Need advice on powder for 223.

[BarryJ]

Hey all,
I have some powder around. 700X, bullseye, 2400, and power pistol. I am going to be loading them in a 223 with Noe 225 55Gr. FN 3 cavity GC mould. I will start shoot thing them with a mini 14.
What would be a good starting point with one of these powders that might actuate the action?
Going to use WW dropped in water.
Thanks very much
Barry

[DeanWinchester]

I'm about to get started on .223 myself. I'm going to start with Unique.

[destrux]

I don't think any of those are going to cycle the action. I could be wrong. The fastest powder I can get to cycle a semi auto action in .223 is H4198, 20gr being the smallest charge that will cycle reliably (22gr is max load). That's in an AR, the Mini might get by with less gas.

Most of the loads you see listed with pistol powders are intended for bolt actions. They will fire in a semi, but I doubt they'd work it.

I've heard though that the 4227 (IMR or Hodgdon) powders may work.

[BarryJ]

Don't that have a close burn rate to 700X? I know the Lyman cast book shows about 5.5 grs to 7.0 grs (something like that, don't have my book with me) of 700X.

[destrux]

No, 700X is very fast... faster than Bullseye according to the Hodgdon burn rate chart. H4198 is slower than anything you listed. Of all the stuff you listed though, 2400 is the slowest and probably your best bet if you don't want to buy powder and if you can find load data for it.

http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

[Threepersons]

My mini 14 would not cycle with any pistol power. Not enough pressure
at the gas port. 4064, 4895 were the best. 4350, 4831, 8728 and even R22
would cycle.

7828 powder

[BarryJ]

So what would u recommend for that load? I found some 4895.

[felix]

4895 is very good. See your reloading books for specific loads. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

Start at 14 gr 4895, use a 1/3 gr dacron filler and work up in 1/2 gr increments to 20 gr 4895. Accuracy, depending on alloy, sizing quality, etc., will probably be best at the lowest level giving functional reliability depending on the twist of the rifling. If you've an older 10" twist Mini14 then you can push up to 1900 - 2000 fps with pretty good accuracy, cose with a 9" twist and below that with a 7" twist.

Larry Gibson

[jonp]

4064 will work also in that if you have some. I'm not sure, as others have said, that the pistol powders would cycle the bolt.

[jonp]

for initial work in one that I had a couple of years ago I started with 4064 since I had that from another loading but moved to AA2230 and never went any farther. I sold it and have a couple of ar15's and bought some more AA2230 and an 8lb jug of AR Comp which i havn't had time to try yet.

[Rooster931]

I cast and shoot tons of pistols and rifle rounds a month, however I have not entered into the .223 cast bullets at this point. I do however load a great deal of "j-words" in .223 which is actually what I load the most. I have to agree with Destrux on this one I doubt any of your powders would cycle the action reliably. I would seek out 4064 if I was intested in developing a loading for this.

[SlippShodd]

I recently went through this... it's gonna take some patience and a lot of trial and error.
I bought the NOE 225-55, which nets out to about 62 grains lubed & checked with my initial alloy. I started with 2400 and kept upping the load until I got it to eject the fired case, but never would strip the next round out of the mag. I gave up on 2400. I settled on another not so hopeful for cast in the AR powder, 748, which by all accounts is really hit or miss for this application. My gun happened to like it and that's now my go to load, turns out to work well in both my 16" 1-9 and my old Colt 20" 1-7.
But, I don't have much 748 left and no real hope of getting any more real soon, so I started exploring other powders I have on hand. H335 shows promise, as does BLC-2. What I have a lot of onhand is H380, which has next to zero data available in .223, but I'll take a swing with it. BTW, not one of these powders has a big fan club in the cast-in-ar contingent. Most reports seem to echo the "really gun specific" sentiment, and are not very encouraging. I'm okay with that.
What does have a big following and a near miracle status success rate is IMR-4895, along with a mostly universal tip of the hat to H4895. I have some of the H, and intend to try it, however it likely violates my desire to use a powder that meters well through a measure. Since my requirement of shooting cast in the AR is for trigger-time accuracy that holds to minute-of-clay-pigeon out to 200, I'm not keen on using a powder that requires weighing every charge.

just my $.04 worth (adjusted for inflation).

mike

[Larry Gibson]

H4895 is smaller kernaled than IMR or milsurp 4895s. H4895 meters quite well through most measure/throwers.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

nice post mike.

h-4895 appears to me to be a faster burning powder in the 22 cals than the imr version.
it will generally need a bit less to achieve the same velocity's.

