Wolf attack in Atlantic Mine, Houghton County MI

[Adam10mm]

http://www.mininggazette.com/page/content.detail/id/529687/DNR-confirms-wolf-attack.html

Farmer's 150lb Newfoundland was the fatal victim. DNR issued the farmer a permit to kill any wolves that enter his property.

[MtGun44]

Take more than one wolf to kill a 150 Newf. One would be a fair fight, but two or more
not at all. Sad story, hope he can kill a few of those eating machines.

The people that thought that our ancestors that spent so much time and
effort wiping out these vermin were wrong should apologize for foisting
this mess on us again. Wolves are 24/7 killing machines and that
cannot and will not change. As much as I like dogs, wild dogs and
wolves are a serious problem.

Bill

[Duckiller]

This was also reported on the Michigan Sportsman forum. There are some real weird people that want to hug major predators. Cal and Mt lions and Michigan and wolves. Need to introduce these animals into major population centers and see how much they are loved.

[jcwit]

So is extermination the answer?

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Where I grew up in Riverside Mich there used to be an occassional "drive" through a pine thicket. Any stray dog or whatever that came out of that thicket was put down. Took care of alot of problems and hunting was good.
Mike in Peru

[missionary5155]

So is extermination the answer?
We are the wolves only preditor that I know about. Remove the preditors and the population goes out of control. When the population of any species gets to large it is a plague and either is put in balance or dies from problems within.
Wolves unfortunately are dangerous to the extreme. Let them start to over populate and they will take out humans especially the old and young.
Watching out for cougars in east Illinois is bad enough. No way do I ever want to have to think about a pack of wolves hunting me down. I see one and I will not hesitate to put the 3 S's to practice.
Too extinction... I seriously do not think that will happen today. But when those beasts figure out livestock and urban areas are easy pickings they will advance farther and become a serious threat.
Mike in Peru

[jcwit]

Too extinction... I seriously do not think that will happen today. But when those beasts figure out livestock and urban areas are easy pickings they will advance farther and become a serious threat.
Mike in Peru

Lets hope so, at least that's my opinion. I fail to see the upside of exterminating and one of Gods Creatures.

[historicfirearms]

I lived in Hancock for six years. Atlantic mine is not exactly what I would call a wilderness area. It's rural but lots of people live in the area. Kind of scary that the wolves are getting this close to town.

[jcwit]

Well they have coyotes in down town Chicago.

[Rick Hodges]

Wolves were never endangered...there was and is a healthy population of wolves in North America....the Canadians shoot them on sight and always have. Where man had successfully worked to push them back is where they insisted on reintroducing them...and not just any wolves but the biggest Northern strain...that were NEVER native to where they introduced them.

I don't understand why some seem to think our founding fathers were abject fools....there is a reason they worked so hard to get rid of them. You will notice that the most ardent advocates of protecting and introducing predators are those who don't have to live with them.

[Swamp Man]

The wolf is part of the eco system and they have a place it's all about checks and balances. If they become a threat to livestock or humans they should be put down other then that they should be left alone they serve an important part of nature.

[waksupi]

The longer distance, and the less chance of having them in their yard, the better people like wolves.
Those who have wolves in the yard on the other hand, find them a convenient target, if they care to save the rest of the deer, elk and moose.

[cbrick]

The longer distance, and the less chance of having them in their yard, the better people like wolves.
Those who have wolves in the yard on the other hand, find them a convenient target, if they care to save the rest of the deer, elk and moose.

Very true but to some people the wilderness is the vacant lot next to the 7-11.

Rick

[runfiverun]

are we gonna go through this again.
everybody in the south just say to yourselves we need some wolves.
in fact y'all should go head and start petitioning your fish and game departments and Washington for some.
we can then trade some deer from down there for some wolves from up here.

I think 3-400 deer per wolf sounds bout right.
no we won't trade for pigs.

[Sven]

So is extermination the answer?

Nobody here mentioned extermination that I saw. But a well regulated hunting season may give them back a fear of man (which they truely should have), and won't affect the population near as much as folks living in wolf country would like.

[BruceB]

We lived for many years IN THE BUSH of the Northwest Territories; meaning: MILES from civilization, providing all our own services....power, water, etc etc. Each fall, as soon as the lake ice in front of the house was thick enough, I took a target out and zeroed the .220 Swift at 350 yards. That rifle then spent the winter ready for use on any passing wolf out on the lake.

I've SEEN and WATCHED the wolves pulling down caribou, and I've SEEN them kill far more animals than they needed.

I also killed every damned wolf I could get a sight picture on, and don't regret it a bit.

By co-incidence, I have deep family roots in Houghton County, and one of my uncles worked for the US Gummint on Isle Royale national Park out in Lake Superior....with wolves and moose.

[jcwit]

Nobody here mentioned extermination that I saw. But a well regulated hunting season may give them back a fear of man (which they truely should have), and won't affect the population near as much as folks living in wolf country would like.

How true, but I fielded the question to see what the reaction would be. A controlled/regulated hunting season is a very good answer.

[starmac]

I think you would have about as much chance exterminating them as coyotes, aad we all see how far that has gone.
Wolves have been hunted, trapped, shot on sight and poisoned since day one, and there numbers have never been in trouble.

[Mallard57]

You will notice that the most ardent advocates of protecting and introducing predators are those who don't have to live with them. Ain't that the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Everyone wants to see and hear wolves when they visit on vacation, maybe they can take some home with them.

