Oil From Trash

[Boz330]

This makes a lot more sense than tax money for green energy that doesn't work.

http://www.flixxy.com/convert-plastic-to-oil.htm

Bob

[oldred]

Machine to convert plastic to oil? Since plastic is made from oil it would seem to make a lot more sense to not use so much "throw away" plastic in the first place.

[Blammer]

If he could mass produce that machine and the ability to 'home refine the oil' he'd be the next Zuckerman.

[Blammer]

Machine to convert plastic to oil? Since plastic is made from oil it would seem to make a lot more sense to not use so much "throw away" plastic in the first place.

then the use of "paper bags" would come back into play and the tree huggers would get bent. Everyone keeps forgetting Trees are a natural RENEWABLE resource.

[oldred]

Sounds a lot like the waste cooking oil excitement from a while back, to read the articles it was made to sound as if all you had to do was set up the equipment and make free diesel fuel from all the "free" waste oil from restaurants, one goofy writer even went so far as to proclaim it to be partial solution to the energy crisis! Although a lot more oil could probably be reclaimed from recycled plastics it still would be a lot like the cooking oil, "free" cooking oil or waste plastics would immediately become a commodity that would shoot up so high in price any cost savings would be lost plus compared to the amount of oil used in this country it would not even amount to the proverbial "drop in the bucket", in the case of cooking oil just think how much more diesel fuel is used in any local compared to the amount of waste cooking oil produced yet people got excited! Plus a lot of these new energy "technologies" actually take more energy to produce than they return.

[Boz330]

Sounds a lot like the waste cooking oil excitement from a while back, to read the articles it was made to sound as if all you had to do was set up the equipment and make free diesel fuel from all the "free" waste oil from restaurants, one goofy writer even went so far as to proclaim it to be partial solution to the energy crisis! Although a lot more oil could probably be reclaimed from recycled plastics it still would be a lot like the cooking oil, "free" cooking oil or waste plastics would immediately become a commodity that would shoot up so high in price any cost savings would be lost plus compared to the amount of oil used in this country it would not even amount to the proverbial "drop in the bucket", in the case of cooking oil just think how much more diesel fuel is used in any local compared to the amount of waste cooking oil produced yet people got excited! Plus a lot of these new energy "technologies" actually take more energy to produce than they return.

A friend of mine set up one of the cooking oil processors for his business vehicles. He had to buy lockable waste oil containers for the restaurants that he contracted with. He was getting the oil for free though. I'm not sure whether he was paying the road tax or not though. One company locally that got caught had to pony up a million bucks in back road taxes since they weren't paying any.

If the thing was cheap enough it would help even if you could just partially replace some of the fuel that you used. I drive 75 miles round trip to work every day not to mention other driving. A gallon or two per day would help out in the long run.

Bob

[TheGrimReaper]

If he could mass produce that machine and the ability to 'home refine the oil' he'd be the next Zuckerman.Isn't that the truth!!!

[KYCaster]

Kinda reminded me of Doc using garbage to power the flux capacitor in his DeLorean.

I wonder how many kilowatt hours it takes to boil 2 KG of plastic to get $1.00 worth of fuel.

Jerry

[Swamp Man]

Here is the problem with any type of fuel replacements for oil. Your government don't want ANYONE stepping on the toes of big oil and they will tax any and all replacement fuel out of the market. They government wants people to believe they want replacements but the truth is big oil is king and it pads the pockets of DC.

[oldred]

A friend of mine set up one of the cooking oil processors for his business vehicles. He had to buy lockable waste oil containers for the restaurants that he contracted with. He was getting the oil for free though. I'm not sure whether he was paying the road tax or not though. One company locally that got caught had to pony up a million bucks in back road taxes since they weren't paying any. If the thing was cheap enough it would help even if you could just partially replace some of the fuel that you used. I drive 75 miles round trip to work every day not to mention other driving. A gallon or two per day would help out in the long run. Bob



My point is that it might help one person but what happens when others decide "me too"? There is simply not enough cooking oil to make a noticeable difference and as soon as multiple people start asking for it a value will be placed and it will become priced accordingly, restaurants will not give away something they can sell and besides there is not nearly enough cooking oil produced to make any difference anyway. The people who write about this stuff make it sound good and try to make it sound as if the "technology" is somehow being suppressed but they totally overlook the supply vs demand part of it, simply put there is not nearly enough cooking oil to go around for the concept to work for more than a couple of users in any one area.

