Does anyone hunt with the Lyman 225646 GC bullet in an AR or a Mini-14?

[Rattus58]

Trying to find moulds for my .223 that I can hunt with are difficult because its not specifically mentioned as to what cast bullets are good for hunting in .223. Anyway, I bought a mold for the 225646 Lyman and hope to make some decent hunting bullets out of them since it has a relatively round nose to it. Not knowing how the gas checks will work with a cast bullet at really high velocity, I'm thinking I'd be limited to 2000 or thereabouts in a mini-14. For hunting I don't see that as a problem for me since this rifle is a sheep rifle, not a varmint even though its got the accu-strut attached to it.

Anyone with any thoughts on this?

Aloha.. :cool:

[Larry Gibson]

1st "thought" is; what is the twist of your Mini14, 10, 9 or 7"?

Larry Gibson

[cstrickland]

Trying to find moulds for my .223 that I can hunt with are difficult because its not specifically mentioned as to what cast bullets are good for hunting in .223. Anyway, I bought a mold for the 225646 Lyman and hope to make some decent hunting bullets out of them since it has a relatively round nose to it. Not knowing how the gas checks will work with a cast bullet at really high velocity, I'm thinking I'd be limited to 2000 or thereabouts in a mini-14. For hunting I don't see that as a problem for me since this rifle is a sheep rifle, not a varmint even though its got the accu-strut attached to it.

Anyone with any thoughts on this?

Aloha.. :cool:

are you planning on hollow pointing this mold or shooting soft lead so it expands ?? would also help to know what the size of the sheep are, and what type of shots you expect to be taking.

[quilbilly]

When I got my mini-14, I tested how low the muzzle velocity had to be to still function the ejection. That bottom velocity was somewhere around 2550- fps with a 55 gr Jacketed projectile. Since that is a little faster than I am willing to push even my gas checked boolits, I just use cast in my other 22's ( 22 Hornet, 222 Contender, etc) and save the jacketed bullets just for the mini 14 and my long range desert 22's.

[Rattus58]

1st "thought" is; what is the twist of your Mini14, 10, 9 or 7"?

Larry GibsonIts a mini 14 in 1-9 I'm told... I've not slugged the barrel so I don't know for sure... but serial is 19722270..

[Rattus58]

are you planning on hollow pointing this mold or shooting soft lead so it expands ?? would also help to know what the size of the sheep are, and what type of shots you expect to be taking.Our sheep are mouflon... can be very hardy and other times go down with a breath... feral sheep are your basic barnyard varieties gone wild and are easy to kill... when you hit em right.... Goats are another target as are pigs... :grin: I'm not a fan of hollow points because if hair or other "debris" gets in the hollow, you now have a solid as I've witnessed on several occasion... and so therefore.. keeping it a soft point.

[cstrickland]

Our sheep are mouflon... can be very hardy and other times go down with a breath... feral sheep are your basic barnyard varieties gone wild and are easy to kill... when you hit em right.... Goats are another target as are pigs... :grin: I'm not a fan of hollow points because if hair or other "debris" gets in the hollow, you now have a solid as I've witnessed on several occasion... and so therefore.. keeping it a soft point.

seeing as I have just started to think about casting I can not truly answer that question. I would suspect that if you get the right lead formula that a cast would expand very well and stay together, thus making a great hunting bullet. I have only ever used partitions in 223 and well that work great . I would suggest asking this in the hunting with CB section.

[Rattus58]

seeing as I have just started to think about casting I can not truly answer that question. I would suspect that if you get the right lead formula that a cast would expand very well and stay together, thus making a great hunting bullet. I have only ever used partitions in 223 and well that work great . I would suggest asking this in the hunting with CB section.Hunting with CB.... now why would one think of that.... hahahaha.... :grin:... Thanks.... fer the tip... Aloha... :cool:

[Larry Gibson]

With the 9" twist you can develop loads with the best accuracy in the 1850 - 1950 fps range that will function the action using 4895 or slower burning powder that ignites and burns well. Use a dacron filler if the load density is less than 80%. You can also develop useable loads upwards of 2100 fps while maintaining "useable" accuracy (equal to milsurp) using the slower burning powders such as RL19, AA4350 and H4831SC or even RL22. What most often works in a .223 AR will also work in a Mini14 but functional reliability at low enough velocity for accuracy with cast bullets is the key/goal.