[deep creek]

I talked to a fish cop about the wolves in our area about a month ago.He said even with the amount of wolves we take in island park north of here theyre still increasing.This year after taking wolve trapping school.We can trap 3 and shoot 2.Im getting tired of just finding a fox or coyote foot in my traps and alot of wolf tracks.You will never find me up there without a rifle or a shovel.For all you wolf lovers ,you dont have a clue.So all your making is noiseIve seen those things kill 8 cow and calf elk in one bunch ,for fun not abite eaten.I wish we could get some sent tothe big cities.Hell one coyote nearly shut down new york.Heres to the wolfs smokem if you gottem:mrgreen:

[MtGun44]

IMO, YES, extermination is the answer, at least in the lower 48 and outside of national
parks. Plenty of wolves in Canada and Alaska. If you want deer, moose and elk to hunt and
to be able to roam the wild country with your women, children and pets fairly safe? Yes. I
have hunted the country around Yellowstone for a week on horseback, in snow much of the
time, where tracks are easy to see. Lots of wolf tracks, a few moose tracks, zero deer
and elk tracks. This was the finest elk hunting country in the area 20 yrs ago and now
there are no elk to be found in that country. The outfitters closed up shop after two
generations of hunting that area, the wolves emptied it of elk. The few that they haven't
killed, they drove into the flatter country, at least on the Idaho side. I wonder how a
barley or wheat farmer likes a herd of elk taking up residence in his fields?

Our forefathers knew what they were doing when they spent a heck of a lot of time and
money wiping out these killers. I am not buying the "mankind can't change things"
story. We can change them for the better.

I agree that the folks that stay far away from where the wolves are will be the
most in favor of them. I hike and hunt that country and the wolves have changed it
a lot from what I knew over the last 40 years that I have been going there. I am
talking about Idaho and Wyoming around the Yellowstone, Tetons and Wind River
areas. I have walked and ridden most of that country and it is different now. I
have heard the sheepherders in the Winds shooting at what sounded like wolves
attacking the flocks, guard dogs barking, snarling fights, yelps and shots in the night
echoing across the canyon. My bet is there is some SSS going on there.

IMO, reintroduction was a cancer implanted intentionally into beautiful country.

Bill

[Mk42gunner]

You know, when this whole reintroduce wolves thing started I thought "How stupid are people? Our predecessors killed them out for a reason."

That reason being so they could raise stock and actually have some to market.

The fact is wolves will never be trapped/ shot out again, because the tree/ wolf huggers will prevent poisons from being used.

Too many people think meat comes from the grocery stores wrapped in plastic, just down the aisle from the plastic milk jugs.

Robert

[Swamp Man]

Guys I live in Fl but no where near the cities I'm in the middle of no where 22 miles from the nearest town. We have just about ever type of wildlife you could think of coyotes,pigs,deer,bobcats,black bears,gators in the ponds/lakes and two panthers that I know of in the area. They all have a place in nature some people here think we should kill all the panthers,gators and coyotes but if they did we would be over ran by other wildlife. A true sportsman should respect all wildlife and learn to live with them and kill only the ones that are threat or your going to eat.

[Adam10mm]

So is extermination the answer?
It's "an" answer, but I'm not sure if it's "the" answer.

We are the wolves only preditor that I know about. Remove the preditors and the population goes out of control. When the population of any species gets to large it is a plague and either is put in balance or dies from problems within.
Prior to wolves being reintroduced to the UP, the coyote population exploded. All prey animals took a population hit. Now that hunters and trappers started really hitting them hard, deer and bird numbers are on the rise. Good thing about wolves is they keep the coyote and fox population down, but humans can also do a pretty darn good job.


I lived in Hancock for six years. Atlantic mine is not exactly what I would call a wilderness area. It's rural but lots of people live in the area. Kind of scary that the wolves are getting this close to town.
Nice. I'm in Laurium. My supervisor at work lives out on Bootjack road (Lake Linden). She's got a couple packs of wolves down there. Lot of farms down by Trap Rock Valley too that have had livestock killed by wolves. The old Hyrkas elk farm got shut down because wolves were moving in and at the time he couldn't legally do anything to protect his herd.


Wolves were never endangered...there was and is a healthy population of wolves in North America....the Canadians shoot them on sight and always have. Where man had successfully worked to push them back is where they insisted on reintroducing them...and not just any wolves but the biggest Northern strain...that were NEVER native to where they introduced them.
Found it morbidly hilarious that the USFWS had gunmen armed to protect the wolves from people shooting them upon their reintroduction. Willing to kill a human to protect an animal. Sheesh.


I don't understand why some seem to think our founding fathers were abject fools....there is a reason they worked so hard to get rid of them. You will notice that the most ardent advocates of protecting and introducing predators are those who don't have to live with them.
Yup, we got rid of them in this area for a reason. Now they're back and we have all sorts of problems.

The wolf is part of the eco system and they have a place it's all about checks and balances. If they become a threat to livestock or humans they should be put down other then that they should be left alone they serve an important part of nature.
OK, so what role do they serve that coyote doesn't?

How true, but I fielded the question to see what the reaction would be. A controlled/regulated hunting season is a very good answer.
Currently there is a bill here that would stop the DNR from creating a hunting season for them.

[Adam10mm]

Guys I live in Fl but no where near the cities I'm in the middle of no where 22 miles from the nearest town. We have just about ever type of wildlife you could think of coyotes,pigs,deer,bobcats,black bears,gators in the ponds/lakes and two panthers that I know of in the area. They all have a place in nature some people here think we should kill all the panthers,gators and coyotes but if they did we would be over ran by other wildlife. A true sportsman should respect all wildlife and learn to live with them and kill only the ones that are threat or your going to eat.
I'm not a sportsman, I'm an outdoorsman. Generally I'm a conservationist as well, but when there is a serious threat to humans or their livelihood at stake, humans above all else. Michigan was wolf free and we got along great. Coyote and fox populations rose, but hunters and trappers started managing them. Then the DNR thought it was a neat idea to get wolves back in the state. Now the coyote and fox populations are falling and wolf problems with pets, livestock, and humans are increasing. What's the common theme there? Wolves. Get the wolves the hell out of MI, let the hunters and trappers deal with the coyotes and fox like we have been for decades. Then again, DNR = Do Nothing Right. No wonder.