With plastics what has to be considered is all the energy that will be expended collecting, transporting, re-processing back into oil and then refining into a usable fuel. By the time all is done it is likely there will be little if any net gain but this is always conveniently overlooked when someone comes up with one of these astounding inventions, what good is it going to do to produce a barrel of oil from scrap plastic if it takes the equivalent of a barrel of oil to do it?

[Boz330]

I see what your point is and that would have to be determined. The fact is that usable oil is being turned into plastic and how much does it cost to collect transport and bury all of this stuff after it's initial use. Aluminum cans were throw away at one time now they are a viable income source for SSI recipients. Sure there aren't enough o help everyone but some return and less stuff in the landfills and along road sides seems to be a positive to me.
You want a waste, turning corn into alcohol for fuel is a waste. It takes more than one gallon of petro fuel to produce a gallon of alcohol and you can't even drink it. Not to mention the impact on food prices and availability.

Bob

[oldred]

I see what your point is and that would have to be determined. The fact is that usable oil is being turned into plastic and how much does it cost to collect transport and bury all of this stuff after it's initial use. Aluminum cans were throw away at one time now they are a viable income source for SSI recipients. Sure there aren't enough o help everyone but some return and less stuff in the landfills and along road sides seems to be a positive to me.
You want a waste, turning corn into alcohol for fuel is a waste. It takes more than one gallon of petro fuel to produce a gallon of alcohol and you can't even drink it. Not to mention the impact on food prices and availability.

Bob

Of course the best thing to do is not waste so much oil turning it into plastics in the first place but it's a profitable industry so waste or not it happens. As far as cooking oil think about it like this, a fueling station in a community receives it's fuel by the tanker truck load so multiply that by the number of stations in the area and then compare that amount to the relatively miniscule amount of waste cooking oil produced in the same community.

The thing is this is nothing new, it's been around for ages and it's no secret how to turn plastic or several other materials into a usable form of oil. The bottom line is it's just not feasible from a cost or efficiency standpoint (as of yet anyway) or it would have already been done, there are real engineers who have dealt with this and universities that do research on a constant basis. Where the profit is and the motivation for these "inventions" is to get sucke....errr,, investors to give these "snake oil salesmen" money for development or to sell equipment of questionable worth.



Here is the problem with any type of fuel replacements for oil. Your government don't want ANYONE stepping on the toes of big oil and they will tax any and all replacement fuel out of the market. They government wants people to believe they want replacements but the truth is big oil is king and it pads the pockets of DC.


While it's a commonly used excuse for why fantastic energy saving inventions are not available it's just plain nonsense to think there is a Government sponsored or supported conspiracy with the oil companies to suppress energy technology, believe what you like but there are no 200 MPG carburetors or perpetual motion machines being hidden from anyone. The fact is some of the best engineers in the world are working on an energy solution and if groundbreaking technology is developed we will know about!

[Bad Water Bill]

Obummer can scream about big oil profits but here in Chicagoland the ONLY one making big profits is the GOVERNMENT. The drilling companies have a ton of money invested as do the refineries,truckers and your local gas station.

Gas is $4.09 and about 25% of that is tax. The higher the price of fuel the more the gov makes and they do not have one thin dime invested and 0 at risk.

I drive an 81 VW DIESEL so I looked into using used cooking oil. There were so many records to keep, so that the gov made sure they got TAXES,I met federal rules and regs and local fire,safety,contamination,etc codes it would not be worth the headaches of watching over my shoulder 24/7/365 for BIG BROTHER.:evil:

[Swamp Man]

obummer can scream about big oil profits but here in chicagoland the only one making big profits is the government. The drilling companies have a ton of money invested as do the refineries,truckers and your local gas station.

Gas is $4.09 and about 25% of that is tax. The higher the price of fuel the more the gov makes and they do not have one thin dime invested and 0 at risk.

I drive an 81 vw diesel so i looked into using used cooking oil. There were so many records to keep, so that the gov made sure they got taxes,i met federal rules and regs and local fire,safety,contamination,etc codes it would not be worth the headaches of watching over my shoulder 24/7/365 for big brother.:evil:
bingo!!

