A VERY good day at the range!

[LittleBill]

Today I got to put a lot of the stuff I have been learning here to the test. After some trial runs, a few experiments, and some disappointing results, I got to shoot some of my best boolits to date. I put 25 rounds though each of two handguns, a Colt 1911 and a Ruger Bisley Vaquero in .45 Colt. Below are some pictures of my results.

First up are some pictures of my barrel from the 1911. I was shooting 200 grain LSWC boolits cast from a Lee mold, 1/2 wheel weights and 1/2 pure lead over 5.0 grains of Titegroup. The boolits were sized to .452 with a Lee push through sizer and lubed with some TAC1 I bought from randyrat. The only dirt in the barrel seems to be from powder residue. One pass with a boresnake cleaned it up very well.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o159/FotoBill/colt01_zps073b956d.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/FotoBill/media/colt01_zps073b956d.jpg.html)

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o159/FotoBill/colt02_zps908e368c.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/FotoBill/media/colt02_zps908e368c.jpg.html)

Next up are some pics of my Ruger Bisley Vaquero. I was shooting a 252 grain LSWC Lee tumble lube design over 5.8 grains of Titegroup, sized to .454. I think they could be sized to .452 as well, and the next batch will be, just to see how it performs. The alloy mix was the same as above. They were lubed with 1/2 Lee Liquid Alox and 1/2 paste wax. I know Johnson's is the big favorite here, but all I had was Myland's. The first picture is 25 rounds at eight yards, two handed modified slouch position. The two following pics are before and after of the barrel.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o159/FotoBill/vaquero03_zps3aa096ff.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/FotoBill/media/vaquero03_zps3aa096ff.jpg.html)

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o159/FotoBill/vaquero01_zpsbc52629b.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/FotoBill/media/vaquero01_zpsbc52629b.jpg.html)

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o159/FotoBill/vaquero02_zpse0339b91.jpg (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/FotoBill/media/vaquero02_zpse0339b91.jpg.html)

I got what looked to be a very minor bit of leading. I am not really sure. I ran a boresnake through the barrel and it was still there, so I took my brush with the Chore Boy wrapped around it, and with less than five seconds of work - I am talking about four strokes - it was as shiny as could be. One more pass with the snake got rid of all the little loose bits for the second picture.

Overall I am very happy with my progress. I owe a very big THANK YOU to all of you who have helped me along to this point. Now I need to find some time to slug a few more barrels, and of course, cast some more boolits. :mrgreen:

[WHITETAIL]

Bill,
That just shows you how smart the people
on this forum are.:awesome:
Put out any question, and someone will answer you.

[Pilgrim]

If you are getting a small amount of leading at the forcing cone end of the barrel, you aren't gonna be at all happy with .452 sized boolits. It appears as if the .454 boolits aren't quite sealing the "bore" at the cylinder throat, and making it smaller most likely isn't gonna improve things re:leading. IMO...Pilgrim

[LittleBill]

Bill,
That just shows you how smart the people
on this forum are.:awesome:
Put out any question, and someone will answer you.

We might be neighbors! I am in eastern PA, about halfway down the state. I grew up in NEPA.


If you are getting a small amount of leading at the forcing cone end of the barrel, you aren't gonna be at all happy with .452 sized boolits. It appears as if the .454 boolits aren't quite sealing the "bore" at the cylinder throat, and making it smaller most likely isn't gonna improve things re:leading. IMO...Pilgrim

I did not see any leading at the forcing cone area. The only thing that might be leading was towards the muzzle end of the barrel, which is the end you are looking down in the pictures.

[Pilgrim]

In that case your problem is most likely lube failure.

[454PB]

I've seen leading......and you don't have any problems.

Great pictures, by the way!

[LittleBill]

I've seen leading......and you don't have any problems.

Great pictures, by the way!

Thanks! Yeah, I am thinking if this is as bad as it gets, I will be very happy. This does mean that the commercial boolits I bought are probably going into the pot. I am not sure if it is the size or the lube, but they left a lot more residue in my 1911 barrel.

