Pedersoli Enfield Musket sights Argh!!!!!!!

[omgb]

I bought a new 2 band Ped. Enfield musket from Cabelas. The gun is very well made and worth every penny of it's $750+ price tag. However, the sights are next to useless for me. The 100 yard setting coupled with the low front sight make it impossible for me to get my cheek down low enough on the stock to even see the wretched tiny rear blade. 20 shots and I could not hit the paper at 50 or 100 yards. Now, when I lifted the ladder to the 400 yard position and shot at the gong at 400 yards, I hit the sucker every time; boom, 1 mississippi, 2 mississippi, ...dong!

The gun can shoot, but I can't shoot it with those sights. I plan to replace the fron sight (sweated on, no windage) with one that will allow me to change blade heights and see if I can't get something working.

For the record, I don't blame Pedersoli; this is a dang close replica and the sights are what it originally came with in 1860. I have a Zoli Zuave with the same issue only not so bad. The Zoli sights are visible but they shoot way to the left at 100 yards. Again, they aren't windage adjustable either. So, I put some 1893 Krag sights on it and athose were great until my eyes went south. Now the knotch is way too small to really use. The little peep works well though...at 200 yards but not 100.

[59sharps]

do not take the front sight block off, unless you plan to dovetail a new one in. Just file it flat to the block, cut a grove lenght wise. soider in pcs of tall flat stock, brass or what ever you like. then file to where you want it. for windage you can fill the rear sight w/ jb weld and cut a new notch, or one of several peep sight mods if you like a peep sight drill hole in the ladder slide. or cut the v off and soider a bar on and drill.
Oh yea on the zolie you can get some windage. flip up the leaf. there is a 2 pin screw. loosen it you should be able to move it hold in place retighten it not sure you will get enough. you can buy a blank L leaf from S & S and cut your own notch. nice thing about the L no play in it whaen you flip it up.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Yepper! When you buy a reproduction musket you better make sure the stock architecture is acceptable to you. For a good precision reproduction, try to find the original military sighting doctrine for the rifle sights to understand how they used them in the day. Don't be afraid once these first two are understood to file the notch in the RS or replace the FS blade to accomodate your eyes. Make sure everything in the sighting system has as close to "0" slop as possible.

BvT

[Boz330]

I had the same problem with a Dixie 2 band. I lowered the stock profile to fit me and refinished the stock. later on I added a dovetailed front sight and a vernier tang sight.

Bob

[fgd135]

My new Pedersoli 1853 (3-band) Enfield shoots to point of aim at 50 and 100 yards consistently with issue sights. There is no harm however in adding a tall front sight and/or some kind of modified rear sight leaf. I added a peep-type skirmisher rear sight and a tall front sight to a reproduction Richmond rifle, which was a big help in getting it on target.

[omgb]

I t looks as if I may have to spend at least $100 to 150 to get a dovetail cut here in socal and then another $25 or so for the new sight blade.

[Boz330]

Wow that is just plain ridiculous. You might try Buckshot, I think he has a small machine shop and IIRC lives in Socal. You can do it by hand if you are patient and mechanically inclined. Look over on the Gunsmithing section, I believe there is a sticky about doing just that.

Here you go. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?33233-Cutting-Dovetails-by-KSCO

Bob

[omgb]

I may try changing the rear sight first and see if that makes life easier before i get all excited about cutting and milling etc.

[varsity07840]

I bought a new 2 band Ped. Enfield musket from Cabelas. The gun is very well made and worth every penny of it's $750+ price tag. However, the sights are next to useless for me. The 100 yard setting coupled with the low front sight make it impossible for me to get my cheek down low enough on the stock to even see the wretched tiny rear blade. 20 shots and I could not hit the paper at 50 or 100 yards. Now, when I lifted the ladder to the 400 yard position and shot at the gong at 400 yards, I hit the sucker every time; boom, 1 mississippi, 2 mississippi, ...dong!

