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joeatact
05-03-2013, 10:22 PM
Have heard alot about using fillers in 45-70 shells. Some good some bad.
What are some of your opions on using fillers?

Joe

joec
05-03-2013, 10:34 PM
I've never used them with either black powder or smokeless in any caliber.

MT Chambers
05-03-2013, 11:01 PM
There are too many loads for the 45/70 both light and heavy, where the cartridge is mostly full of powder and you don't have to play around with fillers.

rexherring
05-03-2013, 11:04 PM
The only use I've seen was for reduced BP loads as it likes to be compressed slightly.

mpmarty
05-03-2013, 11:52 PM
No fillers no worries.

rintinglen
05-04-2013, 12:59 AM
I have used them extensively in the 45-70. I consider them essential for loads with 2400 or Unique, or even most starting loads with IMR 4198 or 3031. Fillers properly used reduce velocity extreme spread on straight walled cartridges where less than 80 % of the available space is filled. I have repeatedly tested loads with powder forward, powder back, and powder leveled and invariably, the velocities are significantly different, especially between powder-forward and powder-back. I use bamboo pillow stuffing now, I have used dacron in the past. A tuft weighing about 3/4 grain, pushed on top of the powder by the base of the boolit and not compacted is ideal.
Larry Gibson has a sticky on it that is well worth the reading.

44man
05-04-2013, 08:09 AM
I use Dacron with 4759 in my revolver. I tried without many times because it is a pain. But loads with filler have an accuracy edge.
4759 is a bulky powder made for reduced loads in rifles so it fills a lot of the case, yet it still works better with a filler.
The case is huge and I never seen a use for a pinch of fast powders when a .45 Colt is out there. No need with slow powders in a rifle and BP needs wads if you don't reach the powder with a boolit.
I have shot much cast from 45-70 rifles with 3031, does not need filler and might be one of the best powders. It puts 4198 to shame, less recoil and much more accurate.

NSB
05-04-2013, 10:02 AM
I have used them extensively in the 45-70. I consider them essential for loads with 2400 or Unique, or even most starting loads with IMR 4198 or 3031. Fillers properly used reduce velocity extreme spread on straight walled cartridges where less than 80 % of the available space is filled. I have repeatedly tested loads with powder forward, powder back, and powder leveled and invariably, the velocities are significantly different, especially between powder-forward and powder-back. I use bamboo pillow stuffing now, I have used dacron in the past. A tuft weighing about 3/4 grain, pushed on top of the powder by the base of the boolit and not compacted is ideal.
Larry Gibson has a sticky on it that is well worth the reading.

My findings also. I also use a lot of 2400 and it is noticably better with a dacron filler used.

cajun shooter
05-04-2013, 10:14 AM
I suggest you do a in depth search of this subject via the sticky sections and the different threads on this forum. I have never used fillers myself as it has proven to cause barrel ringing and other problems.
Maybe the posters have been lucky up till now but it may be you that becomes bit.
If you want to play around with this then buy a cheap single shot. If you mess up your loss may be easier to recover from. There is a ton of printed material on this subject.
The material that I have read is some are very PRO and just as many are CON. It reminds me of those who handle poison snakes. Sooner or later you may be bit. Later David

Jim
05-04-2013, 10:19 AM
http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/HowTo/Kapok.pdf

joeatact
05-04-2013, 10:22 AM
My findings also. I also use a lot of 2400 and it is noticably better with a dacron filler used.

Is the dacron packed loosely? or how?

joeatact
05-04-2013, 10:45 AM
http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/HowTo/Kapok.pdf

Very Useful thanks

Joe

Larry Gibson
05-04-2013, 10:58 AM
A dacron filler most often greatly improves the ignition and uniform burning of many smokeless powders in the 45-70 just like most other CF cartridges where load density is below 80%. However, with powders faster than 2400 I do not use a filler but find a powder that does ignite and burn efficiently for the bullet used. Below is the thread and a repost of post #2 on that thread. You might also read my postings on my 45-70 loads for the TD on the Single Shot forum.

Larry Gibson

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers

I have for many, many years found dacron (polyester fill) to be the best "filler". I use a filler only when appropriate. Many think I always use a filler with every powder....I DO NOT!!!! The use of the filler can cause problems if not used correctly and when appropriate. If the powder is not correct for the bullet/cartridge combination then the filler is not going to make it "right". Many want to use a specific powder for a cartridge because the powder is "cheap" or because "they have a lot of it". There are lots of powders that are not only poor choices to use but that can be dangerous if used in an inappropriate bullet/cartridge combination. Do yourself a favor if you are wanting to use an inappropriate powder (usually "no data" available is an indication the powder might be inappropriate) and get an appropriate powder. You will save yourself a lot of frustration. The use of the dacron filler only makes an appropriate powder perform better. The dacron filler will not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

I don't use the dacron filler or a wad with the fast to medium burning "fast" pistol /shotgun type powders. I find one of these fast burning powders that is fast enough to ignite and burn efficiently at the velocity I want and avoid using a filler with them.

