Blew up my gun -- need help with the autopsy

[patsher]

Well, it happened. Blew up my gun. At the range, about a week ago. Have a few questions.

The particulars: Sig P245 compact single stack 45 acp. 200 gr Lee SWC over 4.4 gr Red Dot, CCI LP primer, range pickup brass.
The casing looks like what I think is called a "headspace separation": a split approximately 3/8" long, parallel to the ejector groove, and about 1/16 inch above the ejector groove. Is that the correct terminology?

Primer is slightly flattened, but not cratered. I don't THINK it was a double load of powder, since I am very careful, load in a turret press and visually check the powder level with a flashlight in each round before I place the boolit into position for seating. I'll have to check, but IIRC a double load of Red Dot will overflow the brass. (Though anything is possible, of course).

Damage to the gun: Blew the top of the right side grip off (finally found it 3 shooting positions away; ditto the brass), blew the top of the magazine apart, jammed the magazine in the mag well, slide is jammed, not sure what all else. (Everything is at the gunsmith's place right now, while he tries to measure everything and see whether he can salvage this, one of my favorite firearms). The guys finally got the next unfired round pried out of the gun. Lots of guys standing around rubbing their chins and examiining things, decided it was probably a weak case. They didn't think it was a doubled load, since the primer wasn't flattened bad and cratered. The case was not otherwise damaged; no scratches or dents of any kind.

Damage to me: Severely thumped first joint of right hand, small cut just below lip on right side of face (I'm right-handed). The range-master insisted on a bandaid on my lip ("No bleeding on my line!"); not much hurt physically, but the whole thing left me a little rattled for a while. Personally, I figure I was mighty lucky! So, my questions:

(1) How can I tell whether a particular piece of brass is weak, and should not be loaded again?
(2) Any other comments from anyone?

Thanks for your help!

Pat

[338RemUltraMag]

Sounds more like it fired out of battery, pics would help a great deal.

[oldandslow]

pat, 5/6/13

Bummer about the P245. That's my favorite carry gun and I have thousands of reloaded rounds through mine without problems. I hope it can be fixed. It sure sounds like an overcharged round but there are other less likely possibilities. Regarding weakened brass I routinely case-gauge all my reloads which eliminates any cases with bulges. I also toss any brass where the rim is too buggered-up. My goal is 100% reliability for my practice as well as defensive ammo. This means that after about 6 or 7 reloads the brass gets trashed. Good luck.

best wishes- oldandslow

[Jason30-30]

The 45 acp is a low pressure round, I pressume a double charge. I load 4.0 grains of red dot and yes it will fill the case. I hope your gun gets up and running again I love my .45's.

Take care,
Jason

[bgoff_ak]

I would make the assumption that the round was out of battery also ( but I have no idea of the internal mechanics of the P245 ) brass could be weak, but it’s my understanding that the barrel actually is the true pressure vessel, the brass is simply a means of getting the package there. ( granted it a lot more complicated than that ) I’ve had sticky brass from a hot load in a revolver, so again it would be my assumption that it would tend to stay in battery and not extract ( I’ve had this also in my Kimber ). There is a wealth of knowledge here though so I’m sure someone will have more insight ( be assured you’re not the first guy this has happened to ) as for my 45, most of my loads are so low pressure they just keep getting run through with an inspection. I track my .454 and some 44… but not my 45 ( maybe I need to rethink this procedure ) Do you have any pics of that brass, its like a snapped fishing knot… one picture can tell a whole lot.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have shot and reloaded 30,000 .45 ACP rounds over the years. I never had a case split nor crack. Sometimes I get a loose primer pocket that is detected when the pocket cause little or no resistance when the primer is seated. I put the case to the side and eventually I will get around to salvaging those loosley seated primers and tossing the cases. Sometimes a case looks just a little too worn and I ruthlessly cull out those cases.

I generally load light to medium strength rounds as I am usually just making steel ring out or punching a hole in a can, ballon or piece of paper............For social use I load only FACTORY SELF DEFENSE ROUNDS ETC.

Over the years I have had my share of dud rounds that get stuck in the barrel. My wife fired off a fast string and the third round just went POP instead of BANG and she did not stop in time. Yep, obstructed barrel and 4th round piled into it and split the barrel.

No other damage....threw some stuff back into her face that was ugly (The stuff not her) and the slide could not be retracted fully. That gun want back to the factory to have a new barrel installed and fitted. The factory ended up replacing the slide and all the internal stuff just to be on the safe side. I paid only for a new barrel and they sprang for the slide and internals............A good manufacturer to keep in mind EAA Witness Match Elite in 9 MM and it has the best trigger I have ever felt on a semi-auto including some match grade .45 ACP's that cost 3 and 5 times as much money. Them Italians know pistols..........

[runfiverun]

could have deep seated the boolit when chambering the round too.

[DougGuy]

If the separation occurred over the feed ramp, there is less case support because most are polished to facilitate feeding, there is an eyebrow shaped area just in front of the extractor groove where the case isn't supported. If it ruptured there, it was likely an overcharge in the case, or the bullet could have been driven down into the case upon feeding, either situation would raise pressures alarmingly. Glad you are okay.

I had a 40 rupture in the same area, ramped barrel in a para ordnance, just enough flare at the top of the ramp to get into the thinner part of the case and it let go, blew the floorplate off the magazine, discharged 2-3 rounds in the top of the magazine and dumped everything straight down. I got lucky. 8 live rounds left under the detonated ones all went out the bottom.

[cbrick]

Weak case? Dunno about that in the 45 but I guess anything is possible.

Sounds much more like an over charge or without enough neck tension the boolit could have been seated too deep under recoil or during feeding which would be the same effect. Possible with range pick up brass that it could have been loaded enough times to work harden the brass resulting in poor grip on the boolit but I've loaded 45 brass an awful lot of times without that problem.

Probably the best info you can hope for here is our best guess, pictures would be a big help.

Rick

[MBTcustom]

You should have sent the gun back to the manufacturer. They can do a lot more for you than your gunsmith, and if he's smart, that's exactly where he'll send it too.

[btroj]

Exactly Tim. The manufacturer will be far more able to determine what, if anything, is usable.
I trust the manufacturer far more than a gunsmith to determine what is "safe" in this case.

[Errokk]

Wow! Glad you're Ok! Keep us in the loop on what is found out for sure...

[kbstenberg]

I over charged a CZ 527. My smith sent it back for them to fix it. Later today I am calling them to see how things are going.

[ku4hx]

Incipient case head separation maybe? I don't recall ever seeing it in straight wall pistol cartridges, but here's a pretty good read on the subject along with a picture of a tool to detect it.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/05/reloading-case-head-separations.html

I've never trusted range pickup brass for the simple reason when I leave it there its safe-loading life is over in my opinion. Our club has two buckets: trash and brass. Every time I drop my worn out brass in the trash I get questioned and I always explain. But since our club sells brass, I strongly suspect what I call trash, they call money.

[tjones]

Barring a double charge , a bullet lodged against the charge, ie; really pushed back in to the case can drive pressures sky high in the acp. The loading ramp is weak support and bulges and blow out happen there often. Lucky you nothing serious to your hand. tj

[Kull]

I'm glad your alright patsher.

[trapper9260]

Just to let you know it was not a 45 but in my 44mag I had factory ammo I was usen at the time and had a case crack on me .it was the only one out of the box that done that.but the way it sound that the 45 was over charge like was stated.

[Fluxed]

A high primer and the round went off while the gun was out of battery - maybe. But a double charge would do this as well and is much more likely. It could be either. I seriously doubt it has anything to do with the structure of the case or case head. I suspect the case looks like its got a little "smiley" on it that resembles the unsupported area at the feed ramp.

[MattOrgan]

Wow take it easy on this guy Bwana, he had the guts to come here for help, looking for the power of knoweledge. Sounds like a classic case failure from over pressure to me too, most likely cause is a double charge. Load only new brass? Really? Inspect your brass? Absolutely regardless of the source, but annular "cracks" in "most" pistol cases? That condition would make most pistol brass defective. I'm sure you meant annular rings, but this is a condition found in bottle neck rifle cases, not self loading handgun brass. Yes, 9mm, .40, and .45 should be inspected for bulges and mouth and body splits. I am suspicious of all fired rifle brass that I have not fired the first time, because I don't know it's history or the condition of the rifle it was fired in, the difference being the operating pressure, brass behaves a lot differently at 55,000 psi, than at 17,000 psi. Pistol brass is another matter and I happily collect any I find on the ground and reload it. Think about it, most reloaders are not going to leave their brass, but a non reloader will so when I find a bunch of brass at a gravel pit that is all the same head stamp, I'm glad to pick it up, particularly handgun brass. Rifle brass too, but it will get checked with my paper clip tool for any annular rings to see if its ready to have a head separation.

[Case Stuffer]

First off Pat great injuries were not more serious.

Not sure why someone whould refer to a member of over three years as a new reloader. I am a fauirly new member here but likely have as much or more reloading ,casting and shoot experience as many of the multi year veterans here.

Yes the .45ACP is a low pressure round but that does not mean that the brass is routinely loaded way below its' max. safe levels does it? Many 45 Autos poorly support the case , as well as some 9mm,and .40s.

Range brass should be cleaned and throughly inspected several times during the reloading process. IMO if one is discarding brass they feel is used up it should be first crushed withg a hammer,pliers,vice etc. and placed in a brass scrap container . Why expose others to questionable brass and why not sell it as scrap. Some of the range pickup brass I have purched here was once fired and looked great,some fired a few times to many times and I sorted it as such , some was very mixed and contained cases which I would not have even given to someone else for reuse.

[Pilgrim]

Any chance the firing pin could have been protruding? Even a little could have resulted in the round firing before going into full battery. If you use a powder dispenser it is possible you had a small powder hangup that would/could have resulted in an overcharge in the next round w/o being a double charge. It is possible you would not notice a small increase in powder looking into the case. Beyond that, all of the likely culprits have already been listed. FWIW Pilgrim

[YunGun]

So your suggestion is basically what?... Go home & play with your dollies & leave the reloading for grown-ups?:dung_hits_fan: How very helpful! :not listening: OP could have opted not to share this experience & be subjected to this sort of commentary, but appears to be interested in <gasp> learning something.

@Pat: Sorry to hear about your mishap & the damage to your pistol, but glad to hear that the injuries were not more substantial! Without more info, I'm leaning towards the bullet set-back theory; you don't mention whether this was the first shot from the mag, or 3rd, etc.? As previously mentioned, pictures would greatly help with the 'virtual autopsy'.

[Bwana]

Wow take it easy on this guy Bwana, he had the guts to come here for help, looking for the power of knoweledge. Sounds like a classic case failure from over pressure to me too, most likely cause is a double charge. Load only new brass? Really? Inspect your brass? Absolutely regardless of the source, but annular "cracks" in "most" pistol cases? That condition would make most pistol brass defective. I'm sure you meant annular rings, but this is a condition found in bottle neck rifle cases, not self loading handgun brass. Yes, 9mm, .40, and .45 should be inspected for bulges and mouth and body splits. I am suspicious of all fired rifle brass that I have not fired the first time, because I don't know it's history or the condition of the rifle it was fired in, the difference being the operating pressure, brass behaves a lot differently at 55,000 psi, than at 17,000 psi. Pistol brass is another matter and I happily collect any I find on the ground and reload it. Think about it, most reloaders are not going to leave their brass, but a non reloader will so when I find a bunch of brass at a gravel pit that is all the same head stamp, I'm glad to pick it up, particularly handgun brass. Rifle brass too, but it will get checked with my paper clip tool for any annular rings to see if its ready to have a head separation.

I would invite you to take another look at the bottom of the inside of your pistol brass. Concentric with the flash hole and at varying distances (with different manufacturers, calibers, etc.) there is a crack which forms as the case is made. Some are more pronounced than others; but, it is there. Most of the time it is a non-factor. However, with high pressure and or unsupported chambers it can become a factor. Also, the repeated stretching (firing) and squeezing back together (resizing) of cases will work harden the brass and allow it to fail under what would otherwise be a safe, although warm or hot load. This is why actually looking at each piece of brass, at least in a minimal fashion, to determine its prior use is important. Especially if it is going to be used in a gun with minimal support and or hot loads.
Any brass with multiple ejector strike marks, flattened primers, "defined" bulges, or other signs of high pressure that I pick up at the range are automatically tossed in the scrap bucket. Any brass that I use for +P or +P+ loads are looked at to check the state of the annular crack. But, that's what I do, everyone else is free to do as they please.

[MBTcustom]

I agree that pictures would be helpful.
Also, it is extremely bad ju-ju to put somebody down for making a mistake. I have made one myself. I put a double charge in an '06 once. I was luckier than mrs Pat.

Let us remember that we are here to offer sound advice and scientific knowledge. In this instance, the crime carried the punishment. No need to "drive the point home" any more. What we need to do is help mrs. Pat figure out what went wrong, and all of us take a lesson from it.
I would be very interested to see pictures of the gun.

Last year, a buddy of mine got a double charge of bullseye in a glock 23 .45acp. The resultant injuries and firearm distraction sounds identical to what mrs. Pat describes. The gun was shipped back to Glock with an explanation and full disclosure of the cause of the kaboom. The gun was replaced for $300 and change, and we all learned a very valuable lesson about reloading.

[patsher]

Okay, guys, I just got off the phone with the gunsmith. Apparently he had a devil of a time getting the slide off, and the rail is bent. We both agreed it should go back to the factory. I'm tied up today, but will get some photos and post them here before we ship it.

Thanks to everyone who posted here. It's a little disconcerting to post your mistakes and lack of knowledge in public, but I'm sure of one thing -- I'm not the only one who can use the information gleaned from all this, so -- thanks, guys!

[Jim..47]

Too bad someone has to offer bashing instead of help which is what was asked for. Imagine she already feels bad enough. But I'll offer my past experiences which may help how you feel.. I've blown up 2 guns, both were real bad, but no severe injuries.

My first was a Browning 12 G. 3 1/2" Mag shotgun which blew up while goose hunting with factory ammo. The second gun was a Thompson Omega muzzleloader. I narrowly escaped death on this one, and it may have been an over load.

I agree with the following assessment. I think it was a partial over charge due to powder sticking in the measure from the last round. Please always give a visual inspection to your shells. If you use a loading rack this is very easy to do and also quite easy to catch an over charged round. Also, when discharging the powder from the powder measure, rack the handle quite hard. This may help give enough vibration and shock to shake loose any sticky powder. Also, every so often run a couple dryer sheets in and around the measure to eliminate any static. Or do what I did, and get an RCBS 1500 electronic scale and powder dispenser. No possible way to make a major mistake with these. Best $300 I've ever spent.