[oldred]

BWB, I can certainly sympathize with your plight and while it may technically be the same in most places it can be done pretty much unregulated in others, I doubt I would run into much of a problem where I live. No one is denying cooking oil could be a viable alternative to diesel fuel and very economical for those who can get it and are willing to go to the effort to use it but it's the amount available in comparison to the vast amounts of diesel used everyday that's the real problem. While some want to claim the Government and big oil is standing in the way of things like waste cooking oil that's simply not true, if 100% of the waste cooking oil was utilized for fuel it would only account for a tiny fraction of a percent of total fuel used, again for each community fuel is delivered by the tanker load and in multiple loads but just how much waste cooking oil is produced when compared to that amount?

[Boz330]

I agree that the market is the best facility to determine usefulness of any invention or process which is why the government should be out of it all together. They are picking the winners and losers with our tax dollars and even then there are no viable solutions being offered but there are some people getting rich at tax payers expense.
If this process works at a reasonable cost then it will work out other wise it will join the Edsel in history.

Bob

[oldred]

They are picking the winners and losers with our tax dollars Bob

I call BS! Where did they pick any winners????? :veryconfu


:kidding:



Unfortunately the internet is full of amazing inventions and far more often than not they are just scam artists out to fleece would be investors/buyers. A viable way to produce cheap energy is a VERY lucrative goal that attracts heavy weights of the industry and big bucks and if/when a major break though occurs we will find out without having to hear about it through some little known web site. Recycling plastic into usable fuel would be a major accomplishment because of the massive amounts of waste plastic materials that would be available, someone who made a breaking discovery would have industry beating a path to his door so it's highly unlikely he would be hawking it on the internet.

[Smitty's Retired]

I agree Oldred, And another aspect is one that has already been stated. Big government and Big Oil, "DO NOT" want any alternative fuels unless they are in on it. There are already many alternative fuel methods out there. The problem is, the average small business does not have the funds and resources to invest and initiate them. Also remember, Big government, Big Oil, and their tools such as EPA, are all who you would have to gain their graces before you could even produce.

Case in point, for several years now, California and a few select transportation fleets have been testing the viability of hydrogen fuel cells, and hydrogen pump stations. The pump stations are converting sea water to hydrogen fuel. In 2009 MIT of Cambridge even invented a more up to date catalyst cell for these pump stations. It's already been proven to work, and automotive manufacturers have already produced prototypes. Yet, nothing has gone foward. We keep hearing it can't be done by governemnt scientist who say there are problems with hydrogen fuel cells freezing in cold climates, that the cost of setting up all the fuel stations would be cost prohibitive, the cost of the cars will be too high for the average consumer, etc, etc.

Reminds me of the old lie you constantly hear of why we are stiill relying on imported oil, because it will cost more for us to refine our oil. Uhhh, we are buying crude, and refining it anyway.

Another fuel alternative that several South American companies have produced for years, is gasoline that is produced from sugarcane and other plant products. Brazil has been independant from foreign oil for almost 40 years. It is also the worlds leader in Ethanol production and export of biofuel. At one time, the southern states of Lousiana, Mississippi, and Alabama were three of the largest producers of Sugarcane in the U.S. But there again, unless the government or big business is willing to invest into setting up production and refineries, it's not going to happen. If any individual or company happens upon a cheaper energy source, you can bet your bottom dollar it will be bought and kept by Big Oil, and not released until the time they deem appropriate.

[Blammer]

a good "lamp light" oil may be needed later....

[MtGun44]

When I worked for Union Carbide in the middle 1970s they had a medium sized
demonstration unit doing this back then.

Most of this stuff is NOT new, just repackaged and called new. The reason they all
fail is that they are not economical. With fracking producing large amounts of
gas (and it is barely started) and beginning to produce oil where it was so "tight"
as to be practically unrecoverable, the price of energy from hydrocarbon sources
will be dropping and this will make 'alternative energy' even LESS economical.

Recycle the plastic as plastic, not oil.

