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View Full Version : Casting two part soft nose boolits.......a additional newbie thought.



Smokepole50
05-14-2013, 08:56 PM
If you cast or form the nose first from shot or whatever, could you then drop the nose sections, let them cool, and modify them? I know this will take even more time but hear me out....By modifing I mean make the back side of them cone shaped. This would get you a very clean, uniform and cold surface for the harder driving band metal to melt to and around, and it would also make a mechanical bond running back into the harder rear end of your soft nose boolit. It would also increase your alloy bond surface area making a stronger bond. You could make a cone forming tool out of a piece of wood using a counter sink bit and a piece of saw blade, much like a pencil sharpener. In my low experienced mind I would think this would form a very tough boolit that would mushroom fast but not shed all of its soft nose even if it hit bone due to the soft lead cone core running back into the rear of the boolit.
Just something to think about...............

Smokepole50

MtGun44
05-14-2013, 09:10 PM
The design engineer thinks it is an interesting idea. The shop foreman refuses
to put it into the already busy schedule. :bigsmyl2:

Bill

Sweetpea
05-14-2013, 09:55 PM
There have been molds made in the past that have a small cavity to cast the nose first, with a mechanical lock built in.

You then transfer the nose piece into the full cavity, and fill with a stronger alloy.

I don't know how well they work, with sticking them into a hot mold, butit seems interesting.

Probably a pretty slow process, and hard to keep your mold at temp.

Ymmv

Brandon

runfiverun
05-14-2013, 10:27 PM
why don't you just find bruce b's sticky on the two part boolits ,you will then just be able to make two part boolits.
it doesn't require more than an hour or two to make a few hundred boolits.

Mk42gunner
05-14-2013, 10:55 PM
I don't understand why you would want more soft lead than will be used in the mushroom in your boolit.

If you want a smaller mushroom just make the nose portion smaller while using Bruceb's method.

Robert

btroj
05-14-2013, 11:00 PM
Bruce's method works. Requires little extra work. I use it.

superior
05-14-2013, 11:13 PM
My method is even faster and just as effective. I float a ladle on the surface of the molten lead and toss in a stick-on ww. After it melts, i pour it into the mold, quickly dip into the harder lead below and finish the pour. They come out without seems, and I have never been able to make one fail.

Jailer
05-14-2013, 11:24 PM
why don't you just find bruce b's sticky on the two part boolits ,you will then just be able to make two part boolits.
it doesn't require more than an hour or two to make a few hundred boolits.


Bruce's method works. Requires little extra work. I use it.

Bruceb's method works very well.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/Gun%20stuff/Softpoints.jpg (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/Jailer/media/Gun%20stuff/Softpoints.jpg.html)

runfiverun
05-15-2013, 02:19 AM
good pics jailer.

Shuz
05-16-2013, 11:08 AM
There have been molds made in the past that have a small cavity to cast the nose first, with a mechanical lock built in.

You then transfer the nose piece into the full cavity, and fill with a stronger alloy.

I don't know how well they work, with sticking them into a hot mold, butit seems interesting.

Probably a pretty slow process, and hard to keep your mold at temp.

Ymmv

Brandon

A few years back, Lyman offered composite boolit moulds just like you describe. They are 358624,429625 and 452626.
The idea was to cast a nose from one of the two SC moulds outta soft metal and then cast the base out of a harder metal from the other mould, and then glue them together. I had the 429625 set, and have used them. However, the Lyman method fails in execution, because I could not find any kind of adhesive that would hold the pieces together when the revolver recoiled. So ...first shot was fine, but the rest of the noses jumped outta the bases and screwed up the whole plan!
However, I got an idea(only one I ever had) and decided to just drop the noses cast out of pure lead into an already brought up to temperature 429421 and fill the rest of the mould up with my usual alloy of ww+1% tin. Works like a charm, because the nose has a little "tail" on it that is fused to the hot metal that forms the base. This procedure works with the 429625 nose and moulds 429421 and 429650, the 300 grain gas check mould. I'm not sure what standard moulds in 35 and 45 caliber would apply to the others. These composites don't come apart during recoil, but I have yet to harvest any game with one, I've been too busy playing around with hollow point configurations in multiple cavities.

mdi
05-16-2013, 11:36 AM
There have been molds made in the past that have a small cavity to cast the nose first, with a mechanical lock built in.

