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Frank46
08-10-2005, 11:15 AM
How do the adams & bennet barrels stack up against douglas bbls. Midway has the 35 cal rifle bbl for sale at about $90 versus about $130 for the douglas. Any pros or cons??.

Bass Ackward
08-10-2005, 11:47 AM
How do the adams & bennet barrels stack up against douglas bbls. Midway has the 35 cal rifle bbl for sale at about $90 versus about $130 for the douglas. Any pros or cons??.

Frank,

This has been hashed before. The name is the biggest component. Then steel quality. A more fair question should be is there a $40 difference in the quality. If I were buying it .... yes.

But for $40 more I would buy a Shilean over the Douglas. 8, lead driving, lands compared to 6.

Does that mean you can't get a good A&B? No. But I like better odds.

Herb in Pa
08-10-2005, 01:13 PM
Frank,

This has been hashed before. The name is the biggest component. Then steel quality. A more fair question should be is there a $40 difference in the quality. If I were buying it .... yes.

But for $40 more I would buy a Shilean over the Douglas. 8, lead driving, lands compared to 6.

Does that mean you can't get a good A&B? No. But I like better odds.

I most definitely agree with you Bass, when you consider the expenses incurred in the chambering and installation as well as the likelyhood of getting a good shooter the price difference is well worth it. Lots of guys rave about ER Shaw barrels - you and I live close enough to drive there without much problem - that thought has never crossed my mind. Give me a Hart an Obeyermeyer or a Shilen any day. I really wouldn't throw stones at a Douglas either!

StarMetal
08-10-2005, 02:25 PM
Herb

I put a Shaw barrel on my custom 260 Rem Arisaka. It shoots most all condoms under 3/4 inch at 100 meters. I've got one of 45 2.1's cast bullets shooting into an inch. Anyone can make a good barrel, it's whether they want to take the time, good steel, and good machinery to do it.

Joe

Bass Ackward
08-10-2005, 04:37 PM
I most definitely agree with you Bass, when you consider the expenses incurred in the chambering and installation as well as the likelyhood of getting a good shooter the price difference is well worth it. Lots of guys rave about ER Shaw barrels - you and I live close enough to drive there without much problem - that thought has never crossed my mind. Give me a Hart an Obeyermeyer or a Shilen any day. I really wouldn't throw stones at a Douglas either!


Herb,

Yes, you are correct. The other fees involved make the barrel a minor part of the cost. I did not want anyone to presume that I think there is anything wrong with Douglass at all. Nope. It's just that for .004 tall rifling, 8 have more drive area than 6.

And ER Shaw makes some good barrels. As good as a good one is though, a bad one will be bad. Usually they have a very rough finish. Too rough for lead without 1000 rounds of jacketed. But you can't argue with their prices.

StarMetal
08-10-2005, 04:56 PM
Bass,

When's the last time you bought or looked at a Shaw barrel? You're wrong about them being rough. As good and smooth bore as I've seen on just about anything. Shaw had a bad reputation long ago for rough barrels. They aren't making them the same way anymore. They are button rifled and you really don't get a rough barrel that ways as with cut rifling. My bore on my 260 looked like glass or chrome, smooth as could be and when I patched it the patch glided through like it was silk.

I'm not sticking up for them, but unless you have had a recent barrel I wouldn't be bad mouthing them.

Joe

Bass Ackward
08-10-2005, 05:48 PM
Bass,

When's the last time you bought or looked at a Shaw barrel? You're wrong about them being rough. I'm not sticking up for them, but unless you have had a recent barrel I wouldn't be bad mouthing them.

Joe

Joe,

ER Shaw is in Bridgeville. That's 12 miles up the road from me. I know how they make the barrels. I know how they thread them. I know how they chamber them. And ..... I know what they look like inside. But you really need a bore scope to look inside. And you need to send some barrels off to labs to test things like twist rate and dimensional consistency and such. They don't report very well. They can't for how they crank them out and sell so cheap.

Button rifling is cheapest rifling method and THE WORST for lead because the tool marks are always perpendicular to the bore because of the button. The tool marks act like a file unless smoothed with jacketed or some form of lapping. Cut rifled is always parallel with the bore. Cut rifling is superior for lead. But cut rifled barrels are twice the price of buttoned too because they take much longer to make and the operator has to have more knowledge to operate the equipment.

Read my post again. I never said that they made a bad barrel. But the percentage of ones that don't shoot .... or wouldn't .... be good for lead because of dimensional abnormalities without extensive shooting with jacketed is higher than other makers. Sorry, thats my experience.

This is .... a lead board. So my recommendations are based on such.

Bret4207
08-10-2005, 06:59 PM
I have to agree on the button rifled barrels. A good one can be fine, but a bad one will be as bad or worse than a poorly cut rifles barrel. The only thing that can, not will, but can be worse is the mandrel formed barrels if they have loose spots. Now that will drive you crazy!

Bret4207
08-10-2005, 07:04 PM
Hit the submit button somehow. Sorry.

I was going to say that I read Harry Popes description of how he cut a barrel. He said that when he pulled the cutter through the only evidence of the cutter having passed the first time was that the cutting oil was discolored. He figured he wa cutting .0005-8 per pass. And I counted the zeroes. Thats what he said. You won't get that now. Too expensive. Thats where the tool marks come from, taking too deep a cut. But that keeps them in business.

Willbird
08-10-2005, 07:19 PM
I myself have always liked Hart bbls, but Brownells has Shilen in stock and the most accurate rifle I have chambered yet is in 22-250AI and it is a Shilen stainless 1-14 bbl, has shot some groups in the .2's and that in a hunter BR stock.

Cut rifling from what I hear is quite difficult to do right, and consistantly do right, not sure how many BR matches are won with cut rifled bbls.....lots of high power matches are tho.


Bill

StarMetal
08-10-2005, 09:34 PM
Oh Christ John!, now we're looking at the bores under a 100,000x electron microscope, sending the barrels off to the top scientific labs around the world to each major country. I don't care if you sleep with E.R.Shaw. Living 12 miles away doesn't mean **** to me. I suppose you're over there so much they have a coffee cup with your name on it. They aren't the same the company they use to be. They are in some big arms manufacturing thing now, really turning out the products. Now when I say button rifling is fairly smooth I guess I'll have to relate to an electron microscope. Come on John, this is gettig to be rocket science ********. We're milsurp cast shooters, antique arms cast shooters, hunting revolver cast shooters, run of the mil semi-auto pistol cast shooters. Yeah of course if someone is REAL competive in the competive games they are going to buy the best gun they can get. This is all suppose to be just fun. For the average person wacking out a not enough average wage, or on retirement, can afford the top smiths in the country nor the top barrels from around the world. There is quite a difference in price, not just a few bucks, between E.R. Shaw and Douglas, Shilen, and Hart and that doesn't include the even better more expensive barrels. Now you tell me, I wanted a gun built on the Jap Type 38 Arisaka action. I didn't want to put no $300 dollars in the barrel alone. I only wanted a rifle that would shoot half decent enough groups at 100 meters and for deer hunting. Well I got that from Shaw. Like I said it cuts 3/4 inch groups with most all the major bullet makers and so far 1 inch groups with 45 2.1's cast bullets. Shaw trued the face of the receiver, cut the barrel lenght to what I wanted, bead blasted it, satin blued it, polished the bolt and trigger to bright metal, and installed a new scope friendly bolt handle for under $300 bucks easy. I was impressed with I saw it. I put it in a classic Boyd walnut stock. The rifle has made me as happy as if it would have been a Douglas, Shilen, or Hart barrel.

I'll tell you another thing. It's damn hard for one of the top barrel makers to make a barrel to out shoot Remington's or Savages, considering that those two manufacturers make production line barrels. Yeah, they have had their ups and downs, but Rem and Savage are pretty damn consistant on their barrels. I've seen some really amazing groups from both. We're not talking about how they put the rifle together, we're just talking their barrels.

Joe

Willbird
08-10-2005, 09:37 PM
MROliver 77 had an arisaka like that, we used a $99.00 shilen unturned blank from Brownells, thay have went up to like $116.00 last time I looked. worked great. It is probably the only barrel block bedded arisaka with an old Hart 3 piece BR stock in henry County Ohio chambered in 7.62x39

Bill

Jumptrap
08-11-2005, 12:01 AM
Oh Christ John!, now we're looking at the bores under a 100,000x electron microscope, sending the barrels off to the top scientific labs around the world to each major country. I don't care if you sleep with E.R.Shaw. Living 12 miles away doesn't mean **** to me. I suppose you're over there so much they have a coffee cup with your name on it.
Joe

JOE.....shhhh, Joe! c'mon back over here and sit down, it's okay, calm down...take your medicine. Better? Ah, much better now. I'll see to it you get extra mustard for your biscuits and a fresh housecoat. how's that? Just don't pay so much attention to John...he lost his favorite pocket protector last night. We must all try to be happy here.

