Tumbling 458

[RustyReel]

Picked up a Chas Daly Superior in 458WM a while back and having some trouble getting it to shoot worth a hoot. Rifle was supposedly NOS and I only planned on shoot cast boolits.

Started with a load of Unique and the lee 340 grain bullet lubed and sized in a .458 sizer. Ten round and none of them hit the 30"x30" target backboard at 50 yds!. The 45/70's I have all love this boolit so was really surprised by the 458's performance. Next tried the same load using Lyman 457124A boolits (what does the A stand for?) lubed and sized the same as the 340's. These all hit the backboard but were more of a pattern than a group with several key holing. I wasn't really surprised as my 45/70's don't like this boolit either.

Today I tried some Lee 405's, unsized and tumble lubed and 20 gr Trailboss. Fired ten rounds. All hit the backboard but it also was a pattern and eight tumbled, one almost tumbled and the other made a round hold.

Looking for a little direction as I have always heard the 458WM was a great shooter no matter who made it or what you fed it. Do I need to go with a larger boolit, heavier boolit, shoot it faster, or ??

Thanks for any help!

[rexherring]

Not sure but I think you need to size them bigger like a .459 or .460.

[Alan in Vermont]

If none of them hit the backer you have no idea if they grouped or not. Move closer until you find out where they are hitting, you may find they are shooting fine, just not to the same point of aim as the sights are sending them.

I just searched for Charles Daly Superior and most of the hits were for an O/U shotgun, is yours and O/U rifle configuration? If so you may be running afoul of barrel regulation issues, assuming O/U rifles act the same as S/S ones do. If it was regulated for .458 Win factory loads that could be the problem.

[RustyReel]

I did the poor mans boresight before shooting the 340's ie sighting down the bore and aligning the scope that way. None of the 340's were to be found. The Lymans and the Lee 405's hit the backer but key holed and patterned as opposed to grouped. As noted, the 405's were unsized as dropped from the mold. Guess I'll try some of the 340's and Lyman's unsized and pan lubed to see if they will do any better.

Rifle is a Mauser type bolt action, aka Remington 798, Zastava M70 and probably a couple of others as well. Charles Daly sold these under their "Superior" name for a while.

I may try and scrounge a couple dozen jacketed bullets from friends and give them a try as well.

68425

[Doc_Stihl]

Have you sized the bore?
Sounds like you might not be driving them hard enough too. ??

[Wayne Smith]

Slug your bore, measure with a micrometer, measure your boolits, and get back to us. Until we know those facts we are all pissing in the wind!

[Whiterabbit]

I'm curious about twist too. my 16" twist 45 cal BFR shoots 200 grain bullets like a shotgun, 340's tumble, and 400+ shoot straight.

If your twist is fast enough that might be playing a role, you might need to slow them down or go much heavier.

[No_1]

I will follow this thread. I have a few 45-70's that I like very much and have a desire to get a 458 Win Mag. I really need to get one since it would be a shame for the 50 pieces of brass and a die set to go to waste.

[waksupi]

Yep, undersized boolit.

Rob, I still have a .458 Win Mag for sale, with dies, bullets, and more brass...... [smilie=1:[smilie=1:

[No_1]

You are such a meanie Ric! I had almost forgotten that....

[fouronesix]

I'm curious about twist too. my 16" twist 45 cal BFR shoots 200 grain bullets like a shotgun, 340's tumble, and 400+ shoot straight.

If your twist is fast enough that might be playing a role, you might need to slow them down or go much heavier.

I'm with Whiterabbit on this one.

RustyReel, for sure do a few things first. Clean all the copper, fouling and lead out. Slug your bore to get groove diameter. Then, find out or measure the twist. Also, your idea of trying some Jbullets would be an excellent idea so see if the rifle will shoot at all- to eliminate some other bugger at work here.

If the groove diameter is .458 and the twist is standard 14" then--- try some 405 gas checked bullets- not too hard an alloy of BHN 12 or so sized to .458-.459 and pushed to a reasonable velocity of not more than 13-1400 fps. Then try a comparable gas checked bullet, same specs and maybe pushed even a little slower. I'd try 22 gr or so of 4759 or 5744 powder with fluff dacron filler to achieve those velocity results.

[RustyReel]

Thanks for all the advise guys. I only get to the range every couple of weeks and don't always take this rifle, but I'll keep you updated on my progress. Thanks again.

[rintinglen]

I'd bet a yankee dollar your boolits are undersized for your bore, and that you'll play hobb trying to get the 340 grainer to shoot well. Take the 400 grain boolits, and Try 'em as cast, over 24 grains of 2400 with a 3/4grain dacron filler. I think you'll find that will shoot better. That Lee 340 grainer tends to cast small, at least mine does.

[waksupi]

Forget your bore, fit your throat. You will most likely need .460+

[RustyReel]

Haven't had a chance to slug the bore, but did a bit of research and found the barrel has a twist of 1-14" (355mm). I'm not really sure what that means....heavier bullets?? I noticed that some barrel makers offer their 458 cal barrels in either 14" or 22" twist.

I've been shooting cast bullets in several different calibers for a while now and they all started out as at least reasonable shooters. Guess that is why I was so surprised at the poor performance from the 458WM.

rintinglen, I did try a load of 22 gr. of 2400 under the Lyman bullet that casts to about 385 gr. The 22gr load was a given to me by a friend as his favorite load...."shoots one hole groups at 50 yds"......right............my experience was the same as the other loads I tried.

[offshore44]

What waksupi said. Fit to throat on the 458 Win Mag. Seat way out, so that the boolit fits into the throat as well as it can.

The 458 Win Mag is my favorite rifle to cast for. It has it's peculiarities, but once mastered it shoots like a charm. I sometimes shoot a "light" 350 grain Saeco at around 2,200 fps with good accuracy, though my favorite load is a paper patched 405 grain Saeco at about 1,850 fps. I have run the 350 Saeco, paper patched, up to about 2,550 fps. Never did find a need to do that though.

I cast and size to 0.460 - 0.461" on all of my plain based or gas checked boolits. All of the paper patched boolits are in the 0.461 - 0.462" range.

Figure out what your rifle likes, and I bet it will reward you with some good shooting.

[Whiterabbit]

14" twist is teh same as the 45/70 BFR, that gun supposedly likes 300-400 grain bullets. Sounds like you are in the right ballpark for bullet weight though with your powder capacity I'm sure you could go to 500+ grains if desired. I'd guess throat size is next.

[Lloyd Smale]

i had a #1 in 458. It would shoot 500 grain cast into an inch or less, 405s went into about 2.5 inches at a 100 and 300s wouldnt even consistantly print on the paper. Bullets did have to be seated out and it was about impossible to seat the 300s and 340s out far enough in that gun. Even the 405s and 500s were crimped on the first lube grove below the normal crimp grove. What i would try first is using a HARD bullet, seating it out as far as possible, and if you want to use light for caliber bullets slow them down.

[swheeler]

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg234/kmw3291/458-500_zpseb2d07ef.jpg (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/kmw3291/media/458-500_zpseb2d07ef.jpg.html)


500 Gr Lee GC at 1800 fps, should be enough for small deer.

[swheeler]

RustyReel that is a fine looking rifle, nice stock.

[RustyReel]

As luck would have it, the three 45 cal molds I have all cast a .458 size slug. Found a couple dozen commercial cast bullits on my bench that someone gave me at one time that are .459. The are 411 gr in the same profile as my 405 grainers.

Think you guys may also be onto something when talking about seating depth. My manual says OAL for the 458WM is 3.340. Load data for the ones I have shot so far has the OAL at 3.000 or LESS! Tried seating one of my 405's with an OAL of 3.345 and it was still short of the rifling. Not pratical at that length as it must crimp in the first grease grove. Loading them to 3.200 puts the crimp in the second grease grove and that is what I'm going to try my next time out (just because I have the stuff to do that test now).

Have some Cerrosafe on the way for a mystery rifle I bought so will probably cast the 458's chamber as well.....just to see what's going on.

swheeler - thanks for the compliment on the stock. It came with the typical Zastava mud finish. I went at it for a few minutes with some 0000 steel wool and then put a light coast of Truoil on it. Looks much better. Hadn't got the swivel studs back on when I took that pic....I like Mauser sporting rifles. Metal work on that one is nice, the wood is nice, but the metal to wood fit is not as nice as one would expect from a company that has been making these things forever....

[Whiterabbit]

As luck would have it, the three 45 cal molds I have all cast a .458 size slug. .

if you want to experiment, hold a punch on the bullet meplat and give it a few taps with a light hammer. The sides will expand nicely and you can re-size to proper diameter using a push through sizer.

You can get any diameter you want using that method.

That, or beagle the mold. I use aluminum foil. Lets me cast for one session before non functional, but it works, gives me big bullets, and its enough to test. That'll give you a few thou over too.

[Whiterabbit]

when I shoot jacketed in my mauser, I found that to a point, shorter OAL was better. Measurements showed me I could seat a very heavy for cal bullet all the way out (all the way out) and it wouldn't touch the rifling. But a nice normal short OAL and it drives nails. Dunno why. But I'm not complaining!

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

That action sure looks like my Whitworth Express rifle.

[RustyReel]

Had a chance to get to the range with the loads I made up with what I had on hand. 19.5gr Trailboss under the Lee 405/.458 Pan lubed and the unknown commercial 405/.459 bullets. These were seated to an OAL of 3.200 which is still shorter than the max OAL and well short of the rifling. The first grease groove is outside of the case on both bullets.

NO MORE KEYHOLES!! I had ten rounds of each and nine of the Lee bullets went into about 1.5" at 50 yds with one flyer about a foot away. Not sure what was up with that. The first five .459 rounds went into one ragged hole with the other five opening the group to about 1.5".

Thanks for all the advice guys, especially about seating the bullets out longer than the manual states. Now I'm on the hunt for a fatter and longer bullet. And I think I'll try that 2400 load again.

Still not the accuracy many of you guys are getting.....but I like this rifle much better now!!

[Whiterabbit]

Now I'm on the hunt for a fatter and longer bullet.

What makes 458 the "best" caliber on the market bar none, is that there is NO other caliber. None. That even comes close to the awesome bullet AND mold selection of the 458. From roundball to what looks like roundstock. No other caliber is close.

458 is so great.

[pdawg_shooter]

I built my 458 on a P14 action with a Douglas barrel, 1/22 twist. Works great with 405 to 500gr paper patched bullets.