Should be sufficient for smaller game up through coyote. If you are talking deer then 1st is the .223 legal? Are you capable of using a very minimal cartridge and not lose a wounded deer? Frankly for deer and even Coyote I think spending the $s for quality jacketed bullets to optimise the performance of the .223 in those rifles is a better idea. As much as I love cast bullets they are not always the best choice. (Probably catch flack on that but I base it on fact not opinion)

Larry Gibson

[Rattus58]

With the 9" twist you can develop loads with the best accuracy in the 1850 - 1950 fps range that will function the action using 4895 or slower burning powder that ignites and burns well. Use a dacron filler if the load density is less than 80%. You can also develop useable loads upwards of 2100 fps while maintaining "useable" accuracy (equal to milsurp) using the slower burning powders such as RL19, AA4350 and H4831SC or even RL22. What most often works in a .223 AR will also work in a Mini14 but functional reliability at low enough velocity for accuracy with cast bullets is the key/goal.

Should be sufficient for smaller game up through coyote. If you are talking deer then 1st is the .223 legal? Are you capable of using a very minimal cartridge and not lose a wounded deer? Frankly for deer and even Coyote I think spending the $s for quality jacketed bullets to optimise the performance of the .223 in those rifles is a better idea. As much as I love cast bullets they are not always the best choice. (Probably catch flack on that but I base it on fact not opinion)

Larry GibsonOk... please understand that I am a muzzleloader hunter exclusively till two weekends ago... :grin: My caliber of choice is the .451 with a home designed bullet called a Mose Copper Cruiser of 470 grains.. gas checked. Now on the other hand, I am into making my own bullets... and I've never done this before (reloading brass) till looked at my two 44 mag shooters.... and thought... hmmmm why not... I hunt longbow for the similar reason I'm sure.... though the missuse hasn't identified many of the anamolies resident here yet...

One thing I've noticed about gas check bullets in my .451... or .41... is that there has never been a leading issue to contend with.. and I credit the gas check for that. My buddy, shoots a .223 on goats and sheep and swears by it... though on our last hunt he was lugging a .270 ... :grin: Trust issues... :grin:?

What I'm concerned with is expansion without leading. Gas checks I'm hoping will accomodate that. Beyond all that though is the idea of the challenge. I have a friend who shoots (hunts actually) deer with a .22LR with Dept. Of AG along so that they can provide for commercial use of venison. Assuming that a .223 is considerably more potent than the .22LR, I am looking to see just what one can do with properly placed shots with the .223.

You see enough evidence around of people shooting pigs, goats and sheep with the .223 with commercial bullets that seem to have great effect, my question is, why/what can cast bullets and this bullet in particular can do on game.

Aloha... :cool:

[dverna]

With the 9" twist you can develop loads with the best accuracy in the 1850 - 1950 fps range that will function the action using 4895 or slower burning powder that ignites and burns well. Use a dacron filler if the load density is less than 80%. You can also develop useable loads upwards of 2100 fps while maintaining "useable" accuracy (equal to milsurp) using the slower burning powders such as RL19, AA4350 and H4831SC or even RL22. What most often works in a .223 AR will also work in a Mini14 but functional reliability at low enough velocity for accuracy with cast bullets is the key/goal.

Should be sufficient for smaller game up through coyote. If you are talking deer then 1st is the .223 legal? Are you capable of using a very minimal cartridge and not lose a wounded deer? Frankly for deer and even Coyote I think spending the $s for quality jacketed bullets to optimise the performance of the .223 in those rifles is a better idea. As much as I love cast bullets they are not always the best choice. (Probably catch flack on that but I base it on fact not opinion)

Larry Gibson

Man I love an honest man who has not drunk the Kool-Aid. Sometimes cast is NOT the right answer.

You owe it to the animal to kill it effectively. Buy a box of good jacketed .224 bullets to kill your goats/sheep/deer whatever. Use cast for cheap practice.

Or go up to a 6.8 if you want to use an AR with cast for medium sized game.

[Rattus58]

Man I love an honest man who has not drunk the Kool-Aid. Sometimes cast is NOT the right answer.

You owe it to the animal to kill it effectively. Buy a box of good jacketed .224 bullets to kill your goats/sheep/deer whatever. Use cast for cheap practice.

Or go up to a 6.8 if you want to use an AR with cast for medium sized game.Well if the .223 is not capable of killin something... I'll probably just stick to my two proven killers... my .451 and my .58.

