45/70 in the Ruger No 3=No 1 Data?

[Adam10mm]

Can the Ruger No 3 be loaded to the same pressures as the No 1? I've always wanted a Ruger No 1 but the No 3 is cheaper.

[45 2.1]

Can the Ruger No 3 be loaded to the same pressures as the No 1? I've always wanted a Ruger No 1 but the No 3 is cheaper.

Yes, but you'll pay dearly with your shoulder. Several fellas have put a No. 1 buttstock on the No. 3, increaseing shooter comfort quite a bit and creating a No. 2.

[Dale53]

I good recoil pad goes a long way in helping the #3 Ruger.

Dale53

[Lloyd Smale]

ruger #3s in 4570 can be about the most evil gun on earth to load for if you like stuffing cases full. They HURT!
Can the Ruger No 3 be loaded to the same pressures as the No 1? I've always wanted a Ruger No 1 but the No 3 is cheaper.

[Nardoo]

Are #3 actions strong?

Get a good 400 or 500 gn slug, cram 50gns of H4895 in the case and go and shoot a hundred or so at a target.

Now see what gives up first, your shoulder or the gun.:-D

Nardoo

[9.3X62AL]

Same action, different lever. BELIEVE ME, FS--yer shoulder will say "UNCLE" before the action gets any strain at all.

The #3 was a good rifle, and was put up in some interesting calibers. I had one in 223 in the late 70's, my first varmint rifle--and it did very fine work. More recently, I saw one in 375 Winchester at a local shop, and dawdled around long enough that it got sold. That would have been a very fine cast boolit rifle, methinks.

[No_1]

I have #3's (for sale) in 44 mag, 30-40 Krag, 375 Winchester and 45-70. I also have some #1's. The #3's are the same (as stated earlier) with the exception of the lever and stock assembly. You can load them up till the cows come home but do you really want to? Case in point: a while back someone ask if the 45-70 at low velocity was potent? The answer went something like this "have you seen any herds of buffalo roaming wild lately?" Back in the day, total herds of buffalo's were slaughtered just for their skin with nothing more than low velocity "45-70's".

So the question remains, why load it to the max?

R.

[Dale53]

Lloyd Smale;
>>>"ruger #3s in 4570 can be about the most evil gun on earth to load for if you like stuffing cases full. They HURT!"<<<

Actually, you CAN load the case full and still "enjoy" shooting the Ruger #3. My favorite load is a 10% duplex load (10%, by weight, of RL-7 behind a case full of 2F Black Powder) with your favorite cast bullet. I use Emmert's homemade Lube and you can literally shoot the round all day long without cleaning, wiping or any of that BP "nonsense". Two to three wet patches of your favorite BP solvent, a couple of dry patches then preservative gives you a two minute clean up.

You can drive a heavy bullet faster than the original black powder load, have all the benefits of a case full of powder (no chamber ringing opportunities or inconsistent ignition) excellent accuracy and GREAT CLOUDS of smoke. What could be more fun.

A great woods hunting load for deer is the above powder management with the Lyman 458422 HP (30/1 Lead/tin). Oh, I forgot to mention, "adequate" recoil (you want to make sure that the rifle went off, don't you?):mrgreen:

Dale53

[Adam10mm]

Thanks guys.

I'm a glutton for punishment. My current 45/70 is a Marlin Guide Gun with a SVL Limbsaver (shouldersaver) pad. Gun weighs 7# and my loads develop 37-40# of free recoil energy. My current load with 350gr FNSP is 47gr IMR4198 (~1950fps). That is fun. Max is supposed to be 52gr.

Getting a CZ550 American Safari in 375H&H, getting a SVL pad on that too.

I am 5-10/145# and am fairly recoil sensitive. The Guide Gun with SVL pad kicks (feels) no more than my 7mm-08 Tikka I had.


So the question remains, why load it to the max?
Because I like to. With my above load I can effectively strike medium game (deer and blackies) out to 275y by holding center of vitals. The standard loads PBR is 210y; I might need that 65y some day. I load plinkers with 12.5gr of TrailBoss with a 405gr lead for small game. Barely breaks the sound barrier. I also like a medium 405@1300. I like versitility.

