Hoch mold 420 gr GC/45-70Gov't

[okotoks]

I have cast thousands of 44 and 45 cal bullets (200 to 255 Grains) but I am new to these really big ones.

I have cast about 300-400 of these bullets, with a wheel weight +/- a little pure Linotype. They weight about 427-429 grains, the bullets drop out well. Accuracy appears good I shot the first 50. Never cast bullets this big before so I have no normal comparison. But the mold and the lead must be a lot hotter than with 200-250 grain bullets. I found that I needed to have the mold almost hot enough to smear the sprue. If I set the mold down for any length of time it immediately becomes difficult to fill. But will usually fill with the next pour. I need to cast at 740-760+ degrees (RCBS thermometer). I get a lot of fairly frosty bullets, the shiny ones are so small the gas checks won’t stay on and have wrinkles. The lead is hot enough to fill a cold 45 caliber pistol Lyman or RCBS mold.

I don’t care about the frosty for clanging steel or paper targets but am concerned these will be way too brittle to use as an (elk) hunting load.

To dip fill I need to rest the sprue plate on the furnace or it won’t fill, but mostly I use a Lee bottom fill (with the leaky spout) and never put the mold on the table. .

Can I or should I fine tune the temperature to cast a select number of cooler lead/hotter mold to make a hand full of “hunting bullets’? What lead temp should I aim for?

How much lead shot do I need in 20 pounds of WW (refined ingots) to get the Antimony level high enough to make the bullets hard(er)?

I have no access to, or purchased a hardness tester.

I blast them in a Browning 1886 and a Marlin guides gun, both guns prefer the bigger bullets .400+ grains
Thanks
Okotoks
Parker CO

[Dale53]

okotoks;
You are not asking one question but several. It will be helpful to anyone responding to let them know how fast you are driving your bullets.

At black powder velocities, you will need to have SOFTER bullets to expand when hunting (30/1 lead/tin to as soft as 50/1 lead/tin is realistic).

However, using smokeless powder, you can get much higher velocities and you will need to have the bullet hardened properly for the specific velocity - too hard, and you will drill a bullet diameter hole through the elk. Sometimes that leads to lost animals. My preference in 45/70 is a flat nose bullet at moderate velocity with a bullet hardened to match. Four hundred grains is a good all around weight. The black powder guys prefer much heavier bullets but they will also use SOFT bullets. Even at Black Powder velocities, you can get GOOD expansion with the proper alloys.

Dale53

[okotoks]

Re bullet hardness & velocity
I would try velocities 1600 to 1800 FPS for Hunting loads.
mostly I have shot 400 grain bullets with 47-50 grains of 3031,
the Browning shoots well over a much wider velocity range than does the Marlin but I intend to hunt with the Marlin.
I would like to develop a load similar to Garrets Hammer head +P for the Marlin,
so high velocity >1650 with the 430 grain bullet, this makes for a load that takes the fun out of practice.
I got the gas checked mold to allow shooting higher than 1500 FPS .

[Dale53]

The Lyman #46 Edition reloading manual shows a maximum of 47.0 grs of 3031 in a Marlin 1895 giving a velocity of 1684 fps with a 420 gr bullet. You should really start at 40.0 grs and carefully work up for best accuracy.

Using a gas check bullet, it is possible to use the max listed above with WW + 2% tin. That alloy will expand within reasonable ranges. Let accuracy be your guide keeping in mind that the sensible limit with the Marlin in 45/70 is 25,000-28,000 PSI. The book shows 47.0 grs at 25,000 psi. That should be a sensible limit with the Marlin.

I have a Marlin 1895 and find it to be a very nice rifle. Decent power and good accuracy with sensible loads.

I also have a Ruger #3. I can use much heavier loads in the Ruger, but WHY?. It is a stronger action than the Marlin but it becomes very punishing with the heavier loads due to its light weight.

I think the key to satisfaction with the 45/70 is to seek a good accurate load in the 1500-1600 fps. I'm not shooting buffalo here, but frankly, the 45/70 did good work on the Buffalo at a relatively sedate rate of 1300 fps with Black Powder. Adding two to three hundred feet per second will flatten the trajectory a bit but frankly the 45/70 is not a flat shooting varmint rifle and doesn't need to be. It's forte is smash and penetration WITH A BULLET OF THE PROPER ALLOY. If the bullet doesn't expand it will not "stop" near as well as using a bullet soft enough to expand. You MUST balance the hardness of the bullet with the velocity of the load to get adequate expansion. I believe in using the softest, most malleable, bullet that will still shoot. I am also a real believer in the flat nose bullet with the largest meplat available for game.

I just LOVE the big bores.

Good luck!
Dale53

[PatMarlin]

Never heard that a boolit will be brittle due to a frosty cast. Can someone expand on that theory?

[BruceB]

I have a very similar Hoch mould, the 459425. This is a nose-pour plain-base design. It casts at .459 in straight wheelweight alloy, and weighs around 429 grains in that alloy.

Since my Shiloh has a groove diameter of .4575", the Hoch mould seems to offer some potential, since it seems like a good "fit" for my rifle. I have gotten a couple of very tight one-hole groups at fifty yards (for TEN rounds) with the Hoch bullet, but haven't even really scratched the surface with it as yet.

In agreement with others who have already posted, I've set an arbitrary loose max-speed limit of circa 1500 fps for my Sharps', simply because it's in accord with both history and the comfort of my shoulder. At that speed, and a good bit higher if truth be told, a gascheck isn't needed.

If taking such a bullet hunting, I'd cast a softpoint on it and not worry in the least about performance after impact. Make the shank as hard as you like, and let the pure-lead nose do the expanding. About 1/3 of the total bullet weight in pure lead is the figure I've adopted for my my cast softpoints. That ratio should ensure that enough hard shank material will remain to ensure penetration, regardless of what might happen to the nose.

Frosty bullets are not brittle, or even any harder than non-frosty ones. I cast at 870 degrees virtually ALL the time, and have no worries about either frostiness or good fill-out. If one doesn't like the frosty appearance, a lick on the loaded bullet with some steel wool and a fast polish with a rag makes any cast bullet gleam like a mirror. Crank up the heat, if the mould is giving fill-out problems!

[PatMarlin]

Thanks for that input Bruce.

Crankin' up that heat makes em' drop like butter too.. :drinks:

[okotoks]

thanks for the imput on casting temp.

I have been adding ingots every time the heat got over 800 degrees. It will make the casting easier with more heat.

will be testing some more loads this weekend, with 3031, 4198 and 5744
ty
okotoks

[drinks]

Ok, To make wws harder, you water drop them.
The additive that makes water dropping work is Arsenic, not Antimony.
Most wws have enough Arsenic to water harden.
I put a table spoon of #8 chilled shot in 10lb of wws if I want to make sure the bullets will water harden.
Using a gas check, I never bother water hardening, with a good lube the BHN 10-12 wws do not lead on me even when shooting a 320gr RN GC at 2300fps.