The idea that "big oil" is stopping development of alternate energy is totally at
odds with the facts. The oil companies have been flushing millions and millions
down the photovoltaic cells (electricity directly from the sun) for 30 yrs and are
finally giving up and selling out. The reality is they thought that alternate
energy was the wave of the future and got on board and LOST billions trying
to make it work. Pretty much the exact opposite of what most folks think -
most folks seem to like some silly conspiracy story how the 'big oil companies'
(actually not very big on a global scale, it turns out) are suppressing the
"200 mpg carburetor" or " 200 mpg fuel injection" or the "ultrasonic confabulator"
which is "well known" to be the reason for high oil prices. . . . . or something.

Bill

[DIRT Farmer]

Cooking oil is currently being bought by recyclers around here for blending into B-20(20% vegetable oil and 80% petroum) an easy way to acheive EPA madated emission standard.

[warboar_21]

Where he will be successful is in developing countries and small island nations where landfill space is limited. I do not believe this technology is difficult as the basic principle is simply generate enough heat to melt the plastic and turn them into a gas and simply cool them down. Drain the oil from the water since it floats on water and then you could further refine the oil for use in other applications. It could be used to supplement what they are already having to import.

In the US I could see other uses for this oil. Using it for non highway use such as heating, or other industrial use such as textiles or possibly used in asphalt production.
One draw back I could see would be regulations from the EPA. I am sure the air and other byproducts would have to be treated and knowing the EPA they wouldn't go for it.
As far as using it for highway use it would have to be taxed the same as gas or diesel. The Feds and State governments will not allow an alternative fuel to be used without getting their fair share. After all the fuel taxes are used to build new and maintain existing roadways, bridges, and transportation.

[Old Iron Sights]

Sounds like depolymerization. This has been going on for a while. Anything organic can be turned back into oil. A plant near Sedalia Missouri turns turkey carcasses from a processing plant into oil. Byproducts are carbon fertilizer, methane and water. The methane is recycled to generate the heat. A local guy where I live made small units to recycle tires back into oil. It's basically the same process that turned dinosaur poop into oil, just faster.

[oldred]

the basic principle is simply generate enough heat to melt the plastic and turn them into a gas and simply cool them down. Drain the oil from the water since it floats on water and then you could further refine the oil for use in other applications. It could be used to supplement what they are already having to import.


And where does this heat come from? That's the point I tried to make in an earlier post, the energy required to perform this trick is almost always equal to or exceeds the amount produced, what's the point of burning the equivalent of a barrel of oil to produce a barrel of oil? That's why this is not being done, not because industry has been waiting on someone to develop the technology. These "inventions" are about attracting investors not actually accomplishing their claimed purpose!

[oldred]

The idea that "big oil" is stopping development of alternate energy is totally at
odds with the facts. The oil companies have been flushing millions and millions
down the photovoltaic cells (electricity directly from the sun) for 30 yrs and are
finally giving up and selling out. The reality is they thought that alternate
energy was the wave of the future and got on board and LOST billions trying
to make it work. Pretty much the exact opposite of what most folks think -
most folks seem to like some silly conspiracy story how the 'big oil companies'
(actually not very big on a global scale, it turns out) are suppressing the
"200 mpg carburetor" or " 200 mpg fuel injection" or the "ultrasonic confabulator"
which is "well known" to be the reason for high oil prices. . . . . or something.

Bill

Here, here now! We wouldn't want to let facts and logic get in the way of a good conspiracy theory, would we?

[gbrown]

Sounds like depolymerization. This has been going on for a while. Anything organic can be turned back into oil. A plant near Sedalia Missouri turns turkey carcasses from a processing plant into oil. Byproducts are carbon fertilizer, methane and water. The methane is recycled to generate the heat. A local guy where I live made small units to recycle tires back into oil. It's basically the same process that turned dinosaur poop into oil, just faster.

Discover Magazine had a couple of articles on this back in 2003 and a couple of years later. Nothing new, really, as some have said. Here's a link to that article. Also, I'm with those that question the amount of energy needed to produce this stuff. Fusing atoms produces energy, but so far, they figure they would use 2 x times the energy produced to do so.

http://discovermagazine.com/2003/may/featoil

[Bad Water Bill]

IIRC It takes about 1 1/2 bbl of crude to produce a bbl of ETHANOL. Then adding it to your fuel tank and the mileage DROPS. Also the government has to SUBSIDIZE the manufacturers or they would go broke.

Someone sure is a great SNAKE OIL SALESMAN:evil:

Using that much corn drives up the price of corn on the WORLD market.