[starmac]

Wolves were never reintroduced for any check and balance reasons. They were not reintroduced to return land to what it once was. The people behind this could care less if there is a wild wolf,deer, elk moose or rabbit in the whole USA. wolves were reintroduced with a long term goal of reducing game animals to the point that there is not enough left to hunt, so that eventually there will not be enough people to fight any kind of gun control laws at all. So far the wolves are doing exactly as planned, probably even ahead of schedule.
Their numbers will never be brought back to where they need to be until they run out of anything to eat, we shoot them on sight trap them for hides, hunt them out of airplanes just to keep the numbers somewhat workable, no way they will ever be hunted with the passion in the lower 48 that they are here. I am afraid eventually they will be like the coyote and be downtown chicago at some point in the future.

[Adam10mm]

Exactly. Succinctly stated.

[Swamp Man]

I can agree to disagree. When I moved to my farm we had problems with some of the coyote packs and pigs I stopped that by installing a ten foot high heavy steel panel fencing around the front 20 ac without killing any of them but a few pigs for the table. I put up 9 foot high chain link fence around the tree farm in the back and haven't had any problems. However I understand not everyone can put fencing up on a large scale as I did. However I must say I did almost mess my pants before we got the fence done when I opened my front door one morning and there was a female black bear and her cub 3 or so feet from my door.

[starmac]

Well what are you disagreeing with? I am not sure what a fence has to do with the wolf problem in this country.

[Lloyd Smale]

Adam they must be finally looking at the problem. I know two people here in munising that lost dogs last year to them and the dnr about said tuff SH^^ to the owners. One actually watched in horor as the wolf killed and drug it away.

[randyrat]

Read #26 there may be something to this...... And to add to this I'm thinking possibly Ins Co.s may have a hand in it also to reduce deer car collisions (Wolves eat deer by the herds).

Next year early snow I need to take some comparison pictures of Wolf tracks with measurements.. I run into tracks in the early snow/winter season ( tracks are easier to identify in only a few inches of snow as deep snow) You would not believe how big and long these animal eating machines are.

I don't recall the measurement , but i measured 4 tracks of one animal back to front, of 2 sets, each were amazingly long animals and they were not running. It will make your hair stand up and make you feel insignificant.

I get a warm fuzzy feeling back in me when I reach down and feel that my side arm is still holstered.

[popper]

no we won't trade for pigs Will you trade for fire ants? ratio - boxcar load/wolf? We could use more exotics for canned hunts.

[Adam10mm]

Adam they must be finally looking at the problem. I know two people here in munising that lost dogs last year to them and the dnr about said tuff SH^^ to the owners. One actually watched in horor as the wolf killed and drug it away.
Yeah, I don't know enough about the local DNR guys to tell if they are finally being pushed or if this biologist is on our side of the issue.

[M-Tecs]

I can agree to disagree. When I moved to my farm we had problems with some of the coyote packs and pigs I stopped that by installing a ten foot high heavy steel panel fencing around the front 20 ac without killing any of them but a few pigs for the table. I put up 9 foot high chain link fence around the tree farm in the back and haven't had any problems. However I understand not everyone can put fencing up on a large scale as I did.

To me that reply is the epitome of hypocrisy. You fenced them out so now the coyotes and pigs are your neighbors problem. Your fix was to move them out of your back yard into someone else’s without dealing with the damage they do. If all the neighbors do the same the pigs and coyotes will starve. Why not just skip the fence and just shoot them?

Wolves are primarily a problem for sheep and beef ranchers. Most of the ranches start at 2,000 acres and go up to 20,000 or 30,000 acres so fencing is not a realistic option.

The secondary problem with wolves is the economic impact to the areas that greatly benefit from sport hunting of deer, elk and moose. Wolves cost jobs. For me jobs, livestock, pet and human safety wins every time.

If they are such a good balance of nature why don’t you fence them in your 20 acres and not out?

[waksupi]

If there isn't a problem with wolves, why is Montana FWP wanting a 6+ month hunting season, with 5 wolves each as a limit? In a couple more years, it will officially be shoot on sight.

[Mallard57]

Guys I live in Fl but no where near the cities I'm in the middle of no where 22 miles from the nearest town. We have just about ever type of wildlife you could think of coyotes,pigs,deer,bobcats,black bears,gators in the ponds/lakes and two panthers that I know of in the area. They all have a place in nature some people here think we should kill all the panthers,gators and coyotes but if they did we would be over ran by other wildlife. A true sportsman should respect all wildlife and learn to live with them and kill only the ones that are threat or your going to eat.
We got your panthers and your coyotes. a lot more of each in fact and they cause problems but they are manageable. Tell you what we'll trade you your problem gators for our problem wolves. I think you'll need a more substantial fence.

[dualsport]

Re. above #20, if I was you I'd carry a little more fire power on those outings. I'm thinking one of those .22 mag. semi autos with a 30 rd. magazine. I think I remember seeing something like that anyway, maybe Keltec? Hornady makes some wicked .22 mag ammo. About like this new fancy 5.7 thing they came up with. I admire your grit, I'm a blunt instrument fan myself, but, 10-12 against one?

