Shaving lead using rcbs dies,

[troyboy714]

Hi folks, Im loading 175gn lead 40 S&W, I have sized and lubed them to .401, my problem is that when I seat the bullet,I am shaving some lead,Its leaving a ring around the case mouth that I need to scrape and or peel away, Im usind a dillon 550 press and RCBS dies, I have adjusted my powder/ flair tube To the bare min bell (almost none) to the max bell that my seating die will handle,,I was wonderind if the dies are junk, (they are brand new), Im also wondering if maybe there is a type of flair tube like the lyman m die for dillon, any help would be great,, thanx.

[Love Life]

Are you seating and crimping in one step?

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Troyboy714,

In your 3 die RCBS die set, the second die to be used is the expander die.

This die brings the case mouth back from it's sized dimention to what should be close to the correct size - depending on the size of your cast bullet - for proper neck tention of the seated bullet.

This die ALSO flairs the mouth of the case, which if properly adjusted whould prevent shaving of the lead from the bullet.

I had what sounds to be the same problem with .45acp and cast, and it took awhile for me to fine out why I was having problems with the action not closing.

I, until proven otherwise, think this was a problem with the Lee factory crimp die that I was also using. A die by the way, that is a waist of money unless and until you have a proven need.

I see that Love Life ask about when you crimp your loads, and you will find quite a few folk who feel it is best to seat and crimp in two steps rather then one.

However, I have used just a standard 3 dies set of dies for many years without any negative issues and feel that proper adjusment will in almost all cases do every thing that is needed without the extra step.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Love Life]

^^Correct. I have no issues seating and crimping in the same step. It takes a bit of trial and error to get it down right, but then the lock ring takes care of further issues. If possible though I prefer to seat and crimp in different steps. Just a personal preference.

The OP is using a Dillon 550 and using the Dillon funnel to do case mouth belling. RCBS dies are usually 3 die, but i have been known to be wrong before!!! I figured seating and crimping in the same step is the issue here, and minor die tweaking may be in order.

[Case Stuffer]

Process f elimination. Bell the mouth enough that boolit will start by hand, seat boolit part way only.rmove and check for shaving, if non found seat boolit a little more an check again,continue seating boolit in small steps right up to the crimp starts. If the crimp rolls the case mouth in before the boolit is fully seated to the finished OAL then it will cause shaving, if the boolit is not straight and the die does not center and straighten it soon enought it will get shaved. Some seating dies commonly labeled Speed Seaters are better at correcting mis aliegened boolits than others. Some progressive presses come with expanders sized for jacketed not case bullets.

Added: Are you using the correct nose shape seater?

[runfiverun]

more flair

[dilly]

A lot of people rave about the lyman M dies.

[popper]

If you have beveled to the point the seated won't take the case, your alloy may be too soft with too much tin. Causes the lead to roll up, not get shaved.

[uscra112]

I don't load .40, but I do load a lot of .357, and I long ago found that I have to pick and choose from among my expanders to get one that does the job correctly for the particular brass I'm using. Stiff brass that's either very new or due for an annealing needs an expander about .001" to .002" bigger than softer brass does, due to the springback.

I once had a large lot of range brass that I had to sort carefully to get groups of cases that all expanded the same. A real PITA - I don't take random range brass anymore even as a gift!

[Cane_man]

Lyman M die... problem solved

[engineer401]

I had a set of 357 Magnum RCBS steel dies several years ago that never gave any problems. I later purchased a new RCBS taper crimp carbide set and found the sizing die sized the cases to 0.372" while others sized to 0.373". The flaring die was the same as that for 9mm so it didn't flare much. I also had lead bullets shave from the bullet bases while seating. Some of the time I couldn't seat jacketed bullets in my RC II press. The flaring die didn't flare the case enough. I crimp and seat in two separate stations. I finally purchased CH dies that are 0.374" inside diameter to size the brass to 0.375", the same diameter as new Starline brass. CH measured a "reject" carbide die left over from the past and sent it to me. I couldn't be happier. Eventually, I purchased a 550 press and the CH dies work perfectly. Ultimately, I replaced my RCBS pistol dies with CH. To sum it up, the problem may be the RCBS dies.

[35remington]

Make sure you're not taper crimping excessively and seating the bullet deeper at the same time. This will shave lead every time. Can't seat a bullet without shaving if the case mouth is being squeezed down simultaneously to a too small diameter. It's easier to get away with this with a jacketed bullet than a cast one.

[44man]

Needs more work to find out what is going on. I have seated and crimped at the same time forever.
Now you flare and stick a boolit in, good so far. As soon as the case enters the die does it close the flare?
I don't know how to make it clear but the flared case should fit the die up to the crimp without sizing the flare off.
Take a flared case without a boolit and slide it into the seat die, if it will not fit, the die is wrong. It should be just snug up to the crimp ring.
Many say to flare more but what good is that if the seat die removes it before the boolit is all the way in?