Any chance the firing pin could have been protruding? Even a little could have resulted in the round firing before going into full battery. If you use a powder dispenser it is possible you had a small powder hangup that would/could have resulted in an overcharge in the next round w/o being a double charge. It is possible you would not notice a small increase in powder looking into the case. Beyond that, all of the likely culprits have already been listed. FWIW Pilgrim

[runfiverun]

that has to be the most gentle warning to play nice I have ever seen.

[KinkBreaker]

i hope sig takes care of you. if you bought it second hand dont tell them that

[Shiloh]

The 45 acp is a low pressure round, I pressume a double charge. I load 4.0 grains of red dot and yes it will fill the case. I hope your gun gets up and running again I love my .45's.

Take care,
Jason

I second the double charge. Low pressure on the .45, 20-21K psi tops. Probably less with a lighter weight lead boolit.
Thank goodness you will shoot another day!!

Shiloh

[41 mag fan]

Maybe a little helpful background info would be useful here. What are the reloads crimped at?
I'd have to take a serious look at boolit setback caused either by recoil or initial feeding or firing out of battery.
If it was a double charge, I'd think there'd be more damage done to the slide and barrel, than the grips and magazine area.

[prs]

Some of you folk are brutal. The OP just got a very stern lesson from the School of Hard Knocks. His education continues. I had my first KABOOM last Fall. Rookie error? Maybe, I only have 41 years experience. The error was mine, whatever it was; I am responsible. The OP is too in this case. Given his report of his loading set-up and habit, I believe he did not have an over charge. I have a similar visual check of powder when loading and am also very careful. In my case, I believe the problem was my failure to catch an undersized cast boolit that fit too loosely in the crimped case and thus was slammed back into the case when fed into the chamber. What did it learn? I got a Ph.D. in being particular about culling boolits and also in redoubling my attention during loading sessions.

To the OP, chin up and carry on my Fellow!

prs

[Spector]

When I had a catastrophic case failure in my Glock 21 several years ago the brass failed exactly where the unsupported portion of the chamber is on the bottom. The offhand shot hit the target just 1 1/2'' from the first shot I had fired at 25 yards. I pulled several boolits and the powder charges were fine.

I am still convinced that it was not an over pressure situation but instead just a weak spot in that piece of brass that happened to line up with the unsupported portion of my chamber.

I recently fired the 200+ rounds that were left out of that batch in my Springfield XD-S without incident.

People encouraged me to send my Glock back without explanation and ask that it be replaced. Glock specifically says not to fire reloaded ammunition out of their pistols. It was not Glock's fault in any way shape or form. If it had happened with factory loaded ammunitionI would ask for a replacement pistol. As it is I will just ask what they will charge me to rebuild what I have left. The barrel and slide are fine. The brass was WCC and it appears this was the 3rd reloading.

Don't know if your SIG has that same type of unsupported area in the bottom of the chamber, but if it does that I would really clean that piece of brass and see how closely that blown out area matches the unsupported area. I pushed my blown brass into the barrel and illuminated the inside of the barrel. It was amazing how the brass blow out matched perfectly.

I love Glock pistols, but will never fire another reload in any Glock unless it has a KKM or similar aftermarket barrel with a fully supported chamber installed in it.

My frame was destroyed. Split into two pieces front to back with other pieces blown out. Trigger was splintered. Magazine was disassembled, but only needs the little polymer plate that fits between the spring and magazine bottom. Pain in both hands was intense, but all fingers were still there, although covered with powder residue. My right index finger had some nasty blood blisters and unburned powder blown into my skin. Small holes in my face. Thank God I was wearing safety glasses. One spot in the right lens shows what would have impacted my eye.

I used to believe I was safe because I wasn't shooting a higher pressure cartridge like a 9mm or 40 cal. Sure learned the hard way that was not the case. And it doesn't take an overload of powder or boolit seated too deeply. Just a flaw in a case and the proper alignment in an unsupported chamber.

Glad you are alright. It is an experience I'm sure you do not want to repeat in this lifetime.........Mike

[YunGun]

So what is your real beef, that someone without a grasp of the BASICS of ammunition had a mishap and they were upbraided for their lack of knowledge.

No, it was simply the condescending manner in which you responded to a request for assistance, without actually offering any assistance that I found objectionable. I am certain that this experience has very pointedly reminded Patsher of the fact that this thing of ours is not "playing with dollies" like nothing else can, & suspect she would benefit a great deal more from a logical discussion of how to prevent this from re-occurring as opposed to finger-pointing.


Let us remember that we are here to offer sound advice and scientific knowledge. In this instance, the crime carried the punishment. No need to "drive the point home" any more. What we need to do is help mrs. Pat figure out what went wrong, and all of us take a lesson from it.

Well said!

[kevmc]

45 acp headspaces off the mouth of the case...maybe too heavy crimp, allowing cartridge to sit too far forward in chamber.....headspace issues...?/?
double charge/headspace/bad brass.....1 of the 3>>>

[patsher]

41 Mag fan, can you explain what you are asking when you say crimped "at"? Pressure? Type of crimp? Method of crimping?

Pat

[S.B.]

Had this happen with a Browning HiPower once. Felt like a grenade in my hand. Determind it was bad brass? Junked the brass and never looked back. No more problems.
Steve

[Errokk]

No, it was simply the condescending manner in which you responded to a request for assistance, without actually offering any assistance that I found objectionable. I am certain that this experience has very pointedly reminded Patsher of the fact that this thing of ours is not "playing with dollies" like nothing else can, & suspect she would benefit a great deal more from a logical discussion of how to prevent this from re-occurring as opposed to finger-pointing.



Well said!

+2 Great ppl here for the most part!

[Iron Mike Golf]

Here's another failure mode that would behave like a set-back round. Dryer lint. Kinda odd, so lemme 'splain.

I used to keep my tumbler in the powder room that is in the laundry room. Walnut media stored like 5 feet from the dryer in an open bucket.

I was loading 45 ACP and had a round that the press handle felt like I was compressing the charge. Pulled it down on the spot dumped the powder back in the hopper. Loaded another charge and eyeballed it and it was nearly to the case mouth. Dumped that and eyeballed inside the "empty" case. It looked like there was a fiber wad in the bottom. Pulled it out and there was a nice flash hole through it from decapping/sizing.

Apparently, a fluff of dryer lint wandered into my media and got into a case. I moved my tumbler.

[MBTcustom]

Apparently, the hint was not taken.
I cleaned this thread up.

[castreloading]

Glad your ok. What sucks with picking up brass from the range is you never know how many times its been shot before. I shoot 40 SW and the only brass I leave at the range is stuff that has seen 5+ reloads. That's why I never pick up brass from the range and I get my brass from sources that can vouch for getting stuff from police ranges. The only brass I would pick up at a public range is if I still see the crimp on military brass.

[TES]

PRS...HE is a she.

[bgoff_ak]

its odd, the whole he / she thing should not matter... but it does all of my guns seem to know who's shooting them. i always seem to get that rather large flyer, when the wife shoots them all the holes seem to be in the right spot. come to think about it she fishs better then i do also... maybe tonight i'll see if she can dig fence post better then i do or take out the trash... glad to hear your ok, i said it before and i'll say it again. your not the first this has happened to and you won't be the last. Ive had rounds go poof that should have gone bang, and i've even had a ND... if we all wanted to be 100% safe we'd sit inside, but even then some idiot would fall off the couch.

[S.B.]

Bwana, what are you saying? "Concentric with the flash hole and at varying distances (with different manufacturers, calibers, etc.) there is a crack which forms as the case is made. Some are more pronounced than others;?"
Steve

[David2011]

Bwana, what are you saying? "Concentric with the flash hole and at varying distances (with different manufacturers, calibers, etc.) there is a crack which forms as the case is made. Some are more pronounced than others;?"
Steve

I didn't understand that either so just bypassed it.

Miss Pat, glad it wasn't worse for you. I'm a little slower than some to assume fault in any particular direction. Out of battery is certainly a valid possibility as is an overcharge. A stuck firing pin can cause all kinds of trouble. I had the firing pin jam forward on a Ruger MkI many years ago. It's amazing what their cyclic rate is. There was a burr on the stamped firing pin, I stoned it off and haven't had another problem with it in 30 years. If you can do the forensics and determine where the brass was when the kaboom happened that would be very telling. What kind of powder measure and press do you use? That could help analyze the likelihood of an overcharge.

David

[fredj338]

Primer is slightly flattened, but not cratered. I don't THINK it was a double load of powder, since I am very careful, load in a turret press and visually check the powder level with a flashlight in each round before I place the boolit into position for seating. I'll have to check, but IIRC a double load of Red Dot will overflow the brass. (Though anything is possible, of course).

Thanks for your help!

Pat
It's possible it fired OOB, I am not familiar w/ that Sig model, but I am doubting it. Likely cause would be an over charge, not necessarily a double, & a weak piece of brass. Media stuck in the bottom of the case or throwing a "fat" charge. RD is very fast & 4.4gr is quite mild. You could have doubled, certainly possible if you weren't paying close attention, but something inside the case before charging could give a sim result.

[gray wolf]

For those that may not be aware, Pat is NOT a guy, she is a fabulous young lady.
How could anyone wise off about someone having a little mess up ???
Has the forum gone south on us ??
Hang in Pat I'm sure the factory will do the best they can for you.
Most of all glad your OK.

Sam

[sagamore-one]

Hello Pat. It's good to hear you are still in one piece.
In reference to firing out of battery, the Sig design will not permit this.
I own and load for several P series Sigs including two P245's. The P245 is nothing more than a chopped and channelled P220. Shortening things changes timing and angles necessary to make the beast function.
Ammo the P220 thrives on may choke the P245. Extra care is warranted when loading.
My first impression of your kaboom would be case related, compressed powder charge, or a combination of both.
Keep on loading and keep on learning.

[jonp]

I use that exact boolit and charge in a different 45ACP than the Kahr I'm fooling with now. It is by no means anywhere near a hot load and should not have done that with good brass.
I'm leaning towards a slight crack in the brass that you may have overlooked when reloading it or a double charge. Even with less than adequate crimp I don't think you could set back the boolit enough to cause a spike in pressure sufficient to blow up a Sig. I've had a few Sig's including a 239 and a 220 which the 245 is a shortened version of and they are stout guns to say the least.
BTW: the flattened primer makes me lean toward the double charge.
Glad your ok, a gun can be replaced.

[Maximumbob54]

Only advice I can offer is riding on the coat tails of the already offered advice of avoiding flake powders. I avoid Unique, Red Dot, and a few other of the larger flake offerings unless I'm using the Hornady Auto Charge. Flake powder is known to bog up in the measure and then dislodge some in the next drop. Sure, you can look the cases over in the loading block but you are trusting your eye to see that tiny bit extra. Alliant lists 4.5gr of Red Dot as the max standard pressure load under a 200gr SWC of similar design and I'm not sure what would go beyond a +P load with that powder into kaboom territory. My point in all this is I started with Unique, went to Bullseye, read an article talking about HP-38 (or Win 231) and have never wanted to buy anything else for most of my standard pressure pistol loads. It flows from every powder measure I have like mercury and I have to force myself to mess up to get it to drop at an erratic volume. RCBS Uniflow, Lyman #55, Lee Pro Auto, Lee PPM, Hornady LNL, they all drop HP-38/Win231 with that near perfect +/- .1gr tolerance. You can't undo what has been done but you can sure switch powders and all but eliminate the possibility of a stuck clump falling causing an over charge.

[jonp]

I'm not sure your right about 4.5gr being a max load with a 200gr boolit. My lymans go's up to 5.3 - 5.5 depending on the boolit. I'm shooting 4.6gr under a 200gr now and it's easy to control with no signs of pressure. This is in a Kahr CW45 which is nowhere near the solid gun the Sig p245 is.

For kicks I just loaded a double load of 8.8gr into a 45ACP case. No, I didn't shoot it as that comes near the upper limit for my 45Colt. It does almost fill the case to the top and would be pretty darn hard to miss.

[David2011]

Maximumbob,

You are so right about 231 -and the flake powders. If ever a fast powder deserved to be called delightful W231 is it. It also leaves my bores looking like they were just cleaned when shooting cast boolits.

David

[waksupi]

Apparently, the hint was not taken.
I cleaned this thread up.

I swept up a few more nooks and crannies.

[Maximumbob54]

I'm not sure your right about 4.5gr being a max load with a 200gr boolit. My lymans go's up to 5.3 - 5.5 depending on the boolit. I'm shooting 4.6gr under a 200gr now and it's easy to control with no signs of pressure. This is in a Kahr CW45 which is nowhere near the solid gun the Sig p245 is.

For kicks I just loaded a double load of 8.8gr into a 45ACP case. No, I didn't shoot it as that comes near the upper limit for my 45Colt. It does almost fill the case to the top and would be pretty darn hard to miss.

As I said, it's from Alliant's listing:

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x333/Maximumbob54/Stupid%20pics/reddot_zps12a48850.png (http://s1176.photobucket.com/user/Maximumbob54/media/Stupid%20pics/reddot_zps12a48850.png.html)


Maximumbob,

You are so right about 231 -and the flake powders. If ever a fast powder deserved to be called delightful W231 is it. It also leaves my bores looking like they were just cleaned when shooting cast boolits.

David

I will admit that like most powders HP-38/Win 231 runs at its best and least unburned when run at near max pressures. But I've never had trouble maintaining that powder volume and it doesn't stray into +P territory. It's also my most trusted powder to use in the Lee Classic Turret when using the Pro Auto Disks for dropping the powder. It drops with such boring regularity that I have to promise to punch myself if I don't stop and check every tenth cartridge. And it's always the same. :veryconfu

[jonp]

As I said, it's from Alliant's listing:

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x333/Maximumbob54/Stupid%20pics/reddot_zps12a48850.png (http://s1176.photobucket.com/user/Maximumbob54/media/Stupid%20pics/reddot_zps12a48850.png.html)



I will admit that like most powders HP-38/Win 231 runs at its best and least unburned when run at near max pressures. But I've never had trouble maintaining that powder volume and it doesn't stray into +P territory. It's also my most trusted powder to use in the Lee Classic Turret when using the Pro Auto Disks for dropping the powder. It drops with such boring regularity that I have to promise to punch myself if I don't stop and check every tenth cartridge. And it's always the same. :veryconfu
I have that stuff downloaded and look at it on a regular basis and I checked it before starting load development with Red Dot for my 45ACP. I think that they are very conservative and when I cross reference with other sources they are always below eveyone else. That is what they say, however so I stand corrected.