[flounderman]

We have wolves in the south. They reintroduced the red wolf here, or something that is supposed to be a red wolf. They cross with coyotes and with dogs. Give it a few years and there won't be any of them that are not mixed. Deer populations are down, they are coming into peoples yards, hunting. They turned them out on some government land, but never taught them to read, so they didn't know when they left the reservation, just knew that it was easier pickings around where there were more people. They were letting hunters hunt coyotes at night but some wolves turned up dead and that ended that. Nobody that has to live where they put them, wanted them and now more people don't want them. No purpose whatsoever for them, here

[montana_charlie]

So is extermination the answer?
It would be, but I think we'll have to settle for 'as close as we can get ... again'.


I fail to see the upside of exterminating and one of Gods Creatures.
Uhh ... right. I bet if we talked about it long enough (and we're not going to) we could find instances where you would sing a different tune.



I fielded the question to see what the reaction would be. A controlled/regulated hunting season is a very good answer.
We have the coyote listed as a varmit in Montana. It's legal to shoot every one that you see.
Some are rather 'laid back' about eliminating coyotes while some go out of their way to get as many as possible.

Still, with no "controlled/regulated hunting season" ... just a shoot 'em when you see 'em program ... coyotes are uncomfortably numerous, at times.

If (in my neighborhood) they were wolves instead of coyotes, the term would not be 'uncomfortable' ... and none of us would be 'laid back' about them.

CM

[MtGun44]

Coyotes are small enough to only rarely be a real danger to people. Wolves are
a whole different deal. Coyotes cannot take down an elk, and I don't think they
can take on a deer. Huge difference between the two animals, due to pack
behavior versus solo or double team behavior and sheer size.

I had a hunting buddy attacked by 6 feral dogs on her own property in MO, and
she was very fortunate that on that particular day she had a 10mm 1911 in her
hand. She is very proficient, and when they fanned out to 180 degrees and came
straight in on her, she shot at the end dogs, and apparently wounded one and did
manage to scare the rest away. With a bolt rifle, I believe she would have been
seriously injured or killed. City folks dumping dogs in the country create makeshift
wanna-be wolf packs and they are scary enough, thank you.

I was in a tree stand about 250 yds away when this went down and she was still
shaking like a leaf when I got to her, thinking I was going to be gutting her
deer. Normally, when she shoots there is meat on the ground. One of the dogs
ran by my stand with a bloody belly, but still making time.

Six 125 lb wolves would be beyond believe scary, and I am pretty darned
good with a handgun. I would not want to be in that position.

At some point, folks are going to get sick of large predators chewing on their
livestock, big game animals, pets, womenfolk and kids. Until that, we'll have
people defending these large predators running lose and unafraid of humans.

Bill

[M-Tecs]

At some point, folks are going to get sick of large predators chewing on their
livestock, pets, womenfolk and kids. Until that, we'll have people defending
these large predators running lose and unafraid of humans.

Bill

Bill you are wrong about that. See below

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/10/29/canada.singer.killed/


In a written statement, Emily Mitchell described her daughter as "a seasoned naturalist and well versed in wilderness camping. She loved the woods and had a deep affinity for their beauty and serenity. Tragically it was her time to be taken from us so soon.

"We take a calculated risk when spending time in nature's fold -- it's the wildlife's terrain," Emily Mitchell's statement continued. "When the decision had been made to kill the pack of coyotes, I clearly heard Taylor's voice say, 'please don't, this is their space.' She wouldn't have wanted their demise, especially as a result of her own. She was passionate about animals, was an environmentalist, and was also planning to volunteer at the Toronto Wildlife Centre in the coming months."

[jcwit]

Uhh ... right. I bet if we talked about it long enough (and we're not going to) we could find instances where you would sing a different tune.
CM

OK Chuck, whip one on me. Only thing I can think of offhand is the small pox virus, and actually we're holding on to that in a lab in Russia I believe.

[TJF1]

well they have coyotes in down town chicago.

that is not the only thing that is in downtown
chicago lol terry

[GaryN]

If reintroducing wolves is such a great idea why don't we reintroduce grizzly bears while we are at it. I think we should put a bunch of them right down on the border of the city of Los Angeles. Makes about as much sense. And as far as being one of God's creatures, aren't viruses also God's creatures.

[cbrick]

"When the decision had been made to kill the pack of coyotes, I clearly heard Taylor's voice say, 'please don't, this is their space."

One of the most ridiculous lines to come out of the liberals. Their space my hieny, as if we have no right to be there and if we invade their space we have no right to defend ourselves. Pure liberal BS!

Rick

[jcwit]

I could mention termites, but I already said we won't be playing that game.
But, there's a little matter of form I would like to mention.

On this forum, I am known as montana_charlie, Charlie, or CM.
There are people in this world who call me Chuck, but you don't qualify for that group.

Address me appropriately, Nitwit, or stop addressing me altogether.

CM

Not sure is you ever have or not and not going to do a big search about it, but it has happened to me on this forum chuckie. And your reference to me as nitwit will continue to allow me to address you in any manner I wish to. See what it got you chuck!

Even termites have their place and use.

Never knew anyone who could get so bent out of shape because someone used a common nickname that wasn't even a derogatory one. You need to toughen up.

[jcwit]

If reintroducing wolves is such a great idea why don't we reintroduce grizzly bears while we are at it. I think we should put a bunch of them right down on the border of the city of Los Angeles. Makes about as much sense. And as far as being one of God's creatures, aren't viruses also God's creatures.

Did I not mention Small Pox, which is a virus.

[Duckiller]

Our small pox virus is kept at Ft. Detrick Maryland. You don't think we are going to let Russia be the only nation to have small pox do you. We have all sorts of interesting bug a virus at Ft. Detrick. Coyotes have killed children in greater Los Angeles. Train construction in my back yard has stirred up the local coyote population. It seems our local animal control officiers exist only to collect dog licience fees. Fish and Game, now Wildlife, didn't want anything to do with urban coyotes. A volunteer did mention that a portable airhorn helps keep coyotes away from his place in the desert. Once thes animals develop[ rabies and start biteing people we will see if I politicans are going to still say they are part of nature.

