223 molds

[cstrickland]

greetings all. pretty new to the site post wise , but I have been reading quite a few posts . so I have been looking around and have a question or two I can not seem to find a definitive answer to.

. I was looking to cast a bullet for 223 application, and was looking for something that was profiled like a 55 gr FMJ. All I see in the way of current production molds is something like a RCBS 55 SP mold with the flat on top, or a round nose configuration. Now I did see an older lyman 225450 ( I believe it was lyman ) that is pointed, in an article beagle wrote about the 223 that was really close to what I am looking for , but no one seems to make them anymore . why is that ??

second question is from what I have read it is more difficult to cast anything under 30 cal , so how much difficulty does doing a 223 bullet with a point make it?? does the point create fill out problems within the mold ?

thanks
charlie

[Hamish]

The first questions the more experienced fellows are going to ask, is the application for an AR, or single shot/bolt gun, and do you know which chamber you have? (NATO 5.56, .223, or Wylde.)

[runfiverun]

i'm going with it being an AR [it always is]
just get the rcbs mold.

[cstrickland]

The first questions the more experienced fellows are going to ask, is the application for an AR, or single shot/bolt gun, and do you know which chamber you have? (NATO 5.56, .223, or Wylde.)

actually it is for both and AR and a bolt gun. AR is 5.56 and bolt is 223 wylde. Please trust me and do not take this the wrong way , as I do not want to sound like a smart ***, but what difference does the chamber or action type have to do with the questions I asked ??

1st question was why do MFG's not make a pointed bullet mold for the 223 anymore, or do they and I just am not able to find it through searching? Second question was about difficult the profile could or would add to the casting process.

[cstrickland]

i'm going with it being an AR [it always is]
just get the rcbs mold.

your quote of [ it always is ] seems like I may have annoyed you with my question some how . sorry if I offended you with my questions.
I did some research and found answers to most of my questions, and thought I was asking reasonable questions about the casting process and difficulties a design might add, as I do not have any real experience in casting. I did not want to be the newbie that asks the same question every week, like what mold works best and did not think I was . I know the RCBS will work along with the NOE and a few others, so I was not asking what is best or anything like that

[dkf]

actually it is for both and AR and a bolt gun. AR is 5.56 and bolt is 223 wylde. Please trust me and do not take this the wrong way , as I do not want to sound like a smart ***, but what difference does the chamber or action type have to do with the questions I asked ??

Because some of the molds available for .223 bullets have a profile that usually only work properly in 5.56 or .223 wylde chambers. Some bullets may not feed reliably on an AR due to the bullet profile. As for the cast bullets not being pointy like FMJ I would say some of the reason may be do to cast .223 bullets needing to be sized and often times gas checks added. You could distort the bullet easier if it was pointed.

[joesig]

Who knows why Lyman switches designs? I would be no new pointy molds because they are not easily cut on a lathe or mill.

Pointy bullets shouldn't be too difficult to cast. Easier than a HP boolit for sure.

Were you trying to get a high BC boolit?

[SgtDog0311]

I never thought to cast for a AR platform... I thought there were problems fouling the gas tube. Is that internet legand?

[runfiverun]

pointed cast boolits just don't do well at any kind of velocity.
they fly very well and are super accurate just not at velocity.
you have to take the design into consideration and the unsupported nose is affected by issues inside the barrel and then more problems in flight ensue from the damage.

cstrickland:
I wasn't trying to be patronizing, or condescending.
the 22 cals are a whole nuther ball game when it comes to cast.
they aren't like flinging lead from a 44 mag or a 30-30 at velocity there is a whole lot more to them.
you don't just make some boolits, pick off the couple of wrinkly ones and go to shooting.
unless 3" groups at 50 yds at 16-1700 fps is what you really want.