Bullshop
08-11-2005, 03:23 AM
Joe
I gotta go with you on this one. If you remember the group project thread about my old Savage single shot action, and that I got an A&B barrel on a Midway sell out for $90.00. Well I had doubts but it turned out to be a good one. Like you said to my unmagnified eye it looks smooth and shiney. I didn't do any break in whatever and it shoots fine with no leading. Shure I woulda liked to have a big name barrel but as it is I waited a long time to afford this one. If I had decieded to narrow the odds the old Savage would still be in the corner and I would still be shakeing my head when ever I walked by. Kinda like Lee products, shure its nice to have the best equipment but if it wasn't for Lee many people wouldn't be casting or loading.
BIC/BS

Bass Ackward
08-11-2005, 07:36 AM
Now when I say button rifling is fairly smooth I guess I'll have to relate to an electron microscope. Come on John, this is gettig to be rocket science ********. Joe

Joe,

I am so glad that you have no emotional attachment here. Because if you did, it would ruin your ability to comprehend.

Buttons are pulled through steel. Softer steels are easier than hard. But softer steel can stretch if a harder spot is encountered. Picture pulling taffy. What happens is that if you had a 10 twist barrel, it has a certain angle to the lands. At the stretched part the angle changes and maybe you have a 11" twist angle at that point. When the button clears that area, the angle goes back to the 10" twist angle.

When a cast bullet encounters this spot, the rifling widens the track in the bullet and gas starts escaping up side of the bullet. A detriment to cast. The barrel can not be lapped to correct for this. When jacketed is shot, that portion where the angle is changed will wear away eventually. The rifling will always be thinner in this area and leakage will always occur unless the bullet is heavy enough (long enough) that the front part of the bullet seals again before back part breaks it seal. If this occurs out torwards the muzzle the other rifling have to pick up the drive slack. If the bullet is hard enough to handle it. This is another reason you have the old time cast line, "Always shoot the heavier bullets per caliber."

The larger companies screen for this. In truth, they still slip by, but at a reduced rate. Even when you hear a barrel is air guaged, this can be misleading. If no standard is mentioned, it only means it was air guaged. The rifling can be shorter than .004 and often is. One can be lower than the others if the button only caught on one side. As the button gets to the end of the barrel, the weight of the rod pulls down on the button changing the dimensions of the bore always to the large side. Some manufacturers cut this off. But that means you need a longer more expensive blank. Sometimes the wrong end gets identified for the direction the button was pulled through. I had a Savage barrel like that. And I suspect in a Remington 30-06 that took 500 rounds of jacketed to smooth up that would blow primers with a cast bullet at 34,000 psi.

The bigger companies generally compensate for the most of these possibile defects. That's what you get, because that's what you pay for. That's what the screening process identifies, that's what you take your chances on. Shilean still recommends that at LEAST 2" be cut off their barrels so you order accordingly. All of these things will be a detriment to cast long before seen with jacketed. It costs the same amount of time and labor to barrel up an action. The only monitary difference is the price of the tube. Ya spins the wheel, ya takes yer chances.

We just screwed off a Shilean two days ago that is going back for evaluation. Won't hold 2" with factory ammo. If credit is not given, we eat that barrel. Happens a few times a year. Two days barreling that up, that are gone out the window. No compensation. So don't tell me I don't understand what I am talking about? If all you expect is something to exit the barrel when a round is set off, then the world is full of barrel makers and options for you. But common sence would also dictate that if the is your standard, buy the Savage or Mauser for $270 and get the stock for free. Why even go the re-barrel route?

BABore
08-11-2005, 08:15 AM
I just got my barreled action back from Shaw a few weeks ago. I had the original Model 70 Super Grade 300 WM rebarreled to 375H&H. I haven't shot it yet as I'm in the middle of stock work, but the bore is very smooth. It is heads and tails better than a stock Rem. or Win. bore and almost comparable to my Bulberry 338 Encore barrel which is hand lapped. That said, the proof will be in the actual shooting in a couple of weeks.

I ended up paying $318 for the barrel, chambering and test firing, squaring the bolt face, matte blue finishing, and shipping. Shaw even reblued all of the hardware including the rings and mounts at no added cost. All of the work and barrel cost would have added up to $650 to $750 if I had went with a big name barrel. Since this rifle is going to be used for hunting, I was willing to take a chance on Shaw. I will eventually try cast in this rifle, but plan to just use jacketed for the time being.

carpetman
08-11-2005, 09:31 AM
Bass Ackwards---I think I am reading you correctly in that if it says air guaged,but doesnt say to what specs then it's an ambiguous statement. How often you see Genuine Top Grain leather stamped on articles? Sounds impressive. Must be high quality good stuff. The side of the animal the hair grew on is grain side (other side flesh side),the grain side can have a certain amount of corrections(sanding etc)and still be top grain. About all "Genuine top grain leather" really means is that the article is not suede. Not an ounce of bearing on quality. Has nothing to do with how it was tanned either--vegetable tanned or oil tanned etc.

felix
08-11-2005, 09:32 AM
A barrel either shoots or it doesn't. It's the call of the owner. And, it does indeed depend on the nature of the sport on how accurate a gun has to be. For example, offhand beer cans at 80-100 yards is plenty accurate enough for a lever gun barrel. ... felix

StarMetal
08-11-2005, 10:30 AM
Jumptrap,

You're new John Deere is a *** because the cylinders weren't made and bored by Shilen, Douglas, Hart or some other big name. Sorry pardner. You may notice that when you're cut cast grass fields that bore is alittle rough and you may not be getting as much mileage out of that oh so expensive diesel fuel. Did JD tell you if those cylinders were air gauged?

Let's go over and sit in the corner and put down a few cold ones. In the mornin we'll have some biscuits and gravey and then we'll start on tuning that JD up, pillar bedding, free float the cylinder..oh yeah make sure the throats are right. Hey you got an electron microscope? Wanta make sure we hone those cylinders smooth.

Joe

Bullshop
08-11-2005, 12:29 PM
Bass Akward
Admittedly I am a simple minded man and my depth of understanding is a scratch on the surface so I am having trouble with this. Your explaination of the changing twist and consiquent gas leakage sounded good until I started thinking about one of my most favorite names in cast boolit shooting history, Mr. Harry Pope. Everyone knows the history and that old Harry was a master, but some may not know that some of his best barrels were gain twist. With a gain twist there will be the same conditions you described for changing rifling pitch but there was apparently no gas leakage in Pope barrels. Perhaps this had something to do with the shallow groove (micro groove) rifling he used, or rounded bottom or rachet/angled bottom grooves. I dont know, as I said I cant fatham it all but as always I end up thinking that someones neatly packaged explanation doesn't tell the whole story of what is happening. No offence intended here but I think we will end up the way we did with our long ago lube discussion that there are still some blanks in the story to be filled in.
BIC/Friend/BS

Scrounger
08-11-2005, 12:43 PM
Bass Akward
Admittedly I am a simple minded man and my depth of understanding is a scratch on the surface so I am having trouble with this. Your explanation of the changing twist and consequent gas leakage sounded good until I started thinking about one of my most favorite names in cast boolit shooting history, Mr. Harry Pope. Everyone knows the history and that old Harry was a master, but some may not know that some of his best barrels were gain twist. With a gain twist there will be the same conditions you described for changing rifling pitch but there was apparently no gas leakage in Pope barrels. Perhaps this had something to do with the shallow groove (micro groove) rifling he used, or rounded bottom or ratchet/angled bottom grooves. I dont know, as I said I cant fathom it all but as always I end up thinking that someones neatly packaged explanation doesn't tell the whole story of what is happening. No offense intended here but I think we will end up the way we did with our long ago lube discussion that there are still some blanks in the story to be filled in.
BIC/Friend/BS

Your final words about "blanks to be filled in" is the big truth we all have to keep in mind. I think you are also correct in your feelings about shallow MicroGroove barrels. But I have to disagree with your theory regarding Pope and gain twist. An incident as B A described would produce one area of "stretched" rifling followed by a return to a shorter rifling. The gain twist starts out long and spirals shorter with each revolution, thereby sealing any gas leakage, at least in theory. At least that's the way I see it, but I'm sure Joe will tell me I'm wrong, and since I can't prove otherwise, I won't argue with him. There, Joe, saved you a post...

carpetman
08-11-2005, 12:49 PM
Jumptrap---That JD will probably atleast scratch the top inch or two of soil---unless they used Chevy parts in it.

Bass Ackward
08-11-2005, 01:01 PM
BA,

Great. Shaw has a place and a market niche in this world. And for jacketed we even recommend them to some folks. That's why they are still in business. And you can not beat their prices. We always wish everyone luck. Unfortunately, we see the other side too. Understand far more complaints are always heard than positive responses on anything.

Steel quality enters into my opinion too. Throats gone and the guy swears in less than 400 rounds. So by the time you get a barrel broken in , you can need a new one. Barrel makers have no control over that but it helps to use better steel. Better, harder, tougher steel doesn't lend itself to button rifling. Only hammer forging or cut rifling.


Ray,

Without any mention of standards for air guaged, it is like buying a used vehilce and the guy tells you it has never been wrecked. What does that say about it's mechanical condition? Even if a barrel says it is air guaged to within .0003 which is very tight, what does that say? That tells you the groove is that consistent of a dimension but not how far up. It doesn't say that the twist rate is consistent. Chatter marks? All of this affects lead performance.

All,

I find it really strange how guys will look at things and sometimes it takes discussions like these to bring them out. They recognize that there is a difference between a Charter Arms and a Freedom Arms anthough they are still machined on the same equipment. Or a difference between a Parker A grade and an 870 Express. But if a guy says that he trues up an action that means he did and it is. There are ways to chamber that can be done in 30 minutes or 2 days. But to say it makes no difference because it all looks the same and results in the same performance is incorrect. Or in essence to say that gas cutting is bad in the throat but it doesn't matter up the bore? What? Because that is exactly what we are talking about here.


