Bottom pour woes

[2shot]

I've had 2 Lee bottom pour furnaces in the last 20 years and in that lenght of time I have always had trouble casting good bullets with them. Is there a secret to getting good filled out boolits when using a bottom pour? I can laddle cast any mold I have and once up to temp just about every boolit is a keeper. With the bottom pour using the same molds about 1/4 of the boolits are keepers. Air bubbles, winkles and just plain not filling out are the norm. I can take that same mold that I just used in the bottom pour and use a laddle and I get perfect boolits.

So what's the secret to getting good boolits from the bottom pour?

Higher temp?
More tin?
Something I'm missing?:shock:

I can understand when casting Minie balls or real large caliber boolits but why can't I get something like the Lyman 358429 to fill out without resorting to my laddle?

2shot

[Glock Junkie]

I just got a new Lee 4-20 Pot and have had great results from it. A setting of 4 1/2 sets my lead temp just right. No leaks from my pot. I have heard about em leaking bad. I know they added a steel handle instead of the wood handle so I wonder if that helps the leaking. I wonder if they have made improvements that I don't know about to the new pots.

[fcvan]

I have used the Lee 10 lb bottom pour since the 1980s and started using dad's Saeco pot back in the 1970s. I bought the Lee because of the price and now own 3; 1 in Colorado, and 2 in California, as I go back and forth. The very first one had the heating element fail because it flat wore out. I ordered a new pot and a replacement heating coil. I was able to repair the old one and will be giving the other one to a buddy who, like me retired, and now has more time for such things. Keep the alloy clean and the Lee pot will run fine but if crud gets in the spout you get the Lee drip-o-matic.

To the question of bottom pour fill out. Back in the 1980s, I read an article about a guy ladle pouring to get the most consistent fill out and most accurate projectiles. I hope to find that article again, it was cut out of the paper. This guy was getting one hole performance with a 30-06 using a barreled action set in a trash can filled with concrete. If anyone remembers this article, or has a copy, that would be great.

In the article, this guy spoke of keeping the temp consistent to remove one variable. He used a large pot heated by propane. He cast at a consistent cadence keeping the mold at a constant temp. The part that got my attention was how he poured. He directed the flow of alloy onto the sprue plate causing the alloy to swirl into the cavity and aid in fill out. Reading that article got me to thinking and ultimately trying to adopt most of those techniques while using a bottom pour furnace.

When I get started I use a couple of simple modifications. 1) I cut out a tin can lid that covers the top of the pot. While the pot is warming up I set 2 molds on that lid so they warm up. 2) I mounted a 3" angle bracket under the pot to help support the weight of the pot, the alloy, and the molds. If you don't, the heating element might break after 25 years due to sagging. Don't ask me how I know this :)

Temp: by preheating the mold things should get off to a good start. When things are at temp I pull the molds off the top, remove the tin lid, flux, and put an ingot on top of the pot rim to preheat. I hold the mold in my left hand with the sprue plate angled to the right slightly. I direct the pour onto the sprue plate so that the stream flows into both cavities at the same time and leave a sizable sprue, approx. 1" x 1.5". The only mold I can't do two cavities at once is the Lee 501-440 RF, that one is just too big to fill both so I fill one, then the other leaving a decent sprue.

I set the mold down while watching the sprue cool. I have my pot sitting on a cookie sheet pan and my Lyman ingot mold is inverted to the left of the pot. The hot mold eventually warms up the ingot mold and cast iron doesn't act like a heat sink. The goal is to keep things from varying too much.

If the sprue cools and hardens immediately, its not at temp. If the sprue cools within 3 to 5 seconds things are going well. I open the mold, invert and the boolits generally fall free onto a folded towel. I use a metal spoon to put the sprue back into the pot. The sprue isn't cold but it isn't molten either. There's no sense (in my mind at least) of letting that thermal energy go to waste. I pick up the boolits while visually inspecting and sort them.

When using two molds I get a good cadence going to keep both molds at temp. I can cast a little hotter when using two as they have more time between filling. When casting the Lyman 225-415 or a hollow point mold I generally just use one mold. HP pins stay hotter and the little 22 boolits don't have much mass to keep the mold at temp.

I mentioned having an ingot on the top of the pot to preheat. If boolits are getting frosty I can either slow down or not preheat the ingot as much. I seem to cast a little faster on cold days which helps keep me at temp too :) Outside air temp doesn't affect the pot so much as the thermostat keeps cycling at the same setting. The mold blocks will cool faster or slower though.

I don't have a thermometer as casting by feel and sight works very well. I want to get one, just to see for myself how consistent I am doing things. I just know that when things are at temp, the alloy flows and fills very well, and the weight of the boolits are very consistent. I hope this has been helpful

[41 mag fan]

2shot if it helps any, I bottom pour and almost always, except for my 311 molds, swirl it on my sprue plate. That's how i found I get my best results.

[41mag]

I'll throw in my .02 for what it's worth, maybe it'll help.

I have had the Lee pot for close to 15 or so years, but I originally got it to pour large surf weights to hold down big baits while shark fishing. I modified it a bit in that I raised it up about 2" or so. In doing so it gave me room for the big weights.

Not that raising it has anything much to do with pouring bullets, but it has helped in that I can see what I am doing MUCH better. I used a piece of 2x2 aluminum square tubing under the back part and 2 pieces of 1/4" O.D. SS tubing to replace the legs. I also used some valve lapping compound to lap in the seat and stem on the spout to a nice mated finish. Even so once it starts to build up any grunge it will still drip a touch. I take care of that however when I clean the pot out.

Now since I have gotten into pouring bullets I am a bit more praticular about what goes in it. Everything is fluxed at least twice before being poured into ingots, and then once in the pot it gets fluxed again using paraffin. I tried the sawdust ting in it once but decided I didn't want to go that route.

I also added a PID to keep the temp stable, and it will usually hold within about 10 degrees once up to temp from start to last drop out of the pot.

When I get ready to pour, I fill the pot with ingots and plug it in. The PID takes over and away we go. I have at this time also set my mold or molds on a small hotplate to pre-heat while the pot is coming up to temp. I figured out where it needed to be set by trial and error and made a couple of marks using a paint pen, so that when the pot is up to what ever temp I set it to, for which ever alloy I am using, all I need to do is start pouring.

I don't have a wide assortment of alloys so I only have a couple of marls on the HP dial for preheating. Once I DO start pouring I usually will cant the mold to one side or the other. This will usually give me a great fill out with no issues. If I am finding wrinkles or such I will shut it down with that mold and move on. This has usually been a sign of either lube contamination or oil still migrating out of the poors of a new mold. Either way usually a quick cleaning once it cools off will eliminate the issue.

Once about every 5 or 6 casting sessions, I will completely drain the pot, and using gloves, pick up the pot and pour out what ever will not flow out of the nipple on the bottom. Once it is empty I cut the power off, and let it cool down. While it's cooling I will take a wooden handled SS parts brush, which looks like a tooth brush, and scrub down the insides really well. I also usually set up a fan so it blows any residue out the back door while I am at it. Once the pot is all scrubbed down and once cool, I use a piece of red scotch brite to fine clean it and get what little bit of stuff might be left in the tighter corners.

Once clean, I check the spout and stem to be sure they are polished up and don't have any crud building up on them. Just a quick polish with some emery cloth on the stem and some scotch brite on the mouth of the spout and it's a done deal.

[fredj338]

I pressure cast, put the spout right on the spru plate. My reject rate is pretty low. It seems to work w/ any alloy, most temps.

[detox]

Drain and clean pot. Then melt alloy, but DO NOT flux melt when using bottom pour. Fluxing just adds more trash and black spots on boollits and will cause voids (think about the old linotype printing machines...no fluxing needed to get perfect letters). Cast between 650 and 675 degrees

Loosen sprue plate so that it just rests on top of mould and swings freely. This will vent the mould better

Preheat mould, but not too hot

Hold mould about 1/8-1/4" away from spout then pour (i pour strait in). I like a fast flow rate, but you may have to adjust to your liking.

The new two pin Lee moulds are not very durable (alignment pins receeding), so be more gentle with them and do not get them too hot.

When ladle casting i flux about every 40 boolits just to put oxidized tin or dross back into melt. Pine sawdust works good as flux when ladle casting or when smelting large batches of lead into ingots.

[2shot]

I think Detox found my problem. Being a laddle caster at heart I always flux and flux often. Most of my rejects are from black spots showing up on my boolits when I use my bottom pour Lee. I've tried swirling the alloy in and also presure casting with the sprue plate up against the nozzle and they didn't work for me. I'll try not fluxing and see how things turn out.

Thanks to all that responded !

2shot

[10x]

I have used a lee bottom pour pot for over twenty years with good results. I have inherited a bottom pour pot that was lightly used but would not cast good bullets.
The pot was emptied and cleaned. The spout was cleaned so all the crude was out of it.
A very clean alloy from wheel weights was put into the pot and heated to temperature.
Molds were cleaned with brake kleen, air dried, lighty cold smoked with a hardwood splinter, then preheated on an electric hotplate with a sheet of 1/4 inch aluminum over the burner and a tin can over the molds to keep the heat in.
When casting the stream is directed into the sprue hole and the sprue puddle itself is at least 2x the volume of the bullet with .22 cal 50 bullets. I try to have as much metal in the sprue as possible. When the the sprue moves to the solid state I will count to ten, twelve, or 15 slowly (depending on bullet weight), or set the mold down and cast a second bullet. I can alternate two molds and get good bullets.
I have found with the lee pots that keeping the hole in the spout as clean as possible increases the RISK of good boolits a great deal...and reduces the rejects considerably.

as for the infernal lee drip. I always set the pot on a cookie sheet. I regard a dripping spout as time to empty the pot and clean the spout, seat, and valve rod face.
I have also noticed that when the pot does start to drip boolits do not cast as well.
Sometimes draining a pound of lead through the spout will flush out what ever is causing the drip.

When casting with a lee pot always watch the lead stream. If it starts to get "thinner" you will have to clean the spout. A thinner lead stream will mean more rejects.
and yes, I have a pot that has had the spout enlarged just a little to fill a big mold faster. It works well on smaller bullets to but you had better be prepared for a big sprue. Overflowing the sprue plate is not a bad thing. Looks messy but sometimes it will give very good boolits.

[44man]

I am a confirmed ladle caster and have been casting something starting with sinkers, for 63 or more years.
I have tried bottom pour many times and refuse to go through the trouble.
My bottom pour pots get a plug in the funny thing on the bottom.

[10x]

I am a confirmed ladle caster and have been casting something starting with sinkers, for 63 or more years.
I have tried bottom pour many times and refuse to go through the trouble.
My bottom pour pots get a plug in the funny thing on the bottom.

I suspect you have identified a major part of the problem.....

[MT Chambers]

It does however, provide a good fix for those pesky drip-o-matics.

[NVScouter]

#1 Unscrew the 1/4 sheetmetal screws.
#2 remove wire arm and plunger
#3 Drill out spiggot and insert new self tapping screw.
#4 Use ladle.

I'm serious I finaly had it with my bottom pour and went with this and a new Lyman ladle.

[popper]

Don't have problem with bottom pour pot. You can flux, just have to stir and scrape to get the junk to float to the top where you can skim off. I pour 1/2" directly into the mold and don't have fill out problems. 2,4 & 6X moulds.

[LNK]

Check your flow rate, might have some dirt in the bottom of the pot and partially clogging the spout. I take a piece of brazing rod and make a hook and push in against the flow when that happens. Slow flow will give you bad boolits...

LNK

[Mike W1]

When I was casting .30's I found that it was a definite to pour a steady stream into the center of the sprue hole. I had quite a few moulds at the time and they all liked that method. Now my setup is geared to that. I'll be the first to admit I never got consistent bullets with a Lee mould but have never had trouble with any of my Lymans but I'm sure with time probably could have licked them. IMHO if you can't get good bullets with a bottom pour something, maybe small, is faulty in ones technique. Have several articles that really helped me on file and you could PM me if you'd like a looksee.

[Three44s]

You definitely need to keep a bottom pour clean.

I run my WW's through a two melt clean up before I introduce them to a bottom pour to reduce re-contamination of the pot.

I do not use fluxing agents such as Marvelux ........ I consider that product a "cruel hoax" against casters.


And, I find different molds have different likes and dislikes ........ some are pressure casters, some are swirlers ........... some require a straight pour ........... some require a large dollop of sprue metal to encourage a slower freeze up.

They are like a bunch of children ...... all different ....... you gotta figure them out.

When you see wrinkles, it means you have oil in your mold ..... or the melt or mold or both are too cold.

Three 44s

[fredj338]

I think Detox found my problem. Being a laddle caster at heart I always flux and flux often. Most of my rejects are from black spots showing up on my boolits when I use my bottom pour Lee. I've tried swirling the alloy in and also presure casting with the sprue plate up against the nozzle and they didn't work for me. I'll try not fluxing and see how things turn out.

Thanks to all that responded !

2shot
FWIW, I have fluxed in the pot with no ill affects. If you use clean alloy, stirring with a wooden stick is all the flux you need. Make sure the pot stays more than half full too. It helps deliver a more uniform flow IMO. Never drain your BP pot, never. All that does is put crud into the spout. My LEE BP don't drip either.

[gwpercle]

#1 Unscrew the 1/4 sheetmetal screws.
#2 remove wire arm and plunger
#3 Drill out spiggot and insert new self tapping screw.
#4 Use ladle.

I'm serious I finaly had it with my bottom pour and went with this and a new Lyman ladle.
Do you put the screw in from the outside of the pot or screw it in from the inside? I have mine apart now and was trying to figure out a way to plug it without welding up the hole...no welder and I don't know anyone with one. I was thinking of using a screw but was afraid it might leak. Me and bottom pouring are not working out. I do fine with a Lyman ladle, I just need a little larger pot than the 4 lb melter I have. thought the 10 lb bottom pour woud be the answer...It doesn't work for me so I got to go back to ladle casting .
Gary

[bangerjim]

Pressure casting solved my promlems on a tricky mold and now I use for ALL my molds!
Perfect pours from the beginning on even the stubborn ones.

And I use beeswax to REDUCE the tin back into the soup in the bottom pours. Have never had a leak or black sawdust in my boolits. Wax reduces the tin back in without leaving a bunch of burnt wood crapola in there. And it floats!

Sawdust is OK for smelting filthy dirty COWW's but you SHOULD be using CLEAN ingots in your casting pot, and do not need to wood flux, only reduce the tin back in with beeswax.

bangerjim

[paul h]

(snip)

And, I find different molds have different likes and dislikes ........ some are pressure casters, some are swirlers ........... some require a straight pour ........... some require a large dollop of sprue metal to encourage a slower freeze up.

They are like a bunch of children ...... all different ....... you gotta figure them out.

When you see wrinkles, it means you have oil in your mold ..... or the melt or mold or both are too cold.

Three 44s

My experience as well.

I like to cast hot and fast with a bottom pour. Rarely does too hot cause a problem, but but too cool the problems are legion.

Like any skill, it takes practice to figure out casting from a bottom pour furnace. Try running the heat up a bit higher and see if that fixes things.

Since I've only cast with a bottom pour I had to put in the time to figure out what technique worked for me. Once I get the feel for a mold my cull rate will drop to the 10% rate, but I can have upwards of 50% cull if I haven't figured out the mold or just can't seem to get a cadence going.

[madsenshooter]

Thanks for all the tips guys. I gave up on little drippy a couple years ago, but I have an Eagan mold which wants to have the alloy poured in. Don must've made it for someone with a bottom pour as the vent lines are thicker and deeper than those I've seen on some of his other molds. Trying to pressure cast with my ladle gives me a bullet I have to de-bone! Alloy flows out into the vent lines and the conical comes out looking like a stickleback minnow. I tried pouring the alloy in with a ladle, then I have fill out problems, especially of the base, which defeats the purpose of a nose pour mold. Tried altering the temp of both mold and alloy too. I might have to dig little drippy out and see if I can get any results with it.

84637

[pdawg_shooter]

I have always, without exception got my best bullets with a ladle. This is with any of my molds

[codgerville@zianet.com]

Plus 1 on that, pdawg. Finally took the rod assembly out of my old Saeco M-24, plugged the spout, use a Lyman dipper. Tried bottom pour several times, not good.

[pdawg_shooter]

I have 3 bottom pour pots...all plugged.

[Duckiller]

There are ladle pourers and there are bottom pourers. Sir I believe you are a ladle pourer. I have tried several time and never have been able to cast a boolit with a ladle. Most of the fime the lead freezes in the ladle. Once I get the melt and molds to a proper temperature I have never had a problem with a bottom pour. I pour with a 1" gap between pot and mold. I pour with nozzle inserted into mold. i pour with the nozzle just touching the mold. All methods produce good boolits. If boolits aren't filling out, turn up the heat. I use clip on wheel weights. If you are worried alloy composition add a couple of 41/44/45 cases of premium shot to 10 lbs of lead. Tin costs an awful lot at Home Depot.

[mpmarty]

How do you get a decent sprue pile to feed the shrink when pressure pouring? All I wind up with is a little tiny fluff of lead in the sprue hole.

[myg30]

If you leave a small gap between the mold and spout, the over flow is your puddle. Different molds need a different technique of bottom pour for me. I find that I may have to increase the flow or decrease the flow depending on the mold size and mold material.
The numbers on the lee pot mean nothing in regard to temp. Its just a reference ! The amount of lead in the pot will change your pour temp.
I fill the pot with clean ingots and the dial on MAX. I warm the molds on top of the pot on a hot day or use a hot plate on a cold day to pre heat the molds. When im able to pour, I start with a small gap between the mold and spout. If I have any trouble then I may lower the mold some and see if that works. If the flow is to slow I open the flow screw to get more or less if needed.
When I START TO GET FROSTYS... THEN I Lower the temp a little and as the level gets lower I also lower the temp.
I Break the law !! I put my spruces back into the pot as I get a small pile. A little at a time does not change the melt temp enough to give me troubles. When an ingot needs to be added then I have to INCREASE the temp again and wait for the pot to heat.
Tilting the mold, straight pour, rocking the mold as you pour they all work with different molds and time and perseverance will give you the method that's going to be trouble free for that mold.
If after several pours, I still have wrinkles then I blast the hot mold with Brake Cleaner [ away from everything], Re-heat and try again.

This worked fer me. Good luck and be safe. Always ware your protective gear.

Mike