Liability of selling cast Bullets

[Rooster931]

I just wondered what everyones opinion is on selling cast bullets. With the ammo crissis in full swing I have had several people ask me to sell them bullets. I know we all trade/sell them on this sight and I would not be concerned with that. Folks on this sight know obviously about cast bullets, loads and guns. Any thoughts?

[awaveritt]

I'm not a lawyer, but my main concern sounds a bit selfish in this time of crisis. I'm going to hang on to my lead, given the precarious future of components, especially lead, which is having to withstand assaults on several fronts, including environmentalists.

[Love Life]

Ffl...

[rmatchell]

Talking to the people in my area I get the impression that the average reloader either doesn't want to mess cast or have tried and given up. Thats fine with me I haven't ran out yet. I have sold muzzle loader bullets but that is where I draw the line. In the past I have put an add up on craigslist and bought enough lead to cover the order so that it didn't come out of my stash.


Edit--- Good point Love Life. Its a class 06 right? The main reason I have only sold muzzle loader boolits

[willie_pete]

Yes, Type 06.

WP

[rmatchell]

Now not to take over here but am I right assuming that im ok selling muzzle loader bullets?

[theperfessor]

Probably not. Someone will post the regs I'm sure but ammo is defined as "bullets" along with other items, all of which require an FFL to legally manufacture and sell. Not sure if the bullets have to be for cased ammunition or not. Don't think it matters to the ATF.

Can you get away with it? Probably. Is it worth the risk? You decide. I don't want to be the test case for this, I've given away bullets but I won't sell them.

[462]

Over the years, this has been a much discussed topic.

An 06 FFL is required to manufacture ammunition, and the ATF's broad definition of ammunition includes bullets. Go to the ATF web-site, if you doubt it.

[Guesser]

I had a Class 6 for 12 years. Not once was I approached about selling components. No FFL is required to retail primers, powder, projectiles or cases. No FFL is required to sell loaded ammunition once the 11% FET is paid buy the manufacturer. Many convenience stores sell all of the above items without an FFL on premises. A Class 6 is required to legally manufacture ammunition for sale but not to retail it. ATFE agent in Boise said I could sell all the components I wanted, the Class 6 did not apply to them.

[supv26]

I had a Class 6 for 12 years. Not once was I approached about selling components. No FFL is required to retail primers, powder, projectiles or cases. No FFL is required to sell loaded ammunition once the 11% FET is paid buy the manufacturer. Many convenience stores sell all of the above items without an FFL on premises. A Class 6 is required to legally manufacture ammunition for sale but not to retail it. ATFE agent in Boise said I could sell all the components I wanted, the Class 6 did not apply to them.

I think this is correct................... cast lead is a component....................

[theperfessor]

I inferred from the OP's post that he would be the one "manufacturing" the "ammunition" that he would then "sell". Bullets are classed as "ammunition". 06 land for sure.

Why doesn't the OP offer to teach his friends to cast, and charge them to use his equipment? And supply their own lead when they show up. I guarantee there won't be one person out of twenty that will even pursue the conversation further. The folks that ask that are just trying to shoot cheap without committing to the process of being capable of doing so by themselves.

[462]

Guesser,
I stand corrected, and should have said manufacture not sell. I've edited my previous post.

+1 on theperfessor's last post.

[Guesser]

Ok!!!

[rmatchell]

perfessor... I think you might be on to something.

[Alan in Vermont]

I tend to think that the class 6 is required so they can audit your production and make sure they pass that to the IRS so they can be sure you paid up the 11% tax on components.

In the end it's all about the money.

Who woulda thunk it?

[nighthunter]

I have traded a few of mine for cash to a few individuals that I know very well. I tell them that they are paper weights and any thing else they do with them is up to them. I'm not looking to make money from bullets. Heck ... I had a job once for that.

Nighthunter

[rexherring]

I haven't sold any but the guys I give them to give me lead, powder, brass or primers as a gratuity.

[fcvan]

I haven't sold any boolits but I sure have bartered and exchanged a few. I have considered selling some unique paperweights and fishing sinkers :)

[Boyscout]

Perfessors right about offering to teach others to reload. I have offered a few select people and I get the same response. They are just looking for some cheap ammo and are not interested in learning. I have even gotten hold of some free dies and components for calibers I don't even own and they don't take me up on it. I would take raw materials and components and swap them free for the opportunity.

[woodrow]

I heard something about FET and maybe you guys can tell me if it's right or not - FET isnt for components. Its for loaded ammo. If you load and sell a complete cartridge then you'd need to pay or collect the FET. However if a customer provides you cases, you load them and sell the cartridges made with that same brass back to that customer then its exempt.

Similar to the rifle builds and I saw this on a manufacturer's website where if you order a lower receiver and an upper receiver on the same order then its eligible for FET. I'm thinking thats because they're an 07. But if you order separately or provide one of the receivers then its exempt.

