What is the best, or fastest, or most accurate, or cheapest load, or handgun, or car. Just give me the answer I don't want any background information and I am in to much of a hurry to give all the details.

You also see it in the answers often given (It must be true I saw it on the internet) people who think they know the answer but really don't or those that give an answer that is right in one set of circumstances but wrong in others.

You can't fix stupid but it can cause a lot of headaches for the rest of us.

[MtGun44]

I once saw a Automag, a real one, not the silly .22 mags and such made much later
with the same name. .44 Automag caliber, with NO LUGS left on the bolt.
The bolt head looks a lot like an AR15 bolt head, 6 lugs and a plunger ejector
and side extractor.
ALL the lugs had sheared off about a 45 deg angle, leaving about 1/4" flat face
of the bolt face with the firing pin hole. Amazingly, the rest of the gun seemed
OK. The dealer was ordering a new bolt and hoped to get it running again.

He told me that the guy that brought it in had filled the case with BE out of
ignorance.

God protects idiots and little children.

Bill

[TXGunNut]

In today's world the gunstore owner was right. He gave Mr Bullseye some good advice and he ignored it, continued to ignore it. If Mr Bullseye hasn't hurt someone already he most certainly will, and any attorney will follow the trail back to where he bought his supplies. I've been reloading 35 years, still have my first manual and consult at least 2-3 on every new load. Most years I buy a new manual just to keep up with new components. I read the instruction section of that first manual thru at least twice and studied a bit harder on some sections. I also had a mentor who showed me a few things and kept safe.
Funny thing, I still sit down with a loading manual now and then just to read it. I finally bought Lee's manual a few years back and have read most of it.

[uscra112]

Hmm, I guess I was lucky. My old Dad was a reloader, and a compulsive engineer to boot. I learned from him. Didn't know there was any other way.

[Katya Mullethov]

On numerous occasions "he" has asked why coolant(tap water) was running out of the tailpipe of his car . I always ask ...."Did you blow a hose , water pump , or for some other reason , loose all your coolant?" and they invariably reply.. " Yeah , but I only drove it _____ ."

Fill in the blanks , but it is always more than a block or two .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98I1i8Toj8E
What kinda beer is THAT ?

[bruce drake]

Good Old Pabst Blue Ribbon! You can't miss that distinctive label and the trademarked resulting beergut on the speaker...

[9w1911]

Well, a problem that could come out of this is, said reloader gets seriously injured or even worse a piece of his gun hits a bystander and when people begin to ask what the hell happened and what ammo is that, when he says reloads, someone will eventually ask, "who told you to do this? who sold you the equipment?" and some lawyer can run that up that flag pole bring it to court etc. its a legitimate fear on the part of the gun shop owner. A wrongful death suite even if was found in the gun shop owners favor will still cost a ton and drag months in court. When you see a loose cannon like that best to part ways.
If it were me, and its not so it is easy to comment on it but I would be furious if he brought the gun back blown up and I sold him the equipment, under the circumstances after what was told to him about load data he would be banned from my store.

[Katya Mullethov]

but I would be furious if he brought the gun back blown up and I sold him the equipment,

Yeah , furious , lol .

[BeeMan]

To many people these days don't really want to learn anything they just want the answer.

This. It is referred to as the fast food mentality here.

[km101]

Kudos to the gunshop owner for having the stones to tell Mr. Bullseye to hit the door! He probably prevented, or at least delayed a serious incident or even death due to this person's ignorance and unwillingness to learn or follow good advice. Mr Bullseye has already shown that he does not learn from his mistakes and is just an accident waiting to happen, so I would have no problem barring him from buying reloading supplies with which he could harm himself or others. In today's society he is a liability the shop owner can not afford.

[Boyscout]

Safety! I work a job with some pretty tough hours and the negative effects are very cumlative. I have learned not to reload unless I have had a good night's sleep. I will do prep-work on cases and I will cast where I can remelt my mistakes. I will not throw powder charges. I opened up the Lyman Cast Manual recently and got dislexic and used data for 358 Winchester instead of 35 Remington (opposite pages in manual). Realized my error and dismantled the rounds immediately. I now write on a 3x5" card what I am loading and check again against the manual or against my notes in the back of the manual on loads done before. It's an extra step just to avoid problems. Speed is not an issue; I'm not a manufacturer.

[bob208]

may be the store owner was thinking of the law sute if the idot hurt himself.

[44Vaquero]

People like "Bullseye" show up in every hobby/sport, it just so happens that some sports are more dangerous than others. I met a guy like him several years back while attending a P.A.D.I. Scuba diving certification class. The Dive Master eventually kicked him out of the class!