Joe,

I never talked to a guy in my life that wanted re-barreled that said, please, I have layed awake at night dreaming that when you have done your best, that it will shoot like a Mil-Surp. Made me laugh.

Bullshop
08-11-2005, 01:13 PM
Scrounger
Wasn't offering a theory just addmiting an inability to comprehend.
BIC/BS

Jumptrap
08-11-2005, 01:39 PM
Jumptrap,

Let's go over and sit in the corner and put down a few cold ones. In the mornin we'll have some biscuits and gravey and then we'll start on tuning that JD up,
Joe


Hehe, too funny! I'll go for the biscuits and gravy any day.

I had 3 rifles built with those A&B barrels and have never shot any of them..much. But, the pipefitter told me they looked as good as any he ever looked at internally. But, the proof is in the pudding....time will tell. Like Felix said........a good barrel is a good barrel. Dimensional tolerances are a great step in the right direction, but no guarantee of performance. I've shot some guns that absolutely should not have done so well....but they did just the same. Why? damned if I know. A Chink in Factory 26 can turn out a superior barrel and it may be by accident....but if he does, he does. I've got Douglass barrels that shoot okay but no better than most factory tubes. For what I do, most any will suffice. The application of BR technique to a dirt clod blaster is stupidity in my opinion. Hell, when i was a boy....all we had were .22 single shots and we never questioned who made the barrels or how....but they shot really good...really hurt when somebody outshot you with your own gun! By and large the old remingtons did the best.....but I'll bet my last nickel they never seen an air gauge or anything else. You learn to shoot what you have. I have an old stevens model 15 single shot....a real cheapo..and no, it won't hold a candle to my Anschutz 54....but, I've lost count of the dead critters that gun has accounted for...more than the Anschutz by far.

StarMetal
08-11-2005, 02:06 PM
Bass,

You said this: Great. Shaw has a place and a market niche in this world. And for jacketed we even recommend them to some folks. That's why they are still in business.

Damn, ya'll a right nice fellow to keep E.R. Shaw in business. I just gotta shake your hand, especially for a fellow that thinks their product is **** compared to the likes of Douglas, Shilen, Hart, and some of those fancy European barrels.

You're dead wrong about Shaw barrels are too rough for lead without at least a thousand rounds of jacketed through them. When I first my my bastard 6.5 I didn't realize that you couldn't push the velocity envelope with that caliber, well at least not with the Swedes and their faster twist. So....I was shooting damn near 3 grand with lead and guess what? No leading!! But how would there be Bass...the barrel was shot out in less then 400 rounds in that batch of 1000 jacketed I was shooting through it to smooth OUT the rifling. Sure smoothed it out alrighty.

You're in over your head and Jumptraps John Deere isn't even going to pull you out. Now if Jump had to spread you his John Deere sure does have a niffly manure spreader that can be hooked up to it.

Joe

Bass Ackward
08-11-2005, 02:18 PM
Scrounger
Wasn't offering a theory just addmiting an inability to comprehend.
BIC/BS

Dan,

This converstaion is not meant to convince anyone of anything. Only to get people to think.

What about a gain twist? How fast was Mr Pope running? Was his pressure increasing as the twist rate changed or was it dropping? If it is dropping, then a seal doesn't have to be as strong and maybe drive grip is more important to soft lead. When twist rate increases the rifling is digging into new metal as it rotates the bullet faster. Low rifling height space can be filled with bore fouling as the bullet procedes ahead to maintain a weak seal? Who knows for sure. The gain twist was an idea long before Mr Pope and basically went no where at a time lead was the game. That could be for several reasons, none of which have anything to do with actual performance.

Take a bullet that you have recovered and look at the imprint. That angle is cut by a certain twist rate. Now look at a slower twist rate if you have one. Picture in your mind what over laying those two would look like if the rate varried. Then think about these questions. What is going to fill that space? What would that do to gas seal, bullet balance, aerodynamics, and could you get muzzle leading? Instead of 6 lands driving in unison, you may only have 5. Or 4. What would that do to rotational force ability of a certain hardness level? How would that limit your velocity potential with a particular hardness mix? Are you still going to get 2" groups or 2 feet?

To me, twist rate consistency for lead is as or more important as any other dimension because you can't obturate to fill that space uniformly. Once stripped, your done. Especially when you want more pressure to go faster. Or faster, softer. And why some guns can .... and some can't no matter what tricks you employ.

StarMetal
08-11-2005, 02:26 PM
Art

The main intention of gain twist rifling, as I understand it, is to gentley start the bullet moving then speed it's spin up as it travels further down the barrel. There's something about it becoming because of some of the long lead bullets that needed a faster twist. I don't see how there would be a better seal as it the bullet tranverses from the slow twist to the faster twist because the rifling size stays the same and only the twist rate changes. Also the farther the bullet is down the barrel the less the pressure becomes.

Bass

Buttons for rifling are both pulled and pushed, they all aren't necessarily pulled through a bore. How about this: Dan Lilja's barrels are button-rifled; he says the smooth interior finish and uniform depth of the grooves give this method an accuracy edge. Hmmmmmmmm another A&B and Shaw *** barrel, damn, and I thought they were good barrels.

Joe

Bass Ackward
08-11-2005, 03:10 PM
Bass,

You said this: Great. Shaw has a place and a market niche in this world. And for jacketed we even recommend them to some folks. That's why they are still in business.

You're in over your head and Jumptraps John Deere isn't even going to pull you out. Now if Jump had to spread you his John Deere sure does have a niffly manure spreader that can be hooked up to it.

Joe

Joe,

I am in over my head? :grin: Could be! Thanks for being concerned.

But I'll bet that if you reread my posts you are going to feel bad for telling me my opinion is ignorance based. But so what, a lot of people make decisions all the time in life that are ignorance based. Why can't I be one? :grin:

Rougher? Yes, I said that. But rougher is an accurate term for a total description of less overall precision and not just groove finish that you can see. Did I ever say that has any of that affects or guarantees jacketed accuracy? Does a little blow by hurt jacketed? Are most accuracy catagories dominated by Shaw barrels? Are any? For re-barreling, if you won a free barreling job with the barrel of your choice would the Shaw be your first choice if dollars were unlimited or would you get down on your knees and beg for a Savage take off?

Cut me a break. :grin: They fill a niche. So did the Yugo. Was it reliable? Some people probably got there money's worth. Too many others didn't.

StarMetal
08-11-2005, 03:50 PM
Bass

Just about everything we buy today "fills a purpose". Do you drive a luxury car? Do you live in over a $800,000 home? Do you own a Leer Jet? Is your motorcycle a cafe racer Ducati? Do you own a John Deere tractor (hey, how'd that get in there har har har). Do NASCAR sponcers run regular Chevy, Ford, Chryler..and all the other crap out ..cars on the race circuit? No huh? Why don't we drive NASCAR cars for everyday commutes? Not suitable for the purpose huh? They fill a narrow market huh? How many of us here on this forum shoot professional cast bullet competition? Not alot I bet. If your bank gave you a free no limit ceiling to buy whatever car you wanted what would you get. That's a stupid question asking me if I would put a Shaw barrel on my rifle if I had a free gunsmith pass. How about this. Would I got to war with a rifle that had a Shaw barrel on it? YES I noticed you didn't touch this statement: Dan Lilja's barrels are button-rifled; he says the smooth interior finish and uniform depth of the grooves give this method an accuracy edge. Why not?

Joe
P.S. Yes you can be ignorant, we all can..and I didn't insinuate that John. Just discussing and making people think. Did I make you think? Are they bad thoughts about me? hehehehe

Oldfeller
08-11-2005, 05:04 PM
Can you have some coffee and molasses with your buscuit, or is that too likely to pick up some of the loose sand that's a flying around in this thread?

==========================================

Jump, I'm ashamed of you and Ray, just sitting on the edge of the sandbox like that permitting Bass & Joe to have all the fun all by their lonesomes.

Of course, you could be considered to be cheerleading, which is a good thing depending on if somebody can actually figure out which side you are on.

=========================================

Now, I am on the side that button rifling CAN be good rifling if it is the style that pulls both the groove bottoms and the land tops into contact with the button form. These types of button forms share some simularities with pull broaches except they really do not cut, they form by several stages.

Lets see, we got simple button (groove bottoms or bore wall diameter only) which can leave irregular land heights and the original as-reamed surface finish on top of them lands which can be kinda rough. These barrels might be undesirable unless fire-lapped.

(hand lapping is a joke -- I've tried to do it and it don't doooooo dooooodley unless you want to spend weeks a doing it.

..... GOOD RIFLING ....

We got complex form draw button forming, which is better.

We got pull broached, which can be real crude or real nice (depending on who did the broach and how it is used).

We got hook riflled (single hook, indexed) which is expensive and pricey (Bass food)

We got hammer forged over a mandrel (Steyr uses it)

We got hydraulic formed over a mandrel (most commercial rifles use it now)

Then we got polygonal formed, generally hydraulic over a mandrel

And then we got the stuff that can hit a target at the size of your headbone fired at 3 miles out from the barrel of a top secret smooth bored military McMillian specialty "rifle" -- one which uses an articulated mobile nose cone section on the bullet which cocking over to one side to go a seeking out an infared laser dot which is being shined right between your eyes by somebody what has snuck up much much closer to you.