[Love Life]

Well...this one started off pretty good.

No wolves in Nevada yet. At least none that I know of.

[jcwit]

Our small pox virus is kept at Ft. Detrick Maryland. You don't think we are going to let Russia be the only nation to have small pox do you. We have all sorts of interesting bug a virus at Ft. Detrick.

Ya I was sure we also had the killer viruses here, just couldn't remember from my years at the Pentagon.

[Duckiller]

Our small pox virus is kept at Ft. Detrick Maryland. You don't think we are going to let Russia be the only nation to have small pox do you. We have all sorts of interesting bug a virus at Ft. Detrick. Coyotes have killed children in greater Los Angeles. Train construction in my back yard has stirred up the local coyote population. It seems our local animal control officiers exist only to collect dog licience fees. Fish and Game, now Wildlife, didn't want anything to do with urban coyotes. A volunteer did mention that a portable airhorn helps keep coyotes away from his place in the desert. Once thes animals develop[ rabies and start biteing people we will see if I politicans are going to still say they are part of nature.

[AkMike]

IMO, YES, extermination is the answer, at least in the lower 48 and outside of national parks. Bill

Bill ,
It's seldom that I disagree with anything you say BUT,,, You need to add a 1 to the above figure to make this a true statement. They're playing heII with the moose calves and `boo up here too.

[M-Tecs]

After much contemplation I have decided my view is all wrong. I will side with Emily Mitchell’s (the mother of the girl killed) view that this is their space. I am all for the reintroduction of wolves, brown bears and mountain lion to all major liberal cities. If the liberals like Emily Mitchell’s think it’s OK for the animals to kill their kids who am I to say that’s wrong???? http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/10/29/canada.singer.killed/

If the liberals want to feed them I have no problem letting them feed them their kids or themselves.

On a serious note Emily Mitchell’s view is an excellent example that liberalism is a form of mental illness. How could a mother that just had her daughter killed by a pack of coyotes sympathize with the coyotes nor not understand that if they did it once they will do it again???????

[Case Stuffer]

You know some are so liberal that they believe itis fine for our goverment to let terrorits in the makng to come here and even provide them with financial aid.

We have coyotes and they attack people,dog,cats,goats,chickens as well as quail,turkey . Never talked to a hunter that did not hate them.

Like others have posted Game and Fish / WildlifeManaement will not do anything to control them. I am never unarmed.

[Adam10mm]

Coyotes cannot take down an elk, and I don't think they
can take on a deer.
Oh heck yes coyotes can take down a deer. They do all the time down on my inlaws' farm and surrounding area.

[starmac]

Coyotes would have trouble taking down a full grown deer, bbbbut they will take does while they are giving birth, fawns and any deer that is somehow compromised.
Not just deer, I have seen many full grown cows that were partially eaten alive while they were calving or stuck in a bog, much less calves.

[Adam10mm]

Coyotes would have trouble taking down a full grown deer,
Beg to differ, Sir.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KhlZZ0KZL8

[starmac]

If that buck was healthy, that would be a rare case. Lots of hunters used to run deer with dogs, that were way meaner than coyotes, and the deer would easily and effortlessy run off and leave them. Many would run for a while then sort of wait for the dogs to close in then leave them again, kind of like they were playing with them.
I personally only knew of once that a dog actually got hold of a deer, but it probably happened occasionally.

[Adam10mm]

It may perhaps be rare, but it still does happen. I respect even rare occurrences of events.

[GabbyM]

Farm outside town keeps a donkey on there pasture to chase coyotes off the heard animals. Story I hear is donkeys severely dislike coyotes and will run them down and kill them. Yotes could out run a donkey I’d imagine but they’d not have time to stop for lunch.

Don’t know if it’s a jack or Jennie. If it’s a jack it’s probably impress into service to make mules.

[cbrick]

On a serious note Emily Mitchell’s view is an excellent example that liberalism is a form of mental illness. How could a mother that just had her daughter killed by a pack of coyotes sympathize with the coyotes nor not understand that if they did it once they will do it again???????

That's what liberalism is, drink the cool aid and think, believe and say exactly as your told to. If the mother could have an original thought of her own she wouldn't be a liberal.

Yotes hunt in packs and can be extremely dangerous. If one is hunting alone it's probably too sick to keep up with the pack.

Rick

[Lloyd Smale]

Ill go two ways with you swampman. First the wolves are a threat. When they start hauling dogs out of peoples yards how long do you think it will take before is a young child. Second is that they were exterminated here about 75 years ago. They were exterminated for a reason and that reason still exists. We had no problem with other species when they were exterminated unless you call having more game animals a problem. The problem here is in the UP we live in a very rural area that some people down state think is there own personal park. There the same people that want all deer hunting stopped. They live in there 10th story appartment and there only clue as to what really constitudes nature is maybe a one week a year trip to the up. These are the yuppies that vote stupid legistlation in. Even in michigan they outnumber us sportsmen probably two to one. They grow up go to college and get an office job with the dnr and end up being in charge. I know we could never afford to be our own state but id sure like to see it. Id even let the top 1/3 of lower michigan come along with us.
Guys I live in Fl but no where near the cities I'm in the middle of no where 22 miles from the nearest town. We have just about ever type of wildlife you could think of coyotes,pigs,deer,bobcats,black bears,gators in the ponds/lakes and two panthers that I know of in the area. They all have a place in nature some people here think we should kill all the panthers,gators and coyotes but if they did we would be over ran by other wildlife. A true sportsman should respect all wildlife and learn to live with them and kill only the ones that are threat or your going to eat.