[Larry Gibson]

Rattus58

Little background; I’ve been shooting and hunting "game" with the .223/5.56 since '65. I've considerable experience with it in M16/ARs (with 5 different twists), M249s, Mini14s (with all 3 twists), bolt actions and SS rifles along with several Contender pistols. I've killed a lot of different animals from field mice to elk with the .223 cartridge. I've killed all with SPs, HPBTs, FMJBTs and a lot with cast bullets. The jacketed loads out of the rifles ran 2950 fps up through 3400 fps. I have been chronographing loads since '75 so those are actual measured velocities not guestimated ones.

I have been shooting cast bullets out of the .223 upwards of 2200 - 2400 fps (12 - 14" twist barrels) with usable accuracy using alloys that offer expansion. With 9" twist barrels that velocity is most often less than 2000 fps with 20" or shorter barrels. I can tell you right off you will not get a reasonable accuracy, if any accuracy at all, with a 225646 cast of any alloy that offers expansion out of your 18" Mini14 barrel with a 9" twist at anywhere near jacketed bullet velocities. You may, or may not get the accuracy you require for hunting goats and sheep there in Hawaii (assumption of the location based on "aloha") at 2000 fps. More than likely the best accuracy will be at a lower velocity but you may get useable accuracy somewhere around 1900 - 2100 fps so let’s call it that, ok. Some will claim 2300 – 2400 fps with “useable accuracy” out of the faster twists and if the ranges are short you may get away with that. Knowing what the accuracy really is, especially past 100 yards, I will not.

Now I've no problem with using the .223 with jacketed SPs on goats, deer or smaller sheep if one's hunting conditions are that proper bullet placement can be made. On the other hand with cast bullets in the .223 at 2000 fps we are basically shooting close to a .22 WRM. If your shooting conditions and ranges at which you'll be shooting cast bullets as such offer precise bullet placement and you can do that for a clean kill then you won't get an argument from me on whether to do it or not. The choice is yours. In my own case I restricted the use of cast bullets out of my .223s to coyote and smaller animals and when deer, goats or larger was the game I opted for a good Jacketed SP or FMJ (if that was “required” for the game afoot).

In the gas guns with 10” or faster twists I used for the larger 4 footed game I preferred the Winchester 64 gr SP loaded over a top load of AA2460 which duplicated the velocity of M855 ammunition. There are other SPs that do as well. I’ve a very nice 4 point Mule Deer hanging over my right shoulder on the wall that was shot with just that load out of my 9” twist AR. I will use a good j bullet for such but that’s just my choice.

Point is it appears you are asking if cast bullets are as effective at full .223 velocities as are the “factory SPs”(?) and the short answer would be if you could push them that fast with hunting accuracy they would be just as good. In reality you can’t so they are not. That is the answer.

Larry Gibson

[Rattus58]

Rattus58

Little background; I’ve been shooting and hunting "game" with the .223/5.56 since '65. I've considerable experience with it in M16/ARs (with 5 different twists), M249s, Mini14s (with all 3 twists), bolt actions and SS rifles along with several Contender pistols. I've killed a lot of different animals from field mice to elk with the .223 cartridge. I've killed all with SPs, HPBTs, FMJBTs and a lot with cast bullets. The jacketed loads out of the rifles ran 2950 fps up through 3400 fps. I have been chronographing loads since '75 so those are actual measured velocities not guestimated ones.

I have been shooting cast bullets out of the .223 upwards of 2200 - 2400 fps (12 - 14" twist barrels) with usable accuracy using alloys that offer expansion. With 9" twist barrels that velocity is most often less than 2000 fps with 20" or shorter barrels. I can tell you right off you will not get a reasonable accuracy, if any accuracy at all, with a 225646 cast of any alloy that offers expansion out of your 18" Mini14 barrel with a 9" twist at anywhere near jacketed bullet velocities. You may, or may not get the accuracy you require for hunting goats and sheep there in Hawaii (assumption of the location based on "aloha") at 2000 fps. More than likely the best accuracy will be at a lower velocity but you may get useable accuracy somewhere around 1900 - 2100 fps so let’s call it that, ok. Some will claim 2300 – 2400 fps with “useable accuracy” out of the faster twists and if the ranges are short you may get away with that. Knowing what the accuracy really is, especially past 100 yards, I will not.

Now I've no problem with using the .223 with jacketed SPs on goats, deer or smaller sheep if one's hunting conditions are that proper bullet placement can be made. On the other hand with cast bullets in the .223 at 2000 fps we are basically shooting close to a .22 WRM. If your shooting conditions and ranges at which you'll be shooting cast bullets as such offer precise bullet placement and you can do that for a clean kill then you won't get an argument from me on whether to do it or not. The choice is yours. In my own case I restricted the use of cast bullets out of my .223s to coyote and smaller animals and when deer, goats or larger was the game I opted for a good Jacketed SP or FMJ (if that was “required” for the game afoot).