[BarryJ]

I came up with some A-5744 and IMR-4895.
Going to start with 4895 @ 14 grns like Larry posted and see what it does.
Why would I need to put Dacron in my load?
My lyman cast book shows to start with 11 grns of 5744, max is 14.5
Anymore input?
Thanks
Barry

[runfiverun]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers
here is one discussion on it.
I am sure Larry Gibson has a sticky also on why/when they are used also.

[SlippShodd]

nice post mike.

Thanks, Lamar, I couldn't have done it without you... and pretty much everyone else on this forum who has pioneered shooting cast in the modern sporting rifle. Trying to do this on your own can be a bit overwhelming. I spent a huge amount of time researching old posts on the subject (and there is a pile of 'em), taking notes and trying to assimilate the data in such a way that I could understand all the pitfalls that stood in my way, and all the nuances to getting satisfactory results.
I ended up with information overload.
So typical of the things I tend to over-engineer, I had a ton of information, a fair understanding of the the potential, and no clear place to start. Turns out, this really is rocket surgery.
So, I sat back, inventoried my capabilities, took control of that which I could control, established some essential goals, set some reasonable expectations. Then I asked some questions. I didn't ask for the brass ring; asking someone for their pet load is pointless and a lot like asking a stranger for money. Instead I asked for help narrowing down my choices. With that, I was able to kickstart the process and begin my journey. I didn't want to reinvent the wheel, but I didn't want drive a borrowed car either.
A lot of what I posted above is the truth as told me by others who deserve all the credit. The rest is the truth as discovered by me through practical application. I threw out a lot of targets in the process of finding what I'm calling my interim pet load: it'll do fine until I find something better through more testing. And if I don't find that, it'll do just fine.
The people on this forum are the best.

mike

[Keith429421]

for initial work in one that I had a couple of years ago I started with 4064 since I had that from another loading but moved to AA2230 and never went any farther. I sold it and have a couple of ar15's and bought some more AA2230 and an 8lb jug of AR Comp which i havn't had time to try yet.

I'd be interested in your findings using AR Comp powder.
I have the NOE 225 55 mold ordered and on its way. This powder works great for my J word bullets in my AR.

[jonp]

I'll be interested also. I bought it at a gunshow for some unknown reason and when I got it home I was like "that was stupid". I'm sure it will be of use. I'm going to try it with some j word 55gr bullets that my girlfriend bought be first and see how it reacts although it seems to be more of fixing something that ain't broke.

[BarryJ]

I might have some updates for you all this weekend.

[BarryJ]

I have a little info for you.
5477 will cycle the bolt on my new Stag model 1 ar15 @ 14.5 grs.
Don't know how accurate at this time. I was planking about 20 yards to see how it works.
Barry

[swheeler]

5477 new powder?

[BarryJ]

dang typo!! LOL 5744

[BarryJ]

5744 powder - 14.5 grains, 55 grain fn noe mold, ar15. Running between 2100 to 2200 fps. Works bolt great!! Now to see how accurate it is. LOL.
Barry

[Westmann]

Out of curiosity, what kind of alloy do yall recommend using for the Mini-14? I've begun experimenting with an NOE 70gr mold, (and 8gr of Unique definitely did not cycle my action!) but I'm curious about what alloy yall would recommend for this caliber/gun. I'm somewhat of a beginner with cast rifle loads, so I'm concerned about things like leading and accuracy. I'll most likely be using this round for plinking and target shooting only.

Also wanted to share a quote from the third page of the Lyman 4th edition which caught my eye, regarding the Mini-14:

"Also I maintain that all avid bullet casters have the need to tinker lodged deep in their souls. They have irresistible urges to experiment; to try different sizing diameters, lubricants, alloys, seating depths, and so forth. Hard core bullet casters will try developing lead bullet handloads for virtually every rifle or handgun that falls into their hands. That's true if the ensuing loads have very little application in the real world. Having done so myself I know such is true. About 30 years ago I found myself in possession of one of Ruger's Mini-14s in .223 Remington. As befit my nature I acquired a couple of bullet moulds and worked fervently with that little semi-auto until it fed and functioned with cast bullet handloads at least 99% of the time. And it would actually shoot them into groups of about an inch at 25 yards. What practical purpose did it serve? None; except to satisfy my need to see if I could make it happen". -M. Venturino, Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th ed.

[44man]

I don't know how it will work but don't overlook 3031. It was my powder in the .222 years ago.