Funny thing was the guy never understood why the local dive shops would not do business with him. Divers are an even smaller community then shooters and word got around fast!

[popper]

Try this with BE.
70895

[Chili]

When I was 19 I asked and "old" AF Reservist of 45 or so about reloading. He told me that if I was not willing to buy a manual and follow directions to the letter, there was no need discussing it! I told him fair enough. That week I bought a then current Hornady 3rd Ed and devoured everything in there. Good thing the armory is quite between shift changes because when he came back for next months drill, we had a very long discussion about reloading.

[mold maker]

Call me a bookworm, but I've a whole collection of well used manuals. After over 50 years, I won't do anything from memory, or someones elses say so. I've never loaded a max load or had split/damaged cases, except from old age , and many loadings.
Overloading is WAY too expensive in too many ways.

[odfairfaxsub]

there are some people that just need to be shown where the exit door is...
amen!!!

[Smoke4320]

may be the store owner was thinking of the law sute if the idot hurt himself.

and that would be exactly what Mr Bullseye and the lawyer would try ..

[Crash_Corrigan]

I starting reloading back in '90. I was tired of paying $8 and 9$ for a box of .38 Specials. I sprang for over $1,000 and went whole hog. Not only a Lee press but a Lee Casting Pot and Dean Grenells book on the basics of reloading. Before I touched the equipment I read the book over and over to make sure I understood everthing. I ended up loading 4.3 gr of W 231 in .38 Specials under a Lee 158 Gr LSWC and I have not looked back.

I have never had any type of reloading issue other then squib loads which got stuck in the barrel. For years I carried a mallet and squib load rod to the range to punch out the squibs.

Twenty years later my wife fired off a fast string of 9 MM's and the third round was a squib. She fired off No 4 into an obstructed barrel. The gun did not blow up. The barrel split and some gunk flew back into her face and the report was really loud. That the manufacturer Tangafoligio made a super strong gun was really nice. They put the gun back together with a new barrel in two weeks. Now I have a Dillon XL 650 with a powder check device to prevent squib loads or double loaded cases. Another lesson learned and I was lucky she was not hurt at all.

You can never be too careful reloading ammo.

[300savage]

Far too late to worry about that at this point in time. lf there are any liability issues concerning the shop owner in this situation it occured when he let the fellow write him a check for the reloading supplies without insisting upon him leaving with a manual.
He had no trouble accepting the mans money when he was spending a grand even though he knew at that time clearly the customer was a reloading newbie. THAT was the time to insist upon the manual. Like I said earlier the fellow spent most likely over a thousand dollars in your store,, he is potentially a long term customer,, perhaps potential friend..GIVE him a freeking manual. No I am not impressed in the slightest by this shop owner, and in my opinion the way he handled this situation makes us all look bad and only increases his own liability.

[10-x]

To many people these days don't really want to learn anything they just want the answer. You see it frequently on the internet with the questions asked.

Where can I buy some common item. Apparently never heard of a search engine.

What is the best, or fastest, or most accurate, or cheapest load, or handgun, or car. Just give me the answer I don't want any background information and I am in to much of a hurry to give all the details.

You also see it in the answers often given (It must be true I saw it on the internet) people who think they know the answer but really don't or those that give an answer that is right in one set of circumstances but wrong in others.

You can't fix stupid but it can cause a lot of headaches for the rest of us.
AMEN !!!!!!!! I got into a discussion on another forum about reloading, made the comment every beginner should buy at least 3 manuals and read them several times. Well.........you would have thought I wanted to seal someones wife as most said, "You only need 1 manual". I replied,"you need to look up the loads in the 70's Sierra and the #7 and #9 Speer and compare to today. They are ignorant and have no clue.
IIRC ,Elmer had a sentence or 2 about some guy he knew that "measured" his powder by eye on a piece of paper, guess he had a big family.

[lars1367]

That's why every bag of brass I sell has a disclaimer: "Always read and follow the data in your reloading manual." I started without one only because I couldn't find one in stock anywhere, and with youtube for a guide. I decided to wait a few months, and bought one before I ever jerked the handle on a live round, also because of the stuff on youtube. Man, there are a lot of idiots out there that don't have a clue. It's only a controlled explosion, inches from your face!...what's the worse that could happen?!
-Corey

[xs11jack]

I believe that sending this cretin a loading manual would be an exercise in futility. He will look at the cover, snort, and throw it in a corner.
Jack

[starmac]

Could the shop owner know for certain that the guy didn't already have a manual?
Did the shop owner know at the time that the guy did not have the sense (common) to own loading equipment, or a gun for that matter.
I personally don't think the shop owner was liable for anything for selling him anything, now if the guy proved that he doesn't have the sense to be owning firearms and it could be proved he kept selling him supplies, things might be different.