In the gas guns with 10” or faster twists I used for the larger 4 footed game I preferred the Winchester 64 gr SP loaded over a top load of AA2460 which duplicated the velocity of M855 ammunition. There are other SPs that do as well. I’ve a very nice 4 point Mule Deer hanging over my right shoulder on the wall that was shot with just that load out of my 9” twist AR. I will use a good j bullet for such but that’s just my choice.

Point is it appears you are asking if cast bullets are as effective at full .223 velocities as are the “factory SPs”(?) and the short answer would be if you could push them that fast with hunting accuracy they would be just as good. In reality you can’t so they are not. That is the answer.

Larry Gibson

My longest shot ever on game was a little over 300 yards with a .308 back in 1985. That was the last shot I took with that gun. Then I "discovered" muzzleloaders. I've never looked back except for my last hunt on Molokai where it was insisted upon by the host that I use a 3030 instead of my White. That weekend i shot three deer... one with my longbow, one with that offered 30.30 and one with my .451 White... a grand slam so to speak... :grin: That was the last time I fired a centerfire hunting. With my muzzleloaders my longest "measured" shot was 123 yards. All others over the years have been a very close range... averaging in my opinion... 25-50 yards max.

My hunt with my policeman buddy where he missed a shot, was about 30 yards... had he stayed with me, it would have been a dead mouflon... If you're saying this mold isn't going to produce accurate bullets... so be it... and it'll be up for sale as soon as I receive it. I hunt. I'm not a shooter. I don't use scopes and I don't shoot to see if I can hit something. I don't know the wherewithall of 22 mags, but I do know the wherewithall of a 22LR and in certain hands I'm more than impressed. Those wouldn't be my hands however.

I am fully aware of the fact that longer twists are usually more desireable to spin bullets at high velocity than are shorter ones, but shorter ones are necessary for the stabilization of reduced velocity. In a 55 grain bullet, you are hampered with reduced velocity on two fronts, one is trajectory... and the other is momentum/KE. Neither of these concern me in the manner that I hunt, but accuracy on the other hand is. If this bullet is not capable of refined accuracy, even at 30 yards it becomes problematic... for the manner of a good shot in my opinion relies in great measure to the confidence one has in ones bullet. To me there is no shot without it.

Thank you... Aloha.. :cool:

[Rattus58]

Rattus58

Little background; I’ve been shooting and hunting "game" with the .223/5.56 since '65. I've considerable experience with it in M16/ARs (with 5 different twists), M249s, Mini14s (with all 3 twists), bolt actions and SS rifles along with several Contender pistols. I've killed a lot of different animals from field mice to elk with the .223 cartridge. I've killed all with SPs, HPBTs, FMJBTs and a lot with cast bullets. The jacketed loads out of the rifles ran 2950 fps up through 3400 fps. I have been chronographing loads since '75 so those are actual measured velocities not guestimated ones.

I have been shooting cast bullets out of the .223 upwards of 2200 - 2400 fps (12 - 14" twist barrels) with usable accuracy using alloys that offer expansion. With 9" twist barrels that velocity is most often less than 2000 fps with 20" or shorter barrels. I can tell you right off you will not get a reasonable accuracy, if any accuracy at all, with a 225646 cast of any alloy that offers expansion out of your 18" Mini14 barrel with a 9" twist at anywhere near jacketed bullet velocities. You may, or may not get the accuracy you require for hunting goats and sheep there in Hawaii (assumption of the location based on "aloha") at 2000 fps. More than likely the best accuracy will be at a lower velocity but you may get useable accuracy somewhere around 1900 - 2100 fps so let’s call it that, ok. Some will claim 2300 – 2400 fps with “useable accuracy” out of the faster twists and if the ranges are short you may get away with that. Knowing what the accuracy really is, especially past 100 yards, I will not.

Now I've no problem with using the .223 with jacketed SPs on goats, deer or smaller sheep if one's hunting conditions are that proper bullet placement can be made. On the other hand with cast bullets in the .223 at 2000 fps we are basically shooting close to a .22 WRM. If your shooting conditions and ranges at which you'll be shooting cast bullets as such offer precise bullet placement and you can do that for a clean kill then you won't get an argument from me on whether to do it or not. The choice is yours. In my own case I restricted the use of cast bullets out of my .223s to coyote and smaller animals and when deer, goats or larger was the game I opted for a good Jacketed SP or FMJ (if that was “required” for the game afoot).