[montana_charlie]

Seems pretty clear that those of us who think of ourselves as 'outdoorsmen' or 'sportsmen' look at the reintroduction of wolves as a dimwitted idea, and that those who did it (as well as the half-wits who support them) have done the whole nation a disservice by reversing a long, expensive, and successful effort undertaken by generations of rural Americans.

Perhaps we can manage to keep them beaten back to some extent ... until the thought processes of the nation cycle back to the brand of logic that made us a leader in the world.

As for any who would object to the suppression, or outright elimination, of wolves within the lower 48 based on their being "God's creatures", I guess Genesis 1:26 pretty well explains God's rules on that.
Yeah, He made 'em, but we get to manage 'em.

CM

[MtGun44]

Never saw even two coyotes together in the wild. If they are starting to pack up,
that is a major behavioral change and NOT good news. One coyote is not too
serious a threat to an adult human, or to deer which can normally outrun
them, but a pack --- you had better be armed and do not screw up.

Never heard of them taking on deer before, either. Learn something every day
if you pay attention. It still seems like the deer, if healthy, could outdistance
a coyote easily.

I think grizz in LA and San Fran, downtown, would be a good idea. They have the
grizz on the state flag, after all. And some of the dingbats would probably be
FOR it.

And I stand corrected on "lower 48", sounds like there is even some sentiment
in AK in favor of extermination.

Bill

[9w1911]

wild dogs and
wolves are a serious problem. ------------LOL No

Meth is a serious problem, alcohol abuse is a serious problem , and,,,,,,,,,humans are a problem. Wolves, you are correct do not change for 1000s of years and they sure dont build subdivisions.

[Smoke4320]

So is extermination the answer?

the libs or the wolves?

[M-Tecs]

At one time I believed the “experts” that coyotes didn’t take healthy full sized deer and antelope. They are wrong!!!!!! Coyotes are very intelligent and adaptable.

Antelope don’t deal well with barb wire fences. They are easily capable of jumping them but they prefer to crawl under the fence. When pushed hard some will not jump. Coyotes use this to their advantage. Some have learned that if they get antelope into a quarter (160 acres) they will run it in circles using relays of coyotes. I first observed this in 1978 and again in the early 90’s. I both cases three or four coyotes killed a mature antelope bucks. In about 2005 I saw it again but I had a rifle and two coyotes turned into crow food.

Deer do not fare any better. In the mid 80 I was late season bow hunting. I was in the tree stand watching a nice 4 x 4 buck feeding towards me. Five coyotes took chase. I got out of the tree stand and got my 243 out of the truck. We had just got fresh snow so tracking was easy. I came over a ridge and they had the buck down but not dead. I got three out of the five and then I killed the buck to put it out of its misery.

This is the only time I have seen coyotes kill a mature deer in the wild. However, I work in an urban area the is next to a natural area. The area I am in has a chain link security fence. During the winter I will see coyotes push deer into a corner of this fence. In the past seven years I have seen yearlings, mature does and bucks killed by coyotes using the fence as trap.

The “experts” also say that wolves don’t take health elk. Again BS. Just look at all the areas that had very health elk herds until the wolf was reintroduced. Now elk are non-existent. Only thing that has changed was the introduction of wolves.

[M-Tecs]

So is extermination the answer?


the libs or the wolves?

Yes and Yes.

[montana_charlie]

Never saw even two coyotes together in the wild. If they are starting to pack up,
that is a major behavioral change and NOT good news.
Where are you ... Overland Park, Mission?
How much time do you spend where coyotes run wild?
On any evening, standing in my back yard, you can easily tell that there are more than two out there in the coulee.
You might only see them in 'packs' when the sire and dam are teaching the pups to hunt, but seven coyotes in a group are 'worth watching' when you have newborn calves around. A good momma cow can keep a couple away pretty well, but one or two 'extras' can wear her down.

One coyote is not too serious a threat to an adult human, or to deer which can normally outrun
them, but a pack --- you had better be armed and do not screw up.
I don't know the source of your knowledge/experience, but I would have no fear of personal injury from any group (pack) of coyotes ... even if unarmed. They (healthy ones) just aren't that 'brave'.

Wolves are an entirely different story ...

CM

[cbrick]

wild dogs and
wolves are a serious problem. ------------LOL No

You forgot to add . . . As long as they aren't in 9w1911's yard, someone else's yard? Hey, no problem huh?.

Rick

[M-Tecs]

Never saw even two coyotes together in the wild. If they are starting to pack up, that is a major behavioral change and NOT good news.

Coyote packs are not a behavioral change. Spring you normally see male and a female. Summer I mostly see singles during the day and hear and see packs at night. During the fall and winter I see more packs than singles or pairs. I have been watching and hunting coyotes since the late 60’s and I have not seen and behavioral changes other than becoming more urbanized.

I started night hunting in the mid-90s. Mostly when they come in its packs of 3 to 7. Ever been out in the prairie at night and listen to the coyote packs howling? I love going to sleep with coyotes howling in the distance.


It still seems like the deer, if healthy, could outdistance a coyote easily.

Nope.

[cbrick]

I think when ya see lone coyotes in the day time they are mostly scavenging, hunting is a different thing.

Rick

[Rick Hodges]

I was an avid caller and hunter of Coyotes in Michigan. There was an open house with the DNR biologists and foresters held at the Pigeon River Forest headquarters building. I was retired and had nothing better to do so I attended. After wandering around for some time I approached one of the DNR people and asked where the heaviest concentration of coyotes were in the watershed. The guy looked relieved, broke out in a broad grin and introduced me to the game biologist. It seems that they heard there was going to be a tree hugger presence at the meeting to protest some forestry activity....they had no idea who I was and feared I was there to raise hell.

