Paypal - I am chewing nails

[Phoenix]

And no not the kind on the end of my fingers or toes...

Yesterday, my paypal account was limited for their total misinterpretation of someone elses note.

We all know that selling ammunition is against paypal policy. We also know that selling boolits/bullets are against their policy. Selling brass however is NOT against their policy. Neither is selling lead.

I got an email that my account had been limited and gave me a list of transactions. all of them were about lead sales. Some people put the words lead and boolits in the same notes field. They requested clarification. So I sent them info about what I sold and even sent pictures. A few hours later they sent another email and said thanks for the additional info, but we cannot take your account off limitation because you are in violation of the terms for selling blank ammunition.

I have never sold any live ammunition in my life. not even gave any away to friends. They Decided I was guilty of this infraction based solely on the words 223 blanks being in the notes. Now I dont really care what someone puts in the notes the correct thing to do is ask for clarification and THEN make a determination, Not just declare guilt based on something they have no control over.

The worst part is I am guilty and now I must make ammends to them to get my account back under control. BS. I will not admit guilt for something that is not a violation, but is a complete misinterpretation of someone elses notes. They want an affidavit that I understand and will not do it again. This is not unlike pleading guilty for a crime you didn't commit so you can get a slap on the wrist.

Are these people not regulated at all by the over-regulated state of california? I don't think any bank could get away with this. Obviously they are not classified as a financial institution, But they probably should be. When someone starts messing with your access to YOUR money based on frivilous garbage like this they need to be slapped and slapped hard. I know allot of people have lost tens of thousands of dollars to paypal over things like this, And I know my case is nothing compared to those. I still cannot help but vent about it.

A word of warning to anyone selling lead or brass on here or anywhere else. Send invoices and tell people to not put ANYTHING in the notes. This kind of thing WILL happen to you eventually otherwise. And it still may but they will have allot less to assume with.

[fcvan]

This sounds pretty fouled up, to say the least. It sounds like they are looking for your affirmation that such behavior is against policy and that you will not violate said policy.

An affiant providing a declaration of acknowledgement of policy, coupled with the declaration of compliance with said policy, is NOT a tacit admission of guilt regarding said policy. Providing them with such a declaration of affirmation will likely satisfy their legal department so that they can remove the limitations placed on your account.

They just want their butts covered with a piece of paper due to the perceived violation. Your affidavit will also serve as record of your not having violated said policy. Good luck

[gnoahhh]

I never ever never make a notation when using PayPal (and I use it all the time, mostly for gun-related stuff). To make a notation like that is downright dumb, and Mr. Phoenix's warning is spot on. Don't do it. Leave that space blank.

[Phoenix]

Oh no, The affidavit specifically says that I understand I will NOT violate the terms again and that I understand my violation and will not do it again. If it was what you are saying I would not have nearly as much trouble with it. The idea is not to open the bottle because you cant ever seem to get the genie back in. My main point is they should not had made such an assertation to begin with.

[km101]

I have lost money in a very similar situation. Paypal decided that I was selling ammunition, when it was only brass. No amount of clarification and/or pictures would satisfy them. I will not use paypal again.

[Whiterabbit]

Are these people not regulated at all by the over-regulated state of california? I don't think any bank could get away with this.

you must be new here.

[Phoenix]

I do consulting work for banks. The regulatory agencies for banks and credit unions are a beurocratic nightmare. Once you open that dogs cage good luck getting them back in. It is obvious that paypal does not have to deal with that kind of regulation.

[fcvan]

Phoenix, I was not correctly understanding they specifically sent you an affidavit. I of course would not sign such a document as would be admission to a violation whether or not one occurred. Being a ornery bugger myself, I would revise their affidavit and include a cover letter indicating:

'After review by counsel, the affidavit provided was not signed as it assumed facts and circumstances not supported by evidence. I did not violate policy and will not sign a document that contains such an admission. I will however attest to strict compliance with policy as it relates to any transaction completed previously, and for any future transactions anticipated.'

What can they do, so no? They have already limited your account. I do not see where countering their affidavit with an amended declaration would be too difficult. If the outcome is they continue to limit your account then you aren't out much effort. What can it hurt?