[Maximumbob54]

Just trying to back up my big mouth is all. I do agree with they do seem to be at least a little conservative. Any idea of a listed max for a +P though? I've not found that.

[Recluse]

Miss Pat, glad it wasn't worse for you. I'm a little slower than some to assume fault in any particular direction. Out of battery is certainly a valid possibility as is an overcharge. A stuck firing pin can cause all kinds of trouble.

David

Agree, and Pat, I'm glad you can still count to "five" on your hand and not need to use any finger more than once to do so.

For whatever it's worth, in the forty-plus years I've been reloading, I've been pretty shy about using Red Dot for anything in a handgun. I said "shy" and not that I refuse to, but I've had some Red Dot loads in my earlier years that I pushed to maximum get my attention in a bad way.

I primarily use Red Dot for my shotgun loads and some plinking rifle loads. For that particular boolit (Lee 200SWC), which is one of my absolute favorites, I use a light charge of Bullseye--something like 4.3 or 4.6. I've also used AA#2 and W231, which as said earlier, meter through ANY powder measure flawlessly.

I've also always been loathe to separate my plinking brass by headstamp, but it seems that I may have to start doing that as I'm beginning to acquire a collection of pure junk brass with funny headstamps I've never heard of or seen before.

God Bless the shooters that do not reload, but I just wish they'd use a better brand of ammo. . . :)

I doubt you actually got a double-charge, but sure as you-know-what, you got a compressed charge of some sort and quite possibly/probably combined with an inferior casing.

In other words, you experienced "the perfect storm."

I'm just glad you're okay. Guns can be fixed, repaired and/or replaced a lot easier than body parts.

:coffee:

[44 mag nut]

Pat, nice to hear you are okay. Most of all thank you for sharing you mishap with us. I just double checked some of my range brass I picked up from a local retailer I trust. I found a few .004 too short after resizing them. Loaded a few without primers and was able to push the boolit in a few thousands.

Hope this is helpful to you as well as other.

[Maximumbob54]

As long as it wasn't an A-Merc case... http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x333/Maximumbob54/Smiley/1637_zps42438cb7.gif (http://s1176.photobucket.com/user/Maximumbob54/media/Smiley/1637_zps42438cb7.gif.html)

[doctorggg]

Patsher,

I had a very similar experience with a Taurus 101. I was using my chrono, the boolit left the barrel and the chrono reading was normal. But the pistol blew up just like yours. It went straight down the magazine and blew up the barrel at the breech end. I chalked it up to unsupported brass as the 40 was a new cartridge at the time. I didn't know much about unsupported high pressure rounds at that time. Boy that really hurts your hand. I was lucky everything either went straight up or straight down. It still felt like somebody slammed my hand with a hammer. Taurus repaired the gun for free. Everything was locked up so I couldn't retrieve the brass case. I am still convinced the case blew out the bottom. Stuff happens.

I am very glad your were not seriously hurt. I hope Sig takes good care of you.

[M-Tecs]

Pat glad you’re OK.

Any semi-auto is susceptible to an out of battery firing with high primers. Was it a GI case that that still had the crimp or something else that might have caused a high primer?

[KYCaster]

Something that hasn't yet been asked......What happened just before the KB?

Did you drop the hammer on an empty chamber? Have a wimpy round? Failure to eject? Do a tap/rack/bang drill? Anything out of the ordinary?

Sounds to me like it could have been caused by a bore obstruction.

A weak piece of brass is just about the last thing I'd suspect in a 45ACP.

Jerry

[Old Caster]

People have been all over the map with over loads, deep seated bullets and worn out brass and you will have to sort out what you want to believe. I generally shoot my lead 200 swc bullets at only 750 or so feet per second because I am worried about accuracy and not power. I have been shooting 45's in bullseye matches since the middle 60's and all my brass and the brass I have found at the range or have been given goes into a dirty or clean bucket. I have about 5000 but shoot a lot so it seems like I am out of clean brass often and have to clean and put it all in the clean brass bucket. The only time a piece of brass is thrown away is if it splits, which I usually feel when I am sizing or seating a bullet because it feels different but I load on a Dillon and you have four things happening at a time and might not feel it. I am absolutely certain I have fired some cases that were already split through the years and it was always without problem. The case is only a seal and the chamber is what is taking the pressure. Any bullet fired without the chamber support will split open. Some guns can have problems with an unsuported chamber but it isn't the norm and usually is because someone did some modifying that was incorrect. I think the only two possibilities you have are an over powder situation (how ever it happens) and a bullet sliding back into the case (how ever it happens). If it were possible to break something with a bad case (in a 45ACP) I would have already done it. It is possible that some of the cases in my lot have been there for many years. I will pitch some brass because the primers don't fit well but never because they look old. Yes it amazing how short some of the brass can get but still no problems in 50 years.

[gunoil]

i do 45acp on LLM. The disk hole is 4.3 ,, win231powder. 228gr RN lee boolit mold. Not much powder, lite load and boolit seated deep. It might work even better with the 4.0 disk hole. I might try that and stay on target better for plinking.

Hope you lip and hand feels better.

[patsher]

M-Tecs, I'll know more when I get the case back from the gunsmith, but IIRC it was not a GI case. And these were loaded on a Lee cast turret press, and I've developed a quite firm stroke to seat the primer by feel-- I really notice when something doesn't "feel right" when priming, and immediately remove the round to find out what's going on, so I don't think it was a high primer.

At this point, without re-examining the offending case, I'm getting pretty convinced that I got an overload of powder in there, one way or another. My logic says that since there was a little flattening of the primer, no matter how small, and with the fact that a great deal of energy went out the side/bottom/wherever of the gun that either there was an obstruction in the barrel, or I overloaded the powder, or maybe there was a set-back of the boolit. After reading about boolit setback in these responses to my post, I remembered something else just this evening.

The rounds I was shooting that day had been loaded over a year ago. At that time, I had been experiencing some trouble with chambering and failures to eject, and one of the fellows at the range that day had said it looked to him like the rounds were hanging up on the shoulder of the SWC, and that they should be seated deeper to solve the problem. So we took all the ammo home, and ran it through the seating die again to re-seat the boolits slightly. So the ammo I was shooting when I had my KB was that re-seated stuff. Would that have caused any of this current problem?

Logically, it could have, if there was, say, a little too much powder in a round, and then the re-seating caused a compressed load, right?

Pat

[MtGun44]

I know of no mechanism that would raise the pressure significantly by slightly reseating a boolit.

I double charged exactly one case in 45 years of reloading. It was a .45 ACP, and it blew out the case in the unsupported
feed ramp area. I have seen about 6 other blowups, and I use Occam's Razor - or the simplest explanation.
When it is me, I assume human error. I tend to avoid complex causation theories as less probable than simple
human error. Not saying they can't have happened, just that they seem less probable.

I am glad that the blowup did not cause serious injuries, guns can be replaced, although there is quite an ouch to the
wallet. Mine split the grips, but other than a really stinging impact on the hands and ruined grips, the Colt Gold
Cup was fine. I have see the exposed portion of the chamber blown out the ejection port on one, and the next
round in the mag detonate with another. That one bulged the slide below the ejection port, but judicious press
work pushed it back and the gun was salvaged.

Judge for yourself, but unfortunately us humans tend to make mistakes. I know I work very dilligently to avoid
another double charge. Will I forestall it forever? I certainly am making every effort.

Best wishes. Be safe, wear your safety glasses - eyes are the most fragile part of the human anatomy and
critical to a normal life.

Bill

[patsher]

KY Caster, I'll try to answer your questions:

1. No, I didn't drop the hammer on an empty chamber.
2. I don't remember having a wimpy round. But I was a kind of rattled, because I had previously been shooting a 9mm rounds in a Ruger SR9, and had an intermittent series of light strikes, and couldn't figure out what was going on with that. Finally decided the firing pin/springs/something needed to be looked at by someone smarter than me, packed that gun away, and got out my Sig P245 and the 45 acp ammo. So it's possible I had a squib load in there, but I don't remember one.
3. Failure to eject? Not then, that I remember. (I think the whole incident shook me up a little more than I realized at the time, because I seem to be unsure of quite a bit, right now). BUT--- just this last weekend, when I was shooting some of this same ammo in my P220, I DID have a failure to eject, so it's entirely possible.
4. Tap/rack/bang drill? No, not that I remember.
5. Nothing out of the ordinary that I can remember. Just that I was firing fast, and the KB occurred a little over halfway through the second magazine. Remember, though, that this little P245 only has a 6- or 7-round magazine, single stack. And as I right this, I'm remembering the post above where the fellow who has both the P220 and P245 mentioned that ammo that works well in the P220 (full-size gun) can be problematic in the P245 (compact gun), which had the KB.....

You know, I've got some more of this ammo. Maybe what I need to do it go shoot some of it in my P220, and pay really close attention to the results-- that might give us a clue. But at this point, I'll bet it's just like Bill said-- human error. And you can be certain this whole thing has got my attention!

Pat

[DougGuy]

if there was, say, a little too much powder in a round, and then the re-seating caused a compressed load, right?

Pat

In reality, there was probably more than one factor contributing to what happened. What you just said is a very likely scenario, and if the boolit was seated, crimped then seated farther after the initial crimping, maybe it loosened case neck tension, and the boolit moved even farther down in the case on being chambered this time.

Reloading is a pretty complex science if you look at how tiny the variables can be to generate a huge cause and effect event. The more we do this, the more we refine the process and every shooter has their own reasons for doing things the way they do them. Me, I had a few inconsistencies priming on my press because a crimp die sometimes kept the priming arm from making a full stroke. Didn't take long to notice that's what was causing it.

Now, I prime on the press, but I do all the cases in one operation, *just* priming, inspecting with my eyes and my finger the depth of each primer. Then I remove the primer feed, back the ram off, charge and load the primed cases in a separate operation, usually weighing and trickling each charge, and visually observing the powder level when I set the boolit on the flared case, by hand. Not only does that incorporate good safe reloading habits, it makes the ammo much more consistent and more accurate.

You'll figure it out and come to what works best for you..

Edit:
You know, I've got some more of this ammo. I'm not sure I would shoot any of it at all. I might use a boolit puller and see if some of them move really easily in the case, or I might just pull all of them and remove any chance of KB'ing another gun. If you have to err, err on the side of caution..

[292]

Patsher,
I'm glad you are OK and thanks for the reality check. I'm a relatively new caster and reloader. The reminder of what can happen was welcome. I can't wait to find out what caused the problem.

[MBTcustom]

Pat, if you had a squib lodge a boolit halfway down the barrel, I feel very confident you would see an obvious bulge in the barrel at that point and the cartridge would have been ejected with extreme force, and would not have blown out the side of the gun. I seriously doubt bore obstruction.

You mention a lee turret press with priming issues? My buddy with the Glock was loading with a Lee turret also. What happened to him, is that the primer would get put in sideways, upside down, janky, or not at all, and he would take the cartridge out to fix the jam. In so doing he has to be very careful when seating the new primer that he does not throw a second charge at the same time in the next station! I keep telling him to heave that sucker and buy a Dillon (which primes on the down stroke) so he can easily clear problems if they ever happen which is a rare occurrence.

Given the descriptions you have provided, it smells like a double charge. I have been loading 45ACP since I was a kid, with Bullseye, Unique, and H Clays. If there was a problem that could have happened by deep seating/long seating a boolit, or using crummy brass, etc. I really think I would have found it. I think I counted like 20 headstamps in my brass at one time (yep! sure sounds like I collected the whole set! I didn't know there were that many headstamps out there to be had LOL!) and I have made every mistake there is to be made, except for an over charge.

Split case? My method with 45ACP is to run them until they get lost, or they split. I've probably got 25 loads on some of these. I have found cracks before, and if I were to take a guess, I would assume that I had managed to load and fire them several times over the years. (what can I say? the QC around here used to REALLY SUCK LOL!) However, I have shot tens of thousands of rounds loaded so blithely without a care in the world.
I have had several squibs but they never had the energy to rack the slide, so I knew the bore was obstructed instantly. There was no mistaking it.

I could be wrong, but I'd lay money that you got a double charge somehow.

One thing is for sure, you need to go and pull all the rest of the ammo that you loaded, and weigh the charges one by one. That should be enlightening.
Do NOT shoot any more of that ammo!!!!!!!!!!!!

[patsher]

"Pull the ammo and...."Weigh the charges one by one" -- good idea! I'll do that.

I must not have explained the priming clearly. I don't have any priming issues on the turret press, none. On the progressive presses, yes. But on the turret press, none. Actually, I've now gone to the method a number of other people on here have done-- I prime in a separate step when using the LLM. And I do it using the turret press priming system because it is so absolutely consistent (as well as quick).

Pat

[oldfart1956]

Well Pat I'm a little late at the party but thank goodness you're o.k.! Don't have a clue what happened and don't load for the .45acp so not much help there either. Just wanted to say...don't mind them little banty roosters that gave ye such a floggin' early on. I'm ashamed of them. Typical alpha-male behavior. Nothin' happened that a clean pair of drawers and an inspection of the gun won't fix. Now git back to the reloading bench and start again. Sometimes when we go thru the process we have one of them face-palm moments where it becomes crystal clear what we did. You'll figger it out. And here's a bit of advice I gave my daughter...hold your thumb an forefinger about 1/2 inch apart and look real close at that. That's the only difference between you and any man here on the loading bench. Audie....the Oldfart..

[patsher]

LOL -- thanks, guys!

Pat

[DougGuy]

Pat, I have the LLM as well. Nice piece of work but zero tolerance for anything that changes the "rhythm" as it cycles. I load .45 Colt on mine, and I got rid of the Lee powder measure, it was just problematic from the get go, staticy, inconsistent really bad, I put a used Dillon 550 measure on it and it improved 2,000,000% one problem solved. I found myself backing off the fingers that hold the cases in the shellholder so I can take them in and out easy. For hunting ammo and also load development where I might have 5 or 10rds with one powder charge, the next 5 or 10 might be half grain more, then another set with half a grain more, I use the digital scale and put each empty case on the scale, hit the tare button to zero it, then stick it in the slot under the powder measure, drop a charge and pull it out after the ratchet clicks it to the next spot (under the seating die) and weigh it again.