The shop owner could give him a dozen manual, but there is no way he or anyone else could give him common sense. It just doesn't work that way.

[TXGunNut]

Could the shop owner know for certain that the guy didn't already have a manual?
Did the shop owner know at the time that the guy did not have the sense (common) to own loading equipment, or a gun for that matter.
I personally don't think the shop owner was liable for anything for selling him anything, now if the guy proved that he doesn't have the sense to be owning firearms and it could be proved he kept selling him supplies, things might be different.

The shop owner could give him a dozen manual, but there is no way he or anyone else could give him common sense. It just doesn't work that way.

Giving this guy a stack of manuals, even reading them all to him, probably wouldn't have made a difference. I can accept that some folks simply don't learn well from books but this guy had no desire to learn. I learned to load just fine from a single RCBS manual but now after 35 yrs of reloading I need at least three manuals to guide a new venture. Getting a noob to read one manual before loading is a major victory IMHO. I don't think most noobs would appreciate the different points made in other manuals, could be counterproductive. I loaded for a few years before I bought my second manual, a third manual came along soon after that. Any one of several manuals can get the basics across to a new reloader, additional manuals just give him more depth and flexibility.

[300savage]

I was at my local gun store last evening checking on primers,Neil just got 60,000 in.
As we were shooting the bull and telling jokes as always, the door opens up and in walks a guy I'd never seen before.
The talking stops and Neil, the gun store owner, face changed to an expression I'd only seen in women who wanted nothing to do with another woman.

"What do you want?" Neil snapped at the new arrival.
The new guy got this much out of his mouth, "I need some Bullseye powder. . ."

I never seen Neil react like to anyone before, "I wouldn't sell you a box of toothpicks, if you're not going to buy a loading manual like I suggested you can leave now."
Without a word the guy turned and left.

George said "What's that all about?"
Neil still had the mean look on his face when he said, ". Back before Christmas he came in here, bought a gun and a bunch of reloading stuff, press, die, powder, etc,. I told him he'd need a loading manual too. He said he didn't need one, that he could get all the loading information he needed off of the internet.
Then back in January, he brought back the Springfield DX he bought in a box, blown to pieces. With a tale of his friends gun blown up with his reloads. The DX was junk buddies revolver too."

I remember when I was getting into reloading, my mentor told me the first thing I needed was Lyman Reloading Manual and I had to read the front section at least twice before I could start reloading. And Jim, my mentor, quizzed me every day at work as to what I learned.

Read this again folks. The store owner was crystal clear as to the reloaders status, and to the fact that he did not own a manual. At that point he made a choice to continue with the sale. And he also made the choice of not insuring that he left with manual because he would lose a few dollars gifting him the manual. That is also crystal clear.

If someone had been injured or killed I do not doubt a jury would nail his small tool to the wall.

Just a thought for future reference.. and goodwill to men.

[starmac]

Maybe instead of GIVING him a manual he should have just sent him on his way without anything. I still say the store owner is not liable at all, unless it could be proved that he knew the guy did not have enough sense to use it. The guy proved this to the owner and he then refused to sell to him after he (the owner) knew he shouldn't have a gun to start with. THE OWNER DID THE RIGHT THING under the circumstances. Why would or should the owner give anything away to anyone unless it is a friend or someone he just wants to gift something.

[PS Paul]

Pretty ridiculous. and don't get me started on the "straw purchase" idiots I've had to throw out more than a few tilt?mes!

Last one came back WITH HIS ATTORNEY to tell me I had NO LEGAL RIGHT to deny this clown the ability to buy a firearm that I KNEW was for someone else. He admitted it. Yet somehow it's MY fault?
I was not rude. In fact, I exhibited EXTREME patience and restraint as I threw him out for the VERY LAST time. ha ha!!

Yup. Cannot fix stoopid.

[Sensai]

Are we not personally responsible for anything anymore? When it's even considered that a businessman could be responsible for the irresponsible acts of an imbecile just because he happened to buy the products that he used in his actions from him, we're lost! This is the very kind of thinking that has turned the greatest country on earth to the socialist sewer that we have become.