I load 10mm at 155gr@1400 4" and 200gr@1175 4". I push a 200gr 45 Auto to 950fps in my G30's tiny 3.78" barel. All of this with no pressure sign. Stout recoil gives me confidence that the bullet has the velocity it needs to do the job.

[Dale53]

A good number of years ago, I purchased a Winchester Model 70 in .375 H&H Magnum. My philosophy at the time was to load a .375 "full house" otherwise, I could just break out a smaller bore. That first summer I fired over 1000 rounds of full house .375's including a great number from the bench. I learned a lot with that rifle and when the time came to shoot my bear, I had absolutely full confidence that both the rifle and I would get the job done. We did.

These days I am more than likely to be loading relatively light loads for the caliber (.45 ACP with 4.5 grs of Win 231 and 200 gr SWC or maybe a .32 S&WL with a 100 gr Keith at about 850 fps,etc in my handguns) rather than many "heavy" loads in anything.

However, I will be wringing out a .454 Casull with full loads in the coming months just to add that to my experience base. So, I guess I am a bit of Jekll and Hyde regarding my everyday shooting.

As the man says, "Whatever spins your propeller", I am with you.

Dale53

[hs45/70]

If you'd like to get a " bit flatter trajectory" for a #3 in 45/70 and your not bothered by over 50 ft/lbs recoil...here's a load that shoots one inch in my # 3 45/70 @100yds...

57 Grains Reloder 7 (61.0 is MAX ) 405 gr. Winchester FN
2100..2140..2121 feet per second

With Remington FN.. 2039..2045..2067 fps. 1.60 inch /100 yds

........however I prefer to use 54.0 gr IMR3031 @ 1764..1762..1743 fps for hunting loads as it's more fun to shoot and doesn't loosen my fillings..

[Adam10mm]

I'm going to burn up my pound of IMR4198 by loading the rest with 350gr FNSPs. I'm switching all my rifles (223,7-08,375,45/70) to one powder, Varget. It's in the Extreme line, meters well, and has applications for all my rifles. Couldn't ask for anything better.

[beagle]

Sound wisdom offered by all above.

Had a friend that showed me a #3 .45/70 that he'd picked up at a local gunshow. This was a week before deer season. He stopped by the house and all I had cast were some RCBS 45-405-FN bullets. Told him I thought they were a bit heavy but he went away happy and proud of his new rifle.

Couple of weeks later, I saw him again. Said it like to have killed him./beagle

[BruceB]

[QUOTE=hs45/70;221396]If you'd like to get a " bit flatter trajectory" for a #3 in 45/70 and your not bothered by over 50 ft/lbs recoil...here's a load that shoots one inch in my # 3 45/70 @100yds...

57 Grains Reloder 7 (61.0 is MAX ) 405 gr. Winchester FN
2100..2140..2121 feet per second


My Sweet Lord.

Gents, the famous and much-praised .404 Jeffery made its African reputation on elephant, rhino, cape buffalo, and hippo, with......... 400 grains at 2150 fps.

To turn that much energy loose in a seven-pound carbine with a squiggly lever GUARANTEED to get MOST of your fingers on recoil (instead of just the second one, like my .404) is the very definition of the state-of-mind called "masochism". No sane individual should even fire the FIRST such round, and anyone who'd fire the SECOND one is deserving either my respect for the machismo or my pity for the insanity.

Good grief.

[Lloyd Smale]

got to agree with bruce. You MIGHT get me to shoot it once but even if i wasnt bleading id doubt id want a repeat!! It would be a great load in a 458 #1 that weights about 10 lbs but in that little gun its got to be brutal!!

[Char-Gar]

I have had a #3 for over twenty years and it is a very, very accurate rifle with either cast or jacketed bullets. I killed several deer with that rifle and the 350 Hornaday over 55/3031. It killed like the Hammer or Thor, but the few rounds it took to get it sighted in, were plenty enough for me in the pain department. It came up and back so hard, it brused my cheekbone. It was like taking a hard shot from a world class heavy weight boxer. If anybody calls that "fun", there is something wrong with his idea of fun.