If you're manufacturing projectiles there is no FET. Thats just what I heard. Will be applying for my 06 soon and will find out haaha.

[supv26]

I'd like to hear the outcome of this. I'm kind of along the lines with components being exempt also but who am I to say........



I heard something about FET and maybe you guys can tell me if it's right or not - FET isnt for components. Its for loaded ammo. If you load and sell a complete cartridge then you'd need to pay or collect the FET. However if a customer provides you cases, you load them and sell the cartridges made with that same brass back to that customer then its exempt.

Similar to the rifle builds and I saw this on a manufacturer's website where if you order a lower receiver and an upper receiver on the same order then its eligible for FET. I'm thinking thats because they're an 07. But if you order separately or provide one of the receivers then its exempt.

If you're manufacturing projectiles there is no FET. Thats just what I heard. Will be applying for my 06 soon and will find out haaha.

[Case Stuffer]

Correct 11% Fed.Exer.. Tax on completed rounds only , unless things have changed. Speaking of this tax many likley do notrealize that we the hunters voluntarily created and paid this tax to help fund the Fed. Wildlife Management programs so that we would have game to hunt and land to hunt on.

Like most taxs much of it is misused and in reality it should not have to be paid on the 99.9% of ammo that is used for target ,plinking,competation shooting.

[ku4hx]

About three years ago, I asked this very question of the ATF ... wish I'd kept the response. The basic question was could the widow of a caster legally sell her deceased husband's boolits. The answer was yes, because it was a limited quantity one-time sale (multiple buyers didn't seem to matter) and she was not acting as a business or business agent. The reply warned against the sale of cast boolits with the intent to make a profit and stated if the sale was intended to be a business venture, a license would be required.

Being that was about three years ago, things may have changed. And, you might get different answers from different agents. Sort of like differing "expert opinions" on tax questions.

[theperfessor]

It's not the sale of components that requires a FFL, it's the manufacture and sale that concern the Feds. If I bought 1000 cast bullets from a legal manufacturer and turned around and sold 500 of them to a friend as far as the ATF is concerned I'm OK. (There may be local or state laws involved, but only the IRS would be concerned about the income at the Federal level.) I didn't manufacture and sell the bullets.

If I cast them myself and sold them for the same price to the same person w/o the proper FFL then the ATF would have reason to get involved. Whether they would choose to do so is not something I would want to guess at and have to defend myself in court against.

[longbow]

Not sure of the exact laws in the US but this discussion has come up in the past and I believe that the biggest issue is taxes. The government wants their cut and they will get it it or you will be in trouble.

Alan in Vermont probably has it right in post #15. Not sure about an FFL to manufacture and sell cast boolits (not loaded ammunition) but you absolutely need an FFL to export ammunition, reloading components and firearms parts from the States. If is illegal to even mail a single boolit or any other reloading component to anyone outside the US without an FFL.

I used to buy most of my reloading supplies in Colville Washington a short ways across the border and even after 911, there was no problem. I actually called Homeland Security and US Customs to ask about legality because I had hear rumours. They said "no problem". However a few years ago but our local gun club issued a couple of bulletins one being from the ATF that says that non US citizens cannot be in possession of ammunition or reloading components except if they have a legal hunting license for the state they are in or are part of a registered match and they cannot export (take home) any ammunition or reloading components when they leave.

So, even with our restrictive Canadian gun laws, I can import 5000 rounds of ammunition at once with no problem but US laws will not allow me to do it from the States and any vendor has to have an FFL and I believe other government approved permits/documentation.

Reloading components include bullets and empty brass.

I repeat this in case anyone is thinking about exporting or even doing a boolit exchange with someone outside the US. I doubt Homeland Security or ATF would come done on someone who mailed a dozen boolits to a friend in Canada but technically it is a violation of a federal law.

So for internal restrictions, I think taxes are the big issue there not liability for cast boolits.

Longbow

[Rooster931]

Well never even thought this would be a hot topic. I guess the simple answer when they ask is "NO" thats the safe one I guess! Thank you all who ddiscussed this.

[jimgun]

the way I see it, it is the manufacturing part we are concerned with. anyone with a resale/tax license can sell any of the components ie powder, primers, cases, bullets. to manufacture powder and primers, one needs a license, because of the explosives. does this license also cover the manufacture of bullets? does any license specifically say bullets or lead or copper jackets or for that matter cases or the brass for cases? or am I looking at this to narrowly? thanks jim

[HATCH]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-gca-ammunition.html

end of discussion.

Gun Control Act Definitions
Ammunition

18 U.S.C., § 921(A)(17)(A)

The term “Ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm.

you need a FFL in order to sell boolits.

I suspect that you could sell boolits to your friends via word of mouth without getting into too much hassle. But technically its a no no.