[sparkz]

well, maybe ya can look into like western union cash transfir for the coming sales untill it cools off so they dont play with YOUR MONEY, i have read some real soorys about PP and olny got one to get stuff here and on E-bay as its only game in town for it

hope it works out well for ya scott


Patrick

[jcwit]

I would get on the phone and talk directly to a real person who might have some common sense. Sure beats sending E-Mails back and forth, and not knowing the position of the person you're corresponding with. Then when finished has the live person send documents clarifying the situation.

[300winmag]

:takinWiz: On paypal, account closed........

[DougGuy]

I would call them out on this one. I would get someone on the phone, and show clarification that what you did was NOT against their policy, rather than admit that you UNDERSTAND what you did was wrong. What THEY did, was wrong.

Craigslist does the same stupid sh*t if you list boolits and use any words their filters may catch. People can sell powder, brass, presses, dies, none of it is against their TOS. Neither is unloaded and unassembled ammo, but they pick up any of those catch phrases and they flag and remove the ad.

[Bill*]

I believe a website called www dot "gethuman" dot com will give you phone numbers for almost any company.

[HighHook]

This is happening to a lot of people lately. Somehow i know... :(

[GRUMPA]

The one thing I was taught while growing up (and I was raised by 2 LEO's) is a person is always innocent until guilty. Now it seems that it's the other way around, people now are pointing the finger of guilt at anyone. Doesn't matter if your right and they're wrong, they can do it and not be liable for it and your the innocent victim.

Have dealt with this for many years and had my fill, and folks wonder why I live AWAY from people.

It makes matters worse when on your dime and your time you have to correct the ignorant. What's worse is when folks seem to have some sort of authority they think they are right and your wrong and to bad.

When I get people like that my language changes for the worse and seems I can say the same bad words in more than 1 language. Normally when I'm on the phone I ask for the supervisor and get things resolved in short order, but not until my blood is boiling from the ignorant trying to call the shots about my life which they have no business doing so.

[dtknowles]

Why would you use the services of a clearly anti-gun company, you are supporting the enemy? I expect it is for convenience but I believe that is wrong headed. People sometimes ask if I would take PayPal, I don't, I have a account that I have not used in years. I am tempted to close the account and tell them why but that would be a waste of energy

Tim

[Phoenix]

It is NOT for my convenience. There are allot of people that will buy from the guy taking paypal. GO look on gunbroker. Items where the seller takes paypal are sometimes going to much higher amounts. Two reasons. Buyer protection and convenience. It is a matter of business sense nothing else. Even years ago people taking paypal sold allot more on ebay than those that did not.


Why would you use the services of a clearly anti-gun company, you are supporting the enemy? I expect it is for convenience but I believe that is wrong headed. People sometimes ask if I would take PayPal, I don't, I have a account that I have not used in years. I am tempted to close the account and tell them why but that would be a waste of energy

Tim

[Phoenix]

Well that didn't go well. My 10+ year old premier business account is now apparently done. NO matter what happens the next time someone at paypal decides to mis-interpret something my account will be closed and the 6 month waiting period to retrieve funds will begin. All paypal determinations are permanent.

Without an attorney, thousands of dollars, and way more patience than I have left I will get nothing more than my money faster. You cannot even sue them unless you can get a judge to allow you to go outside your agreement for mediation.

[wv109323]

The "person" that made the decision is probably a liberal, an idiot about firearms ,erring on the side of extreme caution, personal prejudice and trying to be hard on you.
In short the person probably hates conservatives and doing every thing in their power to stop the firearms business. You will find this is commonplace with PayPal.

[Love Life]

It is NOT for my convenience. There are allot of people that will buy from the guy taking paypal. GO look on gunbroker. Items where the seller takes paypal are sometimes going to much higher amounts. Two reasons. Buyer protection and convenience. It is a matter of business sense nothing else. Even years ago people taking paypal sold allot more on ebay than those that did not.

Not only that, but people can use credit cards with paypal. Opens you up to more buyers. I know this is Gunbroker specific, but have you looked into their new credit card system. I have been eyballing it for awhile.