Let's say I am throwing 18gr of 2400. Doing that one case, I usually charge it, dump it, charge it again, and weigh it. It gets usually within .2gr and about half the time .1gr of intended charge. However, if I seat a boolit and click it to the next station where I have a collet crimp die, that's two pulls of the handle and a finished round ejected, the next charge will be as much as .6gr over. So I dump that one, and throw another one and weigh it. Now, it's back to the +/- .2gr or .1gr of the 18gr charge. I end up only using 3 stations to load with, manually putting each case in after weighing, manually removing and weighing again, then when it is correct, lightly setting a boolit on the flared case and seating/crimping. For hunting ammo, I want it that accurate. No chance of a botched shot, I want the boolit placed within a tennis ball's diameter on a deer. For load development and shooting for group, that takes out any variables of charge weight, neck tension, seating depth, crimp tension, because you can feel all of that in the press arm.

That's how I do the large pistol cases. For .45 auto, I wouldn't necessarily go to that extreme, but the point I am making is that any out of sequence vibration that press gets, affects the density of the powder in the measuring chamber and you get really uneven charge weights. I found mine to work best if the rhythm stays exactly the same, and I bang the arm twice when it finishes each stroke, this seems to settle the powder into a more consistent charge weight, and that's when I adjust the powder measure, when it's in the middle of a full set of cases, in the middle of the rhythm. Some people pull and weigh every 5th charge, or every 10th, once I get it set right, I just look and make sure the level of the powder in the case looks right before seating the boolit. Anytime you have to stop and mess with something, the next charge will likely be heavier, and the ones after that are back to normal again.

[CWME]

Glad you are ok! I would definately pull the rest of the ammo in that batch. I would not shoot it in anything else.

Now onto more speculation for the cause=) I would be interested to know how long the case is. If you had a long case that was crimped it could spike your pressure. The brass is essentially in the throat and wont allow the case to open to release the boolit. Doubt it but also an option. I am more inclined like the others to think either a double charge or a bridged charge. If it is a bridged charge you should have a squib somewhere in the batch(reason for pulling the rest).

Take that for what you paid for it. Again, glad you are ok and able to shoot another day. We learn from these issues and move on. Thanks for the reminder!

[jonp]

If you have more of the same run of that ammo don't shoot it. Pull all of the bullets and weigh the charges.

[CJR]

In my experience, 45 ACP blow-ups have been caused by the following factors;
1. Double charged case.
2. Bullet being pushed deeper into case as round chambers. NRA did tests years ago on 38 Special rounds with bullets seated to various depths and pressure tested. Pressures were close to 60,000 psi, for deep seated bullets, as I recall.
3. Proper assembled rounds (i.e. correct powder, correct crimp, etc.) with missed crack case mouths. Because of the cracked mouth (no neck tension), the bullet can be pushed deeper into the case to raise pressures.
4. Squid powder charge causing bullet to lodge in barrel, followed by a full-charge round.

The 45 ACP fixes that have worked for me are:
1. Positioning a bright light, over the bullet inserting position of the progressive loader, to see powder charges in each case. Likewise, finding a powder that gives full case charges so that if a double-charge occurs it spills over everything.
2. Typically, after a case is resized the case mouth is belled. Unfortunately, some belling dies also enlarge the case mouth above its resized diameter and the taper-crimp is not tight enough to hold the bullet from being seated in the case during the gun's chambering process. I modify all my semi-auto belling dies so that the belling-die enters the resized case without enlarging the case diameter, i.e. only belling is done. This gives a very strong round resistant to seating bullets deeper during chambering.
3. During my case cleaning, I inspect all cases for cracked mouths and discard those cases. The bullet is mostly held by case mouth tension. Cracked case mouth equals NO tension to hold bullet.
4. Squid charges are also detected by the light positioned to examine the filled case before bullet seating. Sometimes powder measures will hang-up and drop a light charge.

Finally, I've been reloading 45 ACP so long that the headstamps are no longer visible but they work just fine. Likewise, I gauge every reloaded round to make sure it will chamber before it gets into the piece. Also, slightly larger rim diameters (caused by many firings) are detected by the gauge and trimmed accordingly. That step insures proper extractor tension and functioning. These fixes have evolved since I started reloading in 1957 and I hope they are helpful.

Best regards,

CJR

[whisler]

I am not as knowledgeable as most who have posted here but I do load on a lee classic cast turret press also and unless I have miss-read something here these rounds were loaded on that machine. If so, I don't know how you would double charge a case on one unless you failed to index and ran the case into the powder-thru expander die twice. My Lee pro-auto disc measure may not be as accurate as some measures but gross overcharges just do not seem possible with that measure except by failure to index, as it is a glorified Lee dipper. Please correct me if I have mis-interpreted some thing here.

Edit: On re-reading OP I notice that you said turret press but not Lee so maybe I read more into what you wrote than you intended.

[patsher]

whisler, you are correct. These were loaded on a Lee classic cast turret press. Your description of how it is used matches mine. That's why I initially was at a loss to explain a double charge.

BUT... given that there have been interruptions during my loading from time to time, and knowing that things happen which you absolutely cannot explain (in the vernacular, we say "xxxx happens").... there's no way I could say with any certainty that I did not put an excessive load into that case, especially given the evidence to the contrary.

I am in the process now of pulling boolits from the rest of that lot of ammo, and weighing the powder of each. So far, no extra heavy loads, but I found enough variation in weights to confirm what all the fellows, who spoke of the problems of maintaining exact weights with Red Dot when measured by volume at these small amounts, were talking about. DougGuy explained how he check-weighs each round using his press, and someone else earlier suggested the RCBS electronic weigh/dispense system. The other option to better control, mentioned by several, is to change powders to one which meters more reliably. I can see that one of these methods is in my immediate future!

Pat

[Larry D.]

Sounds more like it fired out of battery, pics would help a great deal.

That was my first thought, too.
That'll do some ugly things.

[LuvMy1911]

Pat, sorry about your kaboom... REALLY GLAD you weren't seriously injured.

1. I think I've had a come-to-Jesus moment about wearing my safety glasses every time I shoot.
2. I think I'll be inspecting my brass, and paying closer attention to neck tension.
3. I'll be watching this thread, hoping to learn the cause of the mishap (so that I may avoid any in my future).

Thanks for sharing the details of your mishap, it's not easy to ask for advice after an incident like that.

[Jim..47]

Pat

Do use anything to reduce the static from your powder measure? And what type and brand of powder measure do you have? I suspected a partial over charge from the beginning, so do you thinks that possible?

As far as different powder. I use Bullseye and have had no problems in dispensing. Even using my RCBS Uniflow charger, it really works good.

[CJR]

Patsher,

The next time you're at the range, I suggest testing your crimp/neck tension on the suspect ammo. Load a mag, go to slide-lock, release slide, DON'T FIRE ROUND, eject round. Do the same for every round in the mag. Now pick up all the rounds, clean them, reload the mag, and repeat chambering every round, BUT NOT FIRING ANY. Do this with 3 or more mags. Now compare these rounds to rounds that were not cycled through the piece to see if bullet push-back/deeper bullet seating occurred.

Best regards,

CJR

[sparkz]

WOW Pat,, Glad to hear your ok,,
I would still be cleaning out pants!!


round fired out of battery, might be answer esp. if your a stickler for powder charge and looking in each case,
Other things come to mind,
Posb. a "Bridged powder load from a mesure, not full 2nd charge but nuff to rune your day"
Might had been some junk (lead or brass, dirt) left from last load in breach to make this now, bad load not Breach-up,, Out of battery..
out-side of that stuff, I again Glad to hear your going to be okay, that would have me a bit spooked too..
Don't know, please post what they find out,,



Glad to hear it was only steel that took lions share of blast


Patrick

[Junior1942]

Re: ". . . range pickup brass."

Which had been fired how many times? New brass is far cheaper than a new pistol.

Maybe a double charge, too. According to Lee the 45ACP has a Usable Case Capacty of 1.14cc.

With a VMD for Red Dot of .1413 , 4.5 grs occupies .62cc. So my bet is a slightly compressed 1.24cc / 9 grs of Red Dot, and a blown up pistol.

[Bodine]

I have had that happen tome,but it was with factory ammo. I was told there was a squib load stuck one in the barrel and the next round blew the gun up. Much the same injuries and damage to the gun. If you were using reloads it is either that to a double charge.

[MtGun44]

Pat,

W231, Bullesye and Titegroup all meter very well. They are still low enough
on bulk to easily double charge, so please work on lighting and seating position
to make sure you LOOK INTO EACH CASE as you set the boolit onto it. A double
or missing charge is pretty easy to see that short, fat .45 ACP case. Not so easy
in .357 Mag!

This was my lesson from my KABOOM, and I diligently follow it to this day, at least
20 yrs later.

Best wishes and be safe.

Bill

PS Where in Wyo? I have a friend in Cheyenne and have been going into the Winds for
backpacking since '73 nearly every year. Nice state but parts of it are hard territory.

[Recluse]

Pat,

W231, Bullesye and Titegroup all meter very well. They are still low enough
on bulk to easily double charge,

Bill


Agree, and prior to the component shortage situation, I loaded my round-nose with W231 and my SWC with Bullseye.

However, I've been a huge fan of the Accurate Arms powders, aka AA, and at the first of the year, I managed to add an additional ten pounds of AA#2 and AA#5 (one of my absolute favorite powders) to my stash and have spent the past two months developing loads for the .45ACP that duplicate my W231 and Bullseye loads.

All of my .45ACP gets loaded on my Lee Classic Turret and I prime on the press. You can tell easily and instantly--as you yourself know--if a case doesn't prime correctly, so that is a variable you can take out of your reloading considerations.

It took me several months, but I now have loads using the AA#2 powder which duplicate my 231 and Bullseye loads. It's a spherical powder, easy to meter and since you're in Wyoming where AA is, you might have better odds/opportunities of finding some on the shelves at your local gun/sporting good stores.

:coffee:

[Bulltipper]

Good on ya Pat for bringing this thread! I would like to know what you find out. That could happen to me, as I shoot and reload a lot of .45 with older brass. Glad you weren't hurt seriously. Whatever the clods were writing, glad you cleaned it up Goodsteel.

[fredj338]

IT's very diff for powder to bridge & then double in fixed chamber measures. You may get no charge, but the metering chamber only holds so much powder. It is possible to double powders like TG, why I don't like it. In bigger cases, a triple charge isn't out of the question. Choose a powder w/ more loft, one that a double is obvious.

[PS Paul]

Applause to Pat for showing courage enough to bring this out for all of us. Given some of the things posted (now un-posted by mods- thanks.....), it is unlikely many will ever do the same, I am sorry to say. I sure wouldn't.

So I think we have learned some lessons about safety, courtesy, nicety and courage. Hopefully some humility brought on a few as well, eh?

[DrCaveman]

Boolit setback. Ive read nothing in Pats posts to eliminate that as a possibility, unless i missed something.

Shooting year old ammo. Unless ammo is uber-tried-and-true in a gun, why would you keep it? Shoot it off in the gun it was known to work in, if you dont like it then pull them like i have so reluctantly done so many times. Dont hold on to it and assume that it works in the different gun. That choice alone is a big no-no according to every loading book and loading fellow encountered here. Reduce the load for a new gun, work back up. (certainly dont rapid fire with said load!)

Pat i am glad that you and the people next to you on the range are OK. One thing worse than blowing off my own hand is causing cranial damage to an unsuspecting bystander. So i shoot in the woods, away from the general public.

I began a thread regarding neck sizing 45 acp recently which included responses stating a desire to be no closer than 3000 miles from me while shooting, with no posts pulled that i am aware of.

Lets not get into a gender-based sensitivity policy that prevents the rest of us from recieving the harsh yet proper warnings about dangers of reloading.

Say it again: boolit setback

Pat, thanks for starting the thread and i am very happy to hear that your mishap was not permanently injurious. It seems that your reloading practice is sound, and in line with most people on this board.

However, boolit setback due to inadequate neck tension in 45 acp can be easily underestimated.

That's my best help for the autopsy

[bbqncigars]

Patsher,
I'll agree with the powder charge variation/boolit setback theories as most likely. A combination of the two would definitely result in a bad day. What powder measure were you using? My rotary powder measures throw most flakes reliably, but I was taught to use them in a specific way. Start with the cavity in 'dump' position (down), put case into position and cycle cavity up to fill from hopper, pause a couple of seconds then dump, rotate back slightly and tap back into dump position and repeat this. PM me if you would like my spare Ohaus Duo-Measure (you pay shipping).

[NSP64]

Here is my "thousand words"
It was most likely a brass failure, due to Mfg .
Bwana is talking about this as seen in bottom 2 cases at roughly six-o-clock.
The smiley can be seen from the brass being off center when manufactured.
add in possible setback during cycling= BOOM
I had this brass up for trade(pulled them).
I never looked that close at my handgun cases, but will now.
Glad your O.K. Pat. I blew up a .270 a couple of years ago, and check my rifle brass closer now.
I hope the pics clear some things up.
All these are once fired nickel R-P factory range pickup(I talked to shooter, and they gave me the brass)

70321

[NSP64]

This pic it is on the left side from8 O'clock up to 11 O,clock


70322

So, out of the 50 R-P cases I got from the other shooter , I found three off-strike cases. 6% of the cases.
Hummmmmmm.

The case in the lower right looks like a Possible crack running around the base of the case. Might be edge of plating (nickel)? I will need bigger magnifier.

[NSP64]

So, I found three Speer Nickel cases fired from the same gun(firing pin marks the same). Cases are oriented to show shiny area at the bottom from 4 O'clock to 8 O'clock. I can feet something(ridge/crack) with a dental pic.
I thought separation in unsupported area? Stretch of brass under the Nickel plate?

70325
left click to enlarge

[NSP64]

So, I oriented cases with 'crack' in same bottom position.
Different orientations when fired. Kind of rules out unsupported ramp theory.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

70326
left click to enlarge

[NSP64]

So, after freaking out and going down and checking all of my cartridge cases, 9 millimeter, 38 special, and 40 Smith and Wesson. I have formed a hypothesis of the problem .
The hairline cracking at the base of the powder chamber on the inside of the cartridge case is normal. Part of the result of the expansion and contraction of the brass .
The problem probably arises when you have an off-center die making the chamber , as I showed in the 45 ACP first pictures . Then when the cartridge case cracks, like it normally does, there is a week area there that will allow the gases to escape after just a few loadings.
I will try and find some fresh 40 Smith and Wesson factory ammo, pull it down ,inspect it and then load it and fire it.