You then transfer the nose piece into the full cavity, and fill with a stronger alloy.

I don't know how well they work, with sticking them into a hot mold, butit seems interesting.

Probably a pretty slow process, and hard to keep your mold at temp.

Ymmv

Brandon
I remember reading about a mold system like Brandon describes. It prolly didn't work well, 'cause just a few short years later (mebbe 10) nobody uses them or few know about them...

BruceB
05-16-2013, 04:33 PM
The whole point of my effort was to ELIMINATE THE JOINT.

Jailer's great photo illustrates the concept [perfectly.

The technique of REMELTING the contents of the mould with its hard/soft components in place is the perfect assurance that NO mechanical joint exists.... there is just the seamless, integral meeting of hard and soft, with no possible point of failure. THAT is what I was trying to achieve, and the method is successful.

One extra benefit is that virtually any mould can be used to make softpoints, and no special equipment of any kind is needed.

Smokepole50
05-16-2013, 06:24 PM
I was not suggesting that the wheel needed to be re-made. I was only suggesting that if a cone of the softer nose metal protruded up into the harder metal then there might be a stronger interface between the two metal alloys when they were remelted together. The remelting process would somewhat eliminate the cone effect as the two alloys came together but I thought the greater interface surface might add to the strength of the bond and possibly reduce the sheading of some of the softer nose material. This might not be worth the extra time but in a process that is already slow I though it might be worth some consideration.

runfiverun
05-16-2013, 06:43 PM
the biggest issue that would pop up is oxidization of the alloy it would weaken the bond.
it's similar to cement leeching salts that aren't removed before a new patch is butted up or poured on top.

HollowPoint
05-16-2013, 07:04 PM
I have a soft-pointing tool that allows me to cast softpoints as quickly as I cast single alloy bullets.

In fact, this tool is next on my list of things to do. I plan to upgrade it by integrating a set of 9-12 volt actuators
to get an even smoother flow of molten lead.

Right now it functions with thumb levers. Once I do the upgrade, it will function with the press of one button; dispensing the softer lead first followed immediately by the hard alloy. Releasing the button stops the flow of molten lead. The two small reservoirs on this tool hold enough molten lead to fill the cavities on a two cavity bullet mold; depending on the caliber. And, because the soft and hard lead alloys are still in their molten state when they're dispensed, there is no abrupt joint between the two. There's just a small transitional area where the two alloys mesh.

I used to do it the way Bruce does it and it worked out extremely well. The only down side was that it took to long for me to make alot of bullets. Now I can make a bunch of bullets in the same time it took to make those few I used to make.

In leu of having such a tool, it's hard to beat the BruceB method.

HollowPoint

Smokepole50
05-16-2013, 07:46 PM
Runfiverun...........How would oxidation of the metal be an issue? I was thinking about this when I first made my coments but it has been mentioned that you can pre-cast your soft nose section and pour your harder alloy at a later time and then remelt without issues. I would think pouring a slightly larger nose section then needed and then shaping the back side into a cone at a later time, with the tool I suggested in my first post, would expose fresh lead alloy, with no oxidation present, to be placed in the mold for the second harder alloy pour. Subsquent remelting of both alloy sections would have a fresh interface and should not be weakened by oxidation issues, unless the oxidation rate of lead alloy is extremely fast and if that is the cast then how does the two part process work at all? I am not a chemical engineer so if I am missing something here please tell me.

After further thought I suppose there might be some oxidation of the freshly shaped rear cone section that would ocure when the mold was reheated prior to the second alloy pour but I see no difference in the process from what BruceB has suggested other that the fact that the small amount of oxidation would be over a larger cone shaped section instead of a cross sectioned area of the boolit nose.

