454 Casull over 44 Magnum?

[vmathias]

I think I have pretty much narrowed my search down for a new Lever Action rifle. Looking at many reviews it seems the Rossi is a very good option (not anywhere near the issues I have heard with the new Remlins) in the price I want to pay for a brush gun. I am torn between the 454 Casull or the 44 mag. I do know the 454 has quite a bit more power in standard loads but will it make that much of a difference with cast only loads out out 100 yards? Keep in mind that I will want to use this for up to bear sized game at or under 100. Opinions?? P.s. my apologies as I am sure this topic has been beat to death already. :-)

[Shuz]

You mention price for a brush gun. I'm sure you'll find it much less costly to own and shoot a .44 mag than it is a .454 Casull. The .44 mag will do very well at the ranges and game you're looking at.

[RobS]

If you are wanting to go all out then the 454 Casull will definitely have the upper end. I own both a 454 and 45 Colt Rossi and to be honest I shoot more (Ruger Only/TC) type power loads for the 454 Casull Rossi and plinkers from the wife's 45 Colt Rossi even though her's will take the upper end 45 Colt loads. With cast boolits at 300+ grains that I shoot and at 30-32K pressures they rival 44 magnum rounds. If you go heavier in the 350 grain area the 45 Colt from a Rossi 92 action is going to exceed the 44 and with less pressures.

If you have a 44 magnum revolver then there is a reason to lean that direction. Should you have a 45 Colt revolver I wouldn't feel too under gunned with a Rossi 92 in 45 Colt either as they will easily take the 32K pressures and push out 300-325 grain cast boolits in excess of 1400 fps and with 360 grainers you would be looking at 1350 fps or so and this is all under 30K pressures.

Should you be looking at another caliber all together then the 454 Casull will give you a wide range of velocities. With a bunch of H110 and a 310 grain slug I can run in the 1700 almost 1800 fps range.

[snaketail]

For what its worth - I bought the .454 Rossi simply because I can find ammo for it locally. I'm in a small market, and .44 mag/special is always "on order". In a 20" barrel the recoil from the .454 is not that bad, and I would have no issues using it on black bear. Mine is still fairly new and I'm noticing that it is slowly getting better at feeding/ejecting the more I shoot it. I read that I should rack the action "strongly" and the feed/ejection problems will be less evident... working the action slow is currently OK, but could be better.

I use mine for Cowboy Silhouette and shoot .45 Colt with either 230gr or 255gr. loads. The rifle is accurate out to 200 yards. But, I'd stay under 100 on any game shot (@ 50 yards the energy level is amazing!). And I would have no problem on any game up to elk size - if the range were right.

The one thing I don't like about my Rossi is the wood. It is an odd red color and a rather soft wood. I'll be refinishing mine soon.

[Shooter]

One tends to run out of case capacity in the .44, think of the 454 as a .45-70 short.

[pistolman44]

I have a Marlin 44 mag and a Marlin (Remlin) in 45-70, I always choose the 45-70 for the brush gun especially where bear are involved. And use the 405 grain cast bullet. Not saying that the 44 mag won't do the job, I have killed deer with both but prefer the 45-70 for brush.

[rainyday]

a friend of mine has a 454 casual. it definatly is a great round. the only downfall I been told from my friend is it wears out the brass faster with max powder

[jmort]

Not critical. Best advice is get one to match your handgun, if you have one. I would go with .45 Colt or .44 mag. A 250/255 grain SWC will shoot through most any critter on a broadside at around 950 FPS out of a handgun, and you will be beyond that, so how much energy do you need? The .454 will be hard on the M92 action, even though it is very strong.

[DougGuy]

Bear sized game in PA can be well over 500lbs sometimes! The all time state record is over 600! That's a BIG BEAR!

I am a big fan of the .45 Colt, simply because it can do more than the .44 magnum and do it with lower pressures and heavier boolits. That makes me jaded already I guess but not really. Do you handload? If you do, that alone would make the .454 more affordable to shoot. If not, you have to consider the availability of off the shelf ammo, and it is a LOT easier to feed a .44 than the .454 or .45 Colt. Difficult to find decent Ruger Only hunting loads for the .45 Colt, you pretty much gotta handload them.