Yup, the worlds most accurate long distance rifles don't even have rifling in them any more.

Sheeeeeit boys, the most powerful projectile guns in the world now-a-days don't even got a barrel anymore.

=============================================

Hey Joe, if you ain't gonna use that bucket full of sand on Bass, pass her over here to me -- I wanna build me a sandcastle.

Oldfeller

StarMetal
08-11-2005, 05:19 PM
HAMMER FORGE!!!!! POUND ON A BARREL!!!!!!! DAMN!!! Bass...you hear that?? My God!!!! Okay everyone...biscuits and gravey at Joe's farm one week from now while I go over the finer points of button rifling to you all, or as Sundog would say, all ya'll.

No it's my sand and it's special. It's outta the sand bag I shoot my one ragged hole groups with. Go play with Jump and his tractor.

Joe

Bullshop
08-11-2005, 05:42 PM
This is a great thread, I love it!
BIC/BS

carpetman
08-11-2005, 06:45 PM
The original question was should I spend $90 for a Shaw or $130 for a Douglas? If this is a question of $90 for a Timex or $130 for a Seiko--I'd say Seiko. If it were question of $90 for Timex or $17,000 for a Rolex,I'd say get the Timex. I know someone has a Timex that keeps excellent time. But I have Seiko that still keeps excellent time and I've used it about 25 years---so I would spend a little more to get one over a Timex. Same is true of a whole lot of things. I can buy a Riceomatic ratchet that will turn a socket or I can buy a Proto(sadly today's Proto is Riceomatic) or even a Snap On. Now this gain twist---is that where the idea for rappers to spin a record back and forth came from? Maybe this thread is like the gasoline powered bee. They fill up by licking the drops of gas that get spilled. There was one that was low on fuel and went by one station,then went by a second station and was dangerously low on fuel when he fueled up at the the third station. His friends asked why? Well he said.(It was a talking bee to boot). The first station was A Texaco. The second one was Exxon and the third one was an Esso. That proves there is an Esso bee in most every crowd.

Willbird
08-11-2005, 07:31 PM
I'd throw down and git the gooder bbl............


Bill

waksupi
08-11-2005, 07:43 PM
I remember reading that Pope and his cronys never did decide wheter the gain twist was any better than straight twist.

StarMetal
08-11-2005, 07:50 PM
What is a $130 Douglas, one of their rejects? I can't believe a Douglas that cheap is any better then a Shaw. I'm not saying Douglas isn't better then Shaw, I'm saying I can't see how they can sell a world match rifle barrel for that price.

Could it be that $130 Douglas must be like Chevy's top car use to be the Impala and then you could buy a cheaper Impala (basically as the models were the same car, just different trim and accessories) like a Biscayne and that's what the $130 Douglas is...a biscayne? Now if Chevy said I could have a Corvette for $40 more you better believe that's what I'd take too.

Joe

Jumptrap
08-11-2005, 09:19 PM
I ain't gettin' into this pissing contest....mines a smoothbore and i hit the seat all too often. Of course that could be related to being a snubnose as well!

But, what difference does it make how them spirals are made? I've been to Douglas' place and watched them make barrels....ho-hum. Not much different than touring a body shop in my estimation. But, they turn out a decent product. I can only imagine that most of pipe shops are the same. Seems I recall reading that remington turns out a barrel in a couple of minutes......I've had some dandies from them. Most of the AR barrels are broached...they work well enough. Most folks own at least one old mil-surp and claim pretty decent results.....you think for a minute those barrels got any special treatment? HAR!

Even barrels from the big names fail to produce...ask Felix, he was a BR man. Those guys change barrels like racers do pistons...some shoot and some just won't.

Throwing money at something doesn't promise a fix. granted, you'd think those extra dollars were buying something and probably they do. I'd bet a $25 remongton take off would satisfy 99% of us for what we do.

Oldfeller
08-11-2005, 09:19 PM
Now Joe, ya done gone and invited everybody to come visit you again.

Fall is coming up and I got some time off around the third week of October. Now, both you and Jump live sorta kinda close to each other so maybe we could organize us a little shoot at one or the other of your farms.

Yo, Jumptrap -- is your invite still open to come to your place for a wee little small friendly day shoot? Yours or Joe's, it don't matter.

Carpetbee, Joe wants to show us all some Starmetal-style single ragged hole group shooting and he's planning on saving all the sand that comes out of the single ragged hole in the target sandbag just for you .....

(to eat one grain at a time in public).

Joe needs him some witnesses and the Carolina/Tennessee mountains sure are pretty in the fall time.

What do you say guys?

Oldfeller

StarMetal
08-11-2005, 09:39 PM
Now wait a dang dog gone burn minute Jump. Haven't you ever stood on a bridge with your pals and had a pissing contest. Sure you have. Now step up, unzip, and whoop it out...err I mean pluck it out in your case. har har har On those milsurp barrels shooting good, well those are circumsized rifling, that is they are cut. That's the kind of rifling Bass likes, circumsized. He don't like noboby pullin or pushin a button through his tube...ouch oh man!

Joe

Jumptrap
08-11-2005, 10:04 PM
He don't like noboby pullin or pushin a button through his tube...ouch oh man!

Joe[/QUOTE]

Joe, you ain't lived until you had a button pushed in your tube. Been there and done that. You'd be amazed at what will fit in a small bore! Yeah....hurts like hell and makes sweat pop out on your forehead like beads of shot.

waksupi
08-11-2005, 10:06 PM
"Most folks own at least one old mil-surp and claim pretty decent results.....you think for a minute those barrels got any special treatment? HAR!"

Now, Jumptrap, didn't you ever read "Hell, I was there", by Elmer? He rejected all kinds of barrels at the arsenals, so some inspector work was going on.

You guys is funny. Keep it up. Although that sounds like it may be a problem for some of you...

Herb in Pa
08-11-2005, 10:14 PM
This has been quite a thread. I've got one of them thar hammerforged 5R remington 308's. I haven't shot anything but condoms in it yet, but boolits are in it's future. It's a 24" with 11.25" twist.

Oldfeller
08-11-2005, 10:33 PM
Durn, we musta run them sissy-boys off what with whupping out & all. Or maybe it was the possibility of eat'n sand part they didn't like.

Or maybe it was Jumptrap twiddling around with that sharpened pointy twig of his, askin' iffin it would hurt if inserted up the nose of your pet snake, I dunno ... mebbe?

Or Joe shooting them little bitty groupies inna that there sand bag of his using that Sako 7mm-08 and a chucklin' as he was a spooning up the sand what trickled outta the raggedy single hole in the bag.

Who knows, this here sandbox jest ain't as crowded as it used to be.

Heck, we'se jest a having a bit o' fun, Office, we dunnit mean nothing by it .... Ain't nobody bleedn' as you can plainly see.

We is all reformed and genteel around these parts any more, don't cha know?

<g>

Oldfeller

floodgate
08-11-2005, 10:51 PM
Bass:

"The gain twist was an idea long before Mr Pope and basically went no where at a time lead was the game."

You're right; gain twist is an old idea, and one of many variations that were tried over the years. Another is "choking" the barrel by lapping so that it gets tighter (by a thousandth or two) as the bullet moves towards the muzzle, to maintain the seal; Pope did this, and so did - and a few still do - other makers; the pre-Civil War Model 1841 Harpers Ferry and Remington-made .54 caliber "Mississippi" rifles had grooves that got shallower towards the muzzle (the bore, in this case, stayed constant) for the same purpose. Even wilder variations were tried in the 1800's - and maybe earlier: regressive twist that got SLOWER towards the muzzle, so that as the bullet accelerated, it maintained the same rotation rate as it started with. I doubt that was any conceivable gimmick that was not tried by SOMEONE. One of the old books - by one of the Greeners, I think - described a barrel that was rifled with gain twist near the breech, straight twist in the middle, and then regressive twist in the forward section of the barrel. I dunno WHAT the theory behind that one was!

floodgate

Jumptrap
08-12-2005, 10:50 AM
"Most folks own at least one old mil-surp and claim pretty decent results.....you think for a minute those barrels got any special treatment? HAR!"

Now, Jumptrap, didn't you ever read "Hell, I was there", by Elmer? He rejected all kinds of barrels at the arsenals, so some inspector work was going on.

You guys is funny. Keep it up. Although that sounds like it may be a problem for some of you...

Yeah and that was one of the things that got Elmer sacked from inspectin'. he was doing his job as i recall and rejected a bunch of .50 cal. barrels and held up the shipment of BARs because of faulty innards. But, my point is, those barrels were turned out en masse for the war effort and pressed into service. Years later, folks like us wind up with them and seem satisfied with the way they puke bullets down range. I watched a film of a woman assembling a carbine in a WW2 defense plant......that damned thing was slung together in 2 minutes.....really! I am actually amazed that any of that stuff worked at all....but they had it down to a science. Most troops are ho-hum shots and most shots taken were not well aimed target practice.....had all the bullets shot hit their mark........the entire population of the Earth would have ben annihilated 9000 times over.