[Bullshop]

To add to what runfiverun said about being limited velocity wise a pointed cast 22 cal because of its small diameter would have a very week nose that would bend easily in a semi feed system. In order to avoid this the olgive would have to be very short so the profile would be much shorter and more blunt than FMJ bullets of the same weight.
Pointed boolits are no harder to cast than any other but pointy boolits with long efficient olgives are very limited in velocity to maintane accuracy. Add the semi auto feed system and you have two strikes against you from the start.

[cstrickland]

runfiverun thanks for the feedback. I wold not have expected that the nose would be that susceptible to deformation in the barrel or loading. my initial thought would be a hard cast bullet would survive that process. I can understand once it is deformed it wont shoot for nothin !!
yeah from what I read itty bitty 22 are difficult at best to cast , and no I would want to get more accuracy than that.

glad I didn't offend as I am just here to learn , and start doing some casting.

[cstrickland]

I never thought to cast for a AR platform... I thought there were problems fouling the gas tube. Is that internet legand?

John I have personally never shot cast in an AR so I can only relate what I have read, that being said there are several guys that I have read about that are or have done it. read the post in this link and you can see even after 500 rounds leading the gas tube is not an issue http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?156326-AR-15-500-Round-Cast-Bullet-Test .

Also Google " 223 why grown men cry" it was written by a member here from what I read, and it has a lot of excellent information on the subject.

you can not push it as fast as a standard bullet. I am hearing around 2400 ish max with a gas check but I can live with that. Considering you can cast a bullet and gas check it for near nothing , but the time you have in it is really appealing. On that note though I also read the small bullets are more difficult to cast.

[MT Gianni]

Cast in the AR is a 300 college class for most not a beginners course.

[runfiverun]

2400 is not even close to maximum.
2800 is when things start to get real difficult.
I really like shooting my 22 cals with cast, this includes the 22-250 and 220 swift.
I think they are my favorite round with cast actually, followed by the 30.
the ar is just another 22 cal

[cstrickland]

2400 is not even close to maximum.
2800 is when things start to get real difficult.
I really like shooting my 22 cals with cast, this includes the 22-250 and 220 swift.
I think they are my favorite round with cast actually, followed by the 30.
the ar is just another 22 cal

2800 ish would be even better . I had only read 2400ish and after that the accuraccy starts to degrade quickly. Would you mind shring the specifics with me on the 2800 load ??

[cstrickland]

Cast in the AR is a 300 college class for most not a beginners course.

thats what I hear but I have seen more than a few posts and videos of people doing it, so it is not impossible. Seems it just takes some experimenting and lots of patience. I am currentkly looking for the RCBS mold so see what I can do .

[badboyparamedic]

I use a Lyman mold for my 223, I use the same load for 2 different bolt guns and 3 different AR's. My mold has a rounded nose and feeds well in all the guns, chambers are both 223 and 5.56.

Yes casting the 22 calibers are a little harder than 30 caliber or larger but not impossible.

[Doc Highwall]

cstrickland, welcome to the forum! The first three rules of cast bullets are ,BULLET FIT, BULLET FIT, BULLET FIT!

Bullets need to be .001” to .002” larger then your groove diameter in order to seal the powder gasses behind the bullet.

A 5.56 NATO chamber is different then a 223 Remington chamber, not in where the actual chamber is but forward of the case mouth sometimes called the throat/lead/ball seat.
This is the area of concern with a NATO chamber in both 5.56 and 7.62 and how the bullet will fit to seal the powder gases and align the bullet.

As bullet caliber goes down defects are magnified, and in the case of a 22 caliber they are greatly magnified. With a 500 grain 45 caliber bullet a 1% variation = 5 grains, with a 50 grain 22 caliber bullet 1% = .5 grains so sorting and culling has to be more ruthless in order to get accuracy.

One of the problems with casting 22 caliber bullets is keeping the mould hot enough. First a hot plate to pre-heat your mould and additional alloy to replenish your casting pot will go a long way of starting out. Next you will have to maintain a good cadence in your casting speed to keep the mould at a good operating temperature along with your alloy.