[44man]

69436I have never had leading from a 50-50 mix but I get fliers.
Try straight WW's, make the boolits harder.
Use a better lube. Both of these things need tried because both will affect accuracy.
Check throat size in the Vaquero and make sure they are over groove size. Size .452". The Ruger can have throats too small. Either way, .454" is too large.
What you need to get away from is just looking at bore condition.
Can I beat you with a stick? Why are you shooting 8 yards? It looks like you can shoot good but I see things not related to you.
I am old and very harsh when it comes to revolvers so forgive me. But you should be testing at 50 yards with the Colt. Shoot Creedmore or from a rest to test, then go to off hand. Never test loads off hand. You just can't tell at close range or off hand.
Stop looking in the barrels, barrels with accurate loads can be FILTHY! The whole gun can be FILTHY. The Vaquero is an amazing gun and I have shot many 1" groups at 75 yards and dropped deer over 100 off hand. Mine has not been cleaned in about 5 years other then the cylinder pin and new STP applied. Lube the pin and ratchet.
I had an argument on another site so I grabbed 5 rounds, went down to my range and shot them Creedmore, off the side of my leg at 50 yards. I posted and got kicked off the site! [smilie=s:
I know the gun and will help all I can.

[runfiverun]

I wouldn't have even bothered to clean the barrels.
move back to 25 yds or so and try a few things, have fun.
try water dropping, try adding a little oil to the lube, try partial sizing.
shrug.
heck just shoot how you want, but if you want improvement talk to 44 man about things to try.
he has tried just bout everything in a revolver.

[LittleBill]

69436I have never had leading from a 50-50 mix but I get fliers.
Try straight WW's, make the boolits harder.
Use a better lube. Both of these things need tried because both will affect accuracy.
Check throat size in the Vaquero and make sure they are over groove size. Size .452". The Ruger can have throats too small. Either way, .454" is too large.
What you need to get away from is just looking at bore condition.
Can I beat you with a stick? Why are you shooting 8 yards? It looks like you can shoot good but I see things not related to you.
I am old and very harsh when it comes to revolvers so forgive me. But you should be testing at 50 yards with the Colt. Shoot Creedmore or from a rest to test, then go to off hand. Never test loads off hand. You just can't tell at close range or off hand.
Stop looking in the barrels, barrels with accurate loads can be FILTHY! The whole gun can be FILTHY. The Vaquero is an amazing gun and I have shot many 1" groups at 75 yards and dropped deer over 100 off hand. Mine has not been cleaned in about 5 years other then the cylinder pin and new STP applied. Lube the pin and ratchet.
I had an argument on another site so I grabbed 5 rounds, went down to my range and shot them Creedmore, off the side of my leg at 50 yards. I posted and got kicked off the site! [smilie=s:
I know the gun and will help all I can.

Well you could try beating me with a stick. :-P I don't mind criticism at all if it helps me along in what I want to do. I plan to move further out, but I was as close as I was because that is where the firing line was that day. I'm still learning here, so when you write filthy, I assume you are talking about regular dirt and not leading, correct? Leading seems to be the big bogeyman here, which is why I have been concerned about it.

What lube would you recommend? I don't know that there are that many choices for a TL design, but then again, that is why I ask lots of questions here. I have an NOE mold I just got that will make boolits suitable for shooting out of the Vaquero, and that has a conventional grease groove in it. What lube would you recommend for that one?

[Lizard333]

I use and recommend carnuba red from while label. If you want, send me a pm and I'll send you a stick to try out. My dime.

I don't think you will be disappointed. It's all I use now, rifle or handgun. Works great.

Doug

[1Shirt]

I also like Can Red for most everything as long as it is shot in temps above 50 degrees or so.
1Shirt!

[LittleBill]

I use and recommend carnuba red from while label. If you want, send me a pm and I'll send you a stick to try out. My dime.