In the gas guns with 10” or faster twists I used for the larger 4 footed game I preferred the Winchester 64 gr SP loaded over a top load of AA2460 which duplicated the velocity of M855 ammunition. There are other SPs that do as well. I’ve a very nice 4 point Mule Deer hanging over my right shoulder on the wall that was shot with just that load out of my 9” twist AR. I will use a good j bullet for such but that’s just my choice.

Point is it appears you are asking if cast bullets are as effective at full .223 velocities as are the “factory SPs”(?) and the short answer would be if you could push them that fast with hunting accuracy they would be just as good. In reality you can’t so they are not. That is the answer.

Larry Gibson

My longest shot ever on game was a little over 300 yards with a .308 back in 1985. That was the last shot I took with that gun. Then I "discovered" muzzleloaders. I've never looked back except for my last hunt on Molokai where it was insisted upon by the host that I use a 3030 instead of my White. That weekend i shot three deer... one with my longbow, one with that offered 30.30 and one with my .451 White... a grand slam so to speak... :grin: That was the last time I fired a centerfire hunting. With my muzzleloaders my longest "measured" shot was 123 yards. All others over the years have been a very close range... averaging in my opinion... 25-50 yards max.

My hunt with my policeman buddy where he missed a shot, was about 30 yards... had he stayed with me, it would have been a dead mouflon... If you're saying this mold isn't going to produce accurate bullets... so be it... and it'll be up for sale as soon as I receive it. I hunt. I'm not a shooter. I don't use scopes and I don't shoot to see if I can hit something. I don't know the wherewithall of 22 mags, but I do know the wherewithall of a 22LR and in certain hands I'm more than impressed. Those wouldn't be my hands however.

I am fully aware of the fact that longer twists are usually more desireable to spin bullets at high velocity than are shorter ones, but shorter ones are necessary for the stabilization of reduced velocity. In a 55 grain bullet, you are hampered with reduced velocity on two fronts, one is trajectory... and the other is momentum/KE. Neither of these concern me in the manner that I hunt, but accuracy on the other hand is. If this bullet is not capable of refined accuracy, even at 30 yards it becomes problematic... for the manner of a good shot in my opinion relies in great measure to the confidence one has in ones bullet. To me there is no shot without it.

Thank you... Aloha.. :cool:

[Rattus58]

Rattus58

Little background; I’ve been shooting and hunting "game" with the .223/5.56 since '65. I've considerable experience with it in M16/ARs (with 5 different twists), M249s, Mini14s (with all 3 twists), bolt actions and SS rifles along with several Contender pistols. I've killed a lot of different animals from field mice to elk with the .223 cartridge. I've killed all with SPs, HPBTs, FMJBTs and a lot with cast bullets. The jacketed loads out of the rifles ran 2950 fps up through 3400 fps. I have been chronographing loads since '75 so those are actual measured velocities not guestimated ones.

I have been shooting cast bullets out of the .223 upwards of 2200 - 2400 fps (12 - 14" twist barrels) with usable accuracy using alloys that offer expansion. With 9" twist barrels that velocity is most often less than 2000 fps with 20" or shorter barrels. I can tell you right off you will not get a reasonable accuracy, if any accuracy at all, with a 225646 cast of any alloy that offers expansion out of your 18" Mini14 barrel with a 9" twist at anywhere near jacketed bullet velocities. You may, or may not get the accuracy you require for hunting goats and sheep there in Hawaii (assumption of the location based on "aloha") at 2000 fps. More than likely the best accuracy will be at a lower velocity but you may get useable accuracy somewhere around 1900 - 2100 fps so let’s call it that, ok. Some will claim 2300 – 2400 fps with “useable accuracy” out of the faster twists and if the ranges are short you may get away with that. Knowing what the accuracy really is, especially past 100 yards, I will not.

Now I've no problem with using the .223 with jacketed SPs on goats, deer or smaller sheep if one's hunting conditions are that proper bullet placement can be made. On the other hand with cast bullets in the .223 at 2000 fps we are basically shooting close to a .22 WRM. If your shooting conditions and ranges at which you'll be shooting cast bullets as such offer precise bullet placement and you can do that for a clean kill then you won't get an argument from me on whether to do it or not. The choice is yours. In my own case I restricted the use of cast bullets out of my .223s to coyote and smaller animals and when deer, goats or larger was the game I opted for a good Jacketed SP or FMJ (if that was “required” for the game afoot).