I almost always use the dacron filler in rifle cases with the slower “fast” burning powders (4227, 4759, 5744, 4198, etc. with lighter medium weight bullets for the cartridge; i.e. 140 - 165 gr bullets in .30/.31 cals of 30-30 through '06 case capacity), the medium burning powders (RL7, 3031, 4895, etc.) up through the slow burning powders (RL19, AA4350, H4831SC, RL22, 3100, etc.) that give around 80% or less loading density under medium to heavy weight bullets for the cartridge; i.e. 170 - 220+ gr bullets in .30/.31 cals. Those examples are for the .30/.31 cals but the same guidance applies to other calibers. The dacron filler is used only between the powder and base of the bullet.

The “dacron” is polyester fill as commonly found in pillows and toys. It also comes in sheets called “batting”. It can be obtained very reasonably at most any fabric store.

The dacron batting comes in various thicknesses. I prefer that which is about 5/8" thick. My wife recently bought me 10 yards which will give many, many thousands of cast bullet loads. With this current batch of batting I cut it initially across the width into strips about 3/4" wide. I then "eyeball" cut 1/2" wide chunks which is close to 3/4 gr.

A smaller chunk is cut for 1/2 gr and larger for a larger amount. I've cut some chunks that weight 1/2, 3/4, 1, 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 grs and have them in a "snack" baggie stuck on a poster board above my loading bench for quick reference when I need to cut new chunks. The batting will run thin and thick throughout the sheet so I again just "eyeball it" based on the thickness of the batting when cutting the chunks.

Pretty extensive tests have demonstrated that the weight of the filler does not have to be exact, only close. What is important is that there is enough so that it “fills" the space between powder and bullet. A little too much hurts nothing but too little poses problems. That's why I have the different size "chunks" so I can use the right size for the case capacity I am filling. For example; with most medium burning powders (3031, 4895, 4064) in and '06 to function an M1 a 3/4 gr dacron filler is about right. With slower powders that give a higher loading density like 4831 a 1/2 gr filler is about right.

I use a section of .22 cal cleaning rod in cartridges of .30 - .375 cal to push the Dacron chunk inside the case just so it is all in. The 6 to 10" section gives plenty to hold onto and sufficient "feel". Merely hold the chunk of dacron over the case mouth and shove it in with the rod. Sometimes it takes a couple three pokes to ensure all is inside the case mouth. I poke the chunks in until all the dacron is at the bottom of the neck or at least all in the case. It doesn’t matter exactly where just so long as you don’t tamp it down on the powder as a wad and leaved a space between the base of the bullet and the dacron.

What you want to do is push it in to let the base of the bullet finish pushing it down and adding any compression against the powder. Thus I do not push it down on the powder but let the bullet do that when the bullet is seated. Using the right size chunk of dacron this method then provides a "filler" in the air space between the powder and base of the bullet.

A small length of coat hanger works for the .22-7mm cartridges and an unsharpened pencil works well for .45 cals. With the charged cases in a loading block I simply hold the chunk of dacron over the case mouth and push it in with the rod. It is quite easy and a lot of “precision is not required, just get the dacron into the case and let the bullet finish pushing it down.

Larry Gibson

runfiverun
05-04-2013, 11:00 AM
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers

there is another sticky on the matter but I can't seem to find it.

http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=001951264366462437169:ggn3vg-bjum
this might help make it easier to find what you are looking for here.


looks like Larry was typing while I was.

joeatact
05-04-2013, 11:21 AM
A dacron filler most often greatly improves the ignition and uniform burning of many smokeless powders in the 45-70 just like most other CF cartridges where load density is below 80%. However, with powders faster than 2400 I do not use a filler but find a powder that does ignite and burn efficiently for the bullet used. Below is the thread and a repost of post #2 on that thread. You might also read my postings on my 45-70 loads for the TD on the Single Shot forum.