Either load you mentioned will take a large bear, obviously the .454 would be the better choice for an animal weighing over 500lbs but for smaller bear and deer, the .44 magnum would seem to be the more practical and affordable caliber.

[OnHoPr]

The 454 should push a heavier boolit faster than the 44 which should provide deeper penetration in hunting situations. Plinkers or trigger time loads can always be kept on the softer side for case and powder consumption along with comfortability. The 454 should also be manageable at the shoulder.

[runfiverun]

you can load the 454 down to 45 schofield loads, you can't go above 44 mag with the 44 mag.
the price of 454 brass is up there a way's though.
I use the same load in my 44 mag and 45 colt rossi's and boolit weights within 5 grains of each other.
the 44 boolit is longer.
any of them will go 16-1700 fps with a plain base boolit.
my 44 is more accurate and prettier than my 45.
I have a 20" carbine in 45 colt that is lighter and easier to carry all day.
but then again I have a model 94 in 44 mag with a 16" barrel.
do I need much more "power" than the 44 or 45?
if the answer is yes I have the 375 win and 45/70 available one is faster and one shoots a heavier boolit.
the 454 falls in between there,a little more than one, a little less than something else.
but in the area where you start needing gas checks for not much more on game performance.
besides the 45 colt in a lever gun matches the casull in a revolver without trying too hard.

[BRobertson]

I have both cartridges(.44 and .454) in hand guns, and the .44 in a Marlin.
I have hunted extensively with the .44 in a handgun. Don't think you need more penetration than a .44, with proper heavy cast boolits, for hunting ANYTHING in this country!!!!
I personally consider the .454 a special use load, preferably with 260 gr Noslers, loaded to 2000. I will be using it for some upcoming
sheep and mt. goat hunts, here in Alaska.
Although, both of my sheep I have taken here were inside of 50 yds, and my S&W 6" 29 and Ruger 7 " Redhawk did just great!!
Goats are a LOT tougher than our sheep, and are way more challenging to hunt, but I have taken several with my .44s over the years

I would be willing to hunt anything on earth with a .44 revolver, with the proper loads,

Bob

[fcvan]

Dan Walker posted an excellent and very detailed report of his Africa hunt using cast boolits. His planning, preparation, and load development was detailed and most informative.

"Both leverguns wear Williams peep sights. The win 94 trapper(45Colt) will be used for the warthog. I feed it HAMMER boolits over 18 grains of 2400. Haven't seen a critter yet that could stand one of them through the shoulders. The Marlin 336CS(35Remington) will be shooting Ranch Dog 190 grainers over max charges of H335. I don't imagine we will have to look very hard for the impala and Gemsbok after one of these boolits punch through their shoulders. "

After the hunt, he posted links to the video of his hunts and also described the boolit performance. This certainly made a believer out of me concerning the performance of the 45 Colt as a hunting rifle cartridge. Here is the link

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?135266-Africa!!&highlight=africa

If you choose the .454 and load it down to 45 Colt +P or 'Ruger only' performance loads you will have the benefit of lower pressure due to the increased case volume. To be honest, I am biased toward the 45 Colt. I have an 8 3/8" S&W M57 .41 and a 20" Marlin 1894C to match. The .41 is a great cartridge capable of fantastic performance. After reading here about various folks using 45 Colt hunting loads in revolvers and carbines I took the plunge.

I was able to pick up a NEF 1871 Classic Carbine in 45 Colt and started working with various loads.

69720

Many folks have suggested reaming the chamber to accept the .454 cartridge. I quickly learned the crescent steel butt plate is quite efficient at transferring energy from the weapon to the shoulder with minimal loss. Loads from 200 to 300 grains at 45 Colt +P are quite devastating on targets but not too bad for the shoulder. I was also able to pick up a Vaquero in 45 Colt which readily shoots +P loads just fine.

In all honesty, I have little experience with the .44 Magnum as my wife has only had hers a year. I will likely get her a lever gun to go along with it. Of course, I will have to shoot it a bunch while doing load development. Oh darn.

[vmathias]

Bear sized game in PA can be well over 500lbs sometimes! The all time state record is over 600! That's a BIG BEAR!

