45ACP random failure to feed

[jonp]

I've been playing with MBC 200gr rnfp and Promo powder. I have a good luck with this but a vexing problem. 1 round out of a magazine will not feed. The slide stops 1/8 -1/4 in from going into battery. I can push the slide in with my thumb easily. I've adjusted the oal and crimp but still have the problem. I am using a mid,range 4.6gr of promo and it's pretty accurate otherwise.
Any ideas?

[Bonz]

I'm having the exact same problem with a new Colt Defender. I am loading a 200gr RN with 6.4gr of Vihtavuori N340. That load shoots fine in my Colt Government but not in the defender. I am moving to a faster powder, VV N320 to hopefully resolve the problem. Not sure about you, but I definately can see unburned gunpowder in my guns, more in the defender than in the government

[jonp]

Not having the powder problem but it does remind me of something. I am using 45acp small primer brass. Im going to try both large primer and small pistol magnum and see what happens

[MtGun44]

Inadequate or non-existent taper crimp is the primary cause of this problem.

Are you taper crimping as a separate operation? If not, start, if you are, add more
TC.

This has been about 80+% of the loading problems with .45 ACP over decades of
assisting IPSC shooters.

[fredj338]

Check your mags. Does it happen at with the same mag @ the same round count? If it does, the mag is suspect. New mag or new mag spring.
If it is totally random & you are using mixed brass, isolate which brass manuf. It could be a slightly thicker case.

[Doc_Stihl]

As MtnGun44 pointed out, I'd check the crimp first.

[trixter]

I know this sounds too simple, but I found that I either had to seat the boolit deeper, or clean the gun. I run 4gr Bullseye and a 200 gr HP or SWC and because it is a light load, it is very sensitive to a dirty slide.

[rond]

Try increasing the powder a little, it may not have enough power to completely cycle all the time.

[jonp]

All great ideas.
I am taper crimping and seating at the same time with my rcbs die. The crimp is .473 which i measured after seating the boolit. This should work. OAL at 1.173 and it seems to plunk fine.
I did not think to check the brand of brass and will do it. I should have thought of that because a Blackhawk I had was fussy about one brand of brass.
The charge is about mid for Promo/red dot and should work. I can increase it but I'm going to try checking the magazine. I don't know if it's the same number round each time just about the 4th or 5th. I have a brand new mag still in the package and will break it out and try it.

[gwpercle]

After shooting various 1911's for years and experiencing the seemingly endless things that make them not feed, function, eject and whatever. I even brought an AMT Hardballer to the local priest for an exorcism ( I swear that gun is possed by the devil ). I bought a Taurus 455, 45 acp, 5 shot revolver, 2 inch ported barrel and fixed sights. I wasn't looking for another 45 acp , but It was such a cool looking gun , 45 cal 2 in. snub nosed J frame...This thing is now my favorite 45acp. Any thing that slips in the chamber fires. Full wadcutter, semi-wadcutter , roll crimp, taper crimp, no magazine to be concerned with....and more accurate than my Gold Cup..its spooky the groups it shoots. If you get tired of semi's and all thier idiosyncrasies, try out a 45 acp revolver...I really like mine and keeping an eye out for another with adjustable sights. And the best thing is I don't have to chase brass all over the place...out of each box it seemed as I always lost one or two cases.
Gary

[C.F.Plinker]

Try the plunk test again. If it passes, rotate the cartridge 45* and do it again. Keep rotating the cartridge until you have tried it through all 8 positions and verified that it passes in all of them. If the cartridge can get hung up occasionally because because it is ever so slightly out of round you will get intermittant failures to chamber and will need to crimp just a little bit more.

What is the OD of the case mouth on a freshly sized round? Mine are around .470. Taper crimp down to the diameter of a sized round or a little less to make sure you get all of the belling out.

[35remington]

The 1911 and many of the RNFP designs aren't all that compatible. These are mostly cowboy action bullets for the 45 Colt and as such load to a nonstandard length. This produces steeper and kachunkier feeding and makes things more malfunction prone. Shape matters. Length matters.

What magazines?

[daniel lawecki]

+1 MtGun 44

[jonp]

Issue mags. I have a Pro Mag new in the pkg and am going to try one out. I'm also going to try rotating the brass now to see what happens.
With this boolit, 200gr 45acp rnfp it has a crimp groove which I put up in another thread asking if it was a crimp groove. Would seating the boolit to the groove and crimping it down to .471 cause the case to not space on the mouth since the boolit itself is .452? how much brass must be showing for a proper headspace to feed? Just enough to catch?
I will try and find a separate taper crimp die like a lee factory crimp I guess but they are in short supply and I hate to ad another step although I hate non-feeding guns even worse.