Maybe only full length size once if it is range/new to you brass, then half size for all loadings afterwards?

[patsher]

To answer some questions:

Jim..47 (1) no, I don't use anything to reduce static electricity in my powder measure, mainly because I haven't seen any evidence of static electricity build-up, like individual flakes of powder adhering to the sides of the powder measure. Is that what you mean?
(2) I use the Lee Auto-Disk powder measure
(3) and yes, a partial over-charge is possible -- I certainly cannot say with certainty I did not do that. Although there were no over-charges in any of the 150+ rounds I pulled boolits from the other day
(4) I wish I had some Bullseye to try! LOL. Not a drop in sight around here. (Although I did find a pound of AA#2 the other day!)

CJR, thanks for the instructions on how to check for set-back. I've pulled the boolits from all the suspect rounds already, so can't check that, but I could do that with some newly-minted rounds loaded my usual way to check the neck tension. That may very well be one of the contributing causes!

Junior1942, a slightly compressed load would certainly make sense given the damage done to my gun! And I don't know that I would have caught that during the reloading process, either!

MtGun44, (1) I found that I DO have a pound of W231 downstairs! When I started reloading seriously I was buying small amounts of all sorts of powders to try during load development. I will check back in my loading notes, but I seem to remember trying the W231 at one time, and liked the way it metered. I'll check my notes again.
(2) yes, I look into each case with a small flashlight on each round-- now. I don't think I was doing so when I loaded up "the KB batch". Thanks for the reminder to do it EVERY TIME!
(3) We are in east central Wyoming, and you are sure right about parts of it being a"hard" state! But I love it here-- you get really comfortable being able to routinely see 50 miles or more -- I get claustrophobic in a lot of trees, isn't that a hoot?!!!

Recluse, why do you load different boolit shapes with different powders? Are they more accurate with different powders or something? I have a pound of AA #5 on hand, too. And yes, the local shop has a number of Alliant powders in stock-- although not in great quantities. (You know, the reason I was loading Red Dot is that I have an 8 lb. jug of it, which I bought for about $103, so it made for cheap reloading. In view of the KB, maybe that wasn't a very good choice).

Fredj338, and that's another reason I was using Red Dot -- I could SEE the difference in a load in the "short, fat" 45 acp brass. I don't know. I'm still scratching my head over this whole thing!

DrCaveman, (1) shooting year-old ammo: It's a family thing. We've had some great family outings that just kind of came together all of a sudden, where we would go shooting one afternoon. Our son would take a bunch of his guns, and I would take mine, and the kids and grandkids (I'm talking young adult grandkids now, including one girl who was home on leave from the Army) would all load up and we'd go to the range. Now they are young people who don't have the extra money to be able to afford to buy guns and ammo -- so, Cliff and I would supply both. Everyone get to shoot what they want, try out new guns, etc., and Grandma (Me) gets to pay for it. They shoot up everything you bring. So after one of those outings, I have a lot of reloading to do. And so I load a lot, in order to get ready for NEXT time. It's a lot of fun to try new guns, and I have really believe in doing what I can to encourage the shooting sports. So if that means I supply the ammo to help them be interested, I figure it's a good thing. They will decide for themselves which guns they are interested in buying for themselves, but this gives them a window into the sport.

There were only 3 girls in my growing-up family, and while Dad hunted, I never got to fire a gun until after I was married. I think he probably would have allowed me to, if I had asked, but I was never invited to go hunting with him or anything. After I was married, my husband bought me a 257 Roberts rifle for deer and antelope hunting, and I was so proud! I STILL love that gun. It wasn't until after we found a brand-new Colt Detective Special 38 cal handgun in my father-in-laws effects after he passed away, that I wondered about shooting handguns. My husband said sure, I could shoot it, and so I bought some ammo and did. Then we found a tiny old Colt 25 acp in his stuff, and my husband said his dad used to keep it in his safe, and yes I could shoot it. So I had it checked out by a gunsmith, and shot that too. Then Paul let me shoot his S&W 357 mag Highway Patrolman revolver, and then... and then.... and then CC classes, and I figured out how much I enjoyed shooting handguns.....and now I have a lot of them, and load for all. And then I found Cast Boolits, and began THAT whole thing ..... my Lord, it never ends!

Anyway, I know ammo doesn't go bad, so I wasn't worried about having it for a year. (Except now, of course, I'm having to rethink how I do things)! And setback/ neck tension is high on my list of concerns. I can say this: I only bell the cases enough to allow boolit entry. I don't use case expander dies, so I THINK neck tension is okay. BUT... and this is new info... there was one round left in the gun after it blew up. I apparently did the right thing after the kaboom-- I found, when I picked up the gun from the gunsmith the other day, that I had picked up 4 or 5 ejected cases from right before the KB, and I had kept not only the blown-up case, but the next unfired round which the guys at the range that day dug out of the gun. And that round shows the shoulder of the SWC being a tiny bit below the rim of the case. That, to me, means there WAS a little setback on that one round at least. So thanks for the caution about setback.

NSP64, I that is a very interesting analysis. Now you've got me wondering. I'd like to hear what others on this board think along those lines. Is it even possible to half-size cases as short as 45 acps?

To all: Since I have those cases I mentioned above, I will get some photos taken. I have to teach tomorrow, but I'll try to get at it Tuesday morning and get them posted here. I did find out a couple of things: (1) the gun which blew up DOES fully support the case in the chamber (2) we (my husband, the gunsmith, and I) are thinking it looks more and more like it fired OOB, even though that's not supposed to be possible. The ends of the blown-up brass are splayed out sideways, and so is the rear of the slide. I've got to take some measurements, but the frame looks bent a little, also. I don't know whether this gun is salvageable or not, but I'm still going to send it back to the factory and get their read on it. At any rate, I'll get the pictures taken an posted, so you all can see what you think.

And regarding the gender issue, I know that I'm in a man's world here. I've always worked in a man's world, including 20 years at a power plant. Please know that I don't expect to be treated any differently from any of you. Whoever said that safety/danger issues are non-gender specific sure hit the nail on the head. What has been great about Cast Boolits is that I feel welcome to be here, and I am glad to be a part of this community. It is really nice for ALL of us that the mods help keep it that way, and I can see from so many of your posts that lots of you feel the same way. Thanks mods, and thanks, guys!

Pat

[patsher]

To answer some questions:

Jim..47 (1) no, I don't use anything to reduce static electricity in my powder measure, mainly because I haven't seen any evidence of static electricity build-up, like individual flakes of powder adhering to the sides of the powder measure. Is that what you mean?
(2) I use the Lee Auto-Disk powder measure
(3) and yes, a partial over-charge is possible -- I certainly cannot say with certainty I did not do that. Although there were no over-charges in any of the 150+ rounds I pulled boolits from the other day
(4) I wish I had some Bullseye to try! LOL. Not a drop in sight around here. (Although I did find a pound of AA#2 the other day!)

CJR, thanks for the instructions on how to check for set-back. I've pulled the boolits from all the suspect rounds already, so can't check that, but I could do that with some newly-minted rounds loaded my usual way to check the neck tension. That may very well be one of the contributing causes!

Junior1942, a slightly compressed load would certainly make sense given the damage done to my gun! And I don't know that I would have caught that during the reloading process, either!

MtGun44, (1) I found that I DO have a pound of W231 downstairs! When I started reloading seriously I was buying small amounts of all sorts of powders to try during load development. I will check back in my loading notes, but I seem to remember trying the W231 at one time, and liked the way it metered. I'll check my notes again.
(2) yes, I look into each case with a small flashlight on each round-- now. I don't think I was doing so when I loaded up "the KB batch". Thanks for the reminder to do it EVERY TIME!
(3) We are in east central Wyoming, and you are sure right about parts of it being a"hard" state! But I love it here-- you get really comfortable being able to routinely see 50 miles or more -- I get claustrophobic in a lot of trees, isn't that a hoot?!!!

Recluse, why do you load different boolit shapes with different powders? Are they more accurate with different powders or something? I have a pound of AA #5 on hand, too. And yes, the local shop has a number of Alliant powders in stock-- although not in great quantities. (You know, the reason I was loading Red Dot is that I have an 8 lb. jug of it, which I bought for about $103, so it made for cheap reloading. In view of the KB, maybe that wasn't a very good choice).

Fredj338, and that's another reason I was using Red Dot -- I could SEE the difference in a load in the "short, fat" 45 acp brass. I don't know. I'm still scratching my head over this whole thing!

DrCaveman, (1) shooting year-old ammo: It's a family thing. We've had some great family outings that just kind of came together all of a sudden, where we would go shooting one afternoon. Our son would take a bunch of his guns, and I would take mine, and the kids and grandkids (I'm talking young adult grandkids now, including one girl who was home on leave from the Army) would all load up and we'd go to the range. Now they are young people who don't have the extra money to be able to afford to buy guns and ammo -- so, Cliff and I would supply both. Everyone get to shoot what they want, try out new guns, etc., and Grandma (Me) gets to pay for it. They shoot up everything you bring. So after one of those outings, I have a lot of reloading to do. And so I load a lot, in order to get ready for NEXT time. It's a lot of fun to try new guns, and I have really believe in doing what I can to encourage the shooting sports. So if that means I supply the ammo to help them be interested, I figure it's a good thing. They will decide for themselves which guns they are interested in buying for themselves, but this gives them a window into the sport.

There were only 3 girls in my growing-up family, and while Dad hunted, I never got to fire a gun until after I was married. I think he probably would have allowed me to, if I had asked, but I was never invited to go hunting with him or anything. After I was married, my husband bought me a 257 Roberts rifle for deer and antelope hunting, and I was so proud! I STILL love that gun. It wasn't until after we found a brand-new Colt Detective Special 38 cal handgun in my father-in-laws effects after he passed away, that I wondered about shooting handguns. My husband said sure, I could shoot it, and so I bought some ammo and did. Then we found a tiny old Colt 25 acp in his stuff, and my husband said his dad used to keep it in his safe, and yes I could shoot it. So I had it checked out by a gunsmith, and shot that too. Then Paul let me shoot his S&W 357 mag Highway Patrolman revolver, and then... and then.... and then CC classes, and I figured out how much I enjoyed shooting handguns.....and now I have a lot of them, and load for all. And then I found Cast Boolits, and began THAT whole thing ..... my Lord, it never ends!

Anyway, I know ammo doesn't go bad, so I wasn't worried about having it for a year. (Except now, of course, I'm having to rethink how I do things)! And setback/ neck tension is high on my list of concerns. I can say this: I only bell the cases enough to allow boolit entry. I don't use case expander dies, so I THINK neck tension is okay. BUT... and this is new info... there was one round left in the gun after it blew up. I apparently did the right thing after the kaboom-- I found, when I picked up the gun from the gunsmith the other day, that I had picked up 4 or 5 ejected cases from right before the KB, and I had kept not only the blown-up case, but the next unfired round which the guys at the range that day dug out of the gun. And that round shows the shoulder of the SWC being a tiny bit below the rim of the case. That, to me, means there WAS a little setback on that one round at least. So thanks for the caution about setback.

NSP64, I that is a very interesting analysis. Now you've got me wondering. I'd like to hear what others on this board think along those lines. Is it even possible to half-size cases as short as 45 acps?

To all: Since I have those cases I mentioned above, I will get some photos taken. I have to teach tomorrow, but I'll try to get at it Tuesday morning and get them posted here. I did find out a couple of things: (1) the gun which blew up DOES fully support the case in the chamber (2) we (my husband, the gunsmith, and I) are thinking it looks more and more like it fired OOB, even though that's not supposed to be possible. The ends of the blown-up brass are splayed out sideways, and so is the rear of the slide. I've got to take some measurements, but the frame looks bent a little, also. I don't know whether this gun is salvageable or not, but I'm still going to send it back to the factory and get their read on it. At any rate, I'll get the pictures taken an posted, so you all can see what you think.

And regarding the gender issue, I know that I'm in a man's world here. I've always worked in a man's world, including 20 years at a power plant. Please know that I don't expect to be treated any differently from any of you. Whoever said that safety/danger issues are non-gender specific sure hit the nail on the head. What has been great about Cast Boolits is that I feel welcome to be here, and I am glad to be a part of this community. It is really nice for ALL of us that the mods help keep it that way, and I can see from so many of your posts that lots of you feel the same way. Thanks mods, and thanks, guys!

Pat

[patsher]

To answer some questions:

Jim..47 (1) no, I don't use anything to reduce static electricity in my powder measure, mainly because I haven't seen any evidence of static electricity build-up, like individual flakes of powder adhering to the sides of the powder measure. Is that what you mean?
(2) I use the Lee Auto-Disk powder measure
(3) and yes, a partial over-charge is possible -- I certainly cannot say with certainty I did not do that. Although there were no over-charges in any of the 150+ rounds I pulled boolits from the other day
(4) I wish I had some Bullseye to try! LOL. Not a drop in sight around here. (Although I did find a pound of AA#2 the other day!)

CJR, thanks for the instructions on how to check for set-back. I've pulled the boolits from all the suspect rounds already, so can't check that, but I could do that with some newly-minted rounds loaded my usual way to check the neck tension. That may very well be one of the contributing causes!

Junior1942, a slightly compressed load would certainly make sense given the damage done to my gun! And I don't know that I would have caught that during the reloading process, either!

MtGun44, (1) I found that I DO have a pound of W231 downstairs! When I started reloading seriously I was buying small amounts of all sorts of powders to try during load development. I will check back in my loading notes, but I seem to remember trying the W231 at one time, and liked the way it metered. I'll check my notes again.
(2) yes, I look into each case with a small flashlight on each round-- now. I don't think I was doing so when I loaded up "the KB batch". Thanks for the reminder to do it EVERY TIME!
(3) We are in east central Wyoming, and you are sure right about parts of it being a"hard" state! But I love it here-- you get really comfortable being able to routinely see 50 miles or more -- I get claustrophobic in a lot of trees, isn't that a hoot?!!!

Recluse, why do you load different boolit shapes with different powders? Are they more accurate with different powders or something? I have a pound of AA #5 on hand, too. And yes, the local shop has a number of Alliant powders in stock-- although not in great quantities. (You know, the reason I was loading Red Dot is that I have an 8 lb. jug of it, which I bought for about $103, so it made for cheap reloading. In view of the KB, maybe that wasn't a very good choice).