[dtknowles]

Phoenix

When I responded earlier I had not noticed that you were a vendor. I am sorry for my comments and your troubles with PayPal. As a vendor I expect it was a business decision that could affect your ability to stay in business. Other firearms businesses are making painful decisions including relocating there business to make the point that there will be consequences for anti-gun activity. I hope you can find another way to accept electronic payments, I would be concerned that there will be another PayPal SNAFU.

Tim


It is NOT for my convenience. There are allot of people that will buy from the guy taking paypal. GO look on gunbroker. Items where the seller takes paypal are sometimes going to much higher amounts. Two reasons. Buyer protection and convenience. It is a matter of business sense nothing else. Even years ago people taking paypal sold allot more on ebay than those that did not.

[Finster101]

I would be pulling whatever funds I had in there out ASAP

On another note, you must have missed the thread where a firearms business had his line of credit closed simply because it was a firearms business

[historicfirearms]

I got a paypal debit card. Paid for my last rifle with it, also bought ammo and powder. Take that paypal!

[DCP]

Yesterday, my paypal account was limited for their total misinterpretation of someone elses note.
Some people put the words lead and boolits in the same notes field. .
223 blanks being in the notes.

Now I dont really care what someone puts in the notes .


Pay pal is a problem.

BUT

What kind of Idiot puts 223 blanks in the notes for raw lead
A competitor

[WILCO]

I will not use paypal again.

Exactly! Vote with your wallet and find another way to do business. Crying for someone to regulate them is ignorant.

[Phoenix]

What kind of Idiot puts 223 blanks in the notes for raw lead
A competitor

No, someone buying 223 blank brass. They assumed (paypal) they were live blanks not brass.

I sell brass, lead, and molds

[uscra112]

If you ever do manage to get a human at Paypal, it will be a South Asian with no authority to do anything at all. Paypal is out of control. I dropped off evilBay for good a few months ago, due to Paypal shenanigans, and they won't even let me close my account. I've had to cancel the credit card it was linked to, to be sure that new charges can't show up. In my conversation with my bank, the lady told me that of all the sources of identity theft they deal with in her dept., the greatest proportion come from . . . . Paypal. Insiders misappropriating data from their database.

[badbob454]

if paypal dosent allow ammo and gun sales , why is it a pay option on gunbroker?

[knifemaker]

It has been my understanding that Ebay does not allow the sale of both bullets or brass to be used as a componet in reloading and of course no ammunition sales either. They will allow you to sell reloading equitment, but no bullets or brass for reloading.

[Phoenix]

Reloading tools, brass, similar items that are not components are allowed. Any form of live ammunition, powder, primers, bullets. guns, gun parts. are not allowed. BUT they can 'assume' it is whatever they want and they will not reverse their decision.

Paypal on gunbroker is pretty much for brass, accessories, etc

You cannot sell brass on ebay. but you can use paypal for it. But there is a serious risk. Even lead has risks or being misinterpreted.

[knifemaker]

Ebay does allow gun parts to be sold on their site. Paypal was started up by Ebay and I understand that Ebay and Paypal are owned by the same corp. If my memory serves me right, Ebay stopped allowing brass and bullets, as reloading componets, be sold after a customer purchased those items and used them in a shooting incident. Ebay is not 100% friendly to firearm users, but still will allow some firearm related items to be sold.

[DCP]

No, someone buying 223 blank brass. They assumed (paypal) they were live blanks not brass.

I sell brass, lead, and molds

Ok

Paypal is way out of line. Talk to a human

[contender1]

I understand the business side of things. You are a vendor. You choose how you can do business the most efficient way & make the most money. It's your business decision on how to run things.
I went to the SHOT Show (as usual) this year but this time I ramped up my discussions with COE's & such folks about the entire industry & how gun people were being treated.
The politicians know they have a hard time fighting the Second Amendment. The anti-gunners have learned it as well. So, they have changed tactics. Nowhere in our Rights does it guarantee the ownership of ammo, or how a business must operate.
While at SHOT,, we all watched as NY & their anti-gun governor shoved new anti-gun regulations through the system. Since then, we've watched a few other places do the same. (Conn, Co, ) As is so often done,, when new laws are written,,, they add an "exemption" for "LEO & Military." I started preaching harder than ever about how the major manufacturers should band together when this happens & say; "Thanks for the exemption for LEO & Military,, but if we can't sell to the citizens the same stuff as the LEO's then "NO THANKS!" We voluntarily will not sell to LEO's anything a citizen can not purchase."
I also worked hard at telling any who would listen that big companies who are in such anti-gun states should move their business out of those places.

