PDA

View Full Version : House Protection Firearm?



DonMountain
04-29-2013, 09:02 AM
I am a middle aged shooter of cast boolits in a few antique bolt action military rifles and handguns on our farm in Mid-Missouri here in the middle of the USA. Yesterday my wife's daughter and husband visited from a near by college town where he is attending school, and I offered to let him shoot one of my old rifles since he had never shot a gun but expressed an interest. He had recently acquired a small semi-auto 22 pistol from his mother when she died of cancer, which he never knew she had (it looks brand new). Anyway, to the question at hand, where they live in a college town, there has been a huge upswing in shootings and murders associated with the drug trade and robbery. And now this son-in-law and daughter are expressing an interest in acquiring a firearm of some sort to use as protection in their rented home. And they asked me what type of firearm would be most appropriate for this use. He had done some "research" on the internet and has come to the conclusion that a 12 gauge shotgun in appropriate form is the best thing for home defense. I told him that the 22 semi-auto would do the job just fine if his intention was to just scare away the intruder. His response was that it was too small to scare away these drugged up dopeheads and that they would continue to attack after being hit. So, what is an appropriate firearm and caliber for home defense use? Inexpensive of course? :veryconfu

Jason30-30
04-29-2013, 09:41 AM
Mossberg 20 gauge would be a good one.

44man
04-29-2013, 09:42 AM
Yes, a shotgun, any gauge. Just bird shot in a home.
A .22 will work but be careful with big guns. A .25, .380 or .38 is good too, just steer away from calibers like a .44 mag.
I have large revolvers but will grab my .410 in the house, better is a 20 ga or 12. Not a whole lot better because a .410 at close range is deadly.
My large revolvers will go through a BG, the whole house, the car in the drive or maybe a neighbors house.
Even a 1911 in the house might be too much.
Do damage to the BG and contain the shot.

cs86
04-29-2013, 09:47 AM
There is a lot of different opinions on this. I personally wouldn't go lower than a 9mm. I've heard stories that officers have went to 40s because the dopers that are really jacked up on something won't be stopped by a 9mm as easy. 38 special and up for wheel guns are great guns. In essence it's all in where you place the bullet, but if I was ever in the situation I don't think I would be thinking about aiming, just pointing and pulling the trigger.

I just had a friend go through a course for his personal carry permit. Make sure you have a reliable gun. Don't get the cheapest.

edit: I can't prove the statement. As mentioned its all hearsay. So I deleted that portion.
edit: 44man has good points too.

jmort
04-29-2013, 09:59 AM
.357 revolver as a nightstand gun and a shotgun is what I go with.

cbrick
04-29-2013, 10:00 AM
I keep a Taurus Judge loaded with 410 #4 shot close & handy. Not deadly at a distance and over penetration is not a concern & easy to control. Good sight alignment isn't needed in a panic situation and it's double action so might be a good option for someone with little shooting experience. Just don't expect DRT from 20 or 30 feet but a face (and eyes) full of #4 shot not to mention severely stained underwear will make them reconsider their career choice.

Rick

Bzcraig
04-29-2013, 10:04 AM
If the concern is doped up BG then my recommendation is 12ga with nothing smaller than #4 buckshot. Birdshot will cause extensive tissue damage but is not heavy enough to penetrate to vitals to stop an attack, even less so than the 22 mentioned. For the inexperienced shooter I do not recommend a handgun for self protection. But in any case awareness of where you are in your home must be of primary concern cause unlike the movies drywall and door jambs are not 'cover' just 'concealment' and whatever you settle on will pass through them, generally speaking.

country gent
04-29-2013, 10:06 AM
Basic considerations are. What can both handle and use effectively? What is appropriate for them in thier situation, IE just home protection from criminals, from animals, concealed carry outside the home, Tactics they are going to use, Amount of practice time they are going to spend beccoming proffient with the firearm? All these play a major role in the decission. A 12 gauge with large birdshot is very effective in the home ( most patterns in a home dont get over 2 1/2-3") but if she is petite and small it may be to much for her. Then a 20 gauge or evn 410 might be a better choice. A handgun is hard to shot and takes practice to get hits with. Most rifles are way over powered for this use and to much penetration. The best thing to do if possible is to put several difrent guns in thier hands from short barreled shotguns to handguns and see what fits them both and what they are effective with. Loud misses mean a sluc is traveling somewhere it probably shouldnt and scare the problem off to return in force. If you can borrow or ask another shooter to help Puta 12 gauge a 20 gauge 410 and several handguns ( both revolver and semi auto)in thier hands and let the results make the decission. Then buy ammo and practice practice practice.

pdawg_shooter
04-29-2013, 10:07 AM
1911A1. Load it with a 185gr HP at around 700fps. Works for me anyway.

44man
04-29-2013, 10:08 AM
I keep a Taurus Judge loaded with 410 #4 shot close & handy. Not deadly at a distance and over penetration is not a concern & easy to control. Good sight alignment isn't needed in a panic situation and it's double action so might be a good option for someone with little shooting experience. Just don't expect DRT from 20 or 30 feet but a face (and eyes) full of #4 shot not to mention severely stained underwear will make them reconsider their career choice.

Rick
Right on! The Judge would be super.

pdawg_shooter
04-29-2013, 10:10 AM
There is a lot of different opinions on this. I personally wouldn't go lower than a 9mm. I've heard stories that officers have went to 40s because the dopers that are really jacked up on something won't be stopped by a 9mm as easy. 38 special and up for wheel guns are great guns. In essence it's all in where you place the bullet, but if I was ever in the situation I don't think I would be thinking about aiming, just pointing and pulling the trigger.

I just had a friend go through a course for his personal carry permit. 2 main things stick in my mind that he said and what I've heard from others. Make sure you have a reliable gun. Don't get the cheapest. Next is always use factory ammo that is highly rated. Don't use reloads or things like zombie killers. It can be used against you in the court of law. Home defense loads are ok or +p loads.

edit: 44man has good points too.

Can you quote me one case where the fact a person use reloads went against him, or is even mentioned in trial?

jmort
04-29-2013, 10:25 AM
"Can you quote me one case where the fact a person use reloads went against him, or is even mentioned in trial?"

One of my pet peeves. No one in the history of the United States has ever been convicted of a crime for using reloads for self-defense. Now, we know for sure that using a 10 mm, getting advanced tactical training, and having a lot of guns and ammo were all used against Mr. Fish when he was convicted the first time.

rmatchell
04-29-2013, 10:42 AM
I keep a 357 for when im around. Trying to get my wife to try the mossberg 590 for when im working.

dverna
04-29-2013, 10:45 AM
The Taurus Judge is a poor choice as it will have too much recoil for the lady and she will be afraid to shoot it - practice with it.

For in a city, for use by "non-gun" people, a 12 or 20 gauge shotgun is hard to beat. DO NOT buy heavy loads. Stay with 2 3/4" shells and my choice is "low recoil" loads. Typical engagement distance will be under 10 yards. They need to understand there is no "pattern" at that range. Set up a target at 7-10 yards and show them!!! A shotgun is not a point and shoot weapon at close range. My gf thought she had a 3 foot pattern at 7 yards until we did some target work.

badboyparamedic
04-29-2013, 10:48 AM
Shotgun, whatever gauge they can handle , mine is loaded with the first round being birdshot, second round 00, third round slug, then start the rotation again. Also a GOOD light mounted on it helps.

Echo
04-29-2013, 10:51 AM
Just Wisdom on my part, but I am partial to the Ruger LCR for a nightside table gun. And in .22 Mag Rimfire for the ladies. Wall penetration is a concern, but it is light, light recoil, and deadly. In .38 Special, with shot loads, would be perfect, IM never-to-be HO.

ku4hx
04-29-2013, 11:00 AM
Don't use reloads or things like zombie killers. It can be used against you in the court of law.

If you're going to make those claims, please supply links to the actual court documents supporting your claims. I don't mean some gun rag writer's vested opinion, I mean real court documents with real names, real legal districts, real judges and real judgements.

Without that supporting evidence, all you're doing is spreading what people on computer forums call FUD ... Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

44man
04-29-2013, 11:06 AM
Nothing but nothing is as deadly as a face full of bird shot at close range.
There is not a more deadly gun when you need one.
The shotgun wins hands down.
You can dump a nine and never hit and if you do with a round or two, did you stop the creep?
Have you ever seen a hole from a shotgun at close range? You are talking feet before the shot spreads.
A shot from a .410 at 10 feet will make a huge hole through a BG's skull not a spray in the face.

cs86
04-29-2013, 11:19 AM
Can you quote me one case where the fact a person use reloads went against him, or is even mentioned in trial?

I'm sorry I don't have an actual case. This info came from an officer that was teaching the permit to carry class. I guess I will keep this to myself from now on and let others use there own judgment since I don't have the documents to prove it.

alrighty
04-29-2013, 11:19 AM
I am a firm believer in using your pistol to get to your shotgun or rifle.Some people are great with a handgun , most are not.If I had to be limited to one weapon and not conceal carry , it would be a shotgun.The shotgun would be a pump , 870 Remington or a Mossberg 500 or 590.It would be a 12 gauge preferably with a 18" barrel.It would have a shorter length of pull to fit anyone.it would be loaded with 00 buckshot , the newer 2 3/4" reduced recoil loads work well.I would equip it with a side saddle,ghost ring sight, and an extended magazine tube and most importantly I would learn how to use it.I know all these things can add up expense wise but you can do it a little at a time and have fun getting proficient with it and finding out what you feel comfortable with.