I am a big fan of the .45 Colt, simply because it can do more than the .44 magnum and do it with lower pressures and heavier boolits. That makes me jaded already I guess but not really. Do you handload? If you do, that alone would make the .454 more affordable to shoot. If not, you have to consider the availability of off the shelf ammo, and it is a LOT easier to feed a .44 than the .454 or .45 Colt. Difficult to find decent Ruger Only hunting loads for the .45 Colt, you pretty much gotta handload them.

Either load you mentioned will take a large bear, obviously the .454 would be the better choice for an animal weighing over 500lbs but for smaller bear and deer, the .44 magnum would seem to be the more practical and affordable caliber.

Ok, A little confused?? Are you saying you can load a 45 colt to out perform a 44 magnum?

[felix]

By definition, the case size having the most case (powder) capacity wins. ALWAYS. In practice, the gun typically used provides the only limitation to that rule. ... felix

[MT Chambers]

The only place where i can see the .45 Colt outperform the .44 is with a 5 shot cyl. in my Freedom Arms .45 Colt/Casull, while the Casull is a big handfull in a revolver, for a levergun I'd take the .45/70 everytime! With these big revolvers, the .45 Colt case becomes the weak point, so I don't push it and use the Casull case for heavy loads. I've heard that there is OAL concerns re: the Casull in those rifles??

[bgoff_ak]

I agree with Bob, .44 is the way to go ( if your planning on shooting a bunch ) ive taken a few bear with my .44 casts ( one with BP encore the other in pistol ). even in Alaska .454 brass are hard to come by, unless your willing to pay. ( IE don't plan on finding a bunch of once shot brass at the range ). now I will say there are very few critters in the woods that couldn't be taken home with a .44, but then were talking about hunting. if you want this for bear protection IE head on and some thing is going to eat you i'm a huge fan of the 45-70. ( they even make take down models now ! ). any way you go they will both fill the freezer... just do what we all do... get one and show your wife... get the other and hide it in the safe!

[outdoorfan]

I agree with the other who mentioned to get the lever gun that matches the revolver you may possibly have. Otherwise, .44 magnum or .45 Colt all the way for 100 yards and under. I don't think you need to shoot the heavies either. 265 grains in the 44 maggie or 290 grains in the .45 Colt will probably do everything you need.

[Lloyd Smale]

words to live by!
By definition, the case size having the most case (powder) capacity wins. ALWAYS. In practice, the gun typically used provides the only limitation to that rule. ... felix

[joec]

I'm also a 45 Colt and 45-70 fan but recently was looking for a side arm to go with these rifles as a back up. So after some research I settled on the Taurus Raging Bull which I just ordered in 454 Casull as it can shoot both 45 Colt and 454 as well as handle anything I can shot in my Rossi 92. I will be loading my own in 454 also as I do everything else I shoot.

[Whiterabbit]

One tends to run out of case capacity in the .44, think of the 454 as a .45-70 short.

This.

I like shooting really heavy bullets very slow. Bullet size eats case cap real quick. Extra allowable feed length helps.

[DougGuy]

Ok, A little confused?? Are you saying you can load a 45 colt to out perform a 44 magnum?

As mentioned earlier, the .44 is pretty much at it's pressure ceiling with factory loads and max handloads, but the .45 Colt can be loaded with heavier boolits, which deliver more energy and a larger boolit to the target, and do it with less pressure. However, if one chooses to load to the max Ruger Only loads, yes the .45 Colt will easily outdo anything the .44 magnum is capable of. Both on paper, and in tissue.

It's hard on a .44 to go much over 300gr boolit weight, and even at that weight velocity is limited because the gun is at the limits of what it can handle pressure wise and the .45 Colt has a breaking point in the 340gr - 350gr range, which can still be launched in the 1250f/s range from a Ruger handgun, and probably 1600 - 1700f/s from a carbine.

The 5 shot .45 Colt is remarkable. If you can stand the recoil, you can easily step a 350gr Keith type boolit well beyond 1500f/s in the right gun.

The notion of the .45 Colt brass being weak is nonsense, and it's been proven to be as strong and as thick as .44 magnum brass. That was true many years ago but it's old wives' tale now.

But, since the thread was about the .454 and not the .45 Colt, I vote .454.... I said my opinions about the cost and availability of ammo, .454 vs .44, but if it's a q of performance? .454 wins hands down.