Money talks.

When the politicians run businesses out, or restrict them so much to where they can not be competitive, a business & the consumers suffer.

(Example; Bill Ruger saw how the winds were blowing,, and built a plant in Az. While they are still in Conn,,, they do a lot more in AZ than ever. AND, at the recent stockholders meeting,,, Mr Fifer mentioned the fact that Ruger is looking at building another plant,, MAYBE in Texas.

And we've all watched how Magpul has relocated. As well as Olympic Arms refusing to sell to NY. Or how the first person to stand up to the anti's Ronnie Barrett,, moved his business.

Until businesses use their collective monetary power to push back against such companies, or politicians,, we will continue to lose the fight.
PayPal, owned by anti-gun sleezbay,,, reaps a LOT of money off gun owners. I bet the liberals who own it enjoy a few laughs during board meetings on how the stupid gun owners are footing the bill to defeat themselves.

All of this is a bit of info for thought.

You have to make a business decision.

Use "slavePal" & suffer,, or do business with a place that doesn't like your type of business.

Yes, I know slavePal is used by so many folks. Yes, I know currently it's the "easiest" & the "biggest" way of doing business. But that doesn't make it the BEST way to do business.

I recently had a customer who almost insisted I accept slavePal from him. I politely explained how they were an anti-gun company, unregulated, & how any issues are a nightmare to resolve. I allowed how the USPS money order system was a protection backed up by laws & regulations.
He used the USPS money order system.

We as business people need to reverse the thinking of the consumer to help our industry for the long haul.

[pdawg_shooter]

I will NOT use paypal for anything. If a supplier wont take anything else, they do not get the sale.

[fatelk]

While I fully expect that most of the people who run ebay and paypal are likely anti-gun to one degree or another just because they are city people in blue states, I don't necessarily see them as "anti-gun" companies. I see them as big corporations that make stupid, knee-jerk decisions.

I like listening to Clark Howard on the radio. One of the things he says often is that the bigger corporations get, the stupider they get. I've worked for big corporations, and have seen some pretty stupid decisions come down from on high. I've gotten a little insight into how "corporate-minded" people generally think. It's all about what might look best for the company's reputation, or help them climb that corporate ladder, or look good to the boss or their peers, or get a better bonus. They may be totally clueless about guns, or not care one way or the other. Their decisions are simply a "fix" so they can say they did something.

[Phoenix]

I dont recall crying for anything to be regulated. I asked the question because I have experience with banks and credit unions and have even talked to some clients about it and they said they could not under any circumstances get away with just holding someone's money arbitrarily (it requires a signed order) The most ignorant statement in this thread was the one below. I don't agree with the vast majority of government regulation, however making it so companies can't steal your money (even temporarily) it at least enters my mind. It is hard to believe in california (one of the most regulated states in the country that they are not. I take care of myself, I don't expect anyone else to do it for me. In this case I cannot take care of it myself.

The vote with your wallet doesn't work too well either sometimes. If you own a restaurant and don't accept credit cards you will lose a decent percentage of your client base. Just a fact, doesn't matter what your opinion is that is how it is. All forms of services and retail it is a struggle if you do not take credit cards.


Exactly! Vote with your wallet and find another way to do business. Crying for someone to regulate them is ignorant.

[Phoenix]

Gun parts is a grey area, do it long enough and it will bite you. They recently just loosened the rules enough to sell more than you could a year ago. Paypal was not started by ebay. "In October 2002, PayPal was acquired by eBay for $1.5 billion"


Ebay does allow gun parts to be sold on their site. Paypal was started up by Ebay and I understand that Ebay and Paypal are owned by the same corp. If my memory serves me right, Ebay stopped allowing brass and bullets, as reloading componets, be sold after a customer purchased those items and used them in a shooting incident. Ebay is not 100% friendly to firearm users, but still will allow some firearm related items to be sold.

[Phoenix]

Did that, They dont care. If you mention litigation they remind you you cant. you are bound by a arbitration agreement. They refuse to change their determination regardless of the proof provided.