429421Cowboy
04-29-2013, 11:55 AM
In my home on the ranch where i live now, a 12 guage with no.4 buck or heavy lead no. 2 birdshot makes sense, because we are just as likely to need it for critters as we are anyone that would be dumb enough to break into a house full of people out here. In my opinion, OOB has too much penetration through the rice paper thick walls in my house, and you lose pattern too quickly because of so few pellets. No. 4 buck is about perfect for just about anything large you would need a shotgun for, and plenty of pattern density. At typical house ranges it is going to hit in a fist sized clump anyways. Large LEAD (ie not steel) birdshot from no. 4 shot on up, is lethal to beyond house distances, and as 44man said, nothing will give quicker kills or more devistating wounds. For those that say penetration is not there, i have seen deer killed at mid range with birdshot and more than one beef cow put down at close range, and trust me, bang-flop is all that happens. I have had this talk before, and i'm sure many will contest, but i have seen enough to know what works, and can honestly say at mid range, shot sizes from no. 4 buck to no. 4 birdshot are better killers than OOB. Flame on.
In Miss K's house, she keeps her youth stocked 870 20 guage which fits her well, and it has a 20" barrel on it which makes it dang short and handy in the house. When we get married and live together, we will just keep that out, since it fits her well, and is still very useable for me, rather than her try to use my shotgun.
I also think a shotgun should still be pared with a pistol, since there may be a situation where a long gun might not be manuvered well in tight spaces. I have been looking for a police trade in .38 or .357 for Miss K, something like a heavy barrel 4" M10 or M66 or such, which when loaded with light loads under a DEWC would provide low recoil and flash, yet still do some damage. The most important thing most people forget is how LOUD a gun going off in your house will be, and it might daze you as bad as the BG if you torch off some full house .357's for the first time. Another benifit of a revolver is that it can stay loaded in a drawer or easy entry safe without having to worry about mag springs staying compressed and weakening or any of the other problems an autoloader might have, especially if a non gun person just wants it to protect the home. Just a bunch of thoughts on the subject!

cbrick
04-29-2013, 11:56 AM
A shot from a .410 at 10 feet will make a huge hole through a BG's skull not a spray in the face.

Probably so from a shotgun but not from my 2" rifled Judge. At 10 feet it has about a 12" spread, at 20 feet it would about be the width of a doorway, how big is your bedroom or other rooms? Penetration at 20 feet is poor but up close and personal is a completely different matter. At 10 feet & under several pellets would penetrate both sides of a 1 gallon milk jug filled with water.

I bought it as a snake gun for the range and rattle snakes were best dispatched 10 feet and under, I now use it as a nightstand gun. I use it because I really, really don't want to kill anyone, not even a low life doper scum that would break into my house trying to feed his drug habit. That said I wouldn't loose a seconds sleep over knowing he would spend the rest of his life in complete darkness because #4 shot perforated his eyes, call it lead poisoning of the rearranged eye balls. Would give him plenty of time to consider his choice of occupation and just what really is the best drug out there, he could start with pain killers as I'm sure the hospital would give him some good stuff.

Rick

Jupiter7
04-29-2013, 11:58 AM
For those who don't or won't practice/train with and maintain a firearm, I leave any autoloader out of the equation. I became a pistol owner originally for defense after a robbery in my home. I also started worrying about my younger brothers in their 20's living alone, they were non shooters at the time. Malfunction/clearance during a situation would have meant sure disaster had a weapon been needed. Christmas of 2010, I bought them both a security guard trade-in S&W model 10-11 in 38spl. Gave them a box of hornady critical defense 110gr +p. I knew that no matter what happened, they had six for sure. The guns are easy to shoot, relaible and of known quality. The guns will outlast them and sure to stay in the family. I make the same reccomendation to anyone wanting a home defense gun that doesn't shoot for a hobby. I also keep one just like theirs for my wife at the house, she doesn't shoot but she knows how to point and pull, good enough.

mdi
04-29-2013, 12:03 PM
There is a lot of different opinions on this. I personally wouldn't go lower than a 9mm. I've heard stories that officers have went to 40s because the dopers that are really jacked up on something won't be stopped by a 9mm as easy. 38 special and up for wheel guns are great guns. In essence it's all in where you place the bullet, but if I was ever in the situation I don't think I would be thinking about aiming, just pointing and pulling the trigger.

I just had a friend go through a course for his personal carry permit. 2 main things stick in my mind that he said and what I've heard from others. Make sure you have a reliable gun. Don't get the cheapest. Next is always use factory ammo that is highly rated. Don't use reloads or things like zombie killers. It can be used against you in the court of law. Home defense loads are ok or +p loads.
edit: 44man has good points too.
No offense to the poster, but this is just hearsay. The only court action cited in reference to reloads for self defense is one Mas Ayoob testified in about determining if a shooting was suicide or murder; forensics couldn't tell how far gun was from victim because it was a handload.

I would consider the area your kin live in to determine a home defense weapon/ammo. I had a negligent discharge (yep a very stupid oops!) with a low powdered .44 Mag. the 250 gr LSWC went through one thicknesses of 1/2" exterior plywood, through one thickness of 3/8" siding, one thickness 1/2" drywall, one interior door, a decorative panel (1/4" panel), another 1/2' drywall, one wall panel, and ended up embedded in a 2x4 stud. The bullet was shot in a shed behind the house about 8' away, and ended up in the front room wall; the entire length of the house. If I had shot at an intruder and missed, the slug would definitely leave my dwelling and enter a neighbors with enough power left to do some real damage/harm to anybody it encountered. My house gun is a .38 Special with 150 gr. wadcutter over a stiff load of W231. Large meplate for tissue damage and little over penetration. I'd think in a close neighbor situation a 3 or 4 inch .38 with either light/fast hollow points or wadcutters, and practice would be fine for a new shooter...

blackthorn
04-29-2013, 12:07 PM
Shotgun wins hands down!! Aim for center of mass (no head shots). Most folks, such as those under disscussion here, do not have the experience/practice needed for selective targeting. Center mass with any shotgun at short range is going to inflict a fatal wound (less chance of being sued). One other thing they had better come to terms with is whether or not they are actually prepared to kill!!

runfiverun
04-29-2013, 12:18 PM
for non gun shooters and new owners the shotgun is going to be their best option.
are they gonna remember to pump the thing when a second shot is needed? [maybe]
or switch to the second trigger? [doubtful]
are they are gonna lock up and just keep on pulling the trigger....guaranteed.

dakotashooter2
04-29-2013, 12:27 PM
While over penetration can be an issue a good look at the layout of your home can determine if it would be a problem. Over penetration can also be reduced if you reload and utilizer reduced power loads IN the home. 38 sp, 44 sp, or 45 colt cowboy loads and the likes can reduce the problem yet still offer a large bullet with some stopping power. You can also load 2 and sometimes 3 roundballs into the above calibers for a more home freindly load. I'd be hesitant to rely on something less than 38 cal on a doped up bad guy.

Wayne Smith
04-29-2013, 12:34 PM
Too many assumptions here about the capabilities of a woman. My sister-in-law is 5'2" and shoots a 44Mag! I'd choose a coach gun in either 12 or 20ga. Lots of women shooting skeet with 12's. Let her try and see what she likes.

John Allen
04-29-2013, 12:35 PM
A K frame Smith in 357 magnum is my choice. If you have to shoot someone I do not want them getting up.

jonp
04-29-2013, 12:59 PM
Mossberg 20 gauge would be a good one.

I agree. For someone not that familiar with guns a 20gauge for home defense will have less recoil and the range you are using it for will be as good ad a 12gauge. I'd suggest a short barrel for indoor use and tp keep it loaded without one in the chamber for safety. Racking the slide should penetrate even the most drug addled mind in a way pointing a pistol might not

pdawg_shooter
04-29-2013, 01:07 PM
45 AUTO! Because having to shoot someone twice is just silly!

jonp
04-29-2013, 01:10 PM
If insistant on a pistol and not putting in lots of range time forget semi auto's a buy a good double action pistol like a ruger sp or gp in .357. Practice some with .38 and keep loaded with .357. I have a number of firearms like everyone here but have a Blackhawk .357 next to my bed.

Vindicated
04-29-2013, 01:45 PM
If it was just me, I'd buy a 12g shotgun. However thinking my sister and girlfriend may need to use it as well and wouldn't take the time to learn, my goal was to find a weapon system that made big holes, low recoil, and was easy to aim. I settled on a carbine rifle chambered in 45acp. Serves my needs prefect. Although once I get more money I'm going to get a 12g and a pistol.

popper
04-29-2013, 02:20 PM
For their situation, 410 Judge, if they can handle it. Why? Saw a program where middle aged gal was attacked in her home. She had a 38. Emptied it, reloaded and chased the perp down the street, still shooting. If IIRC, NO hits. Yes, this one took flight but that is not guaranteed. Additionally, bird shot holes in SR are easier to patch.