In the gas guns with 10” or faster twists I used for the larger 4 footed game I preferred the Winchester 64 gr SP loaded over a top load of AA2460 which duplicated the velocity of M855 ammunition. There are other SPs that do as well. I’ve a very nice 4 point Mule Deer hanging over my right shoulder on the wall that was shot with just that load out of my 9” twist AR. I will use a good j bullet for such but that’s just my choice.

Point is it appears you are asking if cast bullets are as effective at full .223 velocities as are the “factory SPs”(?) and the short answer would be if you could push them that fast with hunting accuracy they would be just as good. In reality you can’t so they are not. That is the answer.

Larry Gibson

My longest shot ever on game was a little over 300 yards with a .308 back in 1985. That was the last shot I took with that gun. Then I "discovered" muzzleloaders. I've never looked back except for my last hunt on Molokai where it was insisted upon by the host that I use a 3030 instead of my White. That weekend i shot three deer... one with my longbow, one with that offered 30.30 and one with my .451 White... a grand slam so to speak... :grin: That was the last time I fired a centerfire hunting. With my muzzleloaders my longest "measured" shot was 123 yards. All others over the years have been a very close range... averaging in my opinion... 25-50 yards max.

My hunt with my policeman buddy where he missed a shot, was about 30 yards... had he stayed with me, it would have been a dead mouflon... If you're saying this mold isn't going to produce accurate bullets... so be it... and it'll be up for sale as soon as I receive it. I hunt. I'm not a shooter. I don't use scopes and I don't shoot to see if I can hit something. I don't know the wherewithall of 22 mags, but I do know the wherewithall of a 22LR and in certain hands I'm more than impressed. Those wouldn't be my hands however.

I am fully aware of the fact that longer twists are usually more desireable to spin bullets at high velocity than are shorter ones, but shorter ones are necessary for the stabilization of reduced velocity. In a 55 grain bullet, you are hampered with reduced velocity on two fronts, one is trajectory... and the other is momentum/KE. Neither of these concern me in the manner that I hunt, but accuracy on the other hand is. If this bullet is not capable of refined accuracy, even at 30 yards it becomes problematic... for the manner of a good shot in my opinion relies in great measure to the confidence one has in ones bullet. To me there is no shot without it.

Thank you... Aloha.. :cool:

[Rattus58]

Rattus58

Little background; I’ve been shooting and hunting "game" with the .223/5.56 since '65. I've considerable experience with it in M16/ARs (with 5 different twists), M249s, Mini14s (with all 3 twists), bolt actions and SS rifles along with several Contender pistols. I've killed a lot of different animals from field mice to elk with the .223 cartridge. I've killed all with SPs, HPBTs, FMJBTs and a lot with cast bullets. The jacketed loads out of the rifles ran 2950 fps up through 3400 fps. I have been chronographing loads since '75 so those are actual measured velocities not guestimated ones.

I have been shooting cast bullets out of the .223 upwards of 2200 - 2400 fps (12 - 14" twist barrels) with usable accuracy using alloys that offer expansion. With 9" twist barrels that velocity is most often less than 2000 fps with 20" or shorter barrels. I can tell you right off you will not get a reasonable accuracy, if any accuracy at all, with a 225646 cast of any alloy that offers expansion out of your 18" Mini14 barrel with a 9" twist at anywhere near jacketed bullet velocities. You may, or may not get the accuracy you require for hunting goats and sheep there in Hawaii (assumption of the location based on "aloha") at 2000 fps. More than likely the best accuracy will be at a lower velocity but you may get useable accuracy somewhere around 1900 - 2100 fps so let’s call it that, ok. Some will claim 2300 – 2400 fps with “useable accuracy” out of the faster twists and if the ranges are short you may get away with that. Knowing what the accuracy really is, especially past 100 yards, I will not.

Now I've no problem with using the .223 with jacketed SPs on goats, deer or smaller sheep if one's hunting conditions are that proper bullet placement can be made. On the other hand with cast bullets in the .223 at 2000 fps we are basically shooting close to a .22 WRM. If your shooting conditions and ranges at which you'll be shooting cast bullets as such offer precise bullet placement and you can do that for a clean kill then you won't get an argument from me on whether to do it or not. The choice is yours. In my own case I restricted the use of cast bullets out of my .223s to coyote and smaller animals and when deer, goats or larger was the game I opted for a good Jacketed SP or FMJ (if that was “required” for the game afoot).