Larry Gibson

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers

I have for many, many years found dacron (polyester fill) to be the best "filler". I use a filler only when appropriate. Many think I always use a filler with every powder....I DO NOT!!!! The use of the filler can cause problems if not used correctly and when appropriate. If the powder is not correct for the bullet/cartridge combination then the filler is not going to make it "right". Many want to use a specific powder for a cartridge because the powder is "cheap" or because "they have a lot of it". There are lots of powders that are not only poor choices to use but that can be dangerous if used in an inappropriate bullet/cartridge combination. Do yourself a favor if you are wanting to use an inappropriate powder (usually "no data" available is an indication the powder might be inappropriate) and get an appropriate powder. You will save yourself a lot of frustration. The use of the dacron filler only makes an appropriate powder perform better. The dacron filler will not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

I don't use the dacron filler or a wad with the fast to medium burning "fast" pistol /shotgun type powders. I find one of these fast burning powders that is fast enough to ignite and burn efficiently at the velocity I want and avoid using a filler with them.

I almost always use the dacron filler in rifle cases with the slower “fast” burning powders (4227, 4759, 5744, 4198, etc. with lighter medium weight bullets for the cartridge; i.e. 140 - 165 gr bullets in .30/.31 cals of 30-30 through '06 case capacity), the medium burning powders (RL7, 3031, 4895, etc.) up through the slow burning powders (RL19, AA4350, H4831SC, RL22, 3100, etc.) that give around 80% or less loading density under medium to heavy weight bullets for the cartridge; i.e. 170 - 220+ gr bullets in .30/.31 cals. Those examples are for the .30/.31 cals but the same guidance applies to other calibers. The dacron filler is used only between the powder and base of the bullet.

The “dacron” is polyester fill as commonly found in pillows and toys. It also comes in sheets called “batting”. It can be obtained very reasonably at most any fabric store.

The dacron batting comes in various thicknesses. I prefer that which is about 5/8" thick. My wife recently bought me 10 yards which will give many, many thousands of cast bullet loads. With this current batch of batting I cut it initially across the width into strips about 3/4" wide. I then "eyeball" cut 1/2" wide chunks which is close to 3/4 gr.

A smaller chunk is cut for 1/2 gr and larger for a larger amount. I've cut some chunks that weight 1/2, 3/4, 1, 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 grs and have them in a "snack" baggie stuck on a poster board above my loading bench for quick reference when I need to cut new chunks. The batting will run thin and thick throughout the sheet so I again just "eyeball it" based on the thickness of the batting when cutting the chunks.

Pretty extensive tests have demonstrated that the weight of the filler does not have to be exact, only close. What is important is that there is enough so that it “fills" the space between powder and bullet. A little too much hurts nothing but too little poses problems. That's why I have the different size "chunks" so I can use the right size for the case capacity I am filling. For example; with most medium burning powders (3031, 4895, 4064) in and '06 to function an M1 a 3/4 gr dacron filler is about right. With slower powders that give a higher loading density like 4831 a 1/2 gr filler is about right.

I use a section of .22 cal cleaning rod in cartridges of .30 - .375 cal to push the Dacron chunk inside the case just so it is all in. The 6 to 10" section gives plenty to hold onto and sufficient "feel". Merely hold the chunk of dacron over the case mouth and shove it in with the rod. Sometimes it takes a couple three pokes to ensure all is inside the case mouth. I poke the chunks in until all the dacron is at the bottom of the neck or at least all in the case. It doesn’t matter exactly where just so long as you don’t tamp it down on the powder as a wad and leaved a space between the base of the bullet and the dacron.

What you want to do is push it in to let the base of the bullet finish pushing it down and adding any compression against the powder. Thus I do not push it down on the powder but let the bullet do that when the bullet is seated. Using the right size chunk of dacron this method then provides a "filler" in the air space between the powder and base of the bullet.

A small length of coat hanger works for the .22-7mm cartridges and an unsharpened pencil works well for .45 cals. With the charged cases in a loading block I simply hold the chunk of dacron over the case mouth and push it in with the rod. It is quite easy and a lot of “precision is not required, just get the dacron into the case and let the bullet finish pushing it down.

Larry Gibson

Very informative thanks alot

Joe

NSB
05-04-2013, 12:54 PM
Is the dacron packed loosely? or how?

It's a very small amount of pillow filler purchased in a bulk bag at Wal Mart. You get enough in one bag to last a lifetime. You "pluck" it up to space it out and simply put it on top of the powder. Don't pack it down. Ringing comes from packing a filler on the powder and leaving an air space in between. This won't happen with the dacron filler....no air space there. Again, it's a very small amount of material actually being used.

joeatact
05-04-2013, 01:20 PM
It's a very small amount of pillow filler purchased in a bulk bag at Wal Mart. You get enough in one bag to last a lifetime. You "pluck" it up to space it out and simply put it on top of the powder. Don't pack it down. Ringing comes from packing a filler on the powder and leaving an air space in between. This won't happen with the dacron filler....no air space there. Again, it's a very small amount of material actually being used.

thanks for the info

Joe