[AABEN]

AA 2230 H 4895 H 335 AA 2460 AA 2520 WIN 748 The 748 is a very good powder for lead bullets

[Westmann]

Posting back after a few tests. 70g linotype RNGC was surprisingly accurate with 16.5g IMR4064. I use both blue angel and alox, and CCI 41 primers.

I started with 14.0g 4064 and worked up. Nothing cycled the action until 16.0g. Velocity was between 1700 and 1800 fps.

Those lovely pills gave me two consecutive .4" groups at 50 yards seated with irons, and plenty of other good shots besides - more testing to come.

[fcvan]

A couple of years ago, I bought the Lyman 225-415 mold for use in my Mini 14 and my brother's AR. I started casting from WW, used Lyman gas checks, and lubed with BAC. 14 grains of 4227 cycled the action on both quite consistently. Accuracy improved as I played with boolit seating depth.

I have loaded for pistol for 35+ years and this was my first foray into necked cartridges with cast boolits. You have to love this site for all of the helpful and knowledgeable members. Of late, I am still using the 14 grains of 4227, but am now powder coating the boolits. I haven't run the latest load across the chronograph but I expect they are running a tad faster than the 2250 fps I was seeing. Groups shrank from the 1" at 50 yards (initial testing) to 1" at 100 yards.

Since I've read a great deal where PC'd boolits have been pushed a tad faster than 2400 fps I now need to look at other powders and charge weights. For now, I'm quite pleased with the performance I've experienced thus far. I'm going to try 4198, and possibly 3031 and see how things shape up.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Good thread, good info for the little boolits!

[Westmann]

A bit of eye-candy. High praise for the NOE mold (http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=353).

79219

[Westmann]

A beautiful, cloudless, bugless, dustless day today at the range, deep in the Green Mountains. More testing with the chrony with my 581 series mini-14. Six shots at 16.5, 17.0, and 17.5 grains of IMR 4064 with 70 grain linotype. No leading from any of these shots, and accuracy was within 0.5" at 50 yards seated with irons. Weekend accuracy tests for the sweet-spot will be with 17.0, 17.3, 17.7, 18.0, 18.3 and 18.7, 19.0. Good times!

16.5 grains: Average velocity 1590 fps
17.0 grains: Average velocity 1642 fps
17.5 grains: Average velocity 1732 fps

[cstrickland]

A bit of eye-candy. High praise for the NOE mold (http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=353).

79219

westman can I get a close up picture of those 70 grain beauties >> I have the same mold due to deliver tomorrow.

[Westmann]

westman can I get a close up picture of those 70 grain beauties >> I have the same mold due to deliver tomorrow.

My pleasure. Note that using linotype with this mold made the gas check shank slightly oversized. I had to flange the Hornady gas checks with a custom too:

Before culling, lube or gas checks:

79375

Flanging gas checks with a custom ground tool:

79376

Close-up of the tool I'm using to flange gas checks; it's just the end of a long drill-bit I turned on a grind wheel.:

79377

After the Lube-a-matic, and custom-fit gas-checks:

79373

After tumbling in alox:

79374

[Westmann]

A selection from the Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th ed. p. 48 on Gas Checks:



"...more important... is the dimension of the shank on a gas check style bullet... as in a linotype alloy bullet will be slightly larger in overall diameter than say one case of Lyman #2 alloy, and vise versa."

It's been my experience that Hornady GCs are a bit tighter with this mold.

[cstrickland]

My pleasure. Note that using linotype with this mold made the gas check shank slightly oversized. I had to flange the Hornady gas checks with a custom too:

Before culling, lube or gas checks:

79375

Flanging gas checks with a custom ground tool:

79376

Close-up of the tool I'm using to flange gas checks; it's just the end of a long drill-bit I turned on a grind wheel.:

79377

After the Lube-a-matic, and custom-fit gas-checks:

79373

After tumbling in alox:

79374

Westmann thank you very much. My hope is to powdercoat and run without a gas check. Damn mailwoman is running a minute late . I can't stand waiting for my mold . What is the dropped size and weight with the lino please

[jonp]

All of this is great information but most of the powders we listed including my post listed powders he does not have. He has 2400, 700x, Power Pistol and Bullseye

[Hamish]

All of this is great information but most of the powders we listed including my post listed powders he does not have. He has 2400, 700x, Power Pistol and Bullseye

None of these is suitable for function in a semi. He says in post 7 he found some 4895.

I have read that Stoner designed the rifle to use 3031, and that it was flawless with it. The problem period in VN with it were when they switched to WC846.