This discussion on accurate barrels reminds me of most of the other anal subjects that get discussed here. Now fellers, I like everyone of you....really, I do, but some of you have opinions that make my hemmorhoids itch and bleed. And, I am sure, that I do the same for some of you. Most folks spend too much time qouting the so-called experts and oft repeated BS found in magazines.....Precision Shooting being one. PS isn't some tablet handed down by God, to be regarded as Holy Writ......but most readers accept it as such. Then, the lower life forms who read Rifle and Handloader (considered infidels by the PS crowd) actively follow pork belly Venturino and the other resident scribes and swallow everything they spew as words emiited from the Stone of Knowledge.

Well, I am an adherent to empirical data.......you know, **** you've actually seen and done with your bare hands and know for a fact. Applying these principles to gun barrels will prove whether a $79 pipe is inferior to a $400 grooved tube. And, unless you do the whole anal rifle build ******** to compliment that fancy stainless steel downspout you screw on, that high dollar barrel won't shoot any better than the $79 will.

Now, for a fact....I was there......when I went to the Douglas shop, a friend of mine was with me. he managed to bum them out of a .257 caliber SCRAP barrel, dug out the dumpster. He took it home, threaded and chambered it to .257 Ackley and that scrap sporter barrel shot 1/2" groups....I saw that too. I think that barrel had chatter in it or something....anyway, they threw it away.

So lastly, this tome (always accused of penning Tomes) brings me to being in a shop and just listening to the conversations that go on. Some sap comes in wanting a bughole shooter. The 'Expert' behind the counter begins to extol the virtues of certain parts and just what must be done (ka-ching, ka-ching, goes the cash register), calls out all these goddamned tolerances and other associated 'make me look smart' lines of crap and I get nauseated and leave. Meanwhile, back in the 'shop' the sap stands there with that doe in the headlights stare swallowing all that **** and reaching for his Visa and saying.."here take it all, whatever you want, gimme one of them whatever you said guns". So, he gets sold a blueprinted 700 action with a tight necked 6 PPC stainless Hart bull barrel, all mounted in a hand laid fiberglass handle with a 2 ounce Jewell trigger and then $900 worth of glass on top. All this to shoot groundhogs. The dumb bastard who pays can't even shoot the damned thing, but some 'Expert' took his money and reeled his ass in. Makes me sick.

I've got plenty more to add, but may as well hush while I'm able to run.

Scrounger
08-12-2005, 11:10 AM
Great post, Jump. Unless you're shooting in a BenchRest Match, none of us need half inch rifles; what with wind and range and lighting conditions, the real world doesn't give us opportunities to squeeze that degree of accuracy out of a hunting rifle. And the shooter; one person in 50,000 can hold that well, even from a bench.

felix
08-12-2005, 11:27 AM
Yeah, Scrounger, some folks need the confidence afforded by what others think as the best. Who in their right mind would drive a 160 mph car to work everyday, even though work is only 5 miles from home? The car could be a 100,000 dollar Italian job, or even one of Joe's 3,000 dollar chevy 350's. Just how much status is needed for that feel good feeling? I just love it when someone has to BUY his position in life, as opposed to just living his God given class as intended by the Father!. ... felix

grumble
08-12-2005, 12:37 PM
Way to go, Jump! Couldn't agree more. There are times when the so-called "best" is worth the price, but for the most part, "good enuff" is good enuff. Whether one low-to-medium priced barrel is worth 40% more than another is totally up to the way the buyer feels (not thinks) about it.

Bass Ackward
08-12-2005, 09:02 PM
Way to go, Jump! Couldn't agree more. There are times when the so-called "best" is worth the price, but for the most part, "good enuff" is good enuff. Whether one low-to-medium priced barrel is worth 40% more than another is totally up to the way the buyer feels (not thinks) about it.

Guys,

Barrel quality means different things to different people simply because of how they are or aren't used. I would expect an Elk hunter to have a different opinion than a guy who shot prarie dogs. And a guy that keeps his guns in a safe is going to have a different opinion than a guy that shoots constantly. A guy shooting a 22 Hornet at 1" doesn't have the same outlook at a guy with a 220 Swift shooting 1/4".

A guy that is happy with shooting lead at 1800 fps does not have the same needs as someone who wants to go farther. That's why with cast one guy says heat treat everything over 2000 fps, and another says ACWW is good to 3000 fps. What's the difference? Well it can be lube and this and that, but you better believe barrel figures into that equasion. You can't do it, if it ain't up that tube. But you may not want to either. That's cool.

Better barrels are not imagination. And $40 can make a significant difference in quality. You know if you work with them. Better barrels are made of better steel. And better steel is not only tougher, but more consistent in composition. It machines better to tighter tollerances, including chambers. It often has smaller grain, contains less stresses, but not always. In essence, better steel machined exactly to exactly the same tollerances as cheap steel has a better "chance" to out shoot soft steel under all conditions with a lighter weight barrel. This leaves out barrel wear as a factor.

All I can tell you is 90% of the people that shoot accurate "sporter rifles" (not bench outfits) can shoot 1" down to 1/2" today with minimal to no instruction with boring repetition. If a gun is capable, it shoots for anyone. It shoots today, tomorrow, next year. It shoots factory ammo of several brands and weights, not just one brand, not just one weight, not just handloads. It shoots in a 20 MPH wind. Or at 20 degrees. Or at 120 degrees. It shoots like that with the first 5 shots or through 20. It shoots like that today or 20 years from now. THAT is a better barrel. You just have to want one.

felix
08-12-2005, 09:14 PM
BA, I think it really boils down to more of a need for a barrel quality rather than a desire for one. I desire a Mazeratti (sp), but surely don't need one. Heck, I can't even use one if I did have it. Well, if I lived in LAX and went back and forth weekly to LAS on business, then I MIGHT need one. ... felix

Larry Gibson
08-13-2005, 07:19 AM
Wow! What a pissin' contest! I'm not wanting to get into one here as I just got out of one on another forum. Just going to put in my two cents worth and stand clear. I've been rebarreling rifles since '69, mostly with Mausers of one sort or another. I've used Star barrels (I think Shaw bought them out), Shaw barrels, Douglas barrels, Shilen barrels, some unknown makes from various sources and A&B barrels. Had a few that only shot ok, 1 1/2 to 2 MOA but most of them shot quite well. With a properly bedded action and good handloads they mostly all ran around MOA or less. The heavy barrel varmint types all ran 1/2 MOA or close to it. This was with all the makes of barrels listed and is about as good as Mauser actions are going to do. There is more to accuracy than just the barrel. I've had quite a few military and factory rifles with original barrels shoot just as well. I’ve shot several of the barrels out, can’t say any give better life as it depends more on the cartridge/load than anything else.

Now if I was building a target/varmint rifle on an action of better accuracy capabilities then I would use the better more expensive of the barrels listed. Accuracy would be 1/2 MOA or better most often. However, I still can’t say the cheaper barrels wouldn’t do as good simply because I never used them in this application. I guess if I was a bench-rester I’d have even a more expensive barrel though as most of us will go with what the winners are using. Whether that is really the best in the context of the barrels and rifles we use for cast boolits is debatable.

My most recent rebarrel was with a Midway special A&B barrel. It was $89 I think and was a pre-threaded and short chambered 24” barrel in 30-06 for the M98. I had a commercial Huskvarna M98 in an old commercial sporter stock that needed a new barrel. Seemed like the thing to do at the time. With 180 gr Hornady SPBTs at 2790 fps it will put 5 into 1 MOA. It will also do it with 190 gr Hornady SPBTs at 2750 fps. Those are the same loads I've worked up to in several other Mauser rebarrels in '06. The Douglas, Shaw and Shilen barrrels all give right at that level of accuracy with those loads. I haven't found any factory rifles in '06 that will do any better with those two loads. Those were the only two condoms tried in that A&B barrel and I doubt there was a hundred of them shot working up to those loads.

Sometime last year someone sent (sorry, can’t remember who but I think it’s one of the parties involved here) me some boolits so I could disprove my RPM theory. Never disproved the RPM theory but I did shoot quite a few boolit groups into 1 to 1 ½ MOA at 1700-1900 fps. That is about right for a good ’06 with a 1-10 twist. The A&B barrel shoots just as good as the $200 Shilen barrel on another ’06 Mauser of mine. Both rifles wear quality 3x9 scopes. Then again I shoot close to the same size groups with the same loads in my M1903A3 Type II Match with its 4 groove Remington ’03 barrel and Lyman iron sights. I’ve yet to have leading with any of them regardless of type of manufacture. The rebarrel before the ’06 was with a Shilen barrel on a M91 Mauser in .35 Remington. Other than a few factory loads (less than a box) it only has had cast boolits through it. It shoots close to MOA (it has a Lyman receiver sight) also with no leading.

Who’s to say which is “best”? It sure beats the hell out of me.

Good shootin' guys, Larry Gibson

Bret4207
08-13-2005, 07:57 AM
So far we've established nothing here except some people can express their opinions without profanity and talking about their repoductive orgnans and others can't. I for one figure any mass produced item will be more or less acceptable for it's intended use given a reasonable amount of care in the manfacturing, except the 5% that are just lemons. That being said, I'll refer back to the original question and again state my belief that a cut barrel done right is always superior to a cut barrel done wrong. I will update my opinion on forged barrels and state that I haven't seen any new one in the last 7-8 years, but before that a lot of them had loose spots. Go to it boys.