Fredj338, and that's another reason I was using Red Dot -- I could SEE the difference in a load in the "short, fat" 45 acp brass. I don't know. I'm still scratching my head over this whole thing!

Pat

[patsher]

To answer some questions:

Jim..47 (1) no, I don't use anything to reduce static electricity in my powder measure, mainly because I haven't seen any evidence of static electricity build-up, like individual flakes of powder adhering to the sides of the powder measure. Is that what you mean?
(2) I use the Lee Auto-Disk powder measure
(3) and yes, a partial over-charge is possible -- I certainly cannot say with certainty I did not do that. Although there were no over-charges in any of the 150+ rounds I pulled boolits from the other day
(4) I wish I had some Bullseye to try! LOL. Not a drop in sight around here. (Although I did find a pound of AA#2 the other day!)

CJR, thanks for the instructions on how to check for set-back. I've pulled the boolits from all the suspect rounds already, so can't check that, but I could do that with some newly-minted rounds loaded my usual way to check the neck tension. That may very well be one of the contributing causes!

Junior1942, a slightly compressed load would certainly make sense given the damage done to my gun! And I don't know that I would have caught that during the reloading process, either!

MtGun44, (1) I found that I DO have a pound of W231 downstairs! When I started reloading seriously I was buying small amounts of all sorts of powders to try during load development. I will check back in my loading notes, but I seem to remember trying the W231 at one time, and liked the way it metered. I'll check my notes again.
(2) yes, I look into each case with a small flashlight on each round-- now. I don't think I was doing so when I loaded up "the KB batch". Thanks for the reminder to do it EVERY TIME!
(3) We are in east central Wyoming, and you are sure right about parts of it being a"hard" state! But I love it here-- you get really comfortable being able to routinely see 50 miles or more -- I get claustrophobic in a lot of trees, isn't that a hoot?!!!

Recluse, why do you load different boolit shapes with different powders? Are they more accurate with different powders or something? I have a pound of AA #5 on hand, too. And yes, the local shop has a number of Alliant powders in stock-- although not in great quantities. (You know, the reason I was loading Red Dot is that I have an 8 lb. jug of it, which I bought for about $103, so it made for cheap reloading. In view of the KB, maybe that wasn't a very good choice).

Fredj338, and that's another reason I was using Red Dot -- I could SEE the difference in a load in the "short, fat" 45 acp brass. I don't know. I'm still scratching my head over this whole thing!

Pat

[patsher]

DrCaveman, (1) shooting year-old ammo: It's a family thing. We've had some great family outings that just kind of came together all of a sudden, where we would go shooting one afternoon. Our son would take a bunch of his guns, and I would take mine, and the kids and grandkids (I'm talking young adult grandkids now, including one girl who was home on leave from the Army) would all load up and we'd go to the range. Now they are young people who don't have the extra money to be able to afford to buy guns and ammo -- so, Cliff and I would supply both. Everyone get to shoot what they want, try out new guns, etc., and Grandma (Me) gets to pay for it. They shoot up everything you bring. So after one of those outings, I have a lot of reloading to do. And so I load a lot, in order to get ready for NEXT time. It's a lot of fun to try new guns, and I have really believe in doing what I can to encourage the shooting sports. So if that means I supply the ammo to help them be interested, I figure it's a good thing. They will decide for themselves which guns they are interested in buying for themselves, but this gives them a window into the sport.

There were only 3 girls in my growing-up family, and while Dad hunted, I never got to fire a gun until after I was married. I think he probably would have allowed me to, if I had asked, but I was never invited to go hunting with him or anything. After I was married, my husband bought me a 257 Roberts rifle for deer and antelope hunting, and I was so proud! I STILL love that gun. It wasn't until after we found a brand-new Colt Detective Special 38 cal handgun in my father-in-laws effects after he passed away, that I wondered about shooting handguns. My husband said sure, I could shoot it, and so I bought some ammo and did. Then we found a tiny old Colt 25 acp in his stuff, and my husband said his dad used to keep it in his safe, and yes I could shoot it. So I had it checked out by a gunsmith, and shot that too. Then Paul let me shoot his S&W 357 mag Highway Patrolman revolver, and then... and then.... and then CC classes, and I figured out how much I enjoyed shooting handguns.....and now I have a lot of them, and load for all. And then I found Cast Boolits, and began THAT whole thing ..... my Lord, it never ends!

Anyway, I know ammo doesn't go bad, so I wasn't worried about having it for a year. (Except now, of course, I'm having to rethink how I do things)! And setback/ neck tension is high on my list of concerns. I can say this: I only bell the cases enough to allow boolit entry. I don't use case expander dies, so I THINK neck tension is okay. BUT... and this is new info... there was one round left in the gun after it blew up. I apparently did the right thing after the kaboom-- I found, when I picked up the gun from the gunsmith the other day, that I had picked up 4 or 5 ejected cases from right before the KB, and I had kept not only the blown-up case, but the next unfired round which the guys at the range that day dug out of the gun. And that round shows the shoulder of the SWC being a tiny bit below the rim of the case. That, to me, means there WAS a little setback on that one round at least. So thanks for the caution about setback.

[patsher]

NSP64, I that is a very interesting analysis. Now you've got me wondering. I'd like to hear what others on this board think along those lines. Is it even possible to half-size cases as short as 45 acps?

To all: Since I have those cases I mentioned above, I will get some photos taken. I have to teach tomorrow, but I'll try to get at it Tuesday morning and get them posted here. I did find out a couple of things: (1) the gun which blew up DOES fully support the case in the chamber (2) we (my husband, the gunsmith, and I) are thinking it looks more and more like it fired OOB, even though that's not supposed to be possible. The ends of the blown-up brass are splayed out sideways, and so is the rear of the slide. I've got to take some measurements, but the frame looks bent a little, also. I don't know whether this gun is salvageable or not, but I'm still going to send it back to the factory and get their read on it. At any rate, I'll get the pictures taken an posted, so you all can see what you think.

And regarding the gender issue, I know that I'm in a man's world here. I've always worked in a man's world, including 20 years at a power plant. Please know that I don't expect to be treated any differently from any of you. Whoever said that safety/danger issues are non-gender specific sure hit the nail on the head. What has been great about Cast Boolits is that I feel welcome to be here, and I am glad to be a part of this community. It is really nice for ALL of us that the mods help keep it that way, and I can see from so many of your posts that lots of you feel the same way. Thanks mods, and thanks, guys!

Pat

[35remington]

"we (my husband, the gunsmith, and I) are thinking it looks more and more like it fired OOB, even though that's not supposed to be possible."

It's not possible. If you don't understand why, I'll be pleased to explain it to all three of you. Right here. The pistol cannot do that, and a bit of a disservice has been done to you in the earlier posts speculating this to be the case. It's not.

If the cartridge had a high primer, the cartridge still has to get under the extractor in the feeding cycle and the protrusion of said primer has to be less than the toleranced distance from extractor hook to breechface, and we can discuss that too. The idea is to lay the "firing out of battery" idea to rest, as it's easily done.

[Balduran]

What are the posibilities of a work hardened brass allowing the bullet to push farther into the case as it was fed into the chamber? Usually this would cause a jam but maybe if one made it all the way in the chamber?
donno,

Jody

[MtGun44]

Occam's Razor.


With W231, use 5.6 to 5.9 gr with a 200 SWC for a full power load.

Bill

[35remington]

Yes, it's human nature to blame the machine somehow.

What is not understood by most users of automatic pistols is the following:

If the gun is configured correctly to fire, it will do so.

If it is not, it won't. This gun, like many others, does not fire when it is physically unsafe for it to do so. That's what I was offering to explain, and the impossibility of "out of battery" firing. There's a double feature that prevents it, and a simple examination of the pistol will show out of battery firing to be, quite literally, impossible.

Yet comments like "out of battery firing" are still found. Most users have an imprecise understanding of the engineering built into the pistol in terms of safety redundancy, and it's easier to blame an inanimate object that cannot explain its actions.

Occam's Razor, certainly. When reloads are involved, the way to bet is........it's probably the reloader's fault!

The thing is, I use and favor Red Dot for 45 ACP myself. And I think it's a good choice for its high bulk that normally makes a double charge obvious, low cost and high velocity for low charge weight.

And the Lee Pro Auto Disk (even more so than the cheaper Auto Disk) handles it very well as long as charge weights do not go below 4 grains or so. Excellent measure. A double charge would occur on the LCC when the handle is lowered partway without indexing the press, then raised again to actuate the measure. It's possible if a distraction occurs.

[MBTcustom]

Yes, it's human nature to blame the machine somehow.

What is not understood by most users of automatic pistols is the following:

If the gun is configured correctly to fire, it will do so.

If it is not, it won't. This gun, like many others, does not fire when it is physically unsafe for it to do so. That's what I was offering to explain, and the impossibility of "out of battery" firing. There's a double feature that prevents it, and a simple examination of the pistol will show out of battery firing to be, quite literally, impossible.

Yet comments like "out of battery firing" are still found. Most users have an imprecise understanding of the engineering built into the pistol in terms of safety redundancy, and it's easier to blame an inanimate object that cannot explain its actions.

Occam's Razor, certainly. When reloads are involved, the way to bet is........it's probably the reloader's fault!

The thing is, I use and favor Red Dot for 45 ACP myself. And I think it's a good choice for its high bulk that normally makes a double charge obvious, low cost and high velocity for low charge weight.

And the Lee Pro Auto Disk (even more so than the cheaper Auto Disk) handles it very well as long as charge weights do not go below 4 grains or so. Excellent measure. A double charge would occur on the LCC when the handle is lowered partway without indexing the press, then raised again to actuate the measure. It's possible if a distraction occurs.

I tend to agree with the above. I still think it was a double/over charge. The description is identical to what I have seen with my own eyes (after the fact) from the same gun. I speculate that a barrel obstruction would produce different results, including an obvious bulge where the obstruction was located.

I could see a deep seated bullet blowing the casing, but I don't quite buy the idea that it can cause destruction of this magnitude, and it is certainly not a surefire kaboomer because I have fired many that were deep seated on purpose (don't ask).

I agree that the gun should not be able to fire out of battery, but even if it did, there would be nothing to contain the pressure, and it would simply spray brass shrapnel out the side of the gun, and lodge the boolit in the barrel. Again, I don't see where you get a kaboom under normal circumstances.

A double charge has the ability to bulge the slide and the rails, blow out the side of the frame, blow the brass, and not bulge the barrel except at the chamber. I can see no other way to get the pressure needed to accomplish all these effects.

[NSP64]

Without pictures, no one can say for sure.
I reserve my final thoughts till I see pictures.

[patsher]

Actually, I would be very pleased if the cause were to be found to be a doubled charge, because that's something I can control.

If it's something wrong with the gun itself, then I would be very concerned about ever firing that gun again.

If it's a doubled charge, then I figure I got what I had coming to me for being careless, or letting myself get distracted somehow. I know to many younger folks that sounds harsh, but that's the way the world works. Many other times I have received a moment of grace, but I think I learn more when the consequences are applied, however much I don't like it. I'm afraid that I tend to take those moments of grace for granted. To have been only slightly injured by this event is one of those moments of grace. I'll try not to blow it this time.

[patsher]

35remington, since you offered, and I am still learning, I WOULD like to have you explain here how an OOB (out of battery) firing was not possible, please sir. Perhaps others would be interested as well. Thanks!

Pat

[NSP64]

I would be interested.

[35remington]

I'm at work and will explain tonite.

Short version is that the sear or hammer cannot trip the firing pin or striker, and the presence of a disconnect or firing pin block.

More tonight.

Picture or no pictures, we can say with absolute certainty the gun did not fire out of battery.

[Multigunner]

The .45 ACP cartridge case as supplied for milspec ammunition was originally given a cannelure below the position of the bullet base of a loaded round. This formed a slight internal shelf specifically intended to prevent a bullet from being driven back into the case.
This is mentioned in the early manuals for the 1911 pistol.
Older Remington 9X19 ammo in my collection also has this cannelure.

I've seen adverts for new production ammo with this cannelure, with the extra safety factor given as the reason for it.

[35remington]

More often in commercial ammo an asphaltum cement, a kind of thick tar, is used.

[35remington]

Take your automatic pistol......Glock, Smith Military and Police, 1911, Sig, whatever.

Pull rearward on the slide until the barrel is obviously out of battery. This is easiest to see on those types like SIG's, XD's, Glocks and M and P Smiths that use the front end of the ejection port to engage and lock up the barrel. Out of battery means no vertical engagement of the front of the ejection port with the front end of the square barrel lug that is over the chamber.

Now, pull the trigger.

Nothing happens.....the gun doesn't fire.

Why?

First, the firing pin is prevented from going forward to hit the primer either by the slide being so far rearward that the hammer hits the firing pin stop instead of the firing pin, like a 1911, or the striker's sear notch is removed rearward from the sear. This is easiest to see with the gun apart. The trigger cannot activate what the hammer does not hit or the sear does not touch.....and it doesn't.

No way will the gun fire in this slide rearward, lugs disengaged position.

And that's not all. These guns also have either a disconnector, a firing pin block, or other mechanism that allows the firing pin forward to fire the primer only when the block or disconnector will allow trigger motion to transfer to the firing pin. The Smith M and P, for instance, has a round cylinder in the bottom of the slide that blocks the trigger/firing pin motion unless it is in position to be disengaged by a portion of the trigger's linkage in the form of a bar that moves to disengage this block.

Even should this be disabled, the firing pin is physically removed from the actuating sear or hammer in these automatic pistols once the slide is far enough rearward for the lugs or barrel lug to be disengaged. "Out of battery firing" can't happen, nohow, no way.

patsher, if a trigger pull caused the gun to fire and blow up on the same shot, the gun was locked up before firing. If it wasn't locked up a trigger pull won't make the gun fire......or blow up.

No way can you make the gun fire with a pull of the trigger unless it is correctly disposed to do so. It cannot happen any other way.

If your gunsmith friend is of any competency he should already know this. And should have ruled it out.

[MtGun44]

+1 on the post just above.

The only legit OOB firing I have seen was when my wife dropped the bolt on
my Automag after dropping a round into the chamber. The firing pin spring
was getting weak and the round absolutely fired out of battery due to the inertia
of the firing pin when the bolt stopped on the round. No injury but the gun was
unrepairable. I can get a new gun.