[runfiverun]

that's true.
I have had issues with a few seater dies that are so tight I can't use them for a cast boolit only .001 over jaxketed diameter.
the flair thing could also only be at the mouth of the case.
I have one seat die that I have to set the flair so that the edges of the case mouth scrapes the seater die all the way to the top of the stroke.
I have to use a different worse die to crimp in.

[fredj338]

With lead I prefer to seat & crimp in separate steps, but you can get food results w/ most bullets. An 'M' die just isn't needed, the Dillon & every othr expander is fine for handguns & lead bullet. If you load on the 550, buy another seating die, remove the stem & try seating & crimping in two steps.

[45-70 Chevroner]

In using a Dillon 550 or Square Deal, the only place you can do the belling of the case is at the powder measure position. I'm sure that any one that uses a Dillon knows this. He said he is using a Dillon so none of the other expander dies will work.
Troy boy: To my knowledge no other company makes parts for the Dillon. You might call Dillon and see if they will make an M die type funnel for you. I really think though that you should just open up the case mouth a little more and set up the crimp station to just flatten out the bell on the case mouth, as you know the 40 head spaces on the case mouth. I have three Dillons one of them a Square deal. For the other two Dillons I use RCBS Lyman and Dillon dies and the Dillon dies for the 550 work the best expecially for semi-autos.

[fcvan]

I seat and crimp using the Lee seat crimp die in one process as well. I set my dies using a factory round by first backing out the seat plug all the way. I the raise the ram with a factory round and screw the seat/crimp die down to the case mouth, finger tight. Then I set the lock ring and screw in the seating plug. Presto, it's set.

As far as case expansion, I use Lee dies and so it is a powder through expander die. I adjust the die to where the base of the boolit fits into the mouth somewhat snugly. That way when the boolit is seated it does not shave the side of the boolit. Cases like the 9mm tend to swage boolits when seated so that one is opened up a little bit more. I modified mine a tad so the it expands the case but doesn't over bell the mouth. When I seat the boolit and them pull it to measure I've found it hasn't swaged the boolit to being undersized. I hope this helps

[uscra112]

Needs more work to find out what is going on. I have seated and crimped at the same time forever.
Now you flare and stick a boolit in, good so far. As soon as the case enters the die does it close the flare?
I don't know how to make it clear but the flared case should fit the die up to the crimp without sizing the flare off.
Take a flared case without a boolit and slide it into the seat die, if it will not fit, the die is wrong. It should be just snug up to the crimp ring.
Many say to flare more but what good is that if the seat die removes it before the boolit is all the way in?

Very good point! :goodpost: I haven't hit this problem but as I said earlier I don't load the .40, or in fact any rimless pistol cartridges.

If you insert a flared but empty case about 3/4 of the way into the seating die, then pull it back out, you should still be able to insert the boolit freely. If not, the seating die is the problem!

[nicholst55]

I long ago found that I have to pick and choose from among my expanders to get one that does the job correctly for the particular brass I'm using.


Lyman M die... problem solved

What you guys are overlooking is that he is using a Dillon 550, and the expanding die from your normal RCBS (or whatever) die set, or a Lyman M die is not used! You're pretty much stuck using the Dillon powder funnel to expand your brass. Sorry, but I get annoyed reading responses from people who obviously didn't bother to read the entire post before they started typing.

To the OP: IIRC, one of the machinists on this forum has made custom-sized powder funnels for Dillon presses before, though I can't recall who it was. That's probably your best option, short of expanding your brass on a single stage press before loading it on your Dillon.

[popper]

My 40 RCBS seater will close down excessive flare, but only at the top of the stroke. I have an M die but it is undersized for cast.

[44man]

What you guys are overlooking is that he is using a Dillon 550, and the expanding die from your normal RCBS (or whatever) die set, or a Lyman M die is not used! You're pretty much stuck using the Dillon powder funnel to expand your brass. Sorry, but I get annoyed reading responses from people who obviously didn't bother to read the entire post before they started typing.

To the OP: IIRC, one of the machinists on this forum has made custom-sized powder funnels for Dillon presses before, though I can't recall who it was. That's probably your best option, short of expanding your brass on a single stage press before loading it on your Dillon.
I was not referring to the expander or flaring of the case, just the seat die and if it is too tight for cast and is closing the flare on entry.

[Matt_G]

You did chamfer the mouths of the cases, right?

[mpmarty]

With the Dillon 550 it's all in setting the powder measure down far enough to properly bell the case mouth.

[uscra112]

Another reason I don't ever want a progressive loader in my life. . . . . .

[popper]

I guess he figured it out. Probably needed to move the seater die out and the plug down so he didn't seat and crimp in the same step.

[birddog]

You stated that you had adjusted case mouth flare to just fit the seating die, next I would suggest a seperate taper crimp as dillon uses or the redding taper crimp die.

[918v]

.40 dies are designed for .399"-.400" jacketed bullets. Introducing .401"+ into the mix will cause internal issues. If the OP flared more, the seater die will simply unflair it while seating. If the bullet is started crooked, it will seat crooked and lead will be shaved off. Seating and crimping at the same time works, but only if the seater die bore is big enough to allow it with an oversized bullet, otherwise it will shave.