Two things I have started to do thanks to CastBoolits members here is, I now have a PID controller I bought from Frozone a member here at CastBoolits, and Al from N.O.E. started to drill his moulds for a temperature probe that he also sells, I have been drilling and tapping all my moulds as I use them. Now I agree that you don’t really need both of these to cast good bullets, but it will sure make things a lot easier and repeatable casting good bullets.

Not bragging but with cast bullets in my Remington 40X chambered in 7.62 NATO, my record 5 shot group at 100 yards is .305” and at 300 yards is 1.610”

The more effort in controlling every step you take with documentation, the more satisfying the results you will receive.

So my question is how much accuracy do you want to get out of your guns?

[cstrickland]

cstrickland, welcome to the forum! The first three rules of cast bullets are ,BULLET FIT, BULLET FIT, BULLET FIT!

Bullets need to be .001” to .002” larger then your groove diameter in order to seal the powder gasses behind the bullet.

A 5.56 NATO chamber is different then a 223 Remington chamber, not in where the actual chamber is but forward of the case mouth sometimes called the throat/lead/ball seat.
This is the area of concern with a NATO chamber in both 5.56 and 7.62 and how the bullet will fit to seal the powder gases and align the bullet.
As bullet caliber goes down defects are magnified, and in the case of a 22 caliber they are greatly magnified. With a 500 grain 45 caliber bullet a 1% variation = 5 grains, with a 50 grain 22 caliber bullet 1% = .5 grains so sorting and culling has to be more ruthless in order to get accuracy.

One of the problems with casting 22 caliber bullets is keeping the mould hot enough. First a hot plate to pre-heat your mould and additional alloy to replenish your casting pot will go a long way of starting out. Next you will have to maintain a good cadence in your casting speed to keep the mould at a good operating temperature along with your alloy.

Two things I have started to do thanks to CastBoolits members here is, I now have a PID controller I bought from Frozone a member here at CastBoolits, and Al from N.O.E. started to drill his moulds for a temperature probe that he also sells, I have been drilling and tapping all my moulds as I use them. Now I agree that you don’t really need both of these to cast good bullets, but it will sure make things a lot easier and repeatable casting good bullets.

Not bragging but with cast bullets in my Remington 40X chambered in 7.62 NATO, my record 5 shot group at 100 yards is .305” and at 300 yards is 1.610”

The more effort in controlling every step you take with documentation, the more satisfying the results you will receive.

So my question is how much accuracy do you want to get out of your guns?


Doc right now I was looking at casting for practice ammo. now if I could hit the 2600 - 2700 range from a 55 - 65 grain bullet on velocity and get 1 - 1.5 MOA out to 400 yards I would be happy . I have had extended practice where I have burned through 500+ rounds in a day shooing at reactive targets from 50 - 300 yards, with occasional 400-500 yard shots. I calculated cost wise I could save about 1/2 cost on reloading cast, which would be about $50 - $70 a pracitce . I already handload and would not mid the casting, as the goal would be to cast through the winter months, when I do not go out and practice as much , that way I would have a nice stock pile for the summer when I would shoot more than cast.
so this is not something I am looking to get into and get immediate results. I have more than enough time to get everything together for this winter. the goal would be to have an acceptable load / bullet combo worked out, and then between 4000 - 5000 cast by this time next year.

this may be an agressive schedule for some but I feel it is doable

[runfiverun]

casting them is not what takes the time.
it's the ruthless culling, the weight sorting, making sure the checks are on square, making sure the lube fills the groove properly.
we are dealing in one thousandth of an inch and .1 gr weight variations.
that is just the boolit.
the cases and especially the neck/chamber relationship in alignment with the bore make a huge difference.
I don't expect a regular stag ar to shoot 1/2" groups, but it will shoot under
2" 100 yd groups if I pay attention to the details.
little girl showed it at the Nevada cast boolit gathering in her ar last year shooting at over 2700 fps and held accuracy the entire weekend.

my other 22 cal rifles will easily shoot under 1" consistently at that distance.
if I really pick and poke, my target/varmint rifles will hold 1/2" [and quite often much better] easy nuff.
but I have to go full out ocd to get them to do it, which burns up time like you wouldn't believe.