[oldred]

BWB, Ethanol is a joke for fuel for the very reasons you mention plus when it reaches the point we have to start converting our food into fuel for our cars we will be in big trouble. There are Ethanol plants that offset the loss, somewhat anyway, by using the by products of production as a cheap and very high protein cattle feed but it's still a waste of energy. It has developed into a big business however and I doubt we will see it go away anytime soon but during the oil shortage it kind of made sense because most of the energy to turn the corn and other bio-products into usable fuel came from coal and nuclear power, in a sense it indirectly provided us with a way to run our cars on coal and nuclear energy. When alternative energy sources are used as an energy source for conversion Ethanol MIGHT make sense if oil is in short supply because even with it costing more per mile driven it at least would be available and that was the thinking behind it when the idea first went mainstream.


This plastics thing reminds me of all the Ethanol producing contraptions that were pushed by the con-men a few years ago, slick presentations that made them look like cheap fuel producing marvels while skillfully overlooking the costs involved of obtaining and distilling the raw bio-products to produce the Ethanol. I remember one such con-man being interviewed on the local tv news here a few years ago (things such as this is why I no longer have any use for commercial tv), one line he said really struck a nerve, "people are going to save a lot of money and that's what this is all about" and the reporter just went right along with it! "people are going to save a lot of money", BS! By the time they acquire the bio-material and use all the electricity or other fuel to distill the Ethanol they would be very lucky to break even and that don't even take into account the time and labor involved!

[Old Iron Sights]

The plant in Sedalia (cwt) had pretty much been sued out of existence. It's being run now by another company. It had other issues though as well. the law suits as well as the cost of the turkey guts going up hurt profits. When turkey waste feed value went up, the profitability went down. The process had a higher return rate than ethanol but the source of the carbon is key. Treating sewage would be the best use since we pay to have that processed anyway.

[perotter]

Using that much corn drives up the price of corn on the WORLD market.

And that is a bad thing?

[perotter]

IIRC It takes about 1 1/2 bbl of crude to produce a bbl of ETHANOL. Then adding it to your fuel tank and the mileage DROPS. Also the government has to SUBSIDIZE the manufacturers or they would go broke.



You have documentation on these things? The 1 1/2 barrel of oil to produce one barrel of ethanol is BS.

[Bad Water Bill]

And that is a bad thing?

Only if you like to eat anything that has corn or as a byproduct of corn in it.

As with crude oil, corn is priced and sold at that world market price.

No I will not get into an argument with you. GOOD BY.

[oldred]

I can't say how much oil equivalent is actually used and several figures have been bandied around but it is quite high when everything is considered, a lot of energy offsets are often ignored when touting Ethanol as an energy source. Everything from farm tractor fuel to fertilizer production to transportation fuel and then the huge amount of energy required to distill the bio-mass into Ethanol all adds up to very high energy consumption by the time the Ethanol is ready to ship to the distributor. In the end I doubt if 1 1/2 actual barrels of oil would be consumed but it is very possible that the energy equivalent of that much oil would be used. Proponents of Ethanol can spin the numbers to make it look good from an energy efficiency standpoint while the opponents of Ethanol production can spin the figures to make it seem like a huge net loss of energy, the true figures probably are somewhere between but it's no secret that Ethanol is not in any way considered an efficient source of fuel. It's original goal, and still it's best argument today, is that it can be made using energy sources other than oil so in effect it could in an indirect way give us the ability to run our cars on nuclear, coal, wind, solar or hydro power by using these sources to produce the Ethanol.

[oldred]

Only if you like to eat anything that has corn or as a byproduct of corn in it.

As with crude oil, corn is priced and sold at that world market price.

No I will not get into an argument with you. GOOD BY.


Bill your point is a good one and is one of the arguments against massive Ethanol production, there really does come a point in the debate for Ethanol that ethics have to at least be considered. When we reach the point that someone somewhere in the world could go hungry because we choose to make fuel from food it becomes a serious question if it's the right thing to do or not, sure the argument can be made to "just grow more corn" but the fact remains that as demand rises so will prices and higher prices can mean people going hungry.