Four-Sixty
05-17-2013, 07:13 AM
My method is even faster and just as effective. I float a ladle on the surface of the molten lead and toss in a stick-on ww. After it melts, i pour it into the mold, quickly dip into the harder lead below and finish the pour. They come out without seems, and I have never been able to make one fail.

To refine this further, why not just cast up some ball, say 00 buck, with pure lead. Using two ladles, melt a 00 buck pellet in the first one. Pour your pure lead. Then, fill the mold with your hard lead shortly after. The 00 buck pellet will give you a measured, repeatable piece of lead. All you need is a ball mold of the right size, and a second ladle. Is this similar to BruceBs method?

BruceB
05-17-2013, 10:58 AM
As I stated early in the development process,

1. I'm NOT concerned about the speed of casting softpoints.

2. I wanted NO possibility of mixing or diluting the two component alloys.

3. Therefore, the two parts, nose and shank, should be fixed in their positions with zero chance of movement.

Many people over the decades have done this pour-hard-and-soft -in-close-succession. This was too-much hit-and-miss for MY objective in this matter. THIS is why I adopted the method I use: get a FROZEN softpoint in the mould, THEN pour the shank, and THEN re-melt the entire mess which yields the perfect, seamless, no-joint construction that I wanted... NO POSSIBLE COMPROMISE in the shape, finish or structural integrity of the bullet.

Everyone is free to go whatever he wishes in this proceeding; I know the way I'm going to do it, and it WORKs.

prsman23
05-17-2013, 11:13 AM
I like the repeatability of the buckshot idea. Doesn't matter if its faster. I'll probably end up doing that then finish up like BruceB. It's great to see minds at work guys. That's what is great about this site. See different angles and take what you like.

dverna
05-17-2013, 11:15 AM
I did a search and found BruceB's method and write up. Very interesting and it make a lot of sense.

For the few hunting bullets we use a year his rationale is sound. In a couple of hours you will produce enough to last a LONG time so the investment of time is not onerous. I like the fact you can shoot "normal" cast bullets and get the same ballistics so there is no sighting in needed or meticulous bore cleaning when switch from lead to jacketed to lead.

The other aspect is that we should be able produce a very effective self-defense bullet with a HP soft lead nose and a harder alloy for the shank. Very Interesting!!

Don Verna

NDPendant
05-17-2013, 11:18 AM
Ammosmith has a fairly good video set for this.

http://www.ammosmith.com/bullet-casting-and-swagging/casting-softnose-bullets-3-part-series.php

BruceB
05-17-2013, 11:41 AM
One possible way of obtaining reasonably-consistent nose weight is to use a given number of split-shot sinkers. The different sizes naturally have different weights, so a judicious assortment would allow one to create almost any weight he wishes (four of size 'X' and three of size 'Y' = desired weight).

I would first give the shot a vigorous rinse in acetone to remove any oils or other contaminants,

9.3x62 Al raises the fact that split shot is often made from the scuzziest lead available, but for this purpose I think it would suffice. Worth a try, anyhow.

H.Callahan
05-17-2013, 01:35 PM
I seem to recall a loooong time ago (maybe in the '20s or so), someone made a two part mold that did this. Basically, the nose part was cast first out of pure lead. The shape was something like just the ogive portion of a complete bullet with small shaft out of the back with a larger head on the end (envision a lead nail driven into the base of a small bullet). After they had cooled, they were placed in the tip of the matching second mold and the harder alloy was poured behind the tip and around the shaft. Supposedly, the "nail head" mechanically locked the soft tip into the harder alloy -- no epoxy or anything else needed.

I always thought it was an interesting concept and was interested in playing with it, but the molds were long out of production before I was even born. Might make an interesting project for one of the custom mold makers we have here.

Smokepole50
05-17-2013, 03:58 PM
Well I guess by the total lack of support and opinions that everyone thinks I am stirring the pot and trying to overly complicate an etched in stone process. Maybe my idea is a waste of time, I guess I will find out when I start casting and shooting my 9.3mm boolits. I'll do some testing and see if my suggestions are a improvement or just a waste of time. Picture's of recovered boolits will be the tell all. I never intended to step on anyone's toes.