I don't think you will be disappointed. It's all I use now, rifle or handgun. Works great.

Doug

PM inbound.

[DougGuy]

If the .454 isn't sealing the bore that could probably mean that the cylinder throats might be tight and/or the barrel may be constricted at the threads, an event which will assure the bullets are closer to .449" when they get through that section and head down the barrel. Try driving a dead soft lead ball or an egg sinker down a clean and lubed bore, if it stops and requires great effort to drive it through the part that threads into the frame, right there is a significant problem.

A pistol that shoots well and doesn't lead is a combination of several things. Hardness, pressure, lube, and of course bullet size. Change any one of those and it affects the others. Meaning that if there is a tight dimension that swages the boolit as it fires, no amount of lube in the world is going to make up for that.

[44man]

Well you could try beating me with a stick. :-P I don't mind criticism at all if it helps me along in what I want to do. I plan to move further out, but I was as close as I was because that is where the firing line was that day. I'm still learning here, so when you write filthy, I assume you are talking about regular dirt and not leading, correct? Leading seems to be the big bogeyman here, which is why I have been concerned about it.

What lube would you recommend? I don't know that there are that many choices for a TL design, but then again, that is why I ask lots of questions here. I have an NOE mold I just got that will make boolits suitable for shooting out of the Vaquero, and that has a conventional grease groove in it. What lube would you recommend for that one?
Not being critical, just that shooting too close can negate any load work. Still fun of course and I understand about the shooting range. A friend belonged to one that would not allow a handgun on the rifle range.
Now you can use a regular lube on TL boolits, nothing says they need tumbled. I use Felix mostly but CR works fine although a little hard. I don't like my lube sizer and mostly lube by hand and run through Lee dies. I tried it with CR and got a heck of a blister! :veryconfu Softer lubes work best and Glen makes all kinds of good stuff. LBT soft blue works. I don't like Alox but 50-50 Alox and beeswax works. Lots of good recipes for lube here, like Ben's Red, Speed Green, etc.
Yeah, my guns get dirty with carbon but no leading. Those times I tried straight Alox, the bores leaded. Most guys here mix it with other stuff.
Back to the TL boolits. I shoot the RD 265 gr from my .44 with Felix lube. A friend was here and I found one shot left in my box. I had a golf ball taped to a string at 50 yards, put my red dot on it and centered the ball. This boolit will do 3/4" at 50 and 1-1/4" at 100 but not with Alox.
I spent many years doing back to back lube tests and it is amazing how it can change groups. Just going to LBT hard blue doubled groups, same with Lyman Orange Magic.

[LittleBill]

Not being critical, just that shooting too close can negate any load work. Still fun of course and I understand about the shooting range. A friend belonged to one that would not allow a handgun on the rifle range.
Now you can use a regular lube on TL boolits, nothing says they need tumbled. I use Felix mostly but CR works fine although a little hard. I don't like my lube sizer and mostly lube by hand and run through Lee dies. I tried it with CR and got a heck of a blister! :veryconfu Softer lubes work best and Glen makes all kinds of good stuff. LBT soft blue works. I don't like Alox but 50-50 Alox and beeswax works. Lots of good recipes for lube here, like Ben's Red, Speed Green, etc.
Yeah, my guns get dirty with carbon but no leading. Those times I tried straight Alox, the bores leaded. Most guys here mix it with other stuff.
Back to the TL boolits. I shoot the RD 265 gr from my .44 with Felix lube. A friend was here and I found one shot left in my box. I had a golf ball taped to a string at 50 yards, put my red dot on it and centered the ball. This boolit will do 3/4" at 50 and 1-1/4" at 100 but not with Alox.
I spent many years doing back to back lube tests and it is amazing how it can change groups. Just going to LBT hard blue doubled groups, same with Lyman Orange Magic.

I don't worry too much about carbon fouling. I shoot my .22s until the action won't work anymore before cleaning them. I have been on the lookout for leading, which I got from some commercial cast. Looking back on it, I think it may have been the lube. I am going to check into that. I started out with straight Alox, but the last few times I have lubed boolits, I have used a half and half mix of Alox and paste wax, which was recommended to me by a gentleman I know both here and from another board.