DonMountain
04-29-2013, 02:41 PM
Well, this thread sure hit a point of interest. Both of them (my wife's daughter and her husband) are pretty sizable and not lightweights, so I believe both of them could easily handle a shotgun. My son-in-law and I shot maybe a hundred rounds of RCBS 30-180-sp gc boolits from an old military 7.62 NATO with varying loads of H4895 experimental rounds on Sunday. And he enjoyed the shooting very much. And I promised that next time we would bring out the 12 gauge gun and shoot some trap with the clay pigeon thrower they gave me this past Christmas. I am set up for reloading 12 gauge shells also. So if they bought a 12 gauge I can reload their practice rounds for them. We also have a Remington 870 pump gun in the family so they can try that out too. Plus the lead boolits from a 38 S&W and a 45 ACP revolver. I would think that the maneuverability of a handgun would be more useful inside a residence where they are most likely to come into contact with an intruder. I think if I had to grab a gun and go chase an intruder it would be the simplest gun to shoot. And that would me my 1917 S&W in 45 ACP. Shooting 300 grain gas checked cast lead boolits over 7.0 grains of Blue Dot. An intruder could hear the warning of the hammer cocking, or you could just double action shoot it without messing with a safety. But that was my own opinion so I wanted to hear what others have experence or opinions with. Then I will have the children read this entire subject so they can form their own, unbiased opinions. And I can just go back to teaching them how to shoot lead boolits!

Smoke4320
04-29-2013, 02:47 PM
410 Shotgun and buckshot for the weaker/skiddist folks , a judge for those who can handle it

hickfu
04-29-2013, 02:53 PM
I have 2 45 Autos and a double barreled 12 gauge for my home defense.... It just depends on where I am as to what I use. And just in case... I use only factory rounds in them.

pdawg shooter "45 AUTO! Because having to shoot someone twice is just silly! "
I have that sticker on my car!!

Doc

Silverboolit
04-29-2013, 03:33 PM
I have a Hi Point 4595 carbine for home defense. My wife can handle it well, it has 9 shots, and is just 'handy.' Also, it is not expensive. IF you have a shooting incident, the police will surely take the wepon involved and you may not get it back quickly from them. I use a 230 gr. lead roundnose and it feeds has no problems with functioning.

xacex
04-29-2013, 03:33 PM
That anyone would suggest a 12 gauge shotgun for a city dweller for self defense is asinine. The weight of the projectile (or projectiles) has to overcome a lot of resistance to fully stop. Which means in most cases buckshot or slugs that do not hit a perp would go through your walls, out your house, and into a neighbors house. Solid lead projectiles with a lot of antimony does not deform easy, and has to hit something harder that it before it breaks up. Bird-shot helps in this regard, but can be non-lethal unless used in very short range.
I use, and would recommend an AR15 rifle, or what I prefer and use is an AR15 pistol loaded with a ballistic tip, or varmint bullet.Do not use a FMJ bullet for home defense! East to use, low recoil, and the bullets will not penetrate any further than two sheets of Sheetrock before breaking apart. On a intruder bullet placement is not critical because the bullets will take off arms, half a leg, or turn a body cavity to jello with one shot at any range that would be experienced in a home. Collateral damage is limited due to the bullet breaking up, and you have multiple opportunity's to nail one, or multiple intruders. There is a reason law enforcement went to AR15's, and retired the Remington shotgun in many city's.
If the AR is not an option because of cost, or laws's in your city the 45acp is hard to beat. Again do not use FMJ bullets. The 45acp will go through a room and walls more than a 5.56 will, but the use of a good,wide hollow-point will limit penetration and damage outside of your home. Be comfortable with whatever choice you make, and practice with it frequently.

vmathias
04-29-2013, 03:40 PM
A 12 or 20 gauge would be ideal but with one drawback. If one is surprised in their sleep they would be difficult to wield. My personal opinion would be a Glock compact in 40 caliber. No safety's to fuss with and they are easy to use with exceptional reliability.

jonp
04-29-2013, 03:47 PM
That anyone would suggest a 12 gauge shotgun for a city dweller for self defense is asinine. The weight of the projectile (or projectiles) has to overcome a lot of resistance to fully stop. Which means in most cases buckshot or slugs that do not hit a perp would go through your walls, out your house, and into a neighbors house. Solid lead projectiles with a lot of antimony does not deform easy, and has to hit something harder that it before it breaks up. Bird-shot helps in this regard, but can be non-lethal unless used in very short range.
I use, and would recommend an AR15 rifle, or what I prefer and use is an AR15 pistol loaded with a ballistic tip, or varmint bullet.Do not use a FMJ bullet for home defense! East to use, low recoil, and the bullets will not penetrate any further than two sheets of Sheetrock before breaking apart. On a intruder bullet placement is not critical because the bullets will take off arms, half a leg, or turn a body cavity to jello with one shot at any range that would be experienced in a home. Collateral damage is limited due to the bullet breaking up, and you have multiple opportunity's to nail one, or multiple intruders. There is a reason law enforcement went to AR15's, and retired the Remington shotgun in many city's.
If the AR is not an option because of cost, or laws's in your city the 45acp is hard to beat. Again do not use FMJ bullets. The 45acp will go through a room and walls more than a 5.56 will, but the use of a good,wide hollow-point will limit penetration and damage outside of your home. Be comfortable with whatever choice you make, and practice with it frequently.
Ok, are you actually saying an ar15 will penetrate less than birdshot? And although birdshot is not lethal except at close range how big is your house and is the purpose to stop the threat which a load of birdshot in the abdoman at house range will do or kill everything that moves (which I have no problem with in a home invasion btw). I just dont agree with your post

H.Callahan
04-29-2013, 03:55 PM
I fall in the shotgun camp as well. A good, short barreled shotgun is one of the best close range combat weapons ever devised. Remember, there is a reason that many police departments issue shotguns to their officers and have shotgun mounts in their squad cars.

As to whether a new shooter is going to remember to pump/switch triggers or lock up and continue to pull the trigger, it is my contention that if the shooter is not willing to commit a little time and effort to learning how to use and get comfortable with whatever they choose, they would probably be better served with a panic room and a cell phone and hope for the best.

sirgknight
04-29-2013, 04:01 PM
I keep a Taurus Judge loaded with 410 #4 shot close & handy. Not deadly at a distance and over penetration is not a concern & easy to control. Good sight alignment isn't needed in a panic situation and it's double action so might be a good option for someone with little shooting experience. Just don't expect DRT from 20 or 30 feet but a face (and eyes) full of #4 shot not to mention severely stained underwear will make them reconsider their career choice.

Rick

I have a Judge "loaded" with lead BB's which sits on my nightstand. I also have an unloaded double barrel 12 ga. shotgun with 19 5/8" barrel (kinda like a coach gun, very easy access and handling). The shotgun is right beside my bed and is hidden behind the window curtains. The ammo for the shotgun sits right behind my alarm clock and consists of #4 buckshot. Each firearm/ammo is readily available. These should handle anything inside the home.

fecmech
04-29-2013, 04:15 PM
I think a shotgun with bird shot is a good choice for inside the modern home particularly if you live among other homes. As far as pump guns are concerned without training or a fair amount of use I'd bet only 1 shot gets fired in a stress situation. I base that on many instances of people using pump guns on sporting clays ranges where there are repeated instances of the same person forgetting to pump for the second shot.

Rick Hodges
04-29-2013, 04:56 PM
Well, I would recommend a pump action 12 ga. shotgun loaded with #4 buckshot. It is easy to handle, very effective and not overly penetrative. There is a reason it is the first choice of urban police departments. Why the pump? There is nothing so chilling nor as universally recognized as the sound of a 12ga. pump being readied for action. If that sound doesn't send the miscreant running, you have a serious problem on your hands and the 12 ga. is more than able to take care of things.

H.Callahan
04-29-2013, 05:06 PM
There is nothing so chilling nor as universally recognized as the sound of a 12ga. pump being readied for action.
Reminds me of my initial firearms instructor when I took basic LEO training. He always said that whenever possible, take the shotgun - "It doesn't matter what language the perp speaks -- EVERONE speaks 12 gauge pump!"

44man
04-29-2013, 05:20 PM
My daughter is skinny and you do not want to shoot against her with any gun. She shot the highest score ever shot in the Marine corp. A 12 ga is a toy and she shot a bottle at 100 yards with a flint lock off hand.
Woman are good. Just take them to practice and learn the guns. They are tough.
If I ever needed to shoot someone in my home, they better be dead. I do not want a law suit from a creep.
I live with a lot of distance between houses, no worry with what I shoot. Some live just feet away from neighbors or others walking the street.
Yet my guns on the average are too big and I worry about my family in other parts of the house.
I just have to stay with a shotgun. No buckshot or slugs in the house.

Fishman
04-29-2013, 05:24 PM
That anyone would suggest a 12 gauge shotgun for a city dweller for self defense is asinine. The weight of the projectile (or projectiles) has to overcome a lot of resistance to fully stop. Which means in most cases buckshot or slugs that do not hit a perp would go through your walls, out your house, and into a neighbors house. Solid lead projectiles with a lot of antimony does not deform easy, and has to hit something harder that it before it breaks up. Bird-shot helps in this regard, but can be non-lethal unless used in very short range.
I use, and would recommend an AR15 rifle, or what I prefer and use is an AR15 pistol loaded with a ballistic tip, or varmint bullet.Do not use a FMJ bullet for home defense! East to use, low recoil, and the bullets will not penetrate any further than two sheets of Sheetrock before breaking apart. On a intruder bullet placement is not critical because the bullets will take off arms, half a leg, or turn a body cavity to jello with one shot at any range that would be experienced in a home. Collateral damage is limited due to the bullet breaking up, and you have multiple opportunity's to nail one, or multiple intruders. There is a reason law enforcement went to AR15's, and retired the Remington shotgun in many city's.
If the AR is not an option because of cost, or laws's in your city the 45acp is hard to beat. Again do not use FMJ bullets. The 45acp will go through a room and walls more than a 5.56 will, but the use of a good,wide hollow-point will limit penetration and damage outside of your home. Be comfortable with whatever choice you make, and practice with it frequently.

I just can't agree with most of this post. A load of #4's won't make it out of the house, and the bad guy will be dead. Some folks also have to worry about other family members in the house. I sure wouldn't want to cut loose with an AR15 if every family member wasn't in the same room with me.

To the OP, there would be few reasons for your wife's daughter and husband to chase after a criminal. I would think that covering the point of entry for the bad guy while the other called 911 would be the best course of action. Hopefully that would be the front door, but if that barrier is down, the bedroom door should be closed and locked too.

I'll also point out that it isn't an "either or" kind of thing. They already have one defensive firearm, and obtaining another one or two with different capabilities is wise. The .22 might be just the ticket in the recliner armrest, while the shotgun could be safely laying under the bed. Of course, they will need to secure these if small children are in the home or visiting.

xacex
04-29-2013, 05:27 PM
Ok, are you actually saying an ar15 will penetrate less than birdshot? And although birdshot is not lethal except at close range how big is your house and is the purpose to stop the threat which a load of birdshot in the abdoman at house range will do or kill everything that moves (which I have no problem with in a home invasion btw). I just dont agree with your post

As I stated, If you are using a 12 gauge in a home the birdshot is your best choice to reduce collateral damage, but those little number 7 shot are less than lethal at ranges as long as a hallway if the perp is wearing anything other than a t shirt. Not to mention the recoil difference between an AR 15 and a 12g shotgun. Have your wife go out and shoot thirty rounds of each and have her tell you which one she preferred. There is also the argument of length, and ability to wield the weopon. Shotguns need 18 inch barrels to be legal, AR15 rifles 16", and pistols go down to 7.5". Add a collapsible stock to the rifle, and you have a short weapon that cannot be matched by a 12 gauge shotgun. But hey, you can take Biden's advice and tap two off your balcony and the crooks will run away...right.

jmort
04-29-2013, 05:36 PM
Once again, two old canards come out, don't use reloads, and use birdshot. The later is not a good idea. #4 buckshot is the minimum. If you have no lines of fire, then I guess birdshot is better than nothing. Here is the evidence. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/02/robert-farago/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/

xacex
04-29-2013, 05:38 PM
I just can't agree with most of this post. A load of #4's won't make it out of the house, and the bad guy will be dead. Some folks also have to worry about other family members in the house. I sure wouldn't want to cut loose with an AR15 if every family member wasn't in the same room with me.

To the OP, there would be few reasons for your wife's daughter and husband to chase after a criminal. I would think that covering the point of entry for the bad guy while the other called 911 would be the best course of action. Hopefully that would be the front door, but if that barrier is down, the bedroom door should be closed and locked too.

I'll also point out that it isn't an "either or" kind of thing. They already have one defensive firearm, and obtaining another one or two with different capabilities is wise. The .22 might be just the ticket in the recliner armrest, while the shotgun could be safely laying under the bed. Of course, they will need to secure these if small children are in the home or visiting.

If using FMJ bullets I would agree, but the ballistic tip varmint bullets we have today will not penetrate two sheets of Sheetrock WITHOUT breaking apart. Your #4 will stay in a clump well past the sheetrock, and still have the mass, and velocity to kill someone in another room.
Try this as an experiment to understand what I am talking about. Take some Sheetrock, and some 2x4's Make a box just like a section of wall, place a water jug, or watermelon ect. 5 feet behind that wall and see which one is destroyed from a 10 food distance. Use #4 buck, 00 buck, bird-shot, and slugs. Then go get you some or load up some varmint 223 rounds with ballistic tips. I didn't believe this myself until I tried it, and now my shotgun is tucked in the safe unless things get real bad, and my family is behind me.

cbrick
04-29-2013, 05:55 PM
That anyone would suggest a 12 gauge shotgun for a city dweller for self defense is asinine. I use, and would recommend an AR15 rifle, or what I prefer and use is an AR15 pistol loaded with a ballistic tip, or varmint bullet. Do not use a FMJ bullet for home defense! East to use, low recoil, and the bullets will not penetrate any further than two sheets of Sheetrock before breaking apart. On a intruder bullet placement is not critical because the bullets will take off arms, half a leg, or turn a body cavity to jello with one shot at any range that would be experienced in a home. Collateral damage is limited due to the bullet breaking up,

Must be an awful lot of us here that are just completely asinine then huh. Two sheets of sheetrock huh, newsflash . . . One of the criteria in the military selecting the 223 was helmet penetration . . . At 500 meters! Now let's see, will only penetrate two sheets of sheetrock but will take off arms. Do I have that right? I think somebody has been reading way too many black gun magazines.


I have a Judge "loaded" with lead BB's which sits on my nightstand. I also have an unloaded double barrel 12 ga. shotgun with 19 5/8" barrel (kinda like a coach gun, very easy access and handling). The shotgun is right beside my bed and is hidden behind the window curtains. The ammo for the shotgun sits right behind my alarm clock and consists of #4 buckshot. Each firearm/ammo is readily available. These should handle anything inside the home.

The judge isn't the only firearm at hand but would probably, most likely, ok will be the first one I grab for in home close range defense.

Rick

Tazman1602
04-29-2013, 06:04 PM
What Rick said. I wouldn't unleash my AR in the house unless all family was in the same room.

18" Mossberg stuffed with even 8 shot will cut an intruder in half. Have two, one for wife and one for me..

Art

xacex
04-29-2013, 06:04 PM
Must be an awful lot of us here that are just completely asinine then huh. Two sheets of sheetrock huh, newsflash . . . One of the criteria in the military selecting the 223 was helmet penetration . . . At 500 meters! Now let's see, will only penetrate two sheets of sheetrock but will take off arms. Do I have that right? I think somebody has been reading way too many black gun magazines.

Rick
I am clearly not talking about military ball ammo. Read on. Apparently we have a bunch of fuds who haven't handled a modern weapon with modern varmint bullets that the military does not use. sorry Rick, I don't have any of the gun magazines you mention, only American Hunter.

jonp
04-29-2013, 06:05 PM
As I stated, If you are using a 12 gauge in a home the birdshot is your best choice to reduce collateral damage, but those little number 7 shot are less than lethal at ranges as long as a hallway if the perp is wearing anything other than a t shirt. Not to mention the recoil difference between an AR 15 and a 12g shotgun. Have your wife go out and shoot thirty rounds of each and have her tell you which one she preferred. There is also the argument of length, and ability to wield the weopon. Shotguns need 18 inch barrels to be legal, AR15 rifles 16", and pistols go down to 7.5". Add a collapsible stock to the rifle, and you have a short weapon that cannot be matched by a 12 gauge shotgun. But hey, you can take Biden's advice and tap two off your balcony and the crooks will run away...right.
I'm taking Bidens advice and letting off rounds from a double into the night to scare intruders away. Legal is 18in barrel and 26in overall length. That is fine. I am still sticking to the shotgun.
Massod Ayoob has a nice piece here http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob120.html and the last picture that he is in is a shotgun I have and I can attest that it is a beautiful shotgun.

dudel
04-29-2013, 06:14 PM
Can you quote me one case where the fact a person use reloads went against him, or is even mentioned in trial?

How about four?

http://www.gunforums.net/forums/general-gun-talk/5514-cases-where-handloads-caused-problems-court-mas-ayoob.html

They resulted in aquitals (and a bankruptcy), but took several years from the defendants and their family's lives. I save enough with reloads, that I can certainly afford a few boxes of store bought ammo a year. Everyone needs to come to their own conclusion, but to say that reloads have NEVER been an issue would seem to be wrong.

gareth96
04-29-2013, 06:23 PM
Assuming my Belgian doesn't get em first.... 12 Ga, 00 Buck.. with 45 acp bug....

dudel
04-29-2013, 06:25 PM
I am clearly not talking about military ball ammo. Read on. Apparently we have a bunch of fuds who haven't handled a modern weapon with modern varmint bullets that the military does not use. sorry Rick, I don't have any of the gun magazines you mention, only American Hunter.

I think what you might be looking for is Shooting Illustrated (NRA magazine) May 2013 issue. Page 83. Hornady TAP FPD 60 gr VMAX .223 did not penetrate. Surprised me. Big difference between a fmj and a vmax. It's on the newsstand now. Should be able to just read it there, but the whole story on over penetration is pretty interesting.

cbrick
04-29-2013, 06:28 PM
First we are asinine and now we are fuds. Hhmmm . . . What exactly is a fud? Dunno, maybe that's a compliment. :mrgreen:

I suggest you set up barriers of plywood (much more dense than sheetrock) and see just what your varmint bullets will penetrate. I think you will be shocked. :shock:

Yep, fired many modern "firearms" (don't own any weapons but have many firearms) but never had the desire to own any, just not a fan of spray & pray.

Rick

xacex
04-29-2013, 06:35 PM
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm
Here is an example of what each will do including frangible bullets for an AR which would penetrate the same or more than varmint bullets, buck shot, birdshot, and a 30 carbine. This also shows why someone would not use a FMJ, or ball ammo inside a home.
Penetration from energy after hitting a wall.
http://i48.tinypic.com/2100in6.jpg

Use what you want, but I have done my own tests on this and am done with all of the anti black rifle hype that says they are useless for home defense. I would rather be hit with a fragment of a jacket, then several .22 cal, or .30 cal balls on the other side of the wall if I had the house next to yours.

cs86
04-29-2013, 06:39 PM
How about four?

http://www.gunforums.net/forums/gene...mas-ayoob.html

They resulted in aquitals (and a bankruptcy), but took several years from the defendants and their family's lives. I save enough with reloads, that I can certainly afford a few boxes of store bought ammo a year. Everyone needs to come to their own conclusion, but to say that reloads have NEVER been an issue would seem to be wrong.

Thanks for posting that as some proof to my original statement. These would be the situations that I want to avoid if I ever had to be in a situation. I wish they had more classes that people could take that would explain more of what happens after you have to defend yourself or others, and how each scenario is different. Things that can help and hurt you. I think it would help a person think a lot harder before engaging depending on the situation.

xacex
04-29-2013, 06:40 PM
I think what you might be looking for is Shooting Illustrated (NRA magazine) May 2013 issue. Page 83. Hornady TAP FPD 60 gr VMAX .223 did not penetrate. Surprised me. Big difference between a fmj and a vmax. It's on the newsstand now. Should be able to just read it there, but the whole story on over penetration is pretty interesting.

Exactly what I am talking about. I load with the 55 grain v-max myself, but the hornady TAP is a good alternative if you do not want reloaded ammunition.

jmort
04-29-2013, 06:42 PM
"These would be the situations that I want to avoid if I ever had to be in a situation."

Yes like the one where the guy murdered his girlfriend. I have that on my checklist, "don't murder anyone with a reload."

There is no case in the history of the United States where someone was convicted of a crime for using reloads in self-defense. That is a fact beyond dispute. None of the cases in question involve self-defense by a citizen, and the case most cited involved a guy killing his girlfriend. He said she killed herself. No self-defense. Again, anyone using a 10 mm should beware, as Mr. Fish was found guilty, in his first trial, according to the jury, whose opinion counts most, for using a 10 mm. He was also convicted in part, based on evidence that he had advanced firearms training and had a lot of guns and ammo. So here we have an actual conviction, but you never hear any one of the "no reload" crowd say anything about 10 mm handguns, advanced firearms training, or having lots of guns and ammo, which I think are are all good things, but which were used as evidence in support of the conviction. Let's keep it real. If you are scared, use the exact same gun and ammunition that the local LEOs use, and when they change, you change.

Wayne Smith
04-29-2013, 06:58 PM
All of this intense discussion completely depends on where they live and what the barriers are between residences. Here houses are close together but brick exteriors. In an apartment with little but sheetrock between I would limit myself to birdshot, simply because the longest shot will be close. In my house buckshot because of the brick exterior and angles down the stairs. In a row house with significant barriers between houses I would go with the buckshot. In any case I'm sticking with my recommendation of a short double barrel.

I would rather be effective than frightening, simply because of the chances the perp is on drugs. I would rather a shotgun because pistols require practice and concentration at the time of shooting. Yes, managing a double when awoken is a challenge, but hitting a perp with a pistol under the same conditions is a greater challenge. If the perp is in the house I will choose effectiveness every time.

The choice of a shotgun over a pistol will continue to be true unless one practices enough that shooting a pistol becomes automatic habit. This is unlikely for the common person. One has to be as dedicated as we are for this to happen. Will they practice that much??

dudel
04-29-2013, 07:06 PM
"These would be the situations that I want to avoid if I ever had to be in a situation."

Yes like the one where the guy murdered his girlfriend. I have that on my checklist, "don't murder anyone with a reload."

There is no case in the history of the United States where someone was convicted of a crime for using reloads in self-defense. That is a fact beyond dispute. None of the cases in question involve self-defense by a citizen, and the case most cited involved a guy killing his girlfriend. He said she killed herself. No self-defense. Again, anyone using a 10 mm should beware, as Mr. Fish was found guilty, in his first trial, according to the jury, whose opinion counts most, for using a 10 mm. He was also convicted in part, based on evidence that he had advanced firearms training and had a lot of guns and ammo. So here we have an actual conviction, but you never hear any one of the "no reload" crowd say anything about 10 mm handguns, advanced firearms training, or having lots of guns and ammo, which I think are are all good things, but which were used as evidence in support of the conviction. Let's keep it real. If you are scared, use the exact same gun and ammunition that the local LEOs use, and when they change, you change.

Sorry, but your quote was:
"Can you quote me one case where the fact a person use reloads went against him, or is even mentioned in trial?"

There are four where it was mentioned. No fair trying to move the goal posts. Everyone got aquitted, but look at the cost. All to save $30? No thanks, not me. Everyone makes their call, and lives with the results.

jmort
04-29-2013, 07:55 PM
"Everyone got acquitted"

Except the guy who murdered his girlfriend. Otherwise I agree, point well taken. As you noted, we all get to decide what to use. I like reloads, that is what I shoot.

gwpercle
04-29-2013, 08:23 PM
On the night stand is a model 58 smith and wesson 41 magnum. Proped up against the wall between night stand and bed is a 12 gauge pump, plug removed so it will hold 5 shells, and barrel sawed off to 18 inches. It is now cylinder bore (choke is gone). Also got boxes of 00 and#4, along with slugs and 5,6,71/2 bird shot (leftovers from hunting) . This should take care of most anything that comes up. I sleep well at night.

If you look at my avatar that's my model 58 with Ahrend's Retro Combat grips...it shoots nice tight groups with cast semi-wadcutters.

Gary

glw
04-29-2013, 09:27 PM
In my thinking this is a very personal decision. Above all, the person needs to be comfortable with the gun, confident in using it, and able to use it. I think it is important for them to try different guns and see what works for them.

One thing that hasn't been brought up is that if the house has tight corners, a shotgun may not be very usable. In such a case a pistol might be a better choice. Also, it might be necessary to hold a flashlight or cell phone at the same time as the gun--is it possible to do this while holding a shotgun? I would rather use a handgun in such a situation, as it would be much easier to hold the gun with one hand than it would to hold a shotgun. Another thing to consider is where the gun will be kept. Will it be easier to hide/store a handgun closer to where it can be accessed than it would to hide/store a shotgun? A gun that cannot be accessed quickly is useless.

If these people are new to shooting, I think they need to try different guns first before settling on something. They might be surprised at what they feel comfortable using.

Just my thoughts on the matter, for whatever they are worth.

Glenn

Bzcraig
04-29-2013, 11:24 PM
My closing thoughts: gun owners are passionate about their pursuits -excellent! We are as opinionated as we are different-excellent! Responsible gun ownership is not being able to buy a gun and ammo, that is the easy part. It is putting in the time to be proficient with what you choose, so choose wisely! Choose what you will practice with, then practice. How you respond under duress is determined by how well you have trained not by how you THINK you will respond. I do carry with reloads, and home defense weapons have reloads. I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that my handloads are not near as "deadly" as full power factory loads, including what our LEO's use and I always have extra loads around which can be tested later if necessary as well as accurate documentation of when I loaded a batch.

I hope the OP was not discouraged by the passionate responses. I can say every time I have read threads on this same topic, it always follows the same progression with the same passion.

Mk42gunner
04-30-2013, 01:17 AM
I am a middle aged shooter of cast boolits in a few antique bolt action military rifles and handguns on our farm in Mid-Missouri here in the middle of the USA. Yesterday my wife's daughter and husband visited from a near by college town where he is attending school, and I offered to let him shoot one of my old rifles since he had never shot a gun but expressed an interest. He had recently acquired a small semi-auto 22 pistol from his mother when she died of cancer, which he never knew she had (it looks brand new). Anyway, to the question at hand, where they live in a college town, there has been a huge upswing in shootings and murders associated with the drug trade and robbery. And now this son-in-law and daughter are expressing an interest in acquiring a firearm of some sort to use as protection in their rented home. And they asked me what type of firearm would be most appropriate for this use. He had done some "research" on the internet and has come to the conclusion that a 12 gauge shotgun in appropriate form is the best thing for home defense. I told him that the 22 semi-auto would do the job just fine if his intention was to just scare away the intruder. His response was that it was too small to scare away these drugged up dopeheads and that they would continue to attack after being hit. So, what is an appropriate firearm and caliber for home defense use? Inexpensive of course? :veryconfu

Don,

In this situation, inexperienced shooters, you want something that is easily handled, easy to shoot, and not a whole lot of recoil so they don't get discouraged or scared of the gun while practicing.

Handguns take a lot of training/ practice to control a one in a caliber that is suitlble for serious social occasions.

Shotguns work, except a 12 ga can have significant recoil, and even wosre, muzzle blast on the typical short barreled defensive shotgun. SXS or o-u only have two shots, which might be enough, but what if there are three or more attackers? Single shots- while the H&R's are decent guns, everyone of them I have shot that has the transfer bar has broken it, most at inoppportune times. Pumps are subject to shortstroking, (I saw this a bunch while running quals in the Navy).

Rifles: Big calibers are going to overpenetrate almost any modern house. Again with the recoil and muzzleblast. Anything in the AR15 line is going to be expensive or unabtainable in todays market.

My recommendations are:

1. A Marlin Model 60, but since he doesn't have cofidence in that, read on.

2. A 20-21" barreled Remington 1100 in 20 guage, with #4 shot, one of the youth models would be about perfect.

3. Much as I dislike the platform, a 16" AR15 with proven good magazines.

4. What the US Army came up with as a replacement for the pistol-- The M1 Carbine, loaded with softpoints, stored in condition 3 (empty chamber, loaded magazine). Light recoil, easy to control, and fits most shooters. Put one of the twin mag pouches on the stock and they will have 45 rounds handy.

Whatever they get, get them to practice with it.

Robert

olafhardt
04-30-2013, 02:11 AM
Every living creature I ever shot with a 22 either ran off or dropped. These experiments included whatever I felt needed to be shot from hogs to mice. My research included headshots, heart shots, gut shots, and rectum shots. I did just buy a mossberg 500 20 gauge at Walmart brandnew for $209+tax. Will it kill them deader?

warboar_21
04-30-2013, 03:58 AM
I have had this discussion with many many many people who are concerned with the economy causing hardship and higher crime/home invasion rates. Most of the people I have discussed this topic with either have no experience with firearms or very limited experience. They always ask me what pistol I think they should buy and I always tell them the same thing. A shotgun of either 12 gauge or 20 gauge. Shorter barrel and either semi or pump depending on their budget.
Handguns require practice and unless someone is willing to spend the time and money to become and stay proficient with a handgun then I could never recommend using one for home defense. Even an accomplished hand-gunner is better off with a long gun.
A pistol caliber carbine would be another good choice. It could either be a semi auto or even a lever action rifle. The Keltec sub 2000 is chambered in 9mm and .40S&W and can take the Glock, Sig, or Beretta hicap magazines. The Beretta firestorm in 9mm is another carbine as well as the Hi Point models. Recoil in these carbines is manageable by a vast majority of people. The lever action .38/.357 would work well properly loaded. I would think that defensive loads in .38spcl would be about .357 mag velocities and with the 16" or 20" barrel length an inexperienced shooter would have better success at making hits on target. The lever action would require a little more practice with having to manipulate the lever than a semi auto would with the point and shoot.

I personally keep a 12ga loaded with buckshot as well has having my ccw pistol loaded and close by where I sleep. My wife isn't what I would call comfortable shooting the shotgun but she would have no problem with it when it came to defending our son. That is if the person or persons were willing to proceed through our Belgian Malinois.
My uncle had to shoot someone who was jacked up on cocaine. He had a single shot 20ga loaded with bird shot. The person was hit in the stomach and was not knocked to the ground or cut to pieces like what I have read. He stopped advancing into the house and turned and ran. On his way to his car he smashed his hand into the window of my cousin's room and sent jagged pieces of glass into her crib. She only suffered a minor cut from a piece of glass that hit her in the cheek. Things could have been much worse though. Now some would argue that the birdshot stopped the intruder and they would be right. However had he decided to continue to come in the house the outcome could have been different for my uncle and his family.

I certainly do not wish to kill anyone but at the same time I am not going to water down my defensive weapons so I don't harm someone. The person that breaks into another person's home has demonstrated that they have no respect for the victims and if confronted they very well will try to harm them or worse (kill them) so they do not go to jail.

As far as the trial goes. If in fact it does go to trial you are most likely going to go broke defending yourself regardless if it was justifiable or not. Even if criminal charges are not brought up against you there is always the civil trial from the perp or perps family.

warf73
04-30-2013, 04:19 AM
If it were for my daughter and son in law I would recommand a Savage 320 Pump Action Tactical Shotgun 12ga 18.5" and bring them to the house and shoot. I mean shoot alot so they are comfortable with the gun, use low recoil bird shot loads. As for defence rounds for the house I would recommand Fiocchi Low Recoil Ammunition 12 Gauge 2-3/4" 00 Buckshot 9 Nickel Plated Pellets or any other Low recoil buck shot.

Good luck and no matter what they get hope they never have to use it.

Warf

dudel
04-30-2013, 06:25 AM
"Everyone got acquitted"

Except the guy who murdered his girlfriend. Otherwise I agree, point well taken. As you noted, we all get to decide what to use. I like reloads, that is what I shoot.

Thanks, I'd just like to leave one more thought that influenced me to carry factory SD. Prior to those cases, there indeed WERE NO cases of reloads being involved in the process. Then those cases came about. They are precedences. Someone always has to be the first. With the changing state of the legal system (hard to call it a justice system), it seems that a prosecutor might use this type of case to advance their career, gain favor with anti-gun groups, or try to win a share of the legal lottery in a civil suit. The general public is much less informed about firearms than this group is. While I would love a jury to be composed of 12 boolit casters, it's not likely to happen. Instead, the jury is likely to have it's share of people who are either scared or ignorant of firearms.

It's also not uncommon to win the legal case; but lose financially in the process. The less time you have to spend in court, the better and cheaper it will be Sorta the same in hospitals ;-( While I hope to never be in the situation, I try to minimize/manage my risk as much as possible. That said, if I've used up all my store bought ammo in a SD situation, I will indeed reach for my handloads.

Char-Gar
04-30-2013, 10:19 AM
68856

I live, as the crow flys 3 miles from the Rio Grande River and Mexico. So, I take house defense weaponry rather serious. Here is my longer gun backed up by a Glock 17.

mdi
04-30-2013, 11:55 AM
How about four?

http://www.gunforums.net/forums/general-gun-talk/5514-cases-where-handloads-caused-problems-court-mas-ayoob.html

They resulted in aquitals (and a bankruptcy), but took several years from the defendants and their family's lives. I save enough with reloads, that I can certainly afford a few boxes of store bought ammo a year. Everyone needs to come to their own conclusion, but to say that reloads have NEVER been an issue would seem to be wrong.
Only the first case cited is about the "use of overly deadly force" (and that was about a police shooting), by using handloads, the others are forensic differences from factory vs handloads...

blackthorn
04-30-2013, 12:16 PM
Quote "I wish they had more classes that people could take that would explain more of what happens after you have to defend yourself or others, and how each scenario is different. Things that can help and hurt you. I think it would help a person think a lot harder before engaging depending on the situation."

+1 on the classes, great idea! As far as thinking about engaging, there will be NO time to think, just time to do!

I also think people should re-read post #68, good well reasoned thinking there!

Char-Gar
04-30-2013, 02:03 PM
I held a Texas Law License for over 50 years, and did my share of Criminal Law both on the defense and prosecution sides. If you are involved in a shooting, there is only one thing you need to know: Keep your mouth shut and ask for a lawyer!! No need for classes or training, just keep your mouth shut and ask for a lawyer. Let them take you into custody and sort it out later. You will only do damage to yourself by running off at the mouth, trying to justify and explain what happened. There will be time enough for that later after the police have interviewed the witnesses and done their crime scene investigation. They are going to do that anyway before making any decisions about charges. Just shut up and ask for a lawyer..got it!

We spend too much time discussing the ins and outs of various weapons. When you find yourself in a deadly situation, the most important things you have is what is between your ears. Your ability to think clearly in a high stress situation, your willingness to fight and kill if necessary and you desire to survive trumps your weapons system by a country mile. Life itself in a head game and how you use your head will determine if you win or loose.

popper
04-30-2013, 04:09 PM
Char-gar: excellent point - anytime you are involved with LEO. Use what is between the ears and evaluate what you have (or want to get), your abilities and your probably situation(s). Like anything, plan ahead. Is that a 9mm?

Char-Gar
04-30-2013, 05:21 PM
Yes...a Norinco Uzi carbine clone. Dead reliable, can roll beer cans at 100 yard and easy to handle in the house. A good 9mm HP out of the long barrel delivers 38 Super ballistics. It will "get er done".

historicfirearms
04-30-2013, 10:02 PM
I've got my Uzi sitting beside my nightstand too. 9mm 115 grain factory loads clock 1450 fps out of my 16" barrel. It is a dead reliable firearm, I've got it to feed wadcutter bullets for fun. 32 rounds at 100 yards stay in a grapefruit size group.

Char-Gar
04-30-2013, 10:27 PM
The UZi and most subguns are very reliable designs as the round go from the magazine straight into the chamber with no feed ramp. Mine will feed 124 grain SWC cast bullets with ease, and never a bobble. The Uzi is a very simple and very reliable design, but very heavy. However the weight gives it the recoil of not much more than a 22.

These UZI carbines are more accurate than the full auto versions because they fire from a closed bolt. The full auto versions fire from an open bolt.

Piedmont
05-01-2013, 12:50 AM
I held a Texas Law License for over 50 years, and did my share of Criminal Law both on the defense and prosecution sides. If you are involved in a shooting, there is only one thing you need to know: Keep your mouth shut and ask for a lawyer!! No need for classes or training, just keep your mouth shut and ask for a lawyer. Let them take you into custody and sort it out later. You will only do damage to yourself by running off at the mouth, trying to justify and explain what happened. There will be time enough for that later after the police have interviewed the witnesses and done their crime scene investigation. They are going to do that anyway before making any decisions about charges. Just shut up and ask for a lawyer..got it!

We spend too much time discussing the ins and outs of various weapons. When you find yourself in a deadly situation, the most important things you have is what is between your ears. Your ability to think clearly in a high stress situation, your willingness to fight and kill if necessary and you desire to survive trumps your weapons system by a country mile. Life itself in a head game and how you use your head will determine if you win or loose.

We all ought to read that entire post about every other month. I like that last sentence, too.
Char-Gar--lawyer/preacher/philosopher.

MBTcustom
05-01-2013, 01:23 AM
I'm going to give my 2 cents worth.
I'm a castbooliteer extraordinaire, and I believe in them for anything except the longest range shots. I am a gunsmith, and I have more than my fair share of assorted firearms with which to defend my life. I could literally have anything, and I am proficient with a very wide variety of weapons.
That being said, I have a loaded 12 gauge shotgun leaned up against my side of the bed. It doesn't matter what it is loaded with. 00 buck, 000buck, #4, or star lock washers with powdered citric acid buffer:shock:, at 5 paces, they are all going to have similar effect.
That being said, we have loaded weapons placed all over the house. If there is a break in, it doesn't matter what room we run to, there is safety and protection waiting in the wings (pun intended) LOL!

The best weapon to use is the one that is close to hand, be it a full auto Uzi, or a stainless steel kitchen knife. Most folks (including gun owners, because of the way they store their "self defence" weapons, insist on defending their lives with a kitchen knife, (child safe of course) or perhaps an airborn remote control?
Me? I have made it so that a loaded gun is the easiest object to get ahold of for self defence. It is actually easier to get to than the remote control.
Yes, I have a child in the house. At 4 years old, she already knows the difference between a rifle, shotgun, handgun, muzzle loader, and a recurve or compound bow, and she knows what happens if she touches any of these things. It happened once when I "accidentally" left an unloaded BB gun down where she could get it. We'll not be doing that again, I'm thinking. I can't protect her from herself as well as the bad guys, so we took care of one of those right off the bat.

I have to say, if I had to have only one firearm, it would be a 12gauge shotgun. Why? cause 10 gauge is too expensive LOL!
Even in the toughest economic times, you can still get some kind of shells for it. Even when gun control gets out of control, you can still have the most powerful gun on the civilian market for hunting squirrels and sich (he said with an innocent grin).

I totally agree with the legal advice given above BTW. Shut up, get a lawyer.

jonp
05-01-2013, 07:11 AM
Indeed. My CCW instructor who is a retired sheriff stressed over and over that when involved in a shooting the only thing to say is "i was afraid for my life. I will answer all of your questions when my lawyer is present" or a variation of that. Remember, the police are not your friends, they have a job to do. Be polite and co-operative but firm in this. You are not required to say anything.

waksupi
05-01-2013, 10:30 AM
I had my dad's old Ithaca M37 by my bed for around twenty years. It finally dawned on me, as I was taking a rifle up to the loading bench one day, just how unwieldy it was to get a long gun around the corners in my cabin. I now keep a .38 Special next to the bed.

opos
05-01-2013, 10:48 AM
Stainless GP100 loaded with 38+P JHP Golden Sabers....shot monthly with the JHP's to keep me and everything else fresh. Have a couple of other 38 Special's with +P "hidden" around the house where they are not accessable unless really known about. Our main deal is to keep a BG out of the house in the first place...not to deal with one after they get in. We've taken major steps to secure the outside entry spaces into our house..We also have my "office" as a safe room....with a double lock steelcore door and it's "well supplied"..if someone does get in we go to the safe room, call the cops on the cell and hunker down ... well prepared if someone does try to force the issue.

sirgknight
05-02-2013, 12:47 AM
All in all, this post has brought to life a very serious and needed discussion about the very important subject of firearms as they relate to protection of life and property, self-defense, legal issues, logistics, planning, orientation of living areas, geographical location, training and personal qualification just to mention a few. And, hopefully it has helped some of us in understanding that there aren't any simple or easy answers to a lot of these questions. I was very lucky (two tours in Vietnam in the '60's and got to come home) to have been exposed to military weapons training and to then be able to complete a 25-year law enforcement career. Even with all that training and experience, it is still important to have a plan of action, to know your weapons of choice and to know both their potential and short-comings and your potential and short-comings, and your ability to safely and adequately handle your firearms, and even then, circumstance can take anyone by surprise. Bearing arms is a right; safely and properly using them is a responsibility.
We need to really know what we mean when we talk about "what we would do" and "how we would do it" and "what we would do it with"? These are legitimate, responsible questions and we need to have legitimate and responsible answers. We can't simply watch a TV program or read a magazine article or view a you-tube video to consider ourselves "trained". Believe me, it just doesn't work that way. If someone really attempts to put our lives or the lives of our family in harm's way, will we be as prepared as possible to face that threat? I believe I will; WILL YOU?

rintinglen
05-02-2013, 01:50 AM
I am firmly in the camp that says "choose the gun you shoot the most."
I know a fellow who has probably fired something in excess of 100,000 45 ACP's from his Target 45's. He keeps a pump shot gun for home defense that he probably hasn't shot twice in the last five years. He has chosen badly in my view. He ought to use that experience and familiarity he's developed with his pistols and not try to substitute "gun" for skill. My younger brother has a 22 semi-auto that he has hunted with for years. No telling how many rounds he's fired out of it. He asked me what kind of pistol he should buy to protect his home. I told him just load your rifle and keep it to hand. No matter how "ideal" a firearm is, it is the ability of the user to operate it effectively that makes it useful. In a desperate situation, you will be best served by your "old faithful" even if it isn't recommended by the gun shop commandos or mall ninjas. Your competence with it will be greater than it will be with some tactically superior weapon that you seldom shoot.

DonMountain
05-02-2013, 10:03 AM
I am firmly in the camp that says "choose the gun you shoot the most."
I know a fellow who has probably fired something in excess of 100,000 45 ACP's from his Target 45's. He keeps a pump shot gun for home defense that he probably hasn't shot twice in the last five years. He has chosen badly in my view. . . .

Well, I thank everybody for their response to this complicated issue. Since these "grown" children are not shooters I am trying to train them in the use of various firearms that shoot lead projectiles pretty well. But until they truly improve on their abilities to actually use a firearm, I am going to recommend to them to purchase a couple of those "pepper blaster" things to avoid killing anybody by accident and to get a bigger dog. And if they are attacked by anyone in their home, to immediately give up and put their hands in the air and call the cops and a lawyer when the attack/robbery is over. And just prey none of them get killed (there is also an 18 year old little sister in the house). I have a feeling that shooting a suspected robber in their own home probably will result in a long jail term for the shooter, a financially bankrupting family situation, a total loss of the college investment under way, and the remaining family members moving back home here on the farm. And that wouldn't be good at all.

bear67
05-02-2013, 10:13 AM
I live on a lake in a rural area on a dead end road with gate that is closed at night--But I keep self defense guns handy. My wife and I both hold Texas CHLs and carry everyday and I own ___handguns (more than one, but never enough), but I keep loaded short barrel 12 ga pumps in our bedroom upstairs and the pantry downstairs. Our grandchildren stay with us sometimes, but have been raised knowing that they must leave loaded guns alone. They all get to shoot at the range and love to do so. The normal load is 2# 4 buck, 2 # 00 Buck, one slug. They are usually my hand-loaded rounds. I use prison system trade in Hi Standard Riots shotguns now, but the only requirement is that they be short barreled and dependable.

I don't tell strangers what to do for home defense, but I am happy with our preparations and practices. My 3 children all have guns and shoot, but I notice all keep a shotgun as primary HD, even my badge totin' son.

My EDC pistol is on the bedroom bookcase, my wife's EDC is on the TV shelf. But a handgun is just to be able to reach a long gun. We shoot at the range several times a month and every once in a while will shoot and pattern the shotguns used for home defense. We shoot our EDC handguns every month.

Bzcraig
05-03-2013, 12:01 AM
Char-gar: excellent point - anytime you are involved with LEO. Use what is between the ears and evaluate what you have (or want to get), your abilities and your probably situation(s). Like anything, plan ahead. Is that a 9mm?

Popper I agree, I hope Char-gar's post is read and heeded! One more closing comment based on all the statements about "going broke having to defend themselves because handloads were used." All I have to say is hog wash! Doggone it, they were gonna have to pay for their defense anyway! Was the 'extra' cost of using handloads what put them in the poor house?

jonp
05-03-2013, 12:30 PM
What was it I read years ago that Mr. Ayoob said "when you pull the trigger you just spent $25,000.

sirgknight
05-03-2013, 12:40 PM
What was it I read years ago that Mr. Ayoob said "when you pull the trigger you just spent $25,000.

highly depends on the state and the county in which you live......

dkf
05-03-2013, 12:54 PM
If they want something compact for just in case a Glock, M&P, XD and etc pistol would be good to keep around. They are fairly loose guns which are very reliable with minimal maint and simple to use. A shotgun or even an AR would be better as long guns are superior to handguns in many ways. As for ammo to load them with I use quality rounds which many LE agencies use. And/Or load equivelent loads myself. They are tested and designed to work. Any round that is going to be very effective at putting down an intruder is going to go through drywall, plaster and what have you if you miss. Spend some time with the firearm to try and avoid missing instead of worrying about loading your gun with inferior loads that are wall safe. Birdshot is for birds.

Desert Pete
05-03-2013, 01:16 PM
I know a man who is an infantry combat veteran and saw a lot of action. He kept a 1911 by his bed. One night he engaged an intruder in his house. He emptied the 1911 and missed with every shot. The intruder fled unharmed. The sheriff said most people miss most of the time in a situation like that. The best outcome is the intruder runs away because he might also return fire and get lucky.

My friend said it is not like combat. You are all alone, at night, in the dark with a bad guy in your house. No one is backing you up. It is all on you.

garym1a2
05-03-2013, 01:26 PM
Glock 17, 19, 21, 22, ... or equal from S&W or other quality company. Big mags, I setup mine with 19 rn for 9mm, 15 for 40, and the glock 21 with 13. Mindset being I may miss a lot in the dark. My 870 may be great but its still only a 6 shooter and buckshoot does not spread that much close range!
Given the chance I would grab an AR15(Red dot) before anything else with a 30 in it.



I know a man who is an infantry combat veteran and saw a lot of action. He kept a 1911 by his bed. One night he engaged an intruder in his house. He emptied the 1911 and missed with every shot. The intruder fled unharmed. The sheriff said most people miss most of the time in a situation like that. The best outcome is the intruder runs away because he might also return fire and get lucky.

My friend said it is not like combat. You are all alone, at night, in the dark with a bad guy in your house. No one is backing you up. It is all on you.

429421Cowboy
05-03-2013, 01:56 PM
Glock 17, 19, 21, 22, ... or equal from S&W or other quality company. Big mags, I setup mine with 19 rn for 9mm, 15 for 40, and the glock 21 with 13. Mindset being I may miss a lot in the dark. My 870 may be great but its still only a 6 shooter and buckshoot does not spread that much close range!
Given the chance I would grab an AR15(Red dot) before anything else with a 30 in it.

The Smith and Wesson SVE40 or 9 (the "Sigma") has shown itself to me to be a heck of a value from the two in my circle of friends, and for a high cap double action pistol, they are dirt cheap for somebody who might just want one for home defense, and might not be a gun person willing to shell out for a Kimber or the like, last i checked here they were around $299 with an extra mag, which ain't bad for a brand new gun, even a trade-in Glock is gonna be more than that.

dkf
05-03-2013, 02:06 PM
I know a man who is an infantry combat veteran and saw a lot of action. He kept a 1911 by his bed. One night he engaged an intruder in his house. He emptied the 1911 and missed with every shot. The intruder fled unharmed. The sheriff said most people miss most of the time in a situation like that. The best outcome is the intruder runs away because he might also return fire and get lucky.

My friend said it is not like combat. You are all alone, at night, in the dark with a bad guy in your house. No one is backing you up. It is all on you.

That is what is nice about some of the guns and accessories we have today. They can accept lights. In the dark with no illumination I can under stand why he missed. The lights on the market now are super bright, fairly light with a plethora of mounts available. Something to look into if you are serious about home defense.

I would like to have suppressors on several of my guns but am not going to go through the BS NFA process that should not even exist.



The Smith and Wesson SVE40 or 9 (the "Sigma") has shown itself to me to be a heck of a value from the two in my circle of friends, and for a high cap double action pistol, they are dirt cheap for somebody who might just want one for home defense, and might not be a gun person willing to shell out for a Kimber or the like, last i checked here they were around $299 with an extra mag, which ain't bad for a brand new gun, even a trade-in Glock is gonna be more than that.

Even though they are ugly as sin and as heavy as a brick the Hi-Point pistol would do for someone on a very tight budget also. Not really a fan of them myself however some people absolutely love them.

sirgknight
05-03-2013, 02:11 PM
Glock 17, 19, 21, 22, ... or equal from S&W or other quality company. Big mags, I setup mine with 19 rn for 9mm, 15 for 40, and the glock 21 with 13. Mindset being I may miss a lot in the dark. My 870 may be great but its still only a 6 shooter and buckshoot does not spread that much close range!
Given the chance I would grab an AR15(Red dot) before anything else with a 30 in it.

I'm certain it would surprise a lot of people as to just how tight the pattern really is on a shotgun at 15 feet or less, regardless of the size shot being used. I actually trained on a hostage response team several years ago and one of the weapons used to "take out the hostage taker" was a shotgun. An interesting experiment you may want to try is to make two silhouettes of a head and put them side by side to imitate a hostage and hostage taker. Mark off 10 feet from the silhouettes; point and shoot the shotgun at one of the heads and check the results.......

ricksplace
05-03-2013, 03:05 PM
Home defense at my place is comprised of an ultra-viscious chihuahua. 8 pounds of imported peckerhead. Somebody makes a noise anywhere near our house, he starts barking. Advance warning so I can load the 12 ga.

Crash_Corrigan
05-03-2013, 03:30 PM
Again and again I read about people having SD guns unloaded but nearby. What is the point of that? How much time are you going to have to load your firearm? I have at present 6 loaded firearms in my tiny tin trailer in which I live in a crime infested area of Las Vegas. I am never more than 6 feet from a loaded gun whilst in my house.

I keep a fully loaded SKS with soft pointed rounds (Factory) and a 40 round magazine next to my front door. Next to my recliner I have a Baker Side by Side 12 gauge fully loaded but with the action open but the weapon is velcroed to the leather chair and can be brought into action in about 1 second. I just do not trust the safety on the old shotgun.

I also have a .44 Special, .41 Magnum and a pair of 9 MM's scattered around but hidden from plain sight. Even the SKS is in a long cardboard box behind the front door and not visible.

I sleep with a powerful LED flashlight on the nightstand along with my cell phone and a loaded 9 MM.

As a retired LEO I am a well accomplished shooter and I know when my use of deadly physical force is justified and when it would not be. During my 20+ years of Police work I ended up using my weapon 5 times. On only one instance did I have to shoot more than a cylinderfull of ammo.

Whilst an LEO I always carried a back up .38 and mucho extra ammo. During a gunfight from a rooftop and at ranges exceeding 200 feet I fired 41 rounds of .38 Special and finally hit my target through his exposed knee. When the fight was over amongst all the 10 LEO's with me I was the only one not out of ammo. I still had a handfull left....

I have been sue in Civil Court for shooting somebody........it is not a fun experience at all. We won....

olafhardt
05-04-2013, 01:16 AM
I live in the country and have poultry and we are requested by the county to shoot friendly polecats because several have tested positive for rabies. I have lost several birds to various predators. My daughter was bitten by a skunk in Boston. My point is that thugs aren't the only boogers out there. I keep the coyotes at bay with powerful LED flash light and a good dog that also scares off owls a nd anocasional possum is shot. I think cattle also discourage ner do wells. They are self reloading.

ricksplace
05-04-2013, 06:31 PM
I live on a small spring fed lake on the top of a small mountain range in Northern Canada. My neighbours and I don't even bother to lock our doors. Yes, people still live like this. My home protection is critter protection. Bears mainly. Haven't had to shoot one yet. A load of 00 buck in the dirt right in front of their nose usually is enough to convince old blackie to go look for food somewhere else.

And if the 12ga doesn't get 'em, there's always the chichuahua.

4570guy
05-04-2013, 06:49 PM
The wife and I both keep .45s at hand in pistol lock-boxes by the bed. There is also a 12 ga. Mossberg behind the bedroom door locked in a Shotlock gun vault. The first round in the shotgun is #4 for rattlesnakes. The rest are 00 buck.

I'll Make Mine
05-07-2013, 09:11 PM
Home defense at my place is comprised of an ultra-viscious chihuahua. 8 pounds of imported peckerhead. Somebody makes a noise anywhere near our house, he starts barking. Advance warning so I can load the 12 ga.

I've got one of those, too, and just about that size (my girlfriend's dog) -- we call her the alarm dog; anything she wasn't expecting will set her off and she'll bark until we reset her (praising and petting usually does it). As you say, gives plenty of time to slip a mag into my .380 and drop a speedloader into my .357 (they'd both be loaded, but North Carolina prohibits that with 16 year old in the house, even though I'd bet he can load and fire any gun in the place with, at most, a minute or two of examination), and still gives me a chance to try to identify the "threat" (the dog's idea of a threat and mine don't always match) before I start sneaking through the house in the dark (I can navigate this place as well in urban darkness as a burglar can with a flashlight -- and his light means I'll see him before he sees me).

xd4584
05-07-2013, 09:51 PM
The biggest thing here IMHO is that he isn't familiar with firearms... A shotgun is a large gun to come around a corner with for someone that doesn't shoot one often. If your getting him a shotgun take him bird hunting so he learns to shoot. I would rather have my full size springfield xd 45 with 13+1 rounds of Corbin 230 grain +p ammo. For me or my wife. She can unload it faster than I can and she is just as accurate as I am. Now she also has an XDS and I have my springfield 1911. I am also working on building a tactical shotgun ouwt of a remington 1100.

Also with shotguns... I had a mossberg with a birds head grip. Easy to shoot... Didn't kill your wrist like a regular pistol grip only would. I got rid of it because my wife and I use my 870 for small game and I have a 7600 and she will be getting one of those too. I couldn't deal with the safety after all the Remington's.. I had a 590 and it was an awesome gun. Just wasn't for me.

Bottom line is it doesn't matter what's beside your bed if you aren't prepared to use it properly. I try to shoot as often as possible. I still do not know how I would react to an intruder. I just hope God is on my side if I ever get into a situation where I have to defend myself or my family

Coonazz
05-07-2013, 10:00 PM
Benelli M2 in the closet loaded w/#4 shot and a Glock 23 in nightstand.

randyrat
05-07-2013, 10:14 PM
I have a cat that wakes me up if anyone/anything is near the house. The dog sleeps until I get up then he is a tough guy. I call the cat "night shift". I'd be more scared of the cat, he is one of those real big males with huge paws and when he jumps on you in the middle of the night, you will wake up. That's when i fall back on strategically placed weapons. The dog seems to kick it into gear when I'm not home, when I'm home he is relaxed.

Wadestep
05-08-2013, 08:58 AM
I still say that for the new shooter, or unpracticed shooter, a revolver with 38+p or 357 is the best home defense gun. As long as you leave it loaded, every time you pull the trigger it goes bang. No saftey to fumble with, no concern about pumping the shotgun or racking the slide, just bang. If I'm deep asleep and hear something break open my front door, I don't want to think about whether I left one in the chamber, need to rack the slide or pump the gun or not. Especially if I haven't shot a gun in 6 months.
That's not a description of me, but maybe relates well to the original post.