HollowPoint
05-17-2013, 06:02 PM
Nothing about cast bullets is etched in stone; although it sometimes seems that way when one reads the replies of the few hardcore traditionalists that will still post from time to time.

I've found that there are many different ways to accomplish the same things when it comes to casting your own bullets.

I used to post my intentions before trying something new but after a few times of doing that I began to see a pattern develop. I got some encouragement from those who at some point contemplated trying the same thing but for whatever reason just never got around to doing it themselves.

Then there were the folks that seem to inevitably post replies that included cliches like, "Reinventing the wheel, You can't change the laws of physics" and "I think it's a waste of time; it's already been tired by so-and-so and it just didn't work;" and so on. I don't get that as much now days as when I first joined this forum. I've not seen that on this thread but, the lack of support or encouragement can make one feel just as dejected as an all-out assault on our ideas.

Now days I like to finish my projects before posting my intent. Then I'll test them to see if it was all worth the effort and then I'll post my results. That way any negative feed back I may get will not dampen my ambition for trying new things. To me, this keeps the hobby of bullet casting from becoming stale or stagnate.

Bullet casting is an old tradition. Regardless of the fact that there may be easier or even better ways of doing something, (like making soft-points) the old ways of doing things have so ingrained themselves that sometimes we feel a certain resistance when we put forth what seems like a new idea.

I read your OP. It sounds like it will work. I look forward to seeing your results.

HollowPoint

btroj
05-17-2013, 09:19 PM
New ways of doing things are never bad. They just aren't always "better" either.

I personally use a small second pot with pure lead in it. I made a dipper from a 380 case and some wire. Sprue plate open and mould hot I dump in nose, close plate, pour body. Once the mould is really hot they come out with a minimal seam between the parts. The ones I dig from the berm are always well expanded and stuck together.

Von Gruff
05-17-2013, 10:22 PM
I found the simplest way for me was to cast up my plinker bullets and just take some and cut the nose of at the required length. I used to use a fine toothed saw to make the cut but found that a small bolt cutter made a neater cut and the nose fit back in the mould much better. A little addition or alteration to BruceB's method is that I pre-heat the softnose a little and the mould gets preheated as well with 20-30 seconds in the melt before the nose is put into the mould (with fine needle nose pliers) and the hard shank alloy fills the mould and the mould is placed back in the melt for another 20-30 seconds before being allowed to cool and the bullet dropped out. I found that doing it this way meant that I wasn't having to heat the mould as much or for as long and still got a one piece bullet that had no break point.
Run it over 2400fps and have had great sucess out to 185yds so far on goat.
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/Cast%20bullets/softnoses003.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/Cast%20bullets/softnoses003.jpg.html)
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/Cast%20bullets/006.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/Cast%20bullets/006.jpg.html)

hickfu
05-17-2013, 11:12 PM
Here's a question, if any of you have tried this before.... If you heat treat a boolit and after when you put it into your water, what if you had measured out the water before hand so It came up only to the crimp groove.... Would this only heat treat the bottom portion of the boolit and leave the top soft? I was thinking about trying this at some point.

If this works then you could easily make soft nose boolits where the bottom portion is say 24 to 26 bhn..

Doc

white eagle
05-17-2013, 11:17 PM
Why not use a boolit with a gas check and a hollow point

MT Gianni
05-17-2013, 11:39 PM
Here's a question, if any of you have tried this before.... If you heat treat a boolit and after when you put it into your water, what if you had measured out the water before hand so It came up only to the crimp groove.... Would this only heat treat the bottom portion of the boolit and leave the top soft? I was thinking about trying this at some point.

If this works then you could easily make soft nose boolits where the bottom portion is say 24 to 26 bhn..

Doc
I do not believe that you would get a uniform quick quench that way. I have done the BruceB method with success but have only used them on gallon jugs. I use cast rb from pure soft lead as the point. A 60 gr 313 rb is great for my needs to equal 1/3-1/4 of total bullet weight.