What is LBT? I recognize the references to Ben's Red and Speed Green, but not LBT. Then again, it may be something painfully obvious. I am not above missing that from time to time. And when you say it doubled groups, do you mean that improved them?

[44man]

69698LBT is Lead Bullets Technology. Veral does NOT like "boolit" by the way! [smilie=w:
Doubling groups means they are twice the size.
This is what I mean, LBT hard blue on the left and Felix on the right. Shot at 50 yards. LBT soft will be like the right side.

[44man]

It sounds strange but any lube should be tested. I use Felix as my baseline and a lube that will equal it, I will use. Any that don't will not be put on my boolits.
Find an accurate load and just change lubes. Some clean before changing lube but I found it does not matter enough.
Same as primers when I test them. I found it did no good to try and work a load around a primer, they never came in so I just use the same load now. They are never max where I need to worry about pressures.
Just a refinement to shorten work since it did not matter enough to get uptight about. Too many years doing things the "right" way and wasting a ton of lead and powder.
The difference between a LP and LP mag does not amount to much except accuracy but a move to a LR primer NEEDS a reduction and work up. That in itself can be dangerous with some powders.
Powder companies and custom makers told me to NOT use a LR primer in the .475 Linebaugh because of pressure issues and I only use the LP mag in it and the .500 JRH.
The .475 is made from 45-70 parent brass with a LR pocket but it should not be used.
Too much primer pressure can move a boolit well into the bore before pressure comes up.

[LittleBill]

It sounds strange but any lube should be tested. I use Felix as my baseline and a lube that will equal it, I will use. Any that don't will not be put on my boolits.
Find an accurate load and just change lubes. Some clean before changing lube but I found it does not matter enough.
Same as primers when I test them. I found it did no good to try and work a load around a primer, they never came in so I just use the same load now. They are never max where I need to worry about pressures.
Just a refinement to shorten work since it did not matter enough to get uptight about. Too many years doing things the "right" way and wasting a ton of lead and powder.
The difference between a LP and LP mag does not amount to much except accuracy but a move to a LR primer NEEDS a reduction and work up. That in itself can be dangerous with some powders.
Powder companies and custom makers told me to NOT use a LR primer in the .475 Linebaugh because of pressure issues and I only use the LP mag in it and the .500 JRH.
The .475 is made from 45-70 parent brass with a LR pocket but it should not be used.
Too much primer pressure can move a boolit well into the bore before pressure comes up.

As things are developing, it looks like I am going to have several lubes to choose from in short order here. Thank you for the continued information, and for the explanation on LBT. I spent some time reading there, and it looks like I may be spending more. I will be sure to report on my progress.

[MtGun44]

LBT soft blue is a top lube.

Looks like really good results, well done and good shooting.

Bill

[44man]

The truth of the matter is I am the laziest and cheapest loader and shooter of anyone here! :coffee:
I look for simple and fast results and hate like heck to clean a gun.
Don't do anything with a wedgy in your shorts!
Too much is not important to worry over.

[LittleBill]

LBT soft blue is a top lube.

Looks like really good results, well done and good shooting.

Bill

Thanks and I will check out that LBT soft blue. Sorry I did not respond sooner. The forum software has decided to stop sending me notices if someone responds. :mad:

[Shiloh]

Isn't it great when it all comes together?? I love knowing that as a producer of my own boolits and a reloader, we casters, reloaders, and shooters are more self reliant than many folks. The company isn't bad either. Shooters....the best folks on earth!!

Shiloh

[44man]

Isn't it great when it all comes together?? I love knowing that as a producer of my own boolits and a reloader, we casters, reloaders, and shooters are more self reliant than many folks. The company isn't bad either. Shooters....the best folks on earth!!

Shiloh
I am with you all the way. Rich or poor, we are family.