Shooting cast bullets at black powder velocity, the #3 is a fun and fine shooting little carbine. It is no problem to heave those lead bullets into 1 to 1.5 MOA all day long. 25/4759 under a 350 to 400 grain cast bullet will shoot very well and not loosen your teeth, seperate your shoulder or detach a retina.

I removed the factory plastic butt plate from mine and replaced it with an after market steel plate.

I have had an old 2.5X Weaver on mine, but I am going back to irons. I would like a good barrel mounted open sight with a good elevation staff, but my 65 years old eyes are telling me I should go ahead and put a William Foolproof on the rifle.

Altogether the #3 (45-70) is a short, light, accurate, quick, easy to carry brush carbine with lots and lots of stomp on both ends. If that is what you want, the #3 is your rifle.

[hs45/70]

The original poster claims he is not recoil sensitive and I felt that if he was to venture into heavy loads for a #3 45/70 I would provide him with an accurate load , nothing more.....

... I have a Sako Trgs, complete with factory synthetic stock in .416 Rem. with a weight of 8 pounds with scope. This is only 1 pound more than a #3 45/70 and as you'r no doubt aware max loads for the .416 rem with 400 grain bullets end at about a chronographed 2420 fps.
I believe that recoil at 2400 fps with a 8 lb. rifle is higher than 2100 fps in a 7 lb. rifle. You give rise to doubts of sanity and /or attribute machismo to my quoted load for a 45/70 and probably wouldn't blink at quoted load data for 2400 fps in a .416 rem.....

Your reply to posts is always informative..well mannered and carries knowledge from actual experience and I try to do the same when I can contribute something.



..... for some of us, the " recoil " of a 400 grainer at 2100 fps is just another " reduced load " especially compared to 500 grains in .458's at 2000 fps.

cheers...

[45nut]

Your reply to posts is always informative..well mannered and carries knowledge from actual experience and I try to do the same when I can contribute something.


That is fact.

[Adam10mm]

The original poster claims he is not recoil sensitive
No, I said I am recoil sensitive but the SVL pad helps me handle recoil I would not be able to handle with a stock pad. With the SVL pad I can handle about 40-45# of free recoil energy.

[Black Prince]

Your reply to posts is always informative..well mannered and carries knowledge from actual experience and I try to do the same when I can contribute something.

Ain't that the truth? This forum has mostly decent people who are adults and who can communicate effectively without getting their panties all in a wad unlike so many others forums on the web. They are VERY informative and they answer questions without talking down in a condecending manner or in so many words tell you that you are stupid for asking the question in the first place.

And speaking of questions regarding Ruger's, I have installed a Hick's Accurizer on my No. 1. The instructions say it should be inleted tight or it may not work. They also say that I should drill a hole through the forearm so the allen wrench can be passed through it to adjust it. That indicates to me that they expect the Hick's to be adjusted AFTER the forearm screw is tight and that the forearm screw tension will have a lot to do with any adjustment made with the Hick's thingie. I have a fancy custom stock on this rifle with a diamond ebony inlay around that forearm screw and I am NOT going to drill any dam holes in it. The rifle has a Shelen barrel and it's shooting one inch groups now. It's chambered for .338 Win. Mag. I think the rifle is capable of even better accuracy with the Hick's thingie.

My question is: Can I adjust the Hick's thing and then install the forearm and not drill a hole in it? I'll glass bed the Hick's in the forearm to make sure it fit's tight.

Have any of you boys done this and if so, please give me a DETAILED rundown of how to do it and what to look out for or any advice or counsel you have.

[Adam10mm]

...they answer questions without talking down in a condecending manner...
Now if you would have typed (that means talking down to someone) after that, it would be hilarious.:-D

I too agree with the comments about the atmosphere on this BBS. Pleasant and warming with a good sense of humor.

[BruceB]

hs45/70, amigo;

First, many thanks for your kind words. They're much appreciated.

[QUOTE=hs45/70; " I believe that recoil at 2400 fps with a 8 lb. rifle is higher than 2100 fps in a 7 lb. rifle. You give rise to doubts of sanity and /or attribute machismo to my quoted load for a 45/70 and probably wouldn't blink at quoted load data for 2400 fps in a .416 rem....."