In the gas guns with 10” or faster twists I used for the larger 4 footed game I preferred the Winchester 64 gr SP loaded over a top load of AA2460 which duplicated the velocity of M855 ammunition. There are other SPs that do as well. I’ve a very nice 4 point Mule Deer hanging over my right shoulder on the wall that was shot with just that load out of my 9” twist AR. I will use a good j bullet for such but that’s just my choice.

Point is it appears you are asking if cast bullets are as effective at full .223 velocities as are the “factory SPs”(?) and the short answer would be if you could push them that fast with hunting accuracy they would be just as good. In reality you can’t so they are not. That is the answer.

Larry Gibson

My longest shot ever on game was a little over 300 yards with a .308 back in 1985. That was the last shot I took with that gun. Then I "discovered" muzzleloaders. I've never looked back except for my last hunt on Molokai where it was insisted upon by the host that I use a 3030 instead of my White. That weekend i shot three deer... one with my longbow, one with that offered 30.30 and one with my .451 White... a grand slam so to speak... :grin: That was the last time I fired a centerfire hunting. With my muzzleloaders my longest "measured" shot was 123 yards. All others over the years have been a very close range... averaging in my opinion... 25-50 yards max.

My hunt with my policeman buddy where he missed a shot, was about 30 yards... had he stayed with me, it would have been a dead mouflon... If you're saying this mold isn't going to produce accurate bullets... so be it... and it'll be up for sale as soon as I receive it. I hunt. I'm not a shooter. I don't use scopes and I don't shoot to see if I can hit something. I don't know the wherewithall of 22 mags, but I do know the wherewithall of a 22LR and in certain hands I'm more than impressed. Those wouldn't be my hands however.

I am fully aware of the fact that longer twists are usually more desireable to spin bullets at high velocity than are shorter ones, but shorter ones are necessary for the stabilization of reduced velocity. In a 55 grain bullet, you are hampered with reduced velocity on two fronts, one is trajectory... and the other is momentum/KE. Neither of these concern me in the manner that I hunt, but accuracy on the other hand is. If this bullet is not capable of refined accuracy, even at 30 yards it becomes problematic... for the manner of a good shot in my opinion relies in great measure to the confidence one has in ones bullet. To me there is no shot without it.

Thank you... Aloha.. :cool:

[Rattus58]

QUOTE=Larry Gibson;2213530]Rattus58

Point is it appears you are asking if cast bullets are as effective at full .223 velocities as are the “factory SPs”(?) and the short answer would be if you could push them that fast with hunting accuracy they would be just as good. In reality you can’t so they are not. That is the answer.

Larry Gibson[/QUOTE]

My longest shot ever on game was a little over 300 yards with a .308 back in 1985. That was the last shot I took with that gun. Then I "discovered" muzzleloaders. I've never looked back except for my last hunt on Molokai where it was insisted upon by the host that I use a 3030 instead of my White. That weekend i shot three deer... one with my longbow, one with that offered 30.30 and one with my .451 White... a grand slam so to speak... :grin: That was the last time I fired a centerfire hunting. With my muzzleloaders my longest "measured" shot was 123 yards. All others over the years have been a very close range... averaging in my opinion... 25-50 yards max.

My hunt with my policeman buddy where he missed a shot, was about 30 yards... had he stayed with me, it would have been a dead mouflon... If you're saying this mold isn't going to produce accurate bullets... so be it... and it'll be up for sale as soon as I receive it. I hunt. I'm not a shooter. I don't use scopes and I don't shoot to see if I can hit something. I don't know the wherewithall of 22 mags, but I do know the wherewithall of a 22LR and in certain hands I'm more than impressed. Those wouldn't be my hands however.

I am fully aware of the fact that longer twists are usually more desireable to spin bullets at high velocity than are shorter ones, but shorter ones are necessary for the stabilization of reduced velocity. In a 55 grain bullet, you are hampered with reduced velocity on two fronts, one is trajectory... and the other is momentum/KE. Neither of these concern me in the manner that I hunt, but accuracy on the other hand is. If this bullet is not capable of refined accuracy, even at 30 yards it becomes problematic... for the manner of a good shot in my opinion relies in great measure to the confidence one has in ones bullet. To me there is no shot without it.