Bass Ackward
08-13-2005, 09:14 AM
So far we've established nothing here except some people can express their opinions without profanity and talking about their repoductive orgnans and others can't. I for one figure any mass produced item will be more or less acceptable for it's intended use given a reasonable amount of care in the manfacturing, except the 5% that are just lemons. That being said, I'll refer back to the original question and again state my belief that a cut barrel done right is always superior to a cut barrel done wrong. I will update my opinion on forged barrels and state that I haven't seen any new one in the last 7-8 years, but before that a lot of them had loose spots. Go to it boys.


Bret,

Down get down. I get excited and participate in these threads because they always lead to education for me. Sometimes in ways I don't expect. I realized this topic has never gone very far in a cast forum. Now I think I understand why.

I guess because casters only want to consider those things that they can perform or control. Maybe it isn't the result, just the endless search. Or the bang. Cause guys will go out and spend way more money searching for that magic mold design, or powder, or sizing technique, or stuff for lubes than a new barrel or gun would ever cost.

But that is OK because we never want to say never. And as time passes, we change focus and that sometimes affects our opinions. There is always a first time for someone in the family here. Maybe someone will find themselves at that point in the future where something in this thread might be of benifit. Or they will PM someone for clarification.

No matter what decision they make. Because they started thinkin about it now, it will be the right one for them at that time. Even if the decision is NOT to do it. So it was worth while.

felix
08-13-2005, 10:07 AM
Bass, during my BR circuit days, I have seen too many brand new barrels screwed on and taken off just after three groups while at various the BR smithies on the east coast area. If they don't shoot, they never will, and time should not be wasted on them. I did not have enough sense to buy the take offs at the time, but I could have easily for a song or two. What I have learned is that finding that holy grail is very, very expensive, and that alone is one strong deterrent. That would be a barrel made to a cast boolit spec, such as high lands and slow twist. So, I cheapen the quest and go for a twist that exists with a barrel off of the shelf and take what I get. ... felix

StarMetal
08-13-2005, 11:00 AM
Bass,

A better barrel is not necessarily better steel made on better machinery and better this and better that. I believe it's like if you take a car engine, any brand, and have one that is factory built and then take another one and blueprint everything on it, the blueprinted one will run better. I think that is the same with anything. In other words I'm saying the top barrel makers are "blueprinting" there barrels. Some bad ones do escape them. What I mean is they make sure the bullet traveling with the direction of the grain in the steel, they make the bore as perfect as they can for the entire lenght, they make the chamber concentric to the bore, the threads are straight in their relationship to the barrel and their depth and everything about them is blueprint on. Same with the rest of the barrel features. To have a top shooting rifle the action must also be blueprinted, the bolt, the bedding, the stock, and the sighting arrangement. The factory guns are unblueprinted. Sometimes a really good one comes out of the factory. We've all heard this about cars.."Boy, they built that one right". You know Sako would only make their barrels from Bofors steel and they demanded that the barrel blanks had the direction of the steel grain marked. Word gets around about what steel you want to make a barrel from. The thing is how good a steel are the top barrel makers and the cheapo's really using? Winchester pioneered a new steel for their rifles early on. Wouldn't it be neat to know exacty what quality steel ALL the barrel manufactures really are using, who's to know that maybe the blanks might come from the same places that the cheaper barrel makers buy their's from.

I think it's better for an average fellow here, who has to toil hard for his meager wages. to buy a cheaper barrel and actually get to have a semi-custom rifle then not be able to afford one of the "better barrels" and never have the semi-custom rifle cause it's out of his finacial reach. You know, if someone gets that better barrel and better smith work and he shoots that rifle off the roof of his car, it was wasted money. How you shoot it or use it has alot to do with it too. Even if you're not using it for world match competition and just real real serious varmint shooting, if you have some flimsy ass bipod, and el cheapo scope, and just slam your reloads together, what good is that top name barrel?

You're right about different strokes for different folks thought.


Joe

Scrounger
08-13-2005, 11:58 AM
Bass, during my BR circuit days, I have seen too many brand new barrels screwed on and taken off just after three groups while at various the BR smithies on the east coast area. If they don't shoot, they never will, and time should not be wasted on them. I did not have enough sense to buy the take offs at the time, but I could have easily for a song or two. What I have learned is that finding that holy grail is very, very expensive, and that alone is one strong deterrent. That would be a barrel made to a cast boolit spec, such as high lands and slow twist. So, I cheapen the quest and go for a twist that exists with a barrel off of the shelf and take what I get. ... felix
Felix, do you think it is possible someone could buy a slow twist barrel and, using the proper tools, deepen the groove cuts to "raise" the lands as you specified above? Not me, I haven't the patience and dedication for that, but I think there are a few guys here who would be willing to try it, if it's possible, to get a super barrel.

felix
08-13-2005, 12:19 PM
Yeah, anything is possible, Scrounger, but not likely. Ideally, a barrel should show some gain twist to eliminate any chance of a flat, and should show some choke for the same reason. These things should be measurable by feel only and not necessairly be seen via a borescope. Barrels with these attributes have a much better chance of making the BR grade. That surely is not required for our kind of entertainment, but a fun barrel should shoot 1 inch at a hunnert when chambered with something having recoil. BR barrels made today (which make the grade) shoot 0.1 inch at hunnert, and are actually more accurate than today's scopes. That is, the competitive scopes should have a method to lock down the crosshairs to prevent any possible change in POA. Those kinds of errors are starting to show up now. Who would have thunk it. ... felix

NVcurmudgeon
08-13-2005, 12:26 PM
Without intending to hijack this thread, (there's the first lie) I see that Jumptrap and Scrounger have pointed out something that has recently dawned on me. When I retired, six years ago, I bought a semi-custom rifle that was to be a state of the art light rifle for the old man to carry to the top of the mountain and shoot the biggest buck. Accordingly, I ordered a Remington 700 laminated, stainless, Mountain Rifle in .260 Rem. with Leupold Vary X III 2 1/2 to 8X scope, from a gunsmith who specialized in buying factory rifles, evaluating them, then tuning them. This rifle is exactly as ordered, and more accurate than I expected. It is pillared, floated, action slicked, scope mount lapped and rings marked, and trigger adjusted to a crisp three lb. pull. If I hold it down on the bags properly, I can almost guarantee three-shot groups of .500" at 100 yds. It is also a thing of beauty to this beholder. In preparing for a combined deer/elk hunt this fall I have been doing a lot of practice shooting from field positions. I shoot my close to ten lb. rebarreled .35 Whelen Ruger 77 maybe the best I have ever shot any rifle from offhand and kneeling. The Remington? Not so good when I shoot it from real world hunting positions. I have zero confidence in this fine rifle for hunting. Truth is, my iron sighted NRA Sporter Springfield, also at nearly ten pounds, turns in much better scores, IN MY HANDS AND FROM FIELD POSITIONS, than does the semi-cusom .260. The rifles have spoken, the .35 Whelen and the .30/06 are going hunting and the Mountain Rifle will be safely at home, because the game deserves my best equipment and efforts. What this all has to do with expensive vs. economy priced barrels, I don't know, except to say that sometimes some gun nuts can be too smart by half.

Bret4207
08-13-2005, 02:23 PM
BA- You weren't one of the ones I was refering to. I thought you maintained your compsure rather well considering the insane, foul mouthed ravings of one of the members. 'Scuze me for being one of the stricter thinking members for those who find my offense at their offensive writing offensive, but we've usually been above that. No reason we can't disagree and still maintain a bit of decorum. I get paid to let people call me names and swear at me. I'd really rather not see it here.

waksupi
08-13-2005, 02:43 PM
It may not be as hard to get deeper rifling, as you think. Years ago, we would have barrels rifled .004 deeper than standard, from Montana Rifle Barrel Co. It was run by Jerry Cunningham, who now has Orion barrels. He's known for good thousand yard barrels. Check with him. you may be pleasantly surprised.

Herb in Pa
08-13-2005, 03:03 PM
Bass,

Even if you're not using it for world match competition and just real real serious varmint shooting, if you have some flimsy ass bipod, and el cheapo scope, and just slam your reloads together, what good is that top name barrel?

You're right about different strokes for different folks thought.


Joe
I tend to believe that folks who screw on a custom tube really don't skimp on the rest of the outfit or the proper preparation of the ammunition. Like you said, "Different strokes for different folks" It would be like putting recaps on a Ferrari - you could, but why would you want to??

StarMetal
08-13-2005, 04:02 PM
Trooper Bret,

I don't think the discussion was all that bad and I didn't see where anyone got called any names. Bass is right about disagreeing posts because like he said they make folks think. He's no dummy, he sits back thinks and gains knowledge on things......but that's nice to give Bass an "A" and let eveyone know he's not the stinker that's getting an "F".

Joe

Bret4207
08-13-2005, 06:02 PM
Never mind Joe, apparently I shot high and my point was missed. I'll cruise on over to Ebay now.........................

Bass Ackward
08-14-2005, 07:54 AM
I don't think the discussion was all that bad and I didn't see where anyone got called any names. Bass is right about disagreeing posts because like he said they make folks think. He's no dummy, he sits back thinks and gains knowledge on things......but that's nice to give Bass an "A" and let eveyone know he's not the stinker that's getting an "F". Joe



I look to this board strictly for information first. So I take nothing personal. It helps to get perspective because you tend to get too involved in yours.