...cheers...[/QUOTE]

My experience with the .404 and .416 Rigby has pretty much covered the full range of possible power levels. The .404 has been used exclusively with 400 grain bullets, running from about 1500 fps (cast bullets) to just under 2500 with X-bullets and Barnes Originals. I'm surely not quibbling about your actual loads themselves, because they're quite reasonable. It's just that my limited shooting with a #3 in .30-40 convinced me that I wanted nothing to with the design in anything more-energetic than the Krag round.

I'm very familiar with the recoil of 400/2150 in the 8-pound Mauser, and would really hate to encounter such energy in the #3. I know I'd question MY OWN sanity if I was ever tempted sufficiently to fire a .404-level round in the #3. I reckon I expressed it poorly, because I intended no slurs or aspersions.

I did a good bit of shooting with the .404 with factory-level loads, including the 80 or 90 factory rounds which supplied my first supply of brass ($5.85 for FIVE rounds, at a time when my brand-new Oldsmobile 442 cost $4200!)

The nastiest recoil I encountered with these two rifles was in the .416 Rigby #1, in a maximum-effort load which drives the 300 Barnes X at just barely short of 3000 fps. It's substantially less-pleasant than my pal's Brno ZKK in .450 Ackley, pushing 500 grains at 2400. Velocity of the recoil has a lot to do with tolerance for same, I find.

...and, cheers right back atcha!

[Black Prince]

I believe you Bruce. I gotta 45 & 70 something Sharps and with 500 grain bullets and a case fulla compressed double F black powder, it'll get my attention. I doan even wanna talk about a case filla smokeless powder in my Browning Traditional Hunter with the curved butt plate designed to kill and mame the shooter. OUCH! Those big bruisers hurt. That's why I stick with a whimpy GCC for general hunting work in the lower 48. It kills whitetails sho-nuff graveyard dead and they doan runned off nun a tall neither no!

I fixed the Hick's thingie with a Dermel tool and some Acura-glass. Nuthin' to it.

[Texas001]

Don't use a pad, use the mercury break. I did and my #3 has been tamed.

[Texas001]

Don't use a pad, use the mercury brake. I did and my #3 has been tamed.

[Harry O]

I have three No. 3's that have been converted to No. 2's (using No. 1 wood). Of course, I take rat poison to thin my blood (along with other heart medications), but even the 30-40 raised a black & blue mark on my shoulder after about 20 rounds. The .375 Win was even worse. After changing the wood (and using 1" thick recoil pads), I have absolutely no problem shooting them.

I did a lot of measuring before changing. The problem with the No. 3 wood is theefold: (1) there is more drop than with No. 1 wood, (2) there is less area at the back to spread the load and, (3) it has a metal "recoil pad". Just putting on a rubber recoil pad helped, but did not help as much as replacing the wood entirely.

As far as the Hicks. Shoot your gun first. If it strings vertically, you need something (the Hicks is only one way). I machined a piece of hard walnut to match the curve of the upper barrel and the lower tang (or whatever that piece up front is called). I measured the distance between them and made it 1/32" thicker. Pushing it in between the barrel and tang cured the stringing problem. BTW, I did not come up with this idea. DeHaas did and it worked.

[softpoint]

I had one of those little # 3 carbines in 45/70 years ago, when they were first introduced. Load 53 grains of 3031 behind the 500 gr. Hornady to impress your buddies when they ask to shoot it. I also had one in .375 Winchester that we re-chambered to .375 Epstein. That rifle was accurate, lightweight, but it was feisty, too as it pushed 300 gr. bullets slightly faster than a .375 H&H. I wish I still had that one..:mrgreen:

[Marine Sgt 2111]

I have not one but two #3's in 45-70 one of which is destined to become a .40-70 SBN. I bought my first back in '76 and went bear hunting in the UP here in Michigan. I was driving a winchester 405gr softpoint at 2100fps. Recoil was brutal. Just the other night I saw loads for barns bullets for the ruger that drove a 300gr bullet over 2500 fps. While anything that will shoot in the #1 can be shot in the #3 you have to ask yourself....just how much is too much.

400 grainers, at 2100fps makes my ears ring, and about 6 to 8 shots does it for me, for not only the day but for awhile (and that was having the butt stock filled with #9 birdshot.

I now look at shooting a 330gr bullet at 1300 to 1500fps as being plenty...

[725]

Marine Sgt 2111 - Just a thought here. The Ruger #'s 1 or 2 are just made for the mercury recoil reducing tube. Slip the butt plate aside, insert the tube, make stationary with a piece of dowl (to fill overall length), and refit the butt plate. Has tamed my .458 Lott from a painful experience to an almost all day shooter. The mercury recoil tube is a sealed steel tube partially filled with mercury. At the discharge, the mercury sloshes to one end and acts as a hammer like force to counter the recoil movement. Works like a champ. Should turn your .45-70 into something like a .308 experience. Check out Brownell's catalog.

[cajun shooter]

I think that a #3 is a fine light carry all day, shoot once, return to case gun. If you place that one shot where it should go then you will be too busy cleaning to shoot anymore. The mercury works wonders as has been stated already.

[August]

I've owned two of the #3, 45-70 carbines. Still have one and am very sorry I let the other one go. Both are/were pre-warning w/o taps for scope mounts. Very accurate with everything I've put in them. Very uncomfortable to shoot -- whole right side of body black and blue after one extended session. Never again.

If there's a better carry-it-all-day, knock down whatever you're after gun out there, I don't know of it. I had a Guide gun for a while, but the No. 3 is one of the absolute keepers in my safe.

[yondering]

My question is: Can I adjust the Hick's thing and then install the forearm and not drill a hole in it? I'll glass bed the Hick's in the forearm to make sure it fit's tight.

Have any of you boys done this and if so, please give me a DETAILED rundown of how to do it and what to look out for or any advice or counsel you have.

BP, I am right now in the finishing stages of building a custom #1 for my boss, with a Hicks accurizer on it. As I'm sure you've noticed, the Hicks is a slightly loose fit over the forend hanger, and pivots around the forend screw pin. When setting up the forend on this gun, I tightened the tension screw on the Hicks until it was just barely putting pressure on the barrel, then bedded it to the forend in that condition. I drilled a hole in the forend for adjustment, but you could do without, and just remove the forend for adjustment.

The hole size is very small though, and if you drill it straight, is hidden in the groove for the forend screw, and hardly noticeable. This is a custom walnut stock I am using, with a lot of hours into it, but I don't feel that the adjustment hole is noticeable or detracts from the appearance in any way. The trick is to bed the accurizer in the forend first, then use the bedding to identify where to drill, starting inside the forend. Use a small sharp drill at medium speed with light pressure, it should come out cleanly.

I don't have any pics of the hole, but here's the rifle anyway: (barrel has since been bead blasted for a satin stainless finish to match the satin blued action)
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Misc/IMG_2243.jpg

[45r]

I shot 50 rounds of my new Saeco 350GC boolits over 49 grains Vitt-133 and they were going into a ragged hole.My rcbs 300GC boolits do the same with the same powder and 49.2 grains.My Win Highwall loves these boolits and recoil doesn't bother me much at all.Once you find the right hold and get comfortable with it you can shoot a 45-70 with these loads fairly easy.I have a big scope and Pac pad that helps but a shoulder pad or maybe a slip on pad would help tame the kick with a # 3 ruger.That is a sweet looking custom # 1.

[Nrut]

Beautiful rifle Yondering...

[Wayne Smith]

If there's a better carry-it-all-day, knock down whatever you're after gun out there, I don't know of it. I had a Guide gun for a while, but the No. 3 is one of the absolute keepers in my safe.

I'll take my Encore Katadin 20" SS barrel with recoil reducing stock. In 45/70, of course, or 500S&W.

[45-70marlin]

I will have to agree with Marine Sgt 2111, I shoot the 330 gould bullet at about 1450 fps out of my guide gun. too old for the hot stuff, but it will take care of anything I get into. :drinks:

[dgslyr]

I had one of those little # 3 carbines in 45/70 years ago, when they were first introduced. Load 53 grains of 3031 behind the 500 gr. Hornady to impress your buddies when they ask to shoot it. I also had one in .375 Winchester that we re-chambered to .375 Epstein. That rifle was accurate, lightweight, but it was feisty, too as it pushed 300 gr. bullets slightly faster than a .375 H&H. I wish I still had that one..:mrgreen:

I used to have a #3 and 53 grs. of IMR 3031 with a 500 gr. Hornady was the most accurate load.D-9's and D-10 Caterpilliars would be no match for it.The right side of my face twitches at the thought of it though.

[Dale53]

I have a Ruger #3 in .45/70 and the first thing, and I mean FIRST thing I did, was to put a Limb Saver recoil pad on it after cutting the stock to length.

My idea is to use the 322 H.P. Gould bullet (25 or 30/1 lead/tin) ahead of a duplex load of 10% RL-7 and 90% Swiss or Goex 2F. It shoots extremely clean and drives the Gould bullet at the speed it was designed for. I use Emmert's Home Mix bullet lube. If I want flat shooting, I have other rifles for that. The 45/70 is probably as good a woods rifle as there is and it doesn't have to be driven at warp speed to give it MORE than decent killing power.

I have the Lyman single cavity hollow point mould for the Gould but I have a friend who has a Lyman four cavity mould in the same bullet but solid point. You can practice with the solid point (good production capability) and save the somewhat harder to produce hollow points for hunting.

FWIW
Dale53

[Crash_Corrigan]

I ran into a fellow shooter at the range one day. He convinced me to try out his 505 Gibbs. It was gorgeous. Custom built on an Enfield action with beautiful wood and a perfectly blued action.

I let him talk me into shooting it. One shot. Never again! I stood tall and leaned into it a mite and let it rock me back with the recoil. The black and blue showed up the next day and was a nausous shade of vile yellow in a week.

Then he tells me that the round was loaded with over 115 grains of a forgotten powder, under a 525 Gr Copper bullet and he had chronoed it at about 2525 FPS.

He had taken Water Buffalo with it in Africa and American Bison in 4 states with it.

I wish him well but I will never again subject myself to that amount of pain and call it fun. My 12 Gauge Baker Side by Side is more than I want to enjoy

[Franklin Zeman]

There is a nice, giving, rubber like butpad for the #3. It is a definite aid in minimizing the size and depth of the bruise my shoulder gets from 45-70 loads in a light weight carbine. That is with 350 and 400 grainers. I believe it is made by Choate.

[excavman]

About 20 years ago I ordered a Ruger #1 in 45-70 at a local gun shop, what I got was a #3 instead. I should have had the guy send it back, it was the most unpleasent shooting rifle I've ever had. I have a Sharps now, love it.

Larry

[Dale53]

I have a Ruger #3. The first thing I did before I even fired it, I had a local stockmaker shorten the butt and install a GOOD recoil pad. It made all of the difference. Since I never envisioned the 45/70 as a long range gun for hunting but a terrific short range "smasher" with properly shaped cast bullets, trapdoor level loads help a lot to manage the recoil.

The #3 is a terrific short range hunting rifle for the largest game. It is one of those that you carry it a lot and shoot it a little.

I have several BPCR's for "long range" match use (I shot BPCR Silhouette for fifteen years). I never much had a desire to pack a twelve pound rifle in rough country.

I also have a Marlin lever action 45/70 and you can load it up heavy enough to bring tears to your eyes.

The #3 can be loaded up heavy enough to make you want to call 911 but that doesn't mean you have to...

I decent load for hunting can be a proper black powder load, a duplex load, or a smokeless load with a 350 gr bullet (my favorite would be the Lyman 457322 Gould Hollow Point out of 30/1 lead/tin) for deer and you have a perfectly wonderful hunting combination. Keep in mind that I have taken all of my deer with handguns (proper disclosure here) but I have had some experience with rifles on other big game including black bear. I have been in on the autopsies of probably somewhere between 35-50 black bear along with interviews of the hunters involved. That gives a feller a good idea as to what works with game of this size, ruggedness and stamina.

It goes back to that old saying, "Horses for courses"...

YMMV
Dale53