Paypal is way out of line. Talk to a human

[Phoenix]

I am not in disagreement in ideology. I have been in business online for 14 years, Back in the beginning it was easy but the customer base was much smaller and so was the competition. Losing half your business or 90% is some cases is usually a deal breaker. The best way to do business is what keeps you sane and in business. Things are never as simple as they may appear. I owned an ISP for years up until 2008 and not taking credit cards wouls be suicide. Less than 15% of our subscribers got paper bills, email billing was a total failure, Credit cards solved most of the issues. I really wish it was that easy.


You have to make a business decision.

Use "slavePal" & suffer,, or do business with a place that doesn't like your type of business.

Yes, I know slavePal is used by so many folks. Yes, I know currently it's the "easiest" & the "biggest" way of doing business. But that doesn't make it the BEST way to do business.

I recently had a customer who almost insisted I accept slavePal from him. I politely explained how they were an anti-gun company, unregulated, & how any issues are a nightmare to resolve. I allowed how the USPS money order system was a protection backed up by laws & regulations.
He used the USPS money order system.

We as business people need to reverse the thinking of the consumer to help our industry for the long haul.

[Texantothecore]

I closed my Paypal account several years ago. I had too many problems with them.

[otter5555]

I totally ignore the a##holes at paypal. i sell guns/ammo/etc. when i send an paypal money request to a buyer i declare the it to be for "services" (just tick the box) and go on your merry way.

it's none of their d### business. It is MY money. i avg over 100 transactions per month and have done this since paypal first began with zero trouble.

otter

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

well, it looks like those of us casters that use paypal need to be more discreet !
"tooling" and "supplies"
Jon

[destrux]

I had this happen years ago when they first changed the rules. I sold a standard SKS magazine on ebay and paypal deemed it a high-cap because... well they don't know a damn thing about guns.

This was back when they permanently banned you, so I was supposedly banned for good. Five years later I contacted them to reinstate my account when I heard on a gun forum that they would do that if I agreed not to sell anything against the rules again. My account worked fine for about 2 years, I was selling car parts on ebay (I was doing only money orders for gun parts I sold on forums and gunbroker)

Then Newtown happened.

The NEXT DAY my paypal account was refusing to accept payments from all of my ebay buyers (mostly car parts, a few reloading dies though too) and when my ebay buyers called ebay about the problem they were told I was banned from paypal for selling illegal firearms (which is NOT true), and I even had a buyer call me and yell at me on the phone about it. I lost a few thousand dollars in sales from buyers backing out of purchases. When I called paypal they told me there was no problem with my account. This was never resolved, I've called ebay and paypal customer service over a dozen times and I'm convinced someone there did something to my account that caused this problem. I gave up a month or so ago and shut down my eBay business and moved my stuff to eBid.net. They are much smaller though, and aren't much more gun friendly, so I don't sell nearly as much as I did. Reloading stuff sells well there though, since people are scouring every dark corner of the internet for it right now.

I rarely use my paypal anymore, unless it's to send paypal gifts (they make no money on them) to people. I use USPS money orders as much as I can. I'd rather give money to the government than paypal. It's too bad there's no great alternative to paypal. I tried a bunch of their competitors but people are shy about using them.

[angus6]

When using p/p to sell NEVER give your address out for payment , Always send a payment request

[jsheyn]

if you dont use paypal to feed your family then....good by and good ridence!!

[w5pv]

I am too senior in years to start but why couldn't a bank,place to pay and get paid be started here Cast Boolits and the hell with paypal.

[9w1911]

I use paypal. and it is true you will get more buyers, however I want to drop them from my own webstore, I do not sell fire arm related products but i have been doing business online for a long time, i have a virtual terminal through my bank so I can process cards now. It would be cheaper in the long run, safer and a lot less worry to have a webstore built for vendors here or elsewhere, built by someone like me.

[leeggen]

Just a suggestion, if a customer stated 223 blanks, you could have emailed them and say no not 223 blank but yes 223 brass casings once fired (or such). Carifacation is now taken care of at that instance.
JMO
CD

[torpedoman]

PAYPAL donates heavy money to all anti gun causes and i want to tell you it is hard to defeat your enemy when you are supplying them with ammo.,

[Jammersix]

Their service, their rules.