Take yesterday. I had to pull off a 7MM08 barrel off a Remington and screwed on another take off in 243. No big deal. Except that this is the 6th or 7th change as the guy wants to find a superior shooter. So far he has spent more in shipping probably than it would have cost for a new tube. I don't know if he is making or losing money on the trades. Plus, there is a fee. Statistically, a new tube would have solved the quest long ago.

Joe,

I missed the Lilja comment about smoothness. Lilja makes excellent barrels. I can't ever remember getting a bad one. You should realize that you tout stuff that gives you an edge over the competition with the customer. So if they are touting smoothness, who are they comparing themselves too? Read the rest of their stuff. It is excellent. They will tell you about the whole process to include straightening. Seems every barrel that is buttoned requires some degree of this. Some companies have the equipment and take the time to do this, some don't. But their barrels are $80 more than the base level. They get steel made to their own specs too. Not the generic stuff that is offered to everybody else.

Felix,

So you like a tapered bore with a ever so slight gain twist. Dad's Walther is just like that. In fact, I believe that it is Lothar Walther barrels on the new Mausers imported by Charles Daly. Best steel too in both varieties. A heat treat process that takes two weeks to perform. They have a web site and you can read about the processes. These are my choice for the best buy right now for $300 and change if you like the caliber choices. They have a 7.62X39.

There are differences worth investigating and all the makers have sites to sell ya on their methods.

brimic
08-27-2005, 03:44 AM
If I had more money than sense, I would buy a Krieger barrel. I pulled targets for an old guy in a high power match who held the x-ring on a 200 yard reduced target from prone. I was in awe. The guy uses kriegers on his match and Service rifles and probably burns through 2 or 3 a year. I can't shoot that good to start with and probably never will be able to, so an A&B barrel is good enough for me. Heck, even the fresh, made by the mile, chopped to length remington 2-groove barrel that I screwed onto my 03A3 makes me look good and the tool marks in that one look frightening.

versifier
11-02-2005, 02:08 AM
Having worked as a machinist making both cut and button rifled barrels, I have a couple of comments to toss onto the table. What can make or break a button or a cut rifled barrel for shooting cast (or jacketed) bullets takes place after drilling and before the rifling. The reaming operation is the place where it happens. Some barrel makers make one pass with the reamer, the better make two, and the best, three. The drilling process leaves the worst tool marks, and depending on how sharp the carbide tip of the deep hole drill is, and how talented the person who does the sharpening of it on the diamond wheel, determines how much needs to be removed in the reaming process. We used two passes with two different sized reamers before pull buttoning and produced barrels with better than average accuracy. (For comparison, Hart Barrels use three step reaming before push buttoning - I was taught action prep and chambering by Jerry Hart at RIT and toured their shop as part of the course. As you know, they make some of the most accurate barrels produced anywhere.) We weren't supposed to say how many of the big gunmakers used our barrels when they were unable to produce enough of their own, but the list was a real eye-opener. (They do many, many times the volume now than we did in the 80's when I worked there.) It might be of interest to mention that all the muzzle loader barrels we made were smooth buttoned after reaming to remove the last of the drill marks before cut rifling. Those cut rifled barrels set A LOT of records, too. If the barrel has not been properly prepped before the rifling is cut, there are lots of deep perpendicular tool marks left in the bore, you can see it with a bore scope, but mostly you notice it as poor accuracy on the range and fouling builds up both quicker and thicker. :holysheep That's the main difference between a cheap import barrel and a fairly priced import or American made one. Buttoned or cut doesn't make any difference if they're not properly reamed before they're rifled, and not much when they are, either. It's the reaming, not the rifling that is to blame. Most people have no access to bore scopes, but if you did, you'd be amazed at how rough even the most ultra accurate match barrels appear under extreme magnification, and cut rifled barrels foul up just as bad with copper and lead deposits as the buttoned variety. :shock:

Safeshot
12-01-2005, 11:27 PM
So if you want a "budget" priced barrel and stock to "build" a rifle on a M 98 Mauser large ring action this is about as "budget" as I think you will get. They have 16 calibers to choose from as well. This is $10.00 less than Midway's regular price for the barrel alone at $89.99. If you like A & B Barrels, this should make you "REAL HAPPY". They also have stereo electroic hearing (earmuff) protectors for $29.99. These prices are in their December "Flyer" #222, on the front page. I am not associated with Midway in any way. I do like some of their sale prices.

Teach
12-27-2005, 06:45 PM
I guess it's possible that Midway has someone assigned to cull all their A & B barrels, and send me the very best they've got whenever I order one, but if that's so, they've been doing it for 5 years or more. So far, I've rebarreled several Mausers, and a couple of Rugers with A & B tubes, and I haven't found one yet that wouldn't overlap holes at 100 yards with a little barrel break-in and a good reload. So far, that's happened with a stainless .22-250 , a 7 X 57, a 7 Mag., a 6.5-06 made from a 6.5 Swede barrel, and a couple of .30-06's. I've got 3 more in progress, a .338-06, another .22-250, chromemoly this time, and a .25-06. I'll also be rechambering another Swede barrel to a custom-specification 6.5 Rem. Mag with some extra freebore to allow a lot longer than SAAMI OAL.

Here's an informal 300-yard group fired off the tailgate of my pickup with the Ruger M-77 6.5-06 during a groundhog hunt when the whistlepigs weren't cooperating. (OK, it's actually 297 yards, confirmed with a laser rangefinder.) 100 grain Sierra hp's, at 3,400 FPS.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/358707.JPG

I think I'll hang onto this one, until I can afford a fancy barrel!
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Jerry

grumble
12-27-2005, 07:14 PM
No heresy allowed here, Jerry. We all know those A&B barrels don't cost enough to shoot well. Next thing you know, you'll be telling us you get good results with Lee dies and reloading equipment. Even worse, you might try to convince someone that the Lee reloading manual is worth using.

No heresy allowed!

carpetman
12-27-2005, 09:53 PM
Teach---Why you having a 25-06 made when you don't list having a .270? What will the 25-06 possibly do that a .270 wont do better? (I don't have a .270 either)

Teach
12-28-2005, 01:12 PM
Grumble, you've been reading my mail! The ammo that shot that group was loaded on a Lee Turret press that I've been using for the past 20 years! I think I did use RCBS dies, though! I haven't seen anything a .270 can do that my 6.5-06 can't do just a little bit better, although my son-in-law has a Ruger M77 MK II that I load for. The .25-06 is going to a bird dog trainer in Ohio, in exchange for a pup he gave me with a bloodline that goes back into the 1930's. I think it's a pretty good swap! The next one that's going together just for me is the 6.5 Rem Mag. I've gotta build another one of the grandkids a deer rifle first, though. Here's a small-ring Mauser I just finished for my new step-granddaughter, who's going to be the reincarnation of Annie Oakley, it seems!

http://www.hunt101.com/img/338607.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/img/338608.jpg

BTW, that's a 3-shot group, with two through the same hole! Not bad for an 11-year-old's first time with a centerfire rifle! The gun is a small-ring Spanish Mauser, with a cock-on-open kit and a 7.62X39 barrel and magazine adapter from Gun Parts Co. It's got a Timney trigger, a Corelite stock from Midway, and a Tasco World Class 3X9X40 scope. Yeah, I know, cheap stuff all around, but the deer won't ask what it cost! She had to get it on the range before I even had a chance to blue it, so it looks a little better now!
Jerry

StarMetal
12-28-2005, 01:30 PM
The 6.5-06 is, for the size of it's case, possibly the flatest shooting round going. The only other one that comes close to it in that size is the 25-06.

If you all remember on the old Shooters, Master Gunner, he had a 6.5-06 made up for 1000 yard shooting and was darn good at it.

Joe

grumble
12-28-2005, 03:00 PM
I dunno about you Jerry. Going on the cheap for everything, and then you BUY your targets? Whatsa-matter you? <G>

That is a great family pic. My compliments to the young lady, and to her grampa for being so indulgent!

Bass Ackward
12-28-2005, 04:29 PM
That's the main difference between a cheap import barrel and a fairly priced import or American made one. Buttoned or cut doesn't make any difference if they're not properly reamed before they're rifled, and not much when they are, either. It's the reaming, not the rifling that is to blame. Most people have no access to bore scopes, but if you did, you'd be amazed at how rough even the most ultra accurate match barrels appear under extreme magnification, and cut rifled barrels foul up just as bad with copper and lead deposits as the buttoned variety. :shock:


Thanks for your experience here in manufacturering. Nicely written too.

But as a user I whole heartedly disagree. When we get into these discussions for lead barrels the accuracy issue always turns to jacketed. People just automatically turn to jacketed because they believe it to be the best point to argue. And this is aided by people thinking in terms of cast bullet velocities. What makes a good jacketed barrel is different from a good lead barrel. Unless you are shooting low velocity loads. So this is where I lose most people. If you have a good cut rifled barrel and tall rifling, there is no advantage to using a jacketed bullet up to 3200 fps where lead melts in the air in high humidity. The best lead barrel I ever hand my hands on wouldn't shoot copper in a 2" group. But I could sling ACWW well over 3000 fps just like it was jacketed. And better than most people shoot copper.