[Smitty's Retired]

You guys are still thinking inside the box. Lately people automatically think corn when they think of Ethanol production, mainly because that is the main product used in this country. There are many other products that could be used to produce ethanol. As stated previously, Brazil has been using sugarcane and is totally independent from foreign oil or fossil fuel oils. The only problem with Brazil is they at times have problems with keeping up with production and growth of sugarcane. As much sugarcane that could be produced in the southern states along with the research that has been done with the experience that has been gained useing castor beans, sunflower seeds, as well as other oil producing seeds, I feel there are plenty of other ways for production of ethanol as well as fuel oils from grain & seeds.

[oldred]

I think several times Bio-mass and bio-products were mentioned so we have been discussing other sources besides corn, it still remains however that corn is the primary Ethanol source here in the U.S. Sugar beets have been suggested and is a better source than sugar cane but most any bio-product can be used even grasses and weeds, switchgrass is being considered for example, but all these products require consuming copious amounts of energy to produce energy so it's a balancing act. Sugar cane and sugar beets are better sources than corn but also deplete the soil worse than corn, this in turn leads to heavier chemical use to grow the bio-mass which means more energy/resource consumption so energy for fertilizer production along with serious environmental pollution concerns must be factored in. All these things have to be considered and that's why we don't see more of this type of fuel availability, it can be done but in what amounts and at what cost? There is no Government or "big oil" conspiracy to hide a viable replacement for oil from us, if such oil substitute were to become available the Government would happily levy a tax and big oil would simply jump in and profit from it but no one would stand to gain by suppressing it.

[MtGun44]

Originally Posted by Bad Water Bill

Using that much corn drives up the price of corn on the WORLD market.

Perotter said: And that is a bad thing?
LOL!! :bigsmyl2:

It depends on whether you are buying corn or selling corn!! :bigsmyl2:


As a corn buyer (to eat), I am not too much in favor of higher corn prices, but
I can afford it if need be. Whole lot of folks around the world are on the edge
and cannot afford it.

Bill

[dakotashooter2]

One day we will be "mining" our old landfills.............

[blackthorn]

Originally Posted by Bad Water Bill

Using that much corn drives up the price of corn on the WORLD market.

Perotter said: And that is a bad thing?
LOL!! :bigsmyl2:

It depends on whether you are buying corn or selling corn!! :bigsmyl2:


As a corn buyer (to eat), I am not too much in favor of higher corn prices, but
I can afford it if need be. Whole lot of folks around the world are on the edge
and cannot afford it.

Bill

AND---when one price goes up eventually so does everything else!! SO---yes it is a bad thing!!!

[starmac]

When was this here oil shortage? Fuel can be produced from a lot of things, but so far nothing comes close to competing with plain old oil on any mass scale.

[oldred]

Oil shortage as in "holding back oil supplies in order to drive up prices" yes there was, an oil shortage as in "the world was using more oil than could be produced" no there wasn't! A real oil shortage WILL happen in the future but how soon depends on how fast the world consumes it, at our present rate of consumption a real shortage is not going to happen any time soon but our children or grandchildren could very well see it. Something has to give eventually because this country wastes fuel like there's no tomorrow but our habits will be forced to change, take a look around at all the traffic today. Those of us old enough to remember the 50's and 60's can see what a staggering difference there is in the numbers of cars on the road today than there was then and that kind of growth can not be sustained, we can not keep building more and bigger roads nor produce the oil based fuel to keep up with that kind of growth, it can continue for a while but it is not limitless and like it or not things will change.

[blackthorn]

Necessity is the father of invention! When the oil finally runs out----- What we see now is the infant "try-out" stage.

[Duckiller]

There is no oil shortage in this country only a government that won't let it be developed. We may run out of oil at some date in the future but not for the next 100 years. Anyone who believes that you can turn plastic bottles, used cooking oil or corn into fuel and use less fuel than what you are making belives in perpetual motion. Its not going to happen. Crude oil pumped from the ground is the cheapest energy we have and are going to have for quite a while.

[Bad Water Bill]

Lets not forget the inventiveness of the human brain.

Who in 1913 would have believed that any of us could sit in front of a piece of plastic and punch keys to communicate with JEFF IN NZ?


Who in 1913 would have believed that all of us could travel from coast to coast in 1/2 a day?


Who in 1913 would have believed that we could cook a meal without a fire?

We are living in a time that has never seen the amount of knowledge gained in one lifetime = everything EVER learned since the beginning of time X 3-4.