To make a long story short the game biologist told me to look for deer...particularly the yarding areas...and asked that I "kill every "freaking" one of those murdering coyotes" that I saw (I cleaned up the language). He says that they get in a yarding area and run the deer to exhaustion. They only kill a few at a time outright....but cause the loss of fawns in the spring due to the stress and mortality put on the whole herd. The running costs a lot of energy that they can't spare and increases winter kill exponentially.

Yes coyotes kill deer, they run large here in Michigan...I have shot them over 50 lbs. I have hunted and killed coyotes in Montana...an adult usually runs about 4' long from the tip of the nose to tip of tail. It is common for them to run over 5' here.

Coyotes are bad enough...wolves are much much worse. Larger, just as smart, routinely run in packs and are primo killing machines. To make matters worse they have no fear of humans. They have treed DNR foresters who are now carrying firearms while woods walking. I do too.

Lloyd I hope you still let this southern Michigan boy up in the UP if you split. I fear it will do you no good though. You have the college town...Marquette.....biggest city in the UP...and just as liberal as Ann Arbor.

[M-Tecs]

but I would have no fear of personal injury from any group (pack) of coyotes ... even if unarmed. They (healthy ones) just aren't that 'brave'. CM

In the wild I agree with you 100%. Since I have been a little kid I have been camping on the prairie falling asleep to the coyote songs. Sometimes I would just sleep under the stars with no tent. My only real concern was mosquitos. I have never heard of a wild coyote bothering a human.

The urbanized coyotes are losing their fear of humans and are starting to be a problem. I know they have killed one adult women in Canada and several infants in California and reports of coyotes biting humans is becoming fairly common.

[Adam10mm]

Lloyd I hope you still let this southern Michigan boy up in the UP if you split. I fear it will do you no good though. You have the college town...Marquette.....biggest city in the UP...and just as liberal as Ann Arbor.
Yeah, but we also have Houghton with the live firearms range on campus at Michigan Tech. :)

[BRobertson]

I have never talked with anybody in Alaska who wanted to see the wolves completely eliminated. (Been here 44 years)
What "we" (meaning the average outdoors, hunting, real Alaskan) want is for the Feds, and all the out of State anti-hunting
Gorpeaters to leave us the heck alone and stay out of our business!!!!!!!!!!!
You can include the new arrivals to Anchorage in the above!! Most are part of the Gorpeating, anti idiots!!

I love seeing wolves, they are an amazing animal!! However they need to be hunted, to keep them respectful!!

I have tried for years to get one with my .44, some day!!

Bob

[deep creek]

I have trapped up to 4 coyotes in gang sets when sign tells me that a pack is around .These are mostly family groups in early fall.I have snared several adults later in the season on trails.I have caught alpha pairs that that weigh up to 55lbs.Ive seen them eat cow calves as thier born, they run in packs,they kill deer.I dont think theres anything they wont try to eat.If you dont make your set right theyll **** on your trap.But these are american coyotes not canadian grey wolves

[GabbyM]

Here in Illinois coyote and wild dogs run deer in freezing weather. Usually all night long in relay. Turning the prey back into the awaiting group of yotes. Then they just sit back for a few days while pneumonia takes down the deer. lungs damaged by the freezing air.

I've counted nine coyotes in a single pack. Possibly these were a mixed breed coyote wild dog. One was all black so that is suspect. Over a half mile out looking through a 4x scope.

[jcwit]

I have never talked with anybody in Alaska who wanted to see the wolves completely eliminated. (Been here 44 years)
What "we" (meaning the average outdoors, hunting, real Alaskan) want is for the Feds, and all the out of State anti-hunting
Gorpeaters to leave us the heck alone and stay out of our business!!!!!!!!!!!
You can include the new arrivals to Anchorage in the above!! Most are part of the Gorpeating, anti idiots!!

I love seeing wolves, they are an amazing animal!! However they need to be hunted, to keep them respectful!!

I have tried for years to get one with my .44, some day!!

Bob

Absolutly, very correct & well put.

[GaryN]

Here in Utah the DNR has started a campaign against coyotes. They are trying to increase deer herd numbers. They have done studies and found that coyotes kill a lot of fawns. There is even a place on the license app. to donate for coyote control. Wolves would be many times worse.

[TXGunNut]

It's quite likely that before European settlers began to populate North America predators and prey kept each other in balance. Since we depend on livestock and agriculture for food and a few of us enjoy hunting it is our responsibility to manage predators. Re-introducing predators will only work if we somehow manage to remove ourselves from the situation. We caused the problem, we must be part of the solution. Previous generations understood this and aggressively managed predators. If we are interested in the same type of critters as these predators are interested in we need to eliminate the competition, we simply can't protect against them or out-hunt them.
If a protected population of wolves was the answer, it must have been an incredibly stupid question.

[waksupi]

We're short 60 million buffalo, and 25 million elk that were around before the Euros showed up. That was a pretty good food source.

[jmort]

There are a whole lot more deer and pigs now, as opposed to pre-Columbian America, but not enough to offset the buffalo.