[338RemUltraMag]

I am so glad I worked my way UP to the AR-15/223, my only piece of advice is to just buy a NOE or MIHEC mold from the start, when only .001-.0005 counts you need the best from the begining...

Josh

[dbosman]

Ditto on going with a known good mold from the start.
NOE or MIHEC are going to be better than anything else, as they are designed for "us".

As an amateur caster, I also agree that a PID will make your life easier. A simple thermometer, which I'd not even considered in the past, made my smelting better and I'm sure it's going to help in boolit making. A PID is on my short list.

[Doc Highwall]

Another thing I forgot to mention is 95%+ reloading dies are made for jacketed bullets, and in your case 22 caliber where a jacketed bullet is .224" and the dies will size the inside case neck diameter as small as .221" which will not distort a jacketed bullet. The bullet run out will be excessive but it will not hurt your jacketed bullet diameter.

Your sized cast bullet diameter for your 223 should be .225"-.226" and you will need a Lyman M-Die that measures .223" Min. I prefer my case neck expanders to be .001"-.002" max smaller then my sized bullet.
With only .001"-.002" neck tension you will end up with less bullet run out on your loaded rounds.

[fcvan]

I had cast for decades before diving into the little boolits. I had so many folks talk about what a PITA it is and how hard it is to get any sort of accuracy. I finally bought a Lyman 225-415 and expected wrinkled boolits, poor fillout, and all around miserable results. I fired up the pot, pleated the mold, and the first cast were perfect and dropped free. Not at all what I expected.

I figured seating checks and sizing with. Lyman 450 at .255 would be a pain. I put the checks in a primer flipper, pushed a boolit down on the check, and then sized. Painless. Yes, they are tiny but not as difficult as i had expected.

Ok, so seating these little guys using the standard expander was a pain. I used a chamfer tool to bevel the inside of the case. Seating became easier but I think I'd like to buy a larger expander.

I loaded over 14 grains of 4227 based on my Lyman manual. Cycled fine, shot to point of aim, all around successful in a Mini 14 and an AR. I wish I had gotten into loading the little guys a long time ago.

[cstrickland]

I had cast for decades before diving into the little boolits. I had so many folks talk about what a PITA it is and how hard it is to get any sort of accuracy. I finally bought a Lyman 225-415 and expected wrinkled boolits, poor fillout, and all around miserable results. I fired up the pot, pleated the mold, and the first cast were perfect and dropped free. Not at all what I expected.

I figured seating checks and sizing with. Lyman 450 at .255 would be a pain. I put the checks in a primer flipper, pushed a boolit down on the check, and then sized. Painless. Yes, they are tiny but not as difficult as i had expected.

Ok, so seating these little guys using the standard expander was a pain. I used a chamfer tool to bevel the inside of the case. Seating became easier but I think I'd like to buy a larger expander.

I loaded over 14 grains of 4227 based on my Lyman manual. Cycled fine, shot to point of aim, all around successful in a Mini 14 and an AR. I wish I had gotten into loading the little guys a long time ago.

fcvan can you tell me what barrel length/ twist you are running, and what velocities you are getting ??

[cstrickland]

casting them is not what takes the time.
it's the ruthless culling, the weight sorting, making sure the checks are on square, making sure the lube fills the groove properly.
we are dealing in one thousandth of an inch and .1 gr weight variations.
that is just the boolit.
the cases and especially the neck/chamber relationship in alignment with the bore make a huge difference.
I don't expect a regular stag ar to shoot 1/2" groups, but it will shoot under
2" 100 yd groups if I pay attention to the details.
little girl showed it at the Nevada cast boolit gathering in her ar last year shooting at over 2700 fps and held accuracy the entire weekend.

my other 22 cal rifles will easily shoot under 1" consistently at that distance.
if I really pick and poke, my target/varmint rifles will hold 1/2" [and quite often much better] easy nuff.
but I have to go full out ocd to get them to do it, which burns up time like you wouldn't believe.

yes I figure I should weigh each bullet to get the most consistency, and that the culling would be stringent. like I said spend the winter months casting, so that I can shoot in the spring, summer an fall

on the 2700 fps do you know what lead mixture she was using and how hard it was ?? right now i am assuming harder the better, but I have heard too hard and they can explode after leaving the barrel .