Question on the taper crimp/seating die: when initially adjusting the die downwards to stop on the case mouth that is the point that it is at .473, the recommended size in my lymans or should be, right? So even though it is a carbon I should turn it more to get to .471 then go ahead and adjust the seating depth for the boolit?

Thanks everyone for the ideas. I've spent most of my reloading on revolvers which are far easier, this is the first auto I've tried to go after in detail and it's a little frustrating.

[waksupi]

May need more grip.

[robpete]

I'm also a huge fan of crimping as a sererate operation. A little more work, but absolutely worth the extra effort.


PS- Midway does currently have the 45ACP factory crimp die available. I wouldn't hesitate on ordering though.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/716704/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die-45-acp-45-auto-rim

[MtGun44]

Don't by a Lee Factory crimp die. Just get the taper crimp die.

TC as a separate operation to .471.

Bill

[jonp]

Thanks for the link and info, robpete and MtGun44. Are you guys saying I need a separate taper crimp and a seating die as opposed to one crimp/seating die or can I use my crimp/seating die before or after the separate crimp die.
I just measured my fired brass and it measures from .892 - .894. Should I trim them all to .892, .888 as the book gives as a trim-to-length or will .002 make that much difference?

[robpete]

Bill, I want to start by saying that I truly value your opinions....but out of curiosity, what do you have against the factory crimp die? I love them. Is there an advantage to using a standard TC?

Thanks,
Rob

[archmaker]

I had all sorts of problems trying to get my 45 to shoot consistently. New to auto, long time reloader. Found the Wilson pistol max gauge, as i was doing the test with the barrel off and still having some issues. Well I started with one round no crimp, seat the bullet deep in the case (dummy round), started to adjust my crimp until the round dropped in with no problem. The I seat the bullet where I thought it should be, and problems, only had to seat it a little bit more to have no problems. Added a touch more depth and crimp (1/4 turn) and tested a production run. Now I know the rounds are good, from two of the common problem have to deal with others . . . one at a time.

[MtGun44]

Interesting. I never saw a piece of .45 ACP brass make it to trim length. Probably not the problem,
but too long would only hold it open .002, and that is pretty much closed.

Is there a buildup of a tiny lead ring ahead of the case mouth? This often happens when crimping and
seating in the same die.

Bill

[robpete]

jonp-I have fired and loaded tens of thousands of 45 ACP rounds and can honestly say that I have never trimmed a single case. In fact I didn't even own a trimmer until after joining this site and buying one from a fellow member(thanks Dave!)

You'll back your exisiting seating/crimp die out and just use it as a seater. then you use an additional crimp die...factory crimp or TC..to crimp as a stand alone operation. Is that what you were asking?

[doctorggg]

I have fired an awful lot of 45 acp. Colt, Kimber, Taurus and Sig Sauer. I seat and taper crimp in separate operations. I have found the Wilson case gauge to be invaluable. If it drops into the gauge it will chamber. I have had magazine problems with one of my Kimber's. It preferred power mags and the other Kimbers were not finicky. Good luck with your problem.

[Iron Mike Golf]

My experience:

1. Seating and crimping in one step can give you a buildup of lead and/or lube at the case mouth. Lead at the case mouth can cause this problem. Lube can build up in the seater/crimper die and then get smeared on the outside of an otherwise OK case. That can cause this problem.

2. Midrange powder charge for a 200 gr boolit and factory springs? Like Waksupi said, more grip maybe. Your load might be marginal for a factory spring setup.

3. OK, untrimmed cases and maybe you get an odd case that is under spec (i.e. too short). If you don't have much throat in the barrel, such a round will have more driveband/shank forward of the case mouth and run into the lands.

4. Fouling can make some headstamps a tad too tight and others cycle fine. Are you getting any or much gas blowback? If you do, depending on the lube, it is a combo of lube and carbon. Has it ever happened early in a range session, when the gun is still relatively clean?

I'd not change anything and let it happen again. Then, get and save that round and not fire it. Inspect it, photograph it, mic it, and plunk test it. Plunk test it right then and there and set it aside for the other stuff later. Inspect the chamber for excessive fouling. Knowing for sure what caused a malfunction is a good thing.