[Lloyd Smale]

rick im sure theres a few of you good ones down below the bridge but your more of the exception then the rule. As to marquette. Ive lived near there all my life and yes theres a few liberals at the college. I think any college tends to go that way. But id bet you a dime to a dollar if you looked in the parking lot of Northern Michigan university in marquette or mich tech. in houghton youd see more pickups per student then anywhere else in the country. Nothern Mich. even more the tech is a local college where id bet 90 percent of the students are from right here in the UP. But sad to say that the democrats outweight the republicans up here. Probably mostly due to the fact that most good jobs are union jobs and many still have blinders on and think that the democrats protect those union jobs and jobs up here, at least good ones, are very hard to come by. I do think things are slowly changing though. People here are very pro gun and kind of independent and have seen in the last couple years finally that the democrats have a agenda that they just dont agree with and that basicaly neither party do much to help unions anymore anyway. Bottom line is im a realist and know that the UP could never make it on its own. The coyotes would probably take over in two years by eating all the starving people.
I was an avid caller and hunter of Coyotes in Michigan. There was an open house with the DNR biologists and foresters held at the Pigeon River Forest headquarters building. I was retired and had nothing better to do so I attended. After wandering around for some time I approached one of the DNR people and asked where the heaviest concentration of coyotes were in the watershed. The guy looked relieved, broke out in a broad grin and introduced me to the game biologist. It seems that they heard there was going to be a tree hugger presence at the meeting to protest some forestry activity....they had no idea who I was and feared I was there to raise hell.

To make a long story short the game biologist told me to look for deer...particularly the yarding areas...and asked that I "kill every "freaking" one of those murdering coyotes" that I saw (I cleaned up the language). He says that they get in a yarding area and run the deer to exhaustion. They only kill a few at a time outright....but cause the loss of fawns in the spring due to the stress and mortality put on the whole herd. The running costs a lot of energy that they can't spare and increases winter kill exponentially.

Yes coyotes kill deer, they run large here in Michigan...I have shot them over 50 lbs. I have hunted and killed coyotes in Montana...an adult usually runs about 4' long from the tip of the nose to tip of tail. It is common for them to run over 5' here.

Coyotes are bad enough...wolves are much much worse. Larger, just as smart, routinely run in packs and are primo killing machines. To make matters worse they have no fear of humans. They have treed DNR foresters who are now carrying firearms while woods walking. I do too.

Lloyd I hope you still let this southern Michigan boy up in the UP if you split. I fear it will do you no good though. You have the college town...Marquette.....biggest city in the UP...and just as liberal as Ann Arbor.

[MtGun44]

+1 on TxGunNut.

Well said, sir.

Waksupai makes a key point, also. If you have a whole lot of bison to feed wolves, it is a lot different
than very limited mountain land for elk, as it is now. Farmers and ranchers do not need elk down in
their land, which is why we find elk in the high country nowdays. Wolves have killed and run out
the elk in the Teton-Yellowstone Nat Forest areas, wonder if anybody on here is a farmer in the
SE Idaho area that some of those elk have been moved to? Can't imagine a herd of elk does
anything good to a barley or wheat field.

Bill

[GabbyM]

Yes and while I've never seen it. My bet is bison bulls would occasionally take out a wolf or two with hooves and horn. Creating a population balance.

[Bad Water Bill]

One or 2 wolves lost will only teach the rest of the pack what NOT to do.

Wolves are prolific breeders.

It was about 30 years ago that the tree huggers convinced the park service that wolves had a RIGHT to be in Yellowstone.

Today they have been reported in areas as far EAST as Wi,Il,Mi and Mn. The ONLY thing keeping them from expanding further WEST is the Pacific Ocean.

Some reports say the ELK population has virtually vanished from many areas and the wolves are now turning to cattle and sheep for their lunch.

One place reported 200 sheep KILLED in 1 night by ONE wolf.

There are many youtubes documenting the devastation caused by the wolves

Coming soon to your neighborhood A HUNGRY WOLF :evil:

[Love Life]

Our game warden said that wolves do not live in Nevada. If we were to see what we thought was a wolf, then we are to kill it on the spot as it is more than likely a large coyote. This was all said with a twinkle in his eye.

[jcwit]

While I believe the wolf must be kept in control, I find it odd that one of the most hated creatures in North America and Europe to for that matter, gave us Mans Best Friend!

Just a thought!

[Rick N Bama]

We have wolves in the south. They reintroduced the red wolf here, or something that is supposed to be a red wolf.

I see that you are in NC. Several years ago I saw what I thought to be a Red Wolf in Cades Cove in the TN side of the Smokie Mountains NP.

Rick

[perotter]

It was about 30 years ago that the tree huggers convinced the park service that wolves had a RIGHT to be in Yellowstone.

Today they have been reported in areas as far EAST as Wi,Il,Mi and Mn.



Just to keep things accurate, MN always did have a native wolf population. After the Federal gov ban hunting them in Minnesota that population grew large enough for them to move out of state.

[deep creek]

The local hound hunters have been having a hard time getting mans best friend and the wolves to sniff and wag seems the wolves think its lunch time.Dont get me wrong, i like wolves .I like them in my sights, i like them in my traps,ya see i just plain like the wolf!!:bigsmyl2:

[GabbyM]

How can you ban hunting wolves. Unless you’re controlling robots.
Since the early seventies we’ve shot anything coyote and larger size dog like without a color on it. Florescent orange dog colors were popular for a while. For years now it’s very rare to see a domestic dog very far from it’s house. Coyotes kill any dogs hat roam very far from home.

Not even a DNA test will prove in court you have shot a wolf. They are all just wild dogs.
Never let the ******** record you referring to it as a wolf. Of course I don’t know all laws in all states. But it would work here. In my county worst case scenario would be to demand a jury trial. They’d never find twelve bunny huggers to plant on a jury then the DA would be guaranteed to loose the next election.

Last year we had Mountain Lion tracks down the drainage ditch one hundred feet from the house. Amish took care of that quietly. Story was it was an escaped captive animal.
Escaped after it’s owners took bankruptcy then forgot to close the cage door.

[Bad Water Bill]

Some times you just got to tip your hat to those quiet folks driving their buggies.