[fcvan]

Cstrickland, the Mini is an old 180 model when they were 1 in 10" and the AR is 1 in 7". The load runs 2250 fps. I really like the way the weapons fire with this load.

[Bullshop]

Reguarding neck diameters for cast I like to use the Lee collet neck dies. You can adjust them to a pefect neck fit. I dont shoot auto loaders so neck sizing only might be a problem for those. They do extend the brass life though.
A bushing die with a set of neck bushings may work for auto loaders. They are expencive though and the cheep Lee collet neck die does the same job. Adjust them for just the right neck tension so there is no shaving of the boolit in seating yet there is enough boolit pull to help ignition.

[sergeant69]

if deforming the nose during the lubing/sizing is an issue, wouldn't using a star sizer make sense?

[Bullshop]

if deforming the nose during the lubing/sizing is an issue, wouldn't using a star sizer make sense?
Or a Lee.

[runfiverun]

4/6/90 alloy at 16 bhn.
we started at linotype and cut it back more and more.
we finally just cut it in half then added more tin so we could run the mold semi-cold and the alloy right at 700-f
we might be able to go a little softer but 50 lbs of alloy makes a lot of boolits and they do just fine as is.

[sergeant69]

Or a Lee.

ummmmmmmm! you said the L word!

[runfiverun]

he also said lee collet neck die.
name brand doesn't really matter it is what does the tool do, and does it do it every time.

[cstrickland]

4/6/90 alloy at 16 bhn.
we started at linotype and cut it back more and more.
we finally just cut it in half then added more tin so we could run the mold semi-cold and the alloy right at 700-f
we might be able to go a little softer but 50 lbs of alloy makes a lot of boolits and they do just fine as is.

I have been trying to get some bullets to test before I buy. I was looking for for the new nato and some fo the RCBS 55. Would I be able to talk you into selling me a few of these ??

[runfiverun]

I just sent out a sample, sized and lubed to southern Utah. [for a lube test we are doing]
I have no problem grabbing a handful and sending them to ohio.
send me a p.m. with your address, and i'll mail you some to mess about with.

[cstrickland]

I just sent out a sample, sized and lubed to southern Utah. [for a lube test we are doing]
I have no problem grabbing a handful and sending them to ohio.
send me a p.m. with your address, and i'll mail you some to mess about with.

PM sent with information . what do I owe you ??

[runfiverun]

nothing.
I got your p.m. i'll send some out first part of the week.

[blikseme300]

I never thought to cast for a AR platform... I thought there were problems fouling the gas tube. Is that internet legand?

Legend. I shoot on average 500 cast rounds a month in my 556 and 300blk AR-15's. One of my 300blk rifles has had more than 3000 rounds through it and I have yet to see any build-up in the gas tube.

[Blammer]

I'm looking forward to getting my 25-223 up and running again with cast. :) should be fun.

22 cal is too small for me to mess with, me and my fat fingers can't make them work very easy.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits/25%20cal/DSCN8724.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Cast%20boolits/25%20cal/DSCN8724.jpg.html)

[41 mag fan]

nothing.
I got your p.m. i'll send some out first part of the week.

That's a really nice thing you did there RFR.
I got this list of boolits I need..... :kidding:

[runfiverun]

you were close enough [well another 4 hours] to come over and rummage through the buckets and boxes.
but noooOO you turned around and went the other way.. :lol: