Best 30 to 40 caliber rifle to use with cast boolits for big game

[vmathias]

I will be buying a new rifle in the near future in 30 to 40 Caliber. My intent is to use 100% cast for said rifle. Opinions wanted on rifles that work very well with cast. I will be using this for mainly deer and Bear so I will need something with enough knock down power for the game mentioned. Please mention barrel lengths, twist rates etc... Looking forward to hearing from you guys as to what works. Thanks...

[338RemUltraMag]

Nothing wrong with a 30-06, 30-30, 358 Winchester, 35 Whelen, 8mm Mauser, 38-55, 375 H&H

All of those can and will shoot cast just as well as jaxeted bullets.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

,nce?

[TXGunNut]

My personal favorite if you're leaning towards a levergun is a Marlin 336 in 35 Rem. Rifles aren't very common and for new cases you're limited to Winchester unless you stumble across some Remingtons. Not a real issue, I just prefer the Remington case. I use the Ranch Dog 359-190 mould; out of production but quite possibly available from Lee or NOE. A better choice for a levergun may be the 375 Winchester or .38-55. I don't have any CB experience with either but I've hunted with the .375 in a Winchester Big Bore with j-words and it is a solid performer. Cases should be easier to find or make and there are some really good 38 caliber moulds in use around here. For a sentimental favorite I like my 94 in .32 Winchester Special loaded up with the RD 323-170. It's not a serious hunting rifle for me but it certainly could be.
For a bolt gun the 358 Winchester or 35 Whelen would be my choice for short and long actions, respectively. No hands on expereince with either but I've been studying on them a bit lately. Cases are no problem, the Winchester can be made from .308's and the Whelen from .30-06's, IIRC. I'm considering reboring a shot-out .30-06 to 35 Whelen, after a trip to JESS all I'll need is a set of dies.

[BAGTIC]

.375 Winchester or 38/55.

[Shooter]

.405 Winchester. Easier on brass than the .375 H&H.

[6.5 mike]

Have a Marlin 375, C Sharps 38-55 & a 35 Whelen built on a 1909 argi action. If I had to pick one it would be the Whelen for anything I would want to hunt.

[Blammer]

35 whelen 24" tube 1/14 twist 200gr cast boolit 2400fps will thump anything out to 200yds. :)

[grampa243]

I like the 45-70 myself :) but in lever guns the 30-30 is good too. you can load a nice heavy boolit for big game and load down for fun and varmits.

if you're going bolt a 308 or 30-06 give a good choice of boolit weights.

for bear i think of my 45-70 as a 12ga. with brass shells :)

[MarkP]

All catridges listed above are good choices but here is one of my top favorites: 38-55 WCF, 255 FN, 950 to 1,850 fps; Easy to cartridge to load and my rifles are not finicky about loads everything shoots well in them.
You can find NIB 30+ year old guns that are $500 less than the New Winchesters that are made in Japan. (Oliver F Winchester, Chief Crazy Horse, Legendary Frontiersmen, or Texas Sequential (this one is kind of rare))

I was horrified a few years ago shooting while my 38-55’s and 30-30’s in low light. I had trouble seeing my front sight and came up with an excuse for another rifle.

I made a wild cat based on the 300 WSM necked to .416 with a super long neck kind of looks like a 577-450 Martini; my goal was a cast only gun for dark timber big game. It is on a SS REM M SEVEN, 20" bbl, 1:18 Twist, 1-3X scope, HS ultralight stock; 315 gr - 1,300 to 2,300 fps & 400 gr 1,225 to 2,050 fps; I could go faster but it begins to hurt shooting off the bench once the 400's are above 1,700 fps.

Another favorite of mine is the 350 Rem Mag but I would probably recomend a 358 Win or 35 Whelen as you could have a 308 or 30/06 rebored for less than a new bbl.

My father-in-law has a Sako M85 in 338 Federal and the LEE 339-220 RN's shoot very well it it from Trailboss loads to full loads of 4064.

Good Luck!

[Dan Cash]

Considering the times, my choice is a .30. A .30-30 will drive a 175 grain paper patched or very hard grease groove bullet to 2200 fps. If that is not enough whomp, a .30-06 will push a 220 bullet 2400+. Easy on powder and lead, plentiful brass and will kill anything that walks this half of the world.

[badbob454]

i have a 30-06 that is my go to hunting rifle for big game , if i ever get another , without selling mine ill get a
.35 whelen , for (pigs and smaller ) medium game my sks with a 175 gr flat nose boolit @ 1700fps, and 30-06 cases can be resized/reloaded to shoot the .35 whelen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.35_Whelen

[Bullshop]

375/06

[vmathias]

I am surprised no one is mentioning the 444 Marlin. Thought that would be a popular choice?

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I am surprised no one is mentioning the 444 Marlin. Thought that would be a popular choice?

option ...

[btroj]

I think a 358 Win or 35 Whelen is about ideal. Good bullet weight, good diameter unexpanded, able to get good velocity. Makes for a very good 200 yard deer/bear gun with cast.

That said, I use a 45-70 and 375 H&H for my hunting needs these days. 45-70 is a hammer up close, the 375 just reaches out there easier due to higher intal velocity with reasonable recoil.

[MT Gianni]

I would exclude the 32-20, 38x40 and the 7.62x39 and take on almost any other rifle cartridge.

[357maximum]

Gotta love a question that basically has no wrong answers. :mrgreen:

30-30, .308, 30-06, 7.65X53, 32SPCL, 8X57, 35REM, 358WIN, 35Whelen, 9X57....... etc, etc, etc........Just PICK ONE and go kill something.

[MT Chambers]

I'll take a .356 Win. in a levergun #1, the .358 W. and 358 Whelen for boltguns, then a 38/55.....these are also the most cast bullet friendly of the small bores.

[jimgun]

for dedicated boolit guns i have: lever action 30-30, 35 rem, 45-70. bolt rifles 300 savage, 308 win, 30-06, 35 whelen, 450 marlin. so per your requirements, depending on the type rifle, my recommendations are either 30-30 or 300 savage (or 308). my personal favorite is a lightweight 300 savage carbine. I use from 115 gr to 180 gr boolits from squirrels and turkeys to deer and bear. good luck in your decision jim

[StrawHat]

405 wcf.

[Ironnewt]

You do realize that there is no "wrong" answer to this question.

[Jupiter7]

One caveat. There are a bunch of wrong answers. Re-read this thread, I think that the possible use on bears rules out quite a few choices. Dangerous game requires a big wallop. I like 30-30 and I'd not consider it adequate if my life depended on it vs. a bear. 358 Winchester has a good following here and seems a natural for cast, it gets my vote.

On a side note, a buddy of mine years ago shot a black bear in east tennesse with a Ruger #1 45/70 from a tree stand from about 35yds, good shot, bear still climbed tree after him. Shot him 6 more times with .357 gp100 at near point blank range. Bear fell from tree and walked off. Found next day, dead. 45/70 was a mortal wound, just not DRT.

[geezer56]

Read Paco Kelly's thoughts on the 35 Whelen. I did, and it convinced me. I just got through assembling a Savage in that caliber. I own, and shoot, a 375 H&H, a 405 Win, and a 416 Rigby. For scratchy bitey things, bigger is better, but the whelen is no slouch. Pistol weight boolits up to 300 gr thumpers is a nice option too. Molds are available, brass is easy to find. You can use 25-06, 270, 30-06, 280 Rem, or even Whelen brass. Rigby brass is 2 bucks a pop, 375 isn't much better.

[x101airborne]

I have always had an affection for the 348 Winchester. Made for big game and cast boolits from the get go.

[vmathias]

You do realize that there is no "wrong" answer to this question.

Well I do realize they all shoot but do know some shoot better than others with Cast Boolits. You also lose velocity and energy with cast. Would an 06 be better than a 45-70??? The 06 is faster with what I would assume to be more energy. But the 45-70 is a much bigger projectile. Certain guns shoot better than others as well.

[vmathias]

One caveat. There are a bunch of wrong answers. Re-read this thread, I think that the possible use on bears rules out quite a few choices. Dangerous game requires a big wallop. I like 30-30 and I'd not consider it adequate if my life depended on it vs. a bear. 358 Winchester has a good following here and seems a natural for cast, it gets my vote.

On a side note, a buddy of mine years ago shot a black bear in east tennesse with a Ruger #1 45/70 from a tree stand from about 35yds, good shot, bear still climbed tree after him. Shot him 6 more times with .357 gp100 at near point blank range. Bear fell from tree and walked off. Found next day, dead. 45/70 was a mortal wound, just not DRT.

There could have been many factors as to why the bear did not go down with the first shot. First off, Bears are a SUPER tough animal, Could have been bad shot placement or wrong bullet. A buffalo is a big dense tough animal yet the 45-70 was the caliber of choice to take these behemoths. My buddy shot a button buck (that he thought was a doe) last year "broadside shot" with a 30 06 180 grain core lokt. That deer ran well over 100 yards before dying. I have never had one go more than 30 yards (big bucks included) with my 243. Just goes to show that power and weight is not always a SURE thing.

[Andrew Mason]

I'd say 375win or .405 winchester

[runfiverun]

Well I do realize they all shoot but do know some shoot better than others with Cast Boolits. You also lose velocity and energy with cast. Would an 06 be better than a 45-70??? The 06 is faster with what I would assume to be more energy. But the 45-70 is a much bigger projectile. Certain guns shoot better than others as well.

not with cast.
the 45/70 will generally out power the 30-06.
you have a 400 gr boolit versus a 200 gr boolit.
you have to put some velocity behind the 0-6 to gain the foot pounds, that isn't alway's an easy thing to do.
the 45/70 will easily hit 18-1900 fps with lead, I stay more in the 16-1700 area, and generally hang in the 1900-1950 area with the 30-06.
200 fps is not going to make up the difference.
now if you switch to something like a 250 gr boolit at 23-2400 you are making some huge inroads on 'energy'.

[vmathias]

not with cast.
the 45/70 will generally out power the 30-06.
you have a 400 gr boolit versus a 200 gr boolit.
you have to put some velocity behind the 0-6 to gain the foot pounds, that isn't alway's an easy thing to do.
the 45/70 will easily hit 18-1900 fps with lead, I stay more in the 16-1700 area, and generally hang in the 1900-1950 area with the 30-06.
200 fps is not going to make up the difference.
now if you switch to something like a 250 gr boolit at 23-2400 you are making some huge inroads on 'energy'.

So with your figures listed what would be my max effective range on big game with the 45-70 at those velocities?

[Pilgrim]

Went back and re-read your initial question. Lowest cost option is the .30-30. Brass is easy to find. Cartridge and rifles are cast boolit friendly. Some of the micro-grooves used to be difficult to shoot cast well. Harder boolits and a couple .001" oversize has apparently worked for some of these. Only downside to the .30-30 is marginal power for some "bear/elk/moose" situations. Close 2nd is the .35 Rem. A little more power and cast friendly. Downside is harder to find brass and rifles. On these 2 cartridges barrel length is whatever you buy since rebarreling, etc isn't likely needed. The next choice is .358 Win or .35 Whelen. These two will likely cost you more to buy the rifle than the 1st two. The Whelen is better if you want boolits heavier than ~250 gr. The .358 Win. is better if you are happy with boolits ~250 gr. and less as brass is easier to come by. Both of these are harder to find used, and selection of new rifles is pretty restricted. In any case you want a barrel of no less than 22", muzzle blast is nasty with short barrels. I rebarreled my BLR primarily due to a bad barrel, but might have rebarreled due to muzzle blast. The BLR barrel length of 18.5" is just too damn short. I have no idea why they picked that length. Not many of us hunt in kudzu patches! Standard twist is fine. The .375 Win and others of that ilk (groove dia.) are fine if you have a good source of brass and can find a rifle at reasonable price. Any cartridge other than .30-30, .35 Rem, .358 Win, and .35 Whelen will work fine but will cost you more for brass, and will make acquiring brass more difficult/expensive, as well more likely more expensive to acquire originally. FWIW...

[Jupiter7]

There could have been many factors as to why the bear did not go down with the first shot. First off, Bears are a SUPER tough animal, Could have been bad shot placement or wrong bullet. A buffalo is a big dense tough animal yet the 45-70 was the caliber of choice to take these behemoths. My buddy shot a button buck (that he thought was a doe) last year "broadside shot" with a 30 06 180 grain core lokt. That deer ran well over 100 yards before


dying. I have never had one go more than 30 yards (big bucks included) with my 243. Just goes to show that power and weight is not always a SURE thing.

I think we're on the same page for the most part. I was making 2 points in a round about way. A follow up shot would've stopped said bear, so maybe a bolt or lever action is in order. Point 2, nothing is a sure thing regardless of caliber. I've killed deer with much less energy downrange
and lost a couple sure things with much more energy. As said, placement is king.

[vmathias]

Went back and re-read your initial question. Lowest cost option is the .30-30. Brass is easy to find. Cartridge and rifles are cast boolit friendly. Some of the micro-grooves used to be difficult to shoot cast well. Harder boolits and a couple .001" oversize has apparently worked for some of these. Only downside to the .30-30 is marginal power for some "bear/elk/moose" situations. Close 2nd is the .35 Rem. A little more power and cast friendly. Downside is harder to find brass and rifles. On these 2 cartridges barrel length is whatever you buy since rebarreling, etc isn't likely needed. The next choice is .358 Win or .35 Whelen. These two will likely cost you more to buy the rifle than the 1st two. The Whelen is better if you want boolits heavier than ~250 gr. The .358 Win. is better if you are happy with boolits ~250 gr. and less as brass is easier to come by. Both of these are harder to find used, and selection of new rifles is pretty restricted. In any case you want a barrel of no less than 22", muzzle blast is nasty with short barrels. I rebarreled my BLR primarily due to a bad barrel, but might have rebarreled due to muzzle blast. The BLR barrel length of 18.5" is just too damn short. I have no idea why they picked that length. Not many of us hunt in kudzu patches! Standard twist is fine. The .375 Win and others of that ilk (groove dia.) are fine if you have a good source of brass and can find a rifle at reasonable price. Any cartridge other than .30-30, .35 Rem, .358 Win, and .35 Whelen will work fine but will cost you more for brass, and will make acquiring brass more difficult/expensive, as well more likely more expensive to acquire originally. FWIW...

One thing I failed to mention that you did, I should have stated in my opening question the availability of brass for said cartridges. It wont do me any good if i find the rifle but cant find the brass. I am leaning towards the 45-70. They seem to be readily available and from what I have read can be reloaded multiple times.

[Bullshop]

not with cast.
the 45/70 will generally out power the 30-06.
you have a 400 gr boolit versus a 200 gr boolit.
you have to put some velocity behind the 0-6 to gain the foot pounds, that isn't alway's an easy thing to do.
the 45/70 will easily hit 18-1900 fps with lead, I stay more in the 16-1700 area, and generally hang in the 1900-1950 area with the 30-06.
200 fps is not going to make up the difference.
now if you switch to something like a 250 gr boolit at 23-2400 you are making some huge inroads on 'energy'.
375/06 will aproach 2300 fps with a 370gn boolit. I think that works out to about 5000 fpe. In 45/7 0you can only do that with what Ken Waters classed as the super group three class of firearms. Those include the Ruger #1, B-78 (1885Browning) and Siamese Mauser actions the Whitcliff and maybe a few other very strong actions most of which are single shot.
So the 375/06 is capable of developing energy enough to hunt Africa and makes the minimum caliber for some countries. It works on readily available actions. The brass, bullets, and boolit designs are readily available. It can be loaded down to 38/55 levels but still has more readily available brass than the 38/55 or up to truly big game levels.
It falls exactly in the caliber range you asked for and I dont think any other cartridge better fills your requirments.

[vmathias]

375/06 will aproach 2300 fps with a 370gn boolit. I think that works out to about 5000 fpe. In 45/7 0you can only do that with what Ken Waters classed as the super group three class of firearms. Those include the Ruger #1, B-78 (1885Browning) and Siamese Mauser actions the Whitcliff and maybe a few other very strong actions most of which are single shot.
So the 375/06 is capable of developing energy enough to hunt Africa and makes the minimum caliber for some countries. It works on readily available actions. The brass, bullets, and boolit designs are readily available. It can be loaded down to 38/55 levels but still has more readily available brass than the 38/55 or up to truly big game levels.
It falls exactly in the caliber range you asked for and I dont think any other cartridge better fills your requirments.

Although this sounds like a dandy caliber, I am looking in the 450-650 price range. Not sure if I can find that caliber/rifle combo with that price? Spending more on a rifle is not justified in the terrain I hunt. Pennsylvania has some pretty rough landscapes with very thick brush and most shots are 100 yards or less. The reason I prefer synthetics over wood.

[outdoorfan]

You didn't say to what distance you expect to be shooting at. I would leave the .30's out of the discussion, as they don't kill as reliably as the .35's. IMO, anything bigger than .35 will increase recoil, possibly be harder and more expensive to obtain brass, and will likely recoil more and not be as pleasant to shoot. .358 Winchester and .35 Whelen are your best bets, IMO. Get one with a 1/14 twist and 24 inch barrel (if possible). The Whelen has a long throat, so if you want to shoot boolits in the 200-230 range, I would go with the .358 Winny. The 14 twist will allow you to easily reach 2100-2300 fps with good accuracy and minimal fuss, whereas shooting the 30'06 at 1600-1800 fps IMO is boring and not very useful past 100 yards. Either way you won't be disappointed.

My 35 Whelen shoots a 250 grainer at 2350 fps, and it recoils about like a standard jacketed loaded 30'06 150 grainer at 2900 fps or so. Perhaps it's even lighter in recoil than that.

Edit: Oops, I see you just stated that your shots are pretty close. Still, the .35's will easily get you at to 200 yards or more with very minimal fuss.

Another thing that some people don't consider when it comes to the cost of the rifle, is that you have costs in load work-up. I spent wayyyyyyy less money and time finding a good load in the velocity range I wanted to shoot the Whelen than I did when trying to get the same velocity out of the 1/10 twist 30'06. Just food for thought.



I will be buying a new rifle in the near future in 30 to 40 Caliber. My intent is to use 100% cast for said rifle. Opinions wanted on rifles that work very well with cast. I will be using this for mainly deer and Bear so I will need something with enough knock down power for the game mentioned. Please mention barrel lengths, twist rates etc... Looking forward to hearing from you guys as to what works. Thanks...

[vmathias]

You didn't say to what distance you expect to be shooting at. I would leave the .30's out of the discussion, as they don't kill as reliably as the .35's. IMO, anything bigger than .35 will increase recoil, possibly be harder and more expensive to obtain brass, and will likely recoil more and not be as pleasant to shoot. .358 Winchester and .35 Whelen are your best bets, IMO. Get one with a 1/14 twist and 24 inch barrel (if possible). The Whelen has a long throat, so if you want to shoot boolits in the 200-230 range, I would go with the .358 Winny. The 14 twist will allow you to easily reach 2100-2300 fps with good accuracy and minimal fuss, whereas shooting the 30'06 at 1600-1800 fps IMO is boring and not very useful past 100 yards. Either way you won't be disappointed.

My 35 Whelen shoots a 250 grainer at 2350 fps, and it recoils about like a standard jacketed loaded 30'06 150 grainer at 2900 fps or so. Perhaps it's even lighter in recoil than that.

Edit: Oops, I see you just stated that your shots are pretty close. Still, the .35's will easily get you at to 200 yards or more with very minimal fuss.

Another thing that some people don't consider when it comes to the cost of the rifle, is that you have costs in load work-up. I spent wayyyyyyy less money and time finding a good load in the velocity range I wanted to shoot the Whelen than I did when trying to get the same velocity out of the 1/10 twist 30'06. Just food for thought.

Hearing a lot of good comments on the 358 winchester and 35 Whelen. These will be strong considerations along with the 45-70 and 444 marlin.

[outdoorfan]

I forgot to mention that if you can't see yourself shooting much past 100 yards, then a lever gun in a pistol cartridge chambering might be a good option. Even a .357 magnum will fit the bill. The 44 magnum would be an excellent choice. The .444 is a waste (IMO) if the distances are that short.

[vmathias]

I forgot to mention that if you can't see yourself shooting much past 100 yards, then a lever gun in a pistol cartridge chambering might be a good option. Even a .357 magnum will fit the bill. The 44 magnum would be an excellent choice. The .444 is a waste (IMO) if the distances are that short.

The 454 Casull is also an option. Powerful cartridge out to 100-125.

[outdoorfan]

The .454 will reach out quite a bit further than that with authority. The .357, .44, and .45 Colt are powder misers and will have plenty of punch to 100-125 yards (especially the latter two) for deer and bear. Because they are cheaper to feed you will be inclined to shoot them more (practice).

[vmathias]

Gotta love a question that basically has no wrong answers. :mrgreen:

30-30, .308, 30-06, 7.65X53, 32SPCL, 8X57, 35REM, 358WIN, 35Whelen, 9X57....... etc, etc, etc........Just PICK ONE and go kill something.

Well I am aware that they will all kill, I admit that I am a novice with cast boolit effectiveness. I basically want opinions on what caliber/rifle combo works best on large game out to 150 yards. The 30/30 with top jacketed bullets IMOP is at its max at 200 yards. Some may say different but I would not feel comfortable taking a shot longer with the 30/30 especially for bear.

[outdoorfan]

Well I am aware that they will all kill, I admit that I am a novice with cast boolit effectiveness. I basically want opinions on what caliber/rifle combo works best on large game out to 150 yards. The 30/30 with top jacketed bullets IMOP is at its max at 200 yards. Some may say different but I would not feel comfortable taking a shot longer with the 30/30 especially for bear.


You're in Pennsylvania, then you have the potential for really big blackies. I would forgot the 30/30, even though it can kill just fine if things all line up for you. Out to 150 yards I would consider the .444 and .454 because they have a much bigger margin for error.

Ok, now I'm just babbling...sorry!

[Bullshop]

Chek with Jes Ocumpaugh at Jes reboring. He often gets in 30/06 rifles with poor bores and he re-bores them to 375/06.
His prices are generally well below the limit you have set here. And consider that if you get one from him it will have a fresh new bore.

[nekshot]

I might be transplanted from pa, but when it comes to hunting my heart is still in those Appalachian mountains. All the deer I harvested there would have easily fallen to the 35 remmy. If magnumitize still got you then go with a 35 whelen.

[clintsfolly]

What??? 3 pages and no love for the 9.3x62!!! More like a 35Whelen imp Clint

[Bullshop]

9.3x62 lacks the commonly available brass trait of 30/06 based cartridges. Its a good cartridge sure enough but I think the OP set the criteria for commonly available brass which means to me brass that I find left behind where people shoot.
30/06 based cartridges fit the criteria.

[nekshot]

we're a snobby lot and don't have time for that metric stuff........just kidding!

[Bullshop]

Well maybe its a little true, just a little.

[onceabull]

Jesse O. will make you a 9.3x62 just like mine( an amish machine gun ) for the same price as a 375/06 ,if that what it takes to float your boat....Onceabull

[ammohead]

+1 for the 9.3x62. Love mine and it will shoot accurate and powerful. However....not too many .366 moulds out there or gas checks. But a real contender in power and accuracy. Brass is easily made from 30-06.

[Mk42gunner]

.30 to .40 caliber + under 100 yards + under $650 + boolits = Marlin 336 in .35 Remington. Most of them are 20" carbines, but there are 24" rifles out there.

Sighting options range from the stock open sights through the various receiver sights to scopes. If you think you will ever want a scope on it; I would buy one that is already drilled and tapped, instead of drilling an original. Small straight tubed scopes don't throw the balance off too badly.

For boolits the RCBS 35-200-FN works well in both of mine.

If you want a bolt gun, there are short chambered barrels for .35 Rem avilable for the small ring Mausers, but unless you can do the work yourself, the cost can easily get out of hand. Same for building a .358 Winchester or .35 Whelen, on larger actions.

Robert

[nekshot]

amishmachine gun! I totally forgot I relieved a pa fella of one of those in 35 remmy and its here somewhere. Yep, another stroke for the 35 remmy.

[RobS]

If at 150 yards and under with the majority of shots under 100 yards I would have no problems with my 454 Casull Lever Action however if I want scoped with clear precision at 150-200 yards and beyond I would take out my 375 H&H. The 375 H&H is a very versatile cartridge for cast shooting. Another thought, the 375 Ruger is another one that is pretty much a ballistic twin to the 375 H&H.

[grampa243]

One thing I failed to mention that you did, I should have stated in my opening question the availability of brass for said cartridges. It wont do me any good if i find the rifle but cant find the brass. I am leaning towards the 45-70. They seem to be readily available and from what I have read can be reloaded multiple times.

vmathias-

I have 45-70 brass that i have lost count on the number of reloads. [8-10 i think]

you can load a round ball load for fun shooting. check this out- http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?22804-Round-ball-in-45-70&p=2156945&viewfull=1#post2156945

or you can go up to 500 grain killer loads. I like a 300-350 grain load for deer. and 405gr. for the bigger things.

if you scope it make sure you get as much eye releaf as posable. a nice ported barrel like the guide guns have is nice to save the body from recoil.:)

[sharpsguy]

I keep waiting for somebody to mention the 40-65. It is a stone cold killer with a 403169 Lyman bullet. You don't see many of them, but Winchester chambered the 1886 in this caliber. You see it mostly in blackpowder Sharps and Remington rollers, as it is a popular silhouette cartridge. Brass is formed from 45-70, and one trip through the sizing die does the trick. NO recoil, and accurate with either black or smokeless powder, it is a cartridge designed for cast bullets.