[dverna]

And for those who think they can skirt the law. Bartering is viewed as a sale. Beware. PLUS>>>

You need to register with ITAR via the US State Department, even though you do not ever intend to export anything, you are now a producer of war materials. Cost is $2250.00 per year to start and goes up from there.

[supv26]

You are exempt in the eyes of the ATF in regards to explosives................

§ 555.141 Exemptions.
(a) General. Except for the provisions of §§ 555.180 and 555.181, this part does not apply to:

(1) Any aspect of the transportation of explosive materials via railroad, water, highway, or air which is regulated by the U.S. Department of Transportation and its agencies, and which pertains to safety. For example, regulations issued by the Department of Transportation addressing the security risk of aliens transporting explosives by commercial motor or railroad carrier from Canada preclude the enforcement of 18 U.S.C. 842(i)(5) against persons shipping, transporting, receiving, or possessing explosives incident to and in connection with the commercial transportation of explosives by truck or rail from Canada into the United States. Questions concerning this exception should be directed to ATF's Public Safety Branch in Washington, DC.

(2) The use of explosive materials in medicines and medicinal agents in the forms prescribed by the official United States Pharmacopeia or the National Formulary. “The United States Pharmacopeia and The National Formulary,” USP and NF Compendia, are available from the United States Pharmacopeial Convention, Inc., 12601 Twinbrook Parkway, Rockville, Maryland 20852.

(3) The transportation, shipment, receipt, or importation of explosive materials for delivery to any agency of the United States or to any State or its political subdivision.

(4) Small arms ammunition and components of small arms ammunition.

(5) The manufacture under the regulation of the military department of the United States of explosive materials for, or their distribution to or storage or possession by, the military or naval services or other agencies of the United States.

(6) Arsenals, navy yards, depots, or other establishments owned by, or operated by or on behalf of, the United States.

(7) The importation, distribution, and storage of fireworks classified as UN0336, UN0337, UN0431, or UN0432 explosives by the U.S. Department of Transportation at 49 CFR 172.101 and generally known as “consumer fireworks” or “articles pyrotechnic.”

(8) Gasoline, fertilizers, propellant actuated devices, or propellant actuated industrial tools manufactured, imported, or distributed for their intended purposes.

(9) Industrial and laboratory chemicals which are intended for use as reagents and which are packaged and shipped pursuant to U.S. Department of Transportation regulations, 49 CFR Parts 100 to 177, which do not require explosives hazard warning labels.

(10) Model rocket motors that meet all of the following criteria—

(i) Consist of ammonium perchlorate composite propellant, black powder, or other similar low explosives;

(ii) Contain no more than 62.5 grams of total propellant weight; and

(iii) Are designed as single-use motors or as reload kits capable of reloading no more than 62.5 grams of propellant into a reusable motor casing.

(b) Black powder. Except for the provisions applicable to persons required to be licensed under subpart D, this part does not apply with respect to commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed 50 pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, if the black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms, as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16) or antique devices, as exempted from the term “destructive devices” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4).

[T.D. ATF-87, 46 FR 40384, Aug. 7, 1981 as amended by T.D. ATF-87, 46 FR 46916, Sept. 23, 1981; T.D. ATF-293, 55 FR 3722, Feb. 5, 1990; T.D. ATF-387, 62 FR 8377, Feb. 25, 1997; T.D. ATF-400, 63 FR 45003, Aug. 24, 1998; ATF No. 1, 68 FR 13792, Mar. 20, 2003; ATF 6F, 71 FR 46101, Aug. 11, 2006]

[supv26]

OK, to melt wheel weights, cast bullets (little pieces of lead used as the projectile of a cartridge), and then you sell just those little pieces of lead you're saying an FFL is required? What records would you keep? Is there an A&D book for projectiles, (little pieces of lead)?

I understand that if you sell anything for a profit a county merchants license, City merchants license (if in the city limits), retail sales tax license (to collect and remit sales tax for the sale of goods) is required. This would include cast bullets, fishing sinkers, paper weights or anything else cast from lead or anything sold. But an FFL just to cast bullets (little pieces of lead)??
If you assemble the little pieces of lead (cast bullets) into a formed brass case with smokeless gun powder and a primer you've just created a "cartridge" and that requires a manufacturer's license if you intend to sell those for a profit and/or plan to export.

I'm still confused why a person would need an FFL to cast little pieces of lead and sell for a profit. Business licenses, merchant licenses, tax licenses, etc yes, but an FFL????????????


It's not the sale of components that requires a FFL, it's the manufacture and sale that concern the Feds. If I bought 1000 cast bullets from a legal manufacturer and turned around and sold 500 of them to a friend as far as the ATF is concerned I'm OK. (There may be local or state laws involved, but only the IRS would be concerned about the income at the Federal level.) I didn't manufacture and sell the bullets.

If I cast them myself and sold them for the same price to the same person w/o the proper FFL then the ATF would have reason to get involved. Whether they would choose to do so is not something I would want to guess at