[10-x]

Contributory negligence should apply here. Shop owner should have sold this clown a come along to pull his head out of his..........well you know:D

[victor3ranger]

I am starting to teach my son-in-law right now. I learned by using a single stage press and still that is all I use eventhough I have several singles setup at once.
The son-inlaw of course starts talking about wanting to learn on a progressive setup, my advice yesterday is to learn on the single stage setup for at least a year, read, study, and adhear to the rules of reloading!!!!!

One thing that I think those of us who have been loading to 30+ years will notice soon is that with all the new loaders showing up due to the ammo shortages, lots of them will try to take shortcuts and rely on the internet for information without ever finding a mentor to guide them. To me, reloading is something that should be learned from someone who is good at this craft. Internet info is ok to a point and at times can help guide you in a good general direction. We should try to guide those that will listen to our experience, and stress the hazards to stay away from, then to instill in them to LEARN LEARN LEARN the craft, because a mistake can and will ruin your day in a very bad way.

[Smitty's Retired]

There are many who get into reloading for all the wrong reasons. They are not into the hobby to gain satisfaction from making a safe, quality, accurate load custom made for a specific firearm. Some get into the hobby because they hold onto the old addage of "I can make me some hot huttin' ammo!!!" Sadly I had a friend who was one of these people and was lucky enough only to loose an eye after trying to "Hot Load" a M1 carbine.

He had talked with several reloaders (including myself) asking tons of questions about testing loads, working up higher velocities, etc. He was told many times, (including from me) to always observe safe loading limits, to observe and study maximum loads and pressures listed in many of the manuals, and to understand why there were pressure limits observed by all gun manufacturers along with the military.

But ............. you know................ there are some people who don't listen because they are not hearing the answer they are wanting to hear. The gentleman that the OP mentions, sounds like one of these people.

Still today, ocassionally, you run into a person that is still holding to the old concept of the hotter and faster the load, the more accurate it will be. Case in point, a very nice respectible gentleman who owns a tire shop I frequent (checking on wheel weights) was like this. The first time I had talked with him about ww's, I was telling him I used them to cast bullets for reloading. His first reply was,"I bet you can really make some hot hunting loads!!." My reply was, "I reload so I know what are in my rounds and for accuracy,." Since then I have stoped by not just for ww's but just to talk. I will always bring up reloading, and he always seems to enjoy the talks. I believe he might even believe me now when I say that a load does not have to be a screamer in speed to be accurate.

But like I said, there will always be those who won't listen. The laws of averages usually catch up with them eventually.

[Blacksmith]

Many years ago I started reloading without a manual or a mentor in the pre internet days. I bought a Lee Loader (wack a mole type) and following the included directions started reloading. However, I followed the directions exactly and to the letter with no substitutions and no variation. I found it was fun and an enjoyable hobby so I bought Mr. Lee's book, then Mr. Lyman's found a mentor at the gun club bought some more books, and equipment and supplies etc. etc. And you all know "The rest of the story".

If I had to do it over I would buy Mr. Lyman's book first Mr. Lee's second and after or while reading both cover to cover find that mentor to answer what I found confusing. Then I would start with either a Lee Loader, tong tool, or single stage press until I was fully comfortable with what was going on.

[TXGunNut]

Are we not personally responsible for anything anymore? When it's even considered that a businessman could be responsible for the irresponsible acts of an imbecile just because he happened to buy the products that he used in his actions from him, we're lost! This is the very kind of thinking that has turned the greatest country on earth to the socialist sewer that we have become.

I've learned the hard way that the only requirements for a lawsuit are a few pieces of paper and a filing fee. Merits of the case are not even considered until several thousand dollars have been spent. Even then there's no guarantee that common sense will prevail.

[starmac]

Blacksmith, that is exactly how I started, back when I was about 16. I didn't know anybody in the area that reloaded, and used the whackem dipper and everything.

[Blacksmith]

Ever wonder what manual to get for that odd ball caliber? Midway has a list of manuals and what calibers they contain.
http://www.midwayusa.com/content/legacy/reloading_manuals.htm

[Curlymaple42]

AMEN !!!!!!!! I got into a discussion on another forum about reloading, made the comment every beginner should buy at least 3 manuals and read them several times. Well.........you would have thought I wanted to seal someones wife as most said, "You only need 1 manual". I replied,"you need to look up the loads in the 70's Sierra and the #7 and #9 Speer and compare to today. They are ignorant and have no clue.
IIRC ,Elmer had a sentence or 2 about some guy he knew that "measured" his powder by eye on a piece of paper, guess he had a big family.

I have come across this as i actually have the or for old manuals from the 60's or 70's from my dad in law plus some new ones. Sometimes the load data does not match at all which is a bit baffling. Same powder and everything, different max loads! Step back and ponder time!