[wv109323]

The Bullseye Crowd use a TC of .469/.470. Clean the chamber. Hold two cases side by side touching one another. You should be able to see if your crimp is enough. The crimped area should have a little clearance between the two cases.

[David2011]

Tons of good advice here for a problem with many possible causes. Light loads will, over time, cause a buildup of carbon in the front of the cartridge. A carbon cleaner is required to remove it if that's the problem. Marginal light charges may only be moving the slide back just enough to pick up a new round. The slide needs a running start to strip a round and chamber it cleanly. Certainly not holding the gun firmly enough can cause the problem. Crimping should be to .471- .469, preferring .471-.470. Any smaller will make the boolit undersized; any larger isn't really crimped yet. All, and I mean 100% of my match .40 and .45 is case gaged before going into the ammo boxes. Borrow a Wilson Combat magazine when you're having feeding problems. I've loaned mine out several times to people having feeding problems and in all but one case they solved the problem but those guns were all shooting IPSC major level handloads so not light loads. IIRC the ammo ended up being the problem in that one case.

If you really like your current load you might look into lighter recoil springs. They're an easy way to troubleshoot.

David

[jonp]

This all great advice and is why i'm on this site.
My first steps, I think, will be to take my die apart and make sure it is clean then try the.same load with the same mag. If the problem is still there i'll try a brand new mag then I will increase the charge as factory ammo seems to run fine so maybe more oompf is needed as I bought the gun used so the mag spring mite be weak.

[dg31872]

+2 on what MtGun44 said. I took his advice on the crimp and now my Gold Cup works great.

[prs]

This thread is quite an education!

prs

[MtGun44]

jonp,

Are you taper crimping to .471 or so in a separate operation?

robpete,

The Lee pistol factory crimp die is a TC die with a post sizing carbide ring in the base.
The carbide ring can only do one of two things, one is just a waste of money, and
the other ruins your boolits.

If the loaded cartridge does not touch the postsizing ring, then the ammo will be fine
and you just wasted the money on the useless/harmful ring. The die works just like
an ordinary taper crimp die.

If the loaded cartridge is larger than the carbide ring, it will size down the cartridge,
which crushes the boolit a bit. Now your carefully made, sized and installed boolit
is the wrong size (too small) and will probably not work properly if it was set up
to work properly before. Leading, tumbling, inaccuracy are common results.

The folks that have them and say "Well, mine works great, why would you say
all those bad things about my wonderful die?" fall into the first group. They just
wasted their money. The good news is that it appears that the majority of the
tolerance stackups fall into this category, and no harm is done except to your
wallet.

There is absolutely no need to post size a loaded cartridge. If you are using properly
made dies and using them correctly, there is never a need for this operation unless
something is way out of tolerance in the process.

With jbullets, and some weird combination of a very thick walled brass and a large
jbullet, you may possibly get a problem with a tight chamber. Postsizing the round
will make it chamber, and with Jbullets, a bare grip on the rifling can work, so MAYBE
this device is not 100% harmful in loading jbullets. For boolits, if you have the
proper size on you boolit, sizing it down in the case ruins it. In addition, the lead
does not spring back as much as the brass, so the neck tension is reduced or even
eliminated, and this could lead to boolit push-in which can radically increase pressures.
So for loading boolits the Lee Pistol type FCD is either doing nothing or wrecking your
ammo.

The Lee RIFLE FCD is a totally different device and works very well. It is a
shame that it shares the name with the other device.

Bill

[fredj338]

I don't feel it is the crimp if it is random, unless the mixed brass is causing the issue.

[robpete]

Bill - Thanks for the education. Unfortunately, it makes too much sense and I'm afraid I fall into your first category.

[jonp]

I reduced my crimp to .473 as that is what the book says it should be. I sized one in my rcbs die and it is .470 and i'm using a .452 boolit so it should work. I'm going to try everythng here along the way. Thanks for all the help and any more suggestions/advice will be appreciated.

[rintinglen]

I am a firm believer in the Lee FCD for straight sided cases, rifle and pistol combined. I have used one for 20+ years now to assure my 38 WC ammo will chamber. I use it on my 44 Special and Magnum as well. However, I do not use them on tapered pistol cartridges. Especially in the 9mm, they can cause the very problems Mtngn44 describes. However, if you want your ammo to chamber and go bang, and you don't have all day to sort brass and test fit cartridges, they are beneficial, especially if you are mass producing lots of ammo on a progressive press.