If we had barrels made like this today, then this would be a mute discussion and everyone would just nod their heads when they read this stuff. As it is, quality, experienced men think in terms of jacketed logic and stagnent cast velocities. And they think benchrest accuracy. And for that they may be entirely correct. I have no way to disprove them. There is no slight to an A&B barrel here at all. Nor anyone elses. Would it be my first or second choice for a custom? No. But they usually don't have the rifling height or bore finish to make good high velocity lead outfits either. Key word there is usually.

A good copper barrel is dimensionally correct or the bullets will make it that way fairly fast. A rough finish actually cuts friction. Ol'timers used to call it burnishing the bore. Today, we call it breakin. Low rifling height is benificial as taller isn't needed because of copper strength. It also helps to cut pressure. Not a concern for lead really. Also important is a bore of exactly the same size to just slightly bigger to minimise friction. Gas cutting is a non issue. Less friction, less heat. Less heat, less elongation and vibration to have to control. Less stress induced in the manufacturing theoretically allows more consistent vibration and wider "sweet spots" too.

If you really believe that the difference is in how many times they are bored, then you should realize that these extra steps were designed to prevent inducing stress into the steel. Buttoned rifling induces the most stress of any method and cut the least. Dimensional perfection and finish is important. And rifling height is everything .... with using soft cast. Also the way the tool marks are arranged in the bore. Buttoned rifling is across the bore. Like a file. Cut rifling is with the bore. A cut riffle barrel will take longer to break in with copper and will really foul worse than a button rifled one. True. But a cut rifled barrel fouls far less with lead. Ol'timers used to take their muzzle loaders back in to have them "freshened up". That meant to put tool makes back into the barrel in a parallel fashion with the bore to improve performance and minimize fouling and it's effects. Or so they say. At least they believed it. And all they had to shoot was lead.

Now I mention all of this and people go this guy is crazy. But then, over half of them will say microgroove stinks for HV cast bullet use. SAME THING! It's just that we don't have the rifling height to go on up so everyone would understand what I am saying. Thus, we belive that the limitation to cast bullets is the cast bullet. My point is that the limitation to cast bullets is the barrels.

StarMetal
12-28-2005, 05:23 PM
....or maybe we all should sell all our moulds and casting equipment and buy Corbin jacket bullet swaging equipment and say the hell with what kind of rifling is in the barrel. No no, not get rid of your ws's we'll still use those to make the cores. The Corbin machinery has enough grunt to swage that. Well still be casting sorta and we'll definately be making our own bullets too. Yep, that's it, quit cast bullets.

Can I take my waders off now John? hehehehe

Joe

jcunclejoe
01-06-2006, 03:29 PM
I have had at least a half dozen rifles re-barreled with Adams and Bennet and my cousin has had another three done with the A&B. So far only one gave any trouble at all. That was on my 25-06 Mauser. The barrel was rough and would not shoot very well. After intense firelapping the barrel smoothed out to an acceptable level of fouling and finally ended up being a 3/4" shooter. This barrel only sees jacketed bullets but it is the worst of the A&B barrels I have seen. The rest all shot sub-moa and cleaned easily right from the start.
I have had one Douglas barrel which is a 6mm and it copper fouls as bad as the 25-06 barrel ever did. I'm still working with that one.
I would go with the A&B and before you have it threaded and chambered, clean it well and see if you can feel any roughness. If you don't like it return it for another before any more time and money is invested.

Due to the small sampling of Douglas barrels I cannot condemn them but I can vouch for the A&B's being pretty darn good in my book.
Joe

Bass Ackward
01-06-2006, 04:59 PM
Can I take my waders off now John? hehehehe

Joe


Joe,

Absolutely, The limits of todays barrels is not to shoot lead accurately, but to shoot lead accurately at higher rifle velocities. The lower the rifling height, the lower the velocity ceiling.

If Shilean thought that there was no difference in the requirements for internal bore conditions for between both metal types, they wouldn't have a Cast bullet barrel department. Would they?

StarMetal
01-06-2006, 05:10 PM
Bass,

I don't remember John saying he had a separate cast dept when I talked to him. He did say that they can make deeper grooves with button rifling if someone wanted that for cast shooting, which he did say was perferrable.

Joe

Bass Ackward
01-06-2006, 09:15 PM
Bass,

I don't remember John saying he had a separate cast dept when I talked to him. He did say that they can make deeper grooves with button rifling if someone wanted that for cast shooting, which he did say was perferrable.

Joe


Joe,

Well, I am about 1/3 the way through a test to demonstrate exactly what I am saying. So far, the test is going my way. I will post results only if it prooves me right. :grin:

In the mean time, tomorrow is for fire lapping a 7MM Douglas air guage and a 22 Shilean Select Match. Both fire the first three shots into less than 1/2". Next three are 1 1/2" to 2" and the third three of 4" or worse. Bores look like a gold mine at that point. And after the proper breakin and 200 rounds, they either clean up or they come off.

felix
01-06-2006, 10:05 PM
Joe, whom did you talk with at Shilen. John? Must be a new guy. I met Ed Shilen back in the old days about when Allen Hall was working with him. ... felix

StarMetal
01-06-2006, 11:21 PM
Felix,

I must have said John because that's Bass's first nameand Bass and I have been posting alot in the thread. I can't recall who I talked to now. It was a Shilen tho cause I asked who I was speaking too.

Joe

lovedogs
02-01-2006, 10:02 PM
If any of you have read my comments addressing the comments on H&R Handi-Rifles you know I have a .45-70 Buffalo Classic that shoots GREAT. It doesn't lead. It's GREAT! How can anyone put together such a reasonably priced rifle with such a good barrel?

I've also got a custom made .25-06 with a Shilen bbl. The bbl. cost more than the whole H&R rifle. The H&R was just over $300. The custom rifle is a $3000 jewel. They are both great shooters. The .25 shoots groups of just over 1/4 inch. The .45 shoots cast lead into about 3/4 inch.... darn good. I know guys with $6000 custom Sharps that don't shoot as well.

Guess what I'm saying is that I'm not sure anyone has it all figured out. I also have an ancient 788 that was cheap, too, and it shoots a ragged hole. Go figure. I think a "quality" bbl. is the best assurance, but that's not always the case. Like the man said, "You pays your money and you takes your chances". If it shoots... great. If'n it don't, well, too bad. Better luck next time.

Frank46
02-02-2006, 03:32 AM
Speaking about rifling height. Does anyone make barrells with mauser type rifling?. With the skinny lands and huge grooves it would seem to me that the mauser type rifling would offer a better grip and guidance for cast bullets. Just curious. Frank

Ricochet
02-02-2006, 04:21 PM
Bass, I don't understand why you say button rifling produces tool marks across the rifling. As I understand it, the button is pulled or pushed down the bored and reamed barrel and swages the grooves out. Any marks produced by that should follow the path of the button down the bore. It would seem to me that it would smooth out the existing tool marks from boring and reaming.

versifier
02-02-2006, 10:22 PM
Ricochet,
The perpendicular tool marks are not caused by the button, but are left from the drilling and reaming operations. The button can and does smooth them somewhat, but reaming is a step where many barrel makers choose to cut corners, and the button can only do so much. If you follow back this thread, you will find an earlier posting of mine on page four that explains it in much greater detail.

Bass Ackward
02-03-2006, 07:37 AM
Bass, I don't understand why you say button rifling produces tool marks across the rifling. As I understand it, the button is pulled or pushed down the bored and reamed barrel and swages the grooves out. Any marks produced by that should follow the path of the button down the bore. It would seem to me that it would smooth out the existing tool marks from boring and reaming.


Ricochet,

Versifier is correct that a lot of the tool marks on the lands that are perpendicular to the bore are from the reaming process. And you are correct that some are smoothed out. But they are in the grooves too. The same bore scope will show you that.

If the steel offers a lot of resistance in one spot, the button can almost chatter or skip. The barrel can and will stretch unevenly like taffy and to some degree turn the button making the bore larger at that point. Behind the button where it stretched, the bore diameter will be smaller. When it stretches, the rate of twist changes on the rifling and so does rifling height and the space between the rifling until it comes back to a norm. Buttoning also can require the bore to be straightened after the process is finished. Lilja used to speak of this, I don't know if it is still up on their site. That is why stainless makes the best barrels with the buttoning process. Softer steel offers less resistance and less stress induced into the steel. But even they will have twist rate variances that must be fired out. And because the steel is softer, it cleans up (breaks in) quicker. But that clean up comes from wear, so they wear faster too.

Because of this thread, I did rifling height and bore condition testing sense Christmas starting with a virgin barrel. The results were posted up under the cast bullet section under Pressure and Hardness I believe. Remember, the argument here is not "accuracy" alone, but accuracy with lead. I believe that cast bullet performance can approach that of jacketed at jacketed velocities with the right barrels. I have satisfied myself that rifling height and dimensional "perfection" offer the best chances .... and the most options for accuracy with lead. If you can shoot lead slow or fast, soft or hard you will find many more combinations that work to acceptable levels than someone who is stuck in the old cast bullet range. The more loads that work, the better the chances one will work better than the others based on the harmonics of THAT barrel. If the best harmonics for THAT barrel is in the 2400-2800 fps range and you don't have the rifling height to get cast to that point, then you never know.