Thank you... Aloha.. :cool:

[Rattus58]

Sorry for the multiple posts.... I was dealt a manner of posting treachery by my keyboard... :grin:

[Larry Gibson]

That mould will indeed cast accurate bullets. Problem is the faster twists will necessitate a a reduced velocity to shoot them accurately. The faster the twist the lower the velocity will be when accuracy goes south with cast bullets. A 14" twist will still stabilize that bullet down to 600 - 800 fps BTW. And yes you are correct; the .223 with cast bullets in faster twist barrels is indeed "hampered with reduced velocity on two fronts, one is trajectory... and the other is momentum/KE." If neither are of concern and the ranges short then you may be able to hunt the mouflan and goats with that bullet in the Mini14.

Having hunted feral goats in pretty thick brush in the PNW I found they were very tenacious. A friend tried a couple with the 22 WRF out of a rifle and we only found one. Both were good shots in the heart lung area. The one we found went a long, long ways before laying down. I had a lot better performance with 120 gr HP’d cast bullets at 1850 fps out of my M1 Carbine. All shots were taken under 50 yards BTW. There was a noticeable difference when I switched to my M94 30-30 with 311041HPs at 2050 fps though…..the goats went down very quickly. My 6” barreled 44 magnum with 429421 hard cast at 1300 fps were as effective as the 30 Carbine but not the 30-30. We shot over 40 of those goats so the sample for comparison was enough.

Again though, if you are going to hunt with the Mini14 spring for a box of commercial loads or reload some good SPs. I still recommend the Winchester 64 gr SP if you can find some. Just a recommendation is all and not a condemnation on using the cast.

Larry Gibson

[dverna]

Rattus

You have been here long enough to know that Mr. Gibson is more than qualified to answer your original question. He has not given you the answer you wanted so you get a bit upset. You then add additional information (50 yard maximum ranges) to "justify" your premise. And you are right, at that range a .22lr will kill in the right hands. But it does not make a .22lr a deer or sheep rifle.

Also, bear in mind that others read these posts so we frame our answers in general terms unless the inquiry has identified specific conditions (like really short ranges).

in the end, you will determine what you should do; and please report back as we may all learn something from your experience.

Good luck,

Don Verna

PS: You should be able to go back and delete your multiple posts.

[Rattus58]

Rattus

You have been here long enough to know that Mr. Gibson is more than qualified to answer your original question. He has not given you the answer you wanted so you get a bit upset. You then add additional information (50 yard maximum ranges) to "justify" your premise. And you are right, at that range a .22lr will kill in the right hands. But it does not make a .22lr a deer or sheep rifle.

Also, bear in mind that others read these posts so we frame our answers in general terms unless the inquiry has identified specific conditions (like really short ranges).

in the end, you will determine what you should do; and please report back as we may all learn something from your experience.

Good luck,

Don Verna

PS: You should be able to go back and delete your multiple posts. yeah... well I tried that... and no you can't delete your postes...on this site. 2. I don't know who or what a Larry Gibson is nor do I know who you or what you are. 3. Don't leave your day job... and besides, your couch is uncomfortable... :grin:

[Rattus58]

That mould will indeed cast accurate bullets. Problem is the faster twists will necessitate a a reduced velocity to shoot them accurately. The faster the twist the lower the velocity will be when accuracy goes south with cast bullets. A 14" twist will still stabilize that bullet down to 600 - 800 fps BTW. And yes you are correct; the .223 with cast bullets in faster twist barrels is indeed "hampered with reduced velocity on two fronts, one is trajectory... and the other is momentum/KE." If neither are of concern and the ranges short then you may be able to hunt the mouflan and goats with that bullet in the Mini14.

Having hunted feral goats in pretty thick brush in the PNW I found they were very tenacious. A friend tried a couple with the 22 WRF out of a rifle and we only found one. Both were good shots in the heart lung area. The one we found went a long, long ways before laying down. I had a lot better performance with 120 gr HP’d cast bullets at 1850 fps out of my M1 Carbine. All shots were taken under 50 yards BTW. There was a noticeable difference when I switched to my M94 30-30 with 311041HPs at 2050 fps though…..the goats went down very quickly. My 6” barreled 44 magnum with 429421 hard cast at 1300 fps were as effective as the 30 Carbine but not the 30-30. We shot over 40 of those goats so the sample for comparison was enough.

Again though, if you are going to hunt with the Mini14 spring for a box of commercial loads or reload some good SPs. I still recommend the Winchester 64 gr SP if you can find some. Just a recommendation is all and not a condemnation on using the cast.

Larry Gibson

Didn't see this earlier... forgive me... Actually I'm a muzzleloader hunter. If I was to hunt with this gun I'd want to do it with my own cast bullets. If this isn't going to be feasible I'd just as soon keep it for one of my kids. Thank you for your learned discertations on the .223.

Much Aloha,

Tom