[MtGun44]

Somehow I have managed to get several hundred thousand rounds to fit and
go bang in about 50 different handguns over that last 48 years with ordinary
loading dies. I'd be interested in what actual effect is causing ammo from
ordinary dies to be so oversized as to fail to chamber unless sized down
after seating the boolit.

Why is it that no other die company has ever found a need to market a
product like this? Perhaps because there is no actual need? Most of
that ammo was loaded on progressive presses and mostly straight
case cartridges.

"to assure my 38 WC will chamber". Does it fail to chamber if you use
a normal crimping die? I really would like to understand what the underlying
issue is if this is happening. I have never had a single round of revolver ammo
fail to chamber when loaded with ordinary dies, and mostly with "oversized"
boolits. I still say the FCD is a solution seeking a problem.

Bill

[btroj]

Agree totally on the FCD. My guns just don't have failures to feed because of an "oversized" round.
Lee didn't make a product we needed, they made a need for a product they made. Great marketing for a product with little need.

[Bonz]

Just as a reminder from my early post in this thread, I'm having the same problem as Jonp. But, this only happens in my Colt Defender and does not happen or has ever happened in my Colt Government. And all of my die sets are the Lee 4 die sets with the Factory Crimp die included.

[MtGun44]

Different guns can need different seating depth (LOA) and degree of TC. I
had not changed my setup in several decades, literally, - feeding 3 or 4 different
1911s without issue. Then I bought a Dan Wesson Pointman 7. It has a
very tight throat and required me to change my "standard load" LOA from
1.260 to 1.250 (this is with commercial H&G 68 boolits).

Set your LOA and TC to your 'pickiest' gun, probably will work fine for
the less picky (looser chamber and throats).

Bill

[HABCAN]

The very firstest thing I look at when a revolver shooter has trouble with his new semi-auto feeding is..........his elbow. To ensure reliable feeding the auto gun's recoil must be resisted, and this is not necessary to make a revolver function although it affects grouping. If you will consciously try to force your front sight through the target every time, that USUALLY cures the 'feeding problem'.

[waksupi]

The very firstest thing I look at when a revolver shooter has trouble with his new semi-auto feeding is..........his elbow. To ensure reliable feeding the auto gun's recoil must be resisted, and this is not necessary to make a revolver function although it affects grouping. If you will consciously try to force your front sight through the target every time, that USUALLY cures the 'feeding problem'.

Yep, that was the inference on my previous post, but it seems most want to skip the obvious, and go right to other things. Limp wristing a semi auto causes that particular malfunction, among others.

[jonp]

No, guys I did not skip over what you said about the limp wrist. I just started re-loading for a semi-auto but have been shooting them for years and don't "limp wrist" so didn't mention it. I have not run into this problem with any factory ammo used in my auto's and have had a number of 45's from Colt, Ruger, Sig, Kahr and Springfield. I am making an extra effort to not do that the next time I shoot it, though. It seems to fire factory ammo just fine with no hitch.

[jonp]

Thanks for all of the advice.
I ended up taking several pieces of it and solved the problem. I cleaned the dies again with a piece of 0000 steel wool sprayed with balistol. I also seated the boolit out a little and then crimped it down a little more to .472 then used a new magazine. I also found that in the federal brass there is a few that will not work for some reason and am sorting them out to see what the trouble is with them. I think they might be a little longer than the rest so when I have my die set they are not the same as the others.
Biggest problem seems to have been the magazine. A new one works fine. If it stops raining I am going to load some more and use the old one and see what happens.

Thanks for all of the help

[Maximumbob54]

I'm another Lee Carbide Factory Crimp user. I use it in my Classic Turret. I like the instand tactile feedback on a questionable cartridge. The post sizing ring is made to only kiss the sides of the case as it crimps the mouth. If you feel more than that then that's an alarm that should be ringing in your head. If you use it for cases that use larger than standard bullet diameters then I guess here's your sign. It's crazy easy to adjust. All my .45 ACP and .45 Colt bullets sized to .452" aren't altered in the slightest bit. I don't shoot a S&W M25 or SAA that might need .454" or different sized bullets so it works great for me. Know what your tools do and how they do them and your tools won't do unexpected things. Don't know what your tools do or how they do anything and who know's what trouble you will run into. It's not a solution in search of a problem; it's an idea a guy had that makes some things easier for those who know how to use an alternate tool. Otherwise the standard Lee seating die is still just like everyone else's seating and crimping die.