The gun can shoot, but I can't shoot it with those sights. I plan to replace the fron sight (sweated on, no windage) with one that will allow me to change blade heights and see if I can't get something working.

For the record, I don't blame Pedersoli; this is a dang close replica and the sights are what it originally came with in 1860. I have a Zoli Zuave with the same issue only not so bad. The Zoli sights are visible but they shoot way to the left at 100 yards. Again, they aren't windage adjustable either. So, I put some 1893 Krag sights on it and athose were great until my eyes went south. Now the knotch is way too small to really use. The little peep works well though...at 200 yards but not 100.

It's not the sights. It's the stock configuration and alot of Enfield shooter's have your problem. My understanding is that the Pedersoli stock is very close to the original. Never owned an Enfield, always an original Springfield buff.

Duane

[HARRYMPOPE]

My PH 1858 also is hard to get my cheek down on.I got used to it and holding "1/2 sight" I am on at 100 with sights as they came.The British I talked to told me that the sights were correct and Americans just aim too high.

[Fly]

Will a Springfield shoot as accerate as the Enfield?I'm not trying to start a fight here, at all.I own nether, but some
day I would like to get one or the other.

Fly:veryconfu

[fouronesix]

This thread got my curiosity up. I don't have a problem getting a decent cheek weld with any of the muskets on the minimum sight settings. My problem has always been the minimum zeros are usually at least 100 yards with some much farther. Plus the crude nature of the sights leaves something to be desired for accurate shooting.

I decided to measure the difference in comb heights between two of the most common- A British P53 and a US M1861. Don't have a Pedersoli repro so no info on that.

At the most common location of cheek weld for me, 1/2 to 2/3 forward on the comb, I measured the distance from minimum sight line to top of comb. The P53 measured 1 7/8". The M1861 measured 2". I don't know how much difference 1/8" makes? If you creep up the stock when shooting, the distance (clearance) will be less and if you hold well back then the distance will be more. Both the PH53 and the M1861 had about the same amount of angle of comb drop- by measurement.

Photo shows how I measured and the ruler is where my average cheek weld is.
The straight edge is at the minimum sight line. A US M1861 is used in the photo.

[omgb]

70386I have pretty much decided that taller front sight will "cure" my problem. Now the question is how to do it. Dixie Gun Works sells a "sniper sight" that slips over the end of the barrel and seems a tad taller. It does give a cross-hair section that just might help. It was $39 so I ordered one. We'll see how it goes. If not, I may build a sight with JB weld just to see if it makes a difference. If it does, then maybe I'll swap the whole front blade assembly

[59sharps]

Will a Springfield shoot as accerate as the Enfield?I'm not trying to start a fight here, at all.I own nether, but some
day I would like to get one or the other.

Fly:veryconfu

every bit as well. I shot a P-H 3 bander and musketoon for a long time. Problem I had and others too w a lot of shooting they bite the cheek a lot. mine to he point it wouls swell up. do not have that problem now I shoot a 2 band colt and a sharps carbine or CS Richmond Carbine.

[iron brigade]

springfields are more comfortable to shoot because of the drop. I have two Enfields also and you have to really cheek them but they are accurate. I prefer my 1864 springfield Bridesburg contract rifle. has a Hoyt lined barrel and is a tack driver. one skirmisher I know replaced the rear sight on his Enfield musketoon with a peep sight. there are many variables in shooting these things, sizing of the minie's, lead powder, powder charge, different minie's. my 1864 likes the old 575602 but nothing else. my Enfields like the hodgdon or wadcutter minie. muskets are a strange brew. wait til you get a smoothbore! HA!

[ChrisPer]

My friend bought one and we couldnt print in the black at 25m on a 6 o'clock hold on the pistol card. I made a higher foresight like this:

72282

1) Cut a bar down to the same size as the foresight base
2) make a saddle to go over the original foresight
3) cut the bar down to foresight blade thichness with a bench grinder and files
4) Having worked out the height I want to raise the original, measure from the foresight blade height and add the raise amount
5) cut to height, file to profile and cold blue
6) Clean with acetone and fix on to the original foresight with 5 minute epoxy.

Edit later: The 5 minute epoxy came off wiht the boiling water for cleaning. Will now pin or solder it.

[Southron]

Dear Fly:

Regarding your question about the accuracy of the Enfields VS the Springfields:

In 1862 The Confederate Army of Northern Virginia conducted a series of advanced tests to determine the answer to your question. The arms were all in very good condition, used good ammunition and were fired "off the bench" by experienced marksmen.

The results were:

Out to 500 Yards, almost ALL Rifles & Rifle-Muskets were equally accurate-WITH TWO MAJOR EXCEPTIONS:

The Enfield P-1858 and the Enfield P-1860 Army Short Rifle, two barrel band rifles were ACCURATE OUT TO 1000 YARDS! In other words, those two Enfield rifles had TWICE the RANGE of all the others (including the P-53 Enfield three band rifle-musket.) This was due to the 1 in 48" Twist which kept the Minie Ball stabilized out to the longer ranges. Note: The best accuracy of all was when there arms used British made Enfield ammunition.

Both arms used the same barrel, i.e., a 33 inch long, "Heavy" barrel with 5 Land & Groove Rifling, Progressive Depth Rifling and the "Magic" (my description) 1 in 48" Twist. That is why the preferred arm of choice to issue to Sharpshooters in the Army of Northern Virginia was the P-58 Naval Rifle and the P-60 Army Short Rifles.

Matter of fact, in the late 1850's and 1860's the British NRA sponsored target matches that members of the British Army and civilians could compete in. By the early 1860's ANY COMPETITOR that used either a P-58 Naval Rifle or a P-60 Army Short Rifle had their final match score REDUCED 10% because the P-58 Naval Rifle and P-60 Army Short Rifle were known to be more accurate than the Long P-53 Enfield.

Hopefully, this answers your questions about which arms were the most accurate.

[Southron]

Dear Ombg:

Congratulations on your purchase of a Pedersoli P-58 Naval Rifle. You have purchased probably the best replica Enfield to ever be on the market. Pedersoli has perfected the process of making highly accurate rifle barrels using the "Button Method" of rifling. Their Gibbs Rifles often win the 1,000 Yard Matches at Oak Ridge. Having accurized a half dozen Enfield Naval Rifles over the past 40 odd years, I can tell you exactly what needs to be done:

(1) Glass Bed the barrel, including the breech and tang. [Enfields shoot best with a TIGHT Tang Screw.]

I have yet to find a replica Enfield with a decent bedding job from the factory. The factories seem to always cut an oversize barrel channel that allows the barrel to "flop around" during the firing and recoil cycle, thus reducing accuracy. To be fair to Pedersoli, I haven't worked on their guns yet-just Euroarms, Parker-Hale and Armi-Sport Enfields.

2. Polish the INSIDE of the lock plate to a high polish. I generally stop when I can see the reflection of my face in the back side of the lockplate. To do this, you must have a 1500 (and higher) Grit grade Emery Cloth available from your local hardware store. For a "Sanding Block" I use a piece of steel that is ground "Flat" to wrap the Emery Paper around.

3. Polish the parts of the lock that rub against each other! All of this polishing does two things. (A) It not only reduces the trigger pull but also (B) reduces your "Lock Time" which enhances accuracy.

WARNING- Do not mess with either the Nose of the Sear or the Notches in the Tumbler. If you change these angles you can end up easily with a lock that catches of "Half-Cock" when you attempt to fire it. You can grind down the Sear Spring just a little to lighten your "Trigger Pull." After you finish, lubricate your lock parts with a high grade lubricant. Most likely, you will end up with a 3 to 5 pound trigger pull. N-SSA rules require a MINIMUM Trigger Pull of 3 Pounds.

4. Modifying Your Sights:

Order a DOVETAILED FRONT SIGHT from S & S Firearms:

http://www.ssfirearms.com/proddetail.asp?prod=58S120A

Technically it is a Springfield front sight, but the early '55 Springfield Front sights were copies of the Enfield front sights anyway.

NOTE OF EXPERIENCE- Over the decades I tried several different methods of modifying a front sight including: Filing down the blade to the the top of the front sight block and then, using a hack saw blade to cut a channel so the bottom of a taller front sight could be soldered into the channel of the block. Filing down the left or right side of the taller front sight to adjust "Windage," etc.,

Based on some bad experiences (like a sight blade falling off the barrel during a Musket Team Match) I have come to the conclusion the BEST WAY to do things right is simply DOVETAIL a new front sight into your barrel. IN OTHER WORDS, DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME.

5. When your S & S Front Sight comes in, flip it upside down and clamp it into the vise of your (or a friends) Drill Press. Drill THREE SHALLOW HOLES in the base of the upside down sight.

6. Fill those holes with Silver Solder.

7. After the sight has cooled down, then use a file to file the BOTTOM of the sight base flat again. In other words, the silver solder in the holes in the sight base will be flush with the rest of the bottom of the sight base.

8. Then take the barrel out of the stock and along with the front sight-head to a competent gunsmith (or friend) with a Milling Machine.

9. If you hate that d*mn Enfield Semi-Buckhorn Rear Sight with the "V" notch as much as I do, then loosen the screw holding the REAR SIGHT SPRING in place and remove both screw and spring. Put them up as you will need them later. Note that unlike the Springfield with the rear sight screw removed, the Enfield rear sight WILL NOT COME OFF THE BARREL. That is because the Enfield rear sight is silver soldered to the barrel.

10. Then drift out the pin holding the Ladder Rear Sight to the rest of the rear sight assembly.

11. When you arrive at the shop of the COMPETENT (with a Milling Mchine) Gunsmith of Friend, have him heat (with a propane torch) the factory front sight and then knock or pull it off with a pair of Vise Grip pliers.

12. Give him the S & S Front Sight and let him cut the dovetail for the new front sight where the old front sight was.

13. Install the new Dovetailed Front Sight.

14. Have him put the Ladder Rear Sight in his Mill and mill off the buckhorns on both sides of the Ladder Rear Sight.

15. Have your friend or gunsmith mill a narrow channel into the shoulder of the rear sight. The channel should be just wide enough so a piece of old hacksaw blade will fit down in the channel.

16. Then take a small piece of hacksaw blade and file/grind it into a small rectangle that will fit into the rear sight channel. Solder it in and then cut a narrow "Partridge Notch" into it with a Dremel Tool. Then re-install the ladder in the rear sight of your Enfield. Congratulations-You now have a nice "Partridge Notch" Rear Sight.

17. Re-assemble you run and head for the range. Shoot many different loads and bullet combinations to find the one that delivers the SMALLEST GROUP OFF THE BENCH. I highly recommend you size and weigh all of your bullets.

18. Since we know which load shoots the smallest group, NOW we intend to adjust the point of impact to coincide with the point-of-aim.

IMPORTANT***IMPORTANT***IMPORTANT:

THE LACK OF AN ENFIELD'S STOCK DROP CAN BE CURED BY "SETTING UP" YOUR ELEVATION SO YOUR AIM IS "DEAD ON" FOR 50 YARDS WHEN THE LADDER REAR SIGHT IS SET ON THE "2" OR "3" SHOULDER OF THE REAR SIGHT. THIS WILL NECESSITATE KEEPING A HIGH FRONT SIGHT.

19. Let's start by adjusting our Windage. ALWAYS KEEP IN MIND THE "F.O.R.S." RULE: To move the point of impact of our bullets to the left or right, we must MOVE THE FRONT SIGHT IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION WE WANT OUR POINT OF IMPACT TO MOVE. So, by shooting off the bench and tapping the front sight left and right in the dovetail, we can adjust our Windage to ZERO.