The firing pin spring is there precisely to prevent this from happening. Note that
AR15s do not have a firing pin spring, and have been reported to go full auto if
loaded with benchrest (very soft) primers. Note that all rounds that have been
chambered in an AR will have a very light primer mark from the firing pin slamming
forward as the round is chambered.

Bill

[NSP64]

Buuuuuuuut,
if there was a problem due to dirt/debris/burr, that keeps the firing pin forward, then as the slide slams forward, it could detonate the shell before it is fully in battery. slamfire.

Any mechanical item/tool can fail no mater how many safeties are built in.

I still need pics

[35remington]

The automag is a whole different animal, with a different bolt lockup than the Browning type in the guns mentioned above.

Considerable effort and dimensionality has been expended to ensure the guns don't fire out of battery with a pull of the trigger. And they don't.

Ever.

[NSP64]

+1 on the post just above.

The only legit OOB firing I have seen was when my wife dropped the bolt on
my Automag after dropping a round into the chamber. The firing pin spring
was getting weak and the round absolutely fired out of battery due to the inertia
of the firing pin when the bolt stopped on the round. No injury but the gun was
unrepairable. I can get a new gun.

Bill

Exactly

[35remington]

"if there was a problem due to dirt/debris/burr, that keeps the firing pin forward, then as the slide slams forward, it could detonate the shell before it is fully in battery. slamfire."

Nope. You've got to think a bit harder than that.

How does a round feed under the extractor and slide up the breechface with the firing pin sticking out?

Answer: it can't.

How does a round slide up the breechface with the primer sticking out even if the firing pin isn't protruding?

Answer: it can't.

In both instances the gun would jam the round long before it got to the chamber.

Another theory bites the dust, and it wasn't hard to do. So much for the "out of battery firing" idea.

Photos will reveal nothing. And this device won't fail. It's designed not to, and it won't.

[NSP64]

Take you pistol and slowly load a round from the mag to the barrel using the slide, it can load a round without it sliding up the breach face under the extractor, it can then the brass will seat into the chamber and snap under the extractor.
Never trust mechanical safeties
they can and do fail.

[35remington]

Try it with the firing pin sticking out of the breech. The rim will hit the firing pin and stop dead because the rim must pop out of the magazine at some point. The pistol doesn't feed slowly. It feeds quickly, and a protruding firing pin will jam the round run fast or slow. So much for a stuck firing pin being the culprit.

You didn't read what I wrote. There is no need to trust a mechanical safety, because the hammer cannot hit the firing pin because it is separated from it when the gun is out of battery. There is no mechanical safety to trust, and the idea that mechanical safeties can fail does not apply. Let that idea go.

In fact, your whole premise is really reaching. You need to manipulate a few automatic pistols and observe how they work.

Ask the original poster this question......did the gun blow up after the trigger was pulled? If it did none of your extremely unlikely scenarios had any relevance. Because the gun won't fire when the trigger is pulled when the gun is out of battery.

If the gun fired when the trigger was pulled, it was in battery. You can't argue with that one no matter what unlikely scenario you try to dream up.

Slamfires need not apply, nor stuck firing pins, because a pulled trigger means those things didn't happen. Nor did an out of battery incident.

[35remington]

Another comment relevant to the issue.

The powder charge used was light, as was the bullet in 45 ACP usage, comparatively. Likely pressures were under 14,000 psi. Considerable literature exists that suggests a 230 grain bullet at 810 fps runs in the 14,000 psi range. And we're below that in bullet weight using a powder charge that would be a bit below 810 fps with a 230.

So given relatively low pressures would be liberated were a "slam fire" even possible and the case somehow failed (a slam fire is extremely unlikely in any scenario, and any "out of battery" incident absolutely did not happen if the trigger was pulled) how is it that such damage to physically bend the gun in this way was possible? We're not talking about tupperware here, but a metal gun.

Send low pressures into a gun of this type and you won't bend metal rails. This gun was bent.

A rupture of the case at lower than normal 45 ACP pressures causing all the damage? That doesn't seem likely. Too much damage. Too many safeguards against out of battery firing. Too much of a reach to presume that a perfect storm of mishaps all line up perfectly to make low pressure devastating, and somehow bypass all the gun's safeguards that prevent the gun from firing out of battery when the trigger is pulled, when such safeguards do not have to be mechanical to work and are not subject to failure.

If someone is still thinking "out of battery" I really have to wonder why.

[MBTcustom]

35remington, I agree with everything you said, and you and I both know from experience that it's the truth.
These fellers are here to learn, and we are here to teach, like gentlemen. Quit with the personal jabs, or you and I are gonna have a conversation in PM, savvy?

When dealing with firearms, it is a dangerous thing to say that something can never happen. A slam fire is extremely unlikely, but I know for a fact it's possible. Like you said, things happen very fast, and metal starts to act like liquid (just watch some HS videos).
However, like you said also, that would cause the quickest double tap you've ever seen, with brass shrapnel flying out of the side of the gun, no damage, and I'm pretty sure Ms. Pat would have reported something about that.

When diagnosing a problem, you have to take the whole scenario into consideration.

[35remington]

Snarky happens when you bang off a reply without letting it "sit" awhile to reread what you wrote. I'll keep an eye on it and not submit so hastily next time to avoid any questionable content and stick to the arguments. No real offense was intended, mea culpa.

I'll let the argument stand on its own merits. It's a good one.

And if the trigger was pulled, the issue is decided as a out of battery didn't happen. My reading of the incident leads me to believe the trigger was pulled.

[patsher]

The trigger was pulled. One boom.

Pat

[NSP64]

Pics please.

[35remington]

Then the gun was in battery and safely so. It is not possible for any type of mechanical failure to influence this one way or another as mechanical failure is not possible. If the gun fired with a trigger pull, it was in battery.

At least that has been positively ruled out and you can narrow it down to more likely causes.

[NSP64]

Brass or load

[MBTcustom]

I agree.
In my mind it could only be a bore obstruction, a deep seated cartridge, or an over charge.
I doubt seriously that it was a bore obstruction because the previous cartridges kind of proved that the bore was unobstructed.
I doubt that a deep seated boolit or a ruptured case could cause this level of damage (and as I pointed out earlier, I think that a deep seated boolit causing a problem would be a one in a million scenario anyways).

That leaves the obvious conclusion.

The important information that is glaring at me, is:
1. The catastrophic failure of a very well built firearm which included bending the rails and slide.
2. The use of Lee powder measures (you won't find one on my bench)
3. The fact that the firearm was in full lockup
4. The previous cartridges which shot well (ie no mention of a squib which might lodge a boolit right in the middle of the barrel, causing an obstruction)
5. The lack of any mention of an obvious bulge in the barrel.

So this had to happen in a fully locked firearm, with a clear barrel. All the action had to take place in the breech.
Either she suddenly decided to switch propellants with this particular cartridge, and use something with a little more "kick" (like semtex? honestly, is there a powder that burns that fast???) or she used too much of a good thing.

It seems to me, you have to do a lot of fast talking and faster footwork to get away from an overcharge being the most logical explanation.

[35remington]

I'm not quite so down on the Lee measures if it was a Pro Auto Disk. The regular Auto Disk I'm not so thrilled about as the plastic hopper can wallow the screw holes loose.

The Pro, as long as charges of Red Dot are above about 4 grains, has no trouble with bridging, and you were above this level. I've loaded many thousands of Red Dot 45 ACP's with just such a combination with no issues whatever. As I mentioned, I use a lot of Red Dot and similarly bulky Promo myself for precisely the same reason you do....less risk of visually missing a double charge. Besides being able to obtain standard velocities with low charge weights. It's a quite good choice of powder for 45 ACP and I really can't put much stock in any pronouncements that would suggest otherwise.

So I think abandoning use of this powder really would not get you anywhere. Heaven forbid you switch to something like Titegroup, which is so dense that double charges are hard to spot in some instances. I really cannot think of another powder choice that would have better saved you from such a thing as a visually missed double charge, as only a few powders are bulkier per a given weight than Red Dot.

Bent rails and frame means, as was suggested above by GS and myself in an earlier post, lots of pressure. I doubt deep seating too.

I just trotted out the Red Dot and dispensed 9 grains (double your charge) into the 45 acp case I have handy and it fits easily. Cramming a bullet on top of it is quite possible as there is room and also further compression can take place. If it was dark or dim when you were reloading it could be missed.....and it could be missed even if it wasn't dim in your reloading room if you were in a hurry.

I would guess 9 plus grains of Red Dot is capable of some substantial pressures, but then so is a double charge of any powder that works for the 45 ACP as they're all comparatively quite fast.

I vote double charge somehow.

[NSP64]

I am leaning that way also.
I would still like to see the brass and gun pictures.

[NSP64]

When I blew up my Husqy, I wasn't sure if I double charged or what happened.
After I got the brass out of the chamber. The brass was to long (I pulled one that hadn't been trimmed after resizing). You could see the rifling impression at the case mouth.

Now all new-to-me untrimmed brass stays in a separate area of the basement until trimmed.

[patsher]

Okay, I here are the first group of case pics. (I'm having trouble learning how to post these pics, couldn't get them all at once, so you get them course by course.70686706877068870689706907069170692

[patsher]

Here is another group. The first picture in this group shows an undamaged case in the barrel, and you can see that the chamber supports the brass completely down to the extraction groove. The first picture in the previous post (#135) shows the same undamaged round. The OTHER pics in post 135 show the damaged round in the barrel. It only fits one way, and the shape of the torn flaps of brass match the shape of the rear of the slide -- splayed out.

What throws me is that the chamber covers the entire sides of the case down to the extraction groove, yet the brass of the damaged case is torn ABOVE the extraction groove! How could that happen? The brass of the extraction groove itself is torn away and missing, as well as a little of the case above the extraction groove.
70700707017070270703707047070570706707077070870709

[MtGun44]

I started a post, then reread and looked again, so added some more comments.

It is hard to see, but essentially all the guns that I have looked at have a small area
of partially or unsupported brass in the feed ramp area. My interpretation is that
overpressure blew out the case in the unsupported or partially supported feed ramp
area. It would seem to be most likely cause is excessive powder charge. This looks
exactly like about 4 other double/over charge blowups that I have personally seen,
including one that I did myself.

I suppose that some sort of defect in the brass case is possible, but when I am
critiquing my own personal problems, I assume that human error is always high
on the list, however little I like that. Others may interpret it differently. I think
there is no way to prove that the case was faulty or the pressures too high, but
.45 ACP is a very low pressure round and the case would have to have been
extremely weak to have failed at normal pressures. Would it have survived the
first firing (or others) and then fail later? I suppose it is possible, but I doubt it.

Bill

[patsher]

And here are some others; as you can see, there is no bulge in the barrel. I'm not sure you can see it in the photos, but the rail is spread apart a little from about the halfway point to the end. Ditto the slide. You can see the bottom rearmost edges of the slide splayed out.

The single complete cartridge is the one the guys standing around at the range dug out of the gun after the destroyed one ejected. The ejected cartridge was found about two stations to my right. Ditto the top part of the grip. Never did find the top part of the magazine follower-- don't know whether we just missed it or it blew away somewhere. The plastic portions of the following which are still in the magazine below the wildly protruding coil spring, are crack and broken.

I don't know whether it is helpful for you to look down into the chamber, but I tried to get a photo. Someone said that there's some kind of ejector rod missing on the inside, but I don't know whether that guy knew what he was talking about or not.7071170718707177071670715707147071370712707107 0719

[MtGun44]

How about the pressures being so high that as the slide started to move it was
still high enough to blow out as the case is moved a tiny bit rearward? I tend
to doubt that the pressure could be that high for that long. This would require
severe overpressure and a far longer pressure pulse than seems possible.

The lower left picture seems to indicate that the case is not fully seated, but
I think that it is possible that as the case blew out, the tearing action prying the
edge of the case down against the feed ramp may have actually pulled the
case out a hair even if it was fully seated when fired.

Other than the broken grip is the frame OK? Looks Ok in the pic, but no straightedge
against the right rails. It does look like the slide is bulged out a lot. If it were mine,
I'd at least try to put the slide in a press and push it back if there are no
cracks. Does this have the firing pin block pinned into a formed steel slide shell?
I have a P225/P6 with that sort of slide construction. Later they went to fully
machined slides. I saw a 1911 with a bad bulge in the area under the
ejection port bumped back into position with a plastic hammer and reused
with no problems. If the firing pin block is removable, I'd remove it and try to
push the slide back into shape in a press, then reinsert the firing pin block.
Or get a new slide, always expensive, but of certain quality and dimensions.

I don't think it will be possible to say categorically what the cause was beyond
that the case had more pressure than it could take. An incredibly weak case
that could fail dramatically like this with normal pressures seems much less
likely than human error, if I was evaluating MY reloading. Your
practices may be more error proof than mine.

Bill

[country gent]

Are there any bulges in the barrel? A sighn of a bore obstruction. I had a hoolow based wadcutter leave a skirt in the barrel . didnt blow the case but did bulge the barrel some. but this was a very light 38 spl wadcutter load. 2.7 of bullseye. Could there have been media, or something in the case that stayed in the barrel? with a full power or near full power load this could create a case failure and damage similar to. The big thing is everyones okay and not hurt seriously. My old 1911 38 spl wadcutter gun servived with a new barsto barrel being fitted is all. The big gest thing is to learn all you can from this Knowledge is Power. SLow down a little pay attention to details check and recheck. Its an opps the thing is dont let it happen again.

[patsher]

Here are some more. The single cartridge is the one left in the gun after the KB. If you look closely, you can see that the shoulder of the boolit is slightly below the rim of the case. It was not loaded that way. It was loaded to be slightly above the rim. Is that what you call "set back"? 70721707297072870727707267072570724707237072270730

[patsher]

And here are the last of the pictures: 70733707327073470735

[MBTcustom]

Here's a picture of my buddies Glock 36 45acp after a definite double charge. Looks pretty similar to me.
70731

[MtGun44]

I grabbed my only Sig, a P225 which is 9mm and is not the same exact gun but I wanted to
show that the unsupported area in this Sig is exactly where your case blew out.

Here are two pics. One is a case in the chamber looking down at the feed ramp area you
can see the unsupported area pretty clearly.