20. When you are 100% satisfied that your Windage is "ZERO," then light a propane torch and throw some heat on the base of your front sight. Remember that silver solder you put in the drilled holes in the bottom of the front sight base? It will melt and run- "locking" the front sight in place in the Dovetail. This also fulfils the N-SSA rule that Front Sights MUST BE SOLDERED IN PLACE.

Now adjusting your Enfields Elevation:

21. Now depending on what "Sock Drop Preference" you have-place the Ladder Rear Sight slide in either the bottom of the sight [the "1" Elevation position], on the ladder slide on the shoulder of the "2" Elevation position or the shoulder of the "3" Elevation position.

22. IF you are lucky, the "3" or "2" Elevation position will make your sight's Elevation "Dead On" for 50 Yards. IF not, you can file DOWN the height of your front sight to bring the Point Of Impact UP to hit the Bull's Eye.

23. You will find that if your Enfield is hitting "Dead On" at 59 yards with target loads (45 to 55 Grains of FFFg black powder) most likely, by moving the slider of the ladder rear sight UP to the NEXT shoulder, then your sight setting Elevation will be either "Dead On" for 100 yards or very close to it.

CONGRATULATIONS! You have a "National Match Enfield" which is very accurate. If you can do your part, then your rifle will win you bucket fulls of medals in competition!!!

IMPORTANT NOTE: Since the Pedersoli Enfield uses a "Button Rifled" barrel YOU MUST SIZE YOUR MINIE BALLS TO BE NO SMALLER THAN 2 THOU OF AN INCH UNDER YOUR BORE DIAMETER FOR BEST ACCURACY. WEIGH ALL OF YOUR MINIE BALLS. Hold them into "Plus or Minus" ONE grain in weight.

Cast them out of ONLY Pure Lead. Recommend you replace the factory nipple with a AAmpco Nipple sold by either Dixie Gun Works or House of Muskets. These nipples are made out of Beryllium and will outlast and out shoot a steel nipple. Best of all, they don't have a tendency to rust in place.

NOW GO AND HAVE SOME FUN WITH YOUR RIFLE, WIN MEDALS IN COMPETITION AND AMAZE YOUR FRIENDS.

[Gunor]

Southron,

Picture of the rear sight?

Thanks

[ChrisPer]

Southron, that sure sounds like you build a very accurate rifle.

I know you know this from your other sites, but for any beginners, that treatment makes it impossible for you or a future owner to use that rifle for the military class in MLAIC or a host of affiliated national and international matches. The advice on bedding if you are not to destroy the 'as-issued' character is to use shims of brown paper; no bedding compound may be used. The only permissible mod to the sights is a higher foresight of similar shape.

At this link, there are suggestions within the limits of the more historical rules.
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/firearms/british/enfield/management.htm

[Afro408]

Hi omgb. I know this is an old thread, but I stumbled across it in a search for images of sporting sights for my recent purchase of an 1858navy Enfield, armi sport replica. Like most I can only use the std sights if I put the rear sight on the 200yd setting and hold 12" low at 50! If I may, I would like to share my solution to this problem.
I made a front sight ramp and milled a hole in from the bottom, so it fits over the existing sight, then blued and glued it to the barrel with metal filled epoxy.
248607
248605

248606

The rear sight is from an old Winchester Model 70 and is a good height match for the front. I had to raise both sights by about 7/16". Now I can comfortably get onto the sights.

You will also notice the muzzle protector/rod guide. It's machined from a piece of Fallow deer antler.

[john.k]

Best to make a rod from 1/2" wood curtain rod,walnut preferably,and put a knob on it...........two reasons ,one is the replica rod is a tempting target for light fingers,...Second ,its too short,and cant be seen easily before blowing it downrange.

[Afro408]

G'day john.k Pleased to meet you. :) I'll stick with the military rod and what else I've done to it is to make a small scalloped extension that fits the threaded end, just to give a bit more grip and to cover the sharp threads. (already cut myself on them) I will never be visiting a busy range, like say Belmont complex ( where I used to shoot) so light fingers won't be a problem. You'll probably remember John Michel? He had three pointers stolen from there when he was chief RO. :(