To make it even easier, I shot some black paint on a fully chambered piece of brass
and them pulled it out and photographed it. You can see that there is a thin area
that is unsupported, and this case is slightly too deep in the chamber.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70736&d=1368680416

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70737&d=1368680423

I assume that the "setback" round was next up in the mag? The huge pressure pulse above it
would likely push the boolit into the case. I have seen this before. Be happy that it didn't
detonate the next up round. The only 1911 that I have seen that was not useable after a
dbl charge had the second round go and enough containment to bulge the slide below the
ejection port. The owner hammered the slide back with a plastic hammer and it worked,
amazingly. I'd guess that the setback is only 1/16" or less, unlikely to cause a catastrophic
pressure increase in this large case.

Test your ammo by pressing the boolit as hard as you can against the edge of the reloading
bench with the round held in your hands. If the boolit pushes into the case, this could
be a significant factor or even the whole cause. Again, I think it would have to push in
nearly flush with the case mouth to raise pressures that high, but that is only a guess.

So, no bulge outside but is there a ring inside the barrel? It will be obvious if a boolit was
stuck and another hit it. The huge problem with this theory is that I have seen several guns
that have done this and the case did not show any signs of overpressure. Just the barrel
was bulged badly. Plus you would have probably known that the previous round was
very weak, I think you said it was normal.

I also note that the failed round has a normal firing pin hit, so not firing out of battery.
I tried with my Sig and the barrel slides down at least 1/16" before any rearward movement
occurs, so the primer hit would be way off center on the primer if out of battery. Also,
as 35 Rem said, the gun will not fire that way. If this was a striker fired design, there
could be some doubt, but with the hammer guns the hammer cannot reach the
firing pin at all if just a hair out of battery.

Weak brass or overpressure. Overpressure is a double charge or possibly a pushed in
boolit. If you can't push a boolit in by hand, it was not likely a push in.

You choose. I would bet heavily on dbl charge if it were my ammo and the boolits would
not push in by hand. Impossible to 100% rule out weak brass, but I doubt it.

It does look like that has the formed slide with the firing pin block pinned in. Is there a
cross pin in the rear 1/3 of the slide, with one roll pin inside another? If you are so
inclined and it is pinned, remove the block and try to reform the slide and get it to
slide on the frame. If this is possible, you may be able salvage the slide.

Bill

[patsher]

And here are some measurements, using an inexpensive digital caliper (and I'm no machinist, so I could be off a little):
Slide: front 1.007, F+1"=1.017, F+2"=1.034, F+3"=1.052, F+4"=1.077, F+4.5"=1.087, F+5.25"=1.090, F+6"=1.087.
Rail: front 0.900, F+1"=0.902, F+2"=0.903, F+3"=0.914, F+4"=0.936, F+4.5"=0.927, F+5.25"=0.920, F+6"=0.912, F+6-1/8"=0.910

On the rail, the F (front) +4" mark is right at the bottom of the feed ramp, and that's where the bulge in the rail is the widest. I assume rails are parallel when built.

[patsher]

Bill, in my Sig the case is supported in that area. So if it didn't fire out of battery, how did the side of the case get blown out?

[NSP64]

Pat, it looks to me like an over pressure incident.
The damaged case shows a slightly flattened primer, case failed before it could flatten more.

Clean and look at the inside of the failed case to see if it looks like the upper case in post #94 on page 5.

The sig locks up on the front of the barrel, excessive pressure could have forced the slide back over the front of the chamber allowing the brass to move rearward till the brass failed.

Put the barrel in the slide in the locked up configuration and see if you can move the barrel forward without lowering it from the slide.

[Crash_Corrigan]

The only Kaboom I ever had was when my wife was firing my EAA Witness 9 MM. There was a squib load that went pop instead of bang and my wife in the middle of a fast string of 16 failed to catch it and fired another round into an obstructed barrel. Thank the Lord that Tangafoligio makes an overengineered weapon. It only bulged the barrel and splattered some oily gunk onto my wife face and stung her shooting hand. MY bad....squib load.

I do however when reloading assign a number to each loading and write it down. Loading number, calibre, boolit including shape and weight, whether AC or WC and alloy cast from, powder, amount of powder, primer, press reloaded on and any info on the case used. All rounds made at that time are kept together in a separate container along with the info on a slip of paper or index card and a master list is kept in duplicate both in a file and on my computer.

I am up to loading # 545 presently and I also keep the brass from each loading separate from other brass and keep it together and thereby I am able to keep track of it and how many times it has been reloaded. Some of my .45 ACP brass have gone over 20 reloadings without a problem.

I have installed LED lighting inside the frame on the sides and on the top of my Dillon 550 and XL 650 to ensure adequate lighting and I keep a very close eye and pay full attention when reloading ammo. Now if I could just figure out a way not to have spilled powder on top of the shellplate on the XL 650 I would be a happy camper.

[MBTcustom]

Crash, that is the typical result of an obstructed bore. Bulged barrel, flying debris, no kaboom. At least not behind the chamber.

If all the damage happens in front of the chamber, suspect bore obstruction. If the area just behind the chamber is blown (especially the right grip panel), I suspect overcharge. I don't know why it is so often the RH grip panel/side of the gun that blows out, but I have seen it on more than one occasion.

[David2011]

There's something else that's kind of interesting in the pictures which raise questions more than giving answers . I agree that the blown case shows slight signs of more pressure than the others. All of the primers except the one in the blown case show some degree of a streak made by the firing pin, indicating that the action unlocked very quickly. One is slight; the others are pretty significant.

I see this sometimes in full house loads shot in my .40 S&W STI which operates at much higher pressures and reacts very quickly. It doesn't leave the streaks when I'm shooting lighter boolits at reduced loads.

Maybe the slide quit moving when the case blew. It just seems odd to me that the slide would be unlocking that quickly in a .45ACP gun. I don't have a similar SIG so no hands-on experience with the cartridge and gun combination but I do have a lot of .45ACP experience with competition and carry guns and have never seen the firing pin leave a streak in a 1911.

Sorry; I don't have any new opinions but did think the fast unlocking was interesting. I would think that would require a pretty stiff load in a .45ACP and just a little more might be enough to cause the disaster.

David

[MtGun44]

Pat,

Looking at the measurements, OUCH! ~.080+ on the slide and ~.030 on the frame is
not good. I would bet that given enough time, they might be put back in line well
enough to function. If you can do it yourself, it might be worth trying. If you have
to pay someone, and he/she has to stand behind the work commercially. . . not
likely to work either $$ or legal risk.

As to the failure, I'd section the particular case and see if it is thinner in that area.
Another possibility is soft brass. I suppose that a hardness check would be in order
if this were an unlimited budget investigation.

Can you do the spray paint trick on a case fully seated in your chamber and show a
pic of the case?

Bill

[MBTcustom]

That's an interesting observation David.
Good eye.
Strange that the flattest primer in the whole bunch is the one that blew, and it has no scratch at all.
I think that is caused by the cartridge recoiling backward very quickly after the firing pin touches it off (like dragging the firing pin out of the cavity it just made), but not being able to see it happen, I can't say for sure.

It's hard to say if that is part of the puzzle here or not.

Someday, I intend to get a high speed camera and I'm going to use it quite a lot to answer questions like this.

[alamogunr]

I don't have anything to add to this discussion except that I'm glad that the OP wasn't hurt. I have only had one KB and it was with factory ammo. It blew the extractor out and jammed up the gun(Beretta .40). It was several years ago and I don't remember the details. Beretta repaired the gun and Federal paid for the repair as well as sent coupons for a couple of boxes of ammo in return for the remaining cartridges in the box the defective cartridge came from.

I have read every post in this thread so far and hope others have also. There is a lot of good information here that may help me and others avoid an accident in the future. Thanks to patsher for posting this incident and all the details that went along with it.

[NSP64]

I was just at a gun store and handled a p220 in 45 ACP. I could push the barrel back an 1/8" and still drop the hammer.

[MtGun44]

Not a P220, a P245, but may be the same.

My P225 9mm will not fire if the slide is moved .020" and then the bbl
is ONLY moving down, still hard locked into the ejection port at that point.
No possibility that the round would be out of the chamber even .005"

Does anybody have a P245 to test? I am 99% sure I know the answer,
but let's close that 1% if we can.

Bill

[35remington]

What is not understood judging by some comments is the gun cannot unlock until the bullet is gone and pressures nearly zero even when the case ruptures. So the case didn't slide an "extra distance" out of the chamber before it blew, nor can the gun "unlock early." The forward motion of the bullet in the barrel holds it in battery until it is gone or, if it lodges in the barrel, forward motion is stopped.

Yes the case failed but the gun behaved just as it should. No early unlocking because it cannot do so.

Hammerless or striker fired pistols like Glocks and M&P's remove the striker/firing pin from the sear when the gun is out of battery so they can't fire out of battery any more than a hammer gun like a 1911 can.

NSP, I absolutely guarantee you can't fire that pistol out of battery and the one you handled in the gun store was still in battery when the hammer dropped. Absolutely cannot happen.

[35remington]

Most automatic pistols will allow some slide movement rearward and allow the hammer to drop but they are still in battery. Look more carefully next time at the engagement of the front of the slide and the square front of the chamber (essentially the lugs) and you will see that fully adequate lug engagement is present when the hammer drops.

The promotion of the concept of the gun firing a round with a pull of the trigger yet somehow the gun is unlocked when this occurs is worthy of the time it takes to utterly refute said concept.

It has no validity whatsoever, and it is not subject to occurrence due to the failure of a mechanical device because mechanical action is not needed to prevent out of battery firing from occurring.

[patsher]

Okay, Bill. I did as you asked. (1) I put the barrel in the slide in locked-up position. It will not move forward or backward at all when I push on it, until I lower the barrel.

(2) I did the paint thing: I put a fired piece of brass into the barrel, made sure it was fully seated, then hit it with the spray paint. My camera is refusing to download any pictures tonight, but they are taken, and when I get the download problem solved, I will post them. What I saw surprised me. I'll try to describe it. The brass is supported on all sides by the chamber clear down to the extractor groove. But when I hit it with the paint, there is a little bit of paint in a kind of quarter-moon shape on the side of the case. It happens where the feed ramp has been machined out. Is that the unsupported part of the case which was discussed many posts ago? And that is the same location where the case which blew up was damaged -- right above the feed ramp.

(3) I pushed as hard as I could on a loaded round, against the edge of the table, and could not push the boolit any deeper into the case.

Pat

[NSP64]

Pat, can you clean the inside of the case that ruptured?
Then compare it to other cases to see if the base of the powder chamber was correctly formed.


The gun was in battery when fired. Look at the location of the firing pin strike.
Centered on the primer.


I was making a statement about a gun I looked at. Period.
Look at my avitar and talk to me about mechanical safeties.

[35remington]

Said store gun was not out of battery when the hammer fell, and mechanical safeties failing will not make out of battery firing occur. So the role of any safety in preventing OOB firing needed to be put in the proper context.

Seemed like that needed to be reaffirmed.

[MtGun44]

Pat,

Yes, that paint showed you where it was actually an unsupported area at the feed ramp. This
is why I wanted you to do it. Not easy to see, but the paint can't get where the steel is
supporting the brass. This half moon unsupported area is the standard location for a blowout
from overpressure, and as you said - it is where your case failed.

The push on the boolit test shows that you did not have a boolit push in.

Both are more evidence on the double charge side of the scale.

Good detective work.

I hope the budget holds enough for a new .45. Have you considered a
1911? I am fan of Sigs, up to a point, they are absolutely quality
guns, no doubt. But -- my favorite is the 1911 and there are some
dandy versions being made out there these days. I recently had a
chance to look at the innards of a Ruger 1911 and it is a really well
made gun. A steel 1911 would have survived this, I have seen it and
done it. The only one I saw damaged had the top round in the mag
detonate, too. This made enough gas to bulge the slide a bit, but it
was small (<1/16") and he managed to move it back with a plastic
hammer.

Bill

[patsher]

Well, it's time to put this bad boy to bed. Most of the evidence points to an overcharge, and if it is true -- as one of the fellows here has repeatedly said -- that an out of battery firing is impossible, then the only rational explanation is an overcharge. So that is the answer I am accepting.

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who posted here -- you all have supplied a tremendous amount of information, and what I have learned here has been priceless. Thanks for your good wishes and your support, both posted here and in PMs. The people on this forum are amazing, and I am honored to be associated with you all.

I will be sending the gun back to the factory to see whether anything is salvageable, and I will post the results of that exercise when I get the information. Thanks again, everyone!

Pat

[MBTcustom]

Thank you Pat. We all need a reminder of what can happen, and that it can happen to any of us.
When I look down at how many members have read this thread, I'm glad that you posted this. As of now, you managed to tell 1291 shooters to be more careful.
Thank you.

[MtGun44]

Good luck, Pat - and once again, I am pleased that you were not seriously hurt.
Stay safe, and I hope that Sig can do something with the gun.

Bill

[NSP64]

Thanks Pat, I would still like a pic of the inside, bottom of the ruptured case.

[patsher]

NSP64, i will try to do that tonight after i get home from work.
pat

[sparkz]

Wow and here I had always been tought that Remington Idea was such that a sear disconnect would never alow that?
Is it posb that theirs something wrong with the gun you had checked?
I mean to say was it a used gun someone dumped or a NIB gun?
I know my 1911 Colt will not do that and its due to that disconnect,,

Pat;
More about your gun,
I dreamed about this so Put me down for a hour of OT (Own time) haha

I had thought as off center as it might be back in post like 93? theirs some photos of bad brass,, Might that be some of your issue when combined with a partial blocked bore? I was dreaming about the OOB thing and then thought Thats not soposta happen with a healthy gun so that would not be it (I fired that post off to soon) so Now I am thinking maybe things like a Over charged shell like a bridged load in a powder measure and or a Bad shell as pics in #93?, and or A Deep boolit in gun, heavy crimp. (Head-space off mouth of brass) and Once again Thank God Pat for saving your hand!!, I have been looking at every 45 shell we load super close this has spooked me, I love my Colt but love my hand more..

I hope some answers come so you can Never repeat this ever and we all can learn from your super close call,
the Guns going back the the factory correct?
hope they can offer some insight for you and for all of us,
and Super Good on you to post and make us all aware of $hit happens even to seasoned loaders so we all need to watch for everything as crazy or farfetched as they might be..

Patrick


I was just at a gun store and handled a p220 in 45 ACP. I could push the barrel back an 1/8" and still drop the hammer.

[MBTcustom]

Did you read the whole thread?

[NSP64]

OOB is dead.
Bad shell or increased pressure . Most likely.
I too have been looking at all my brass closer and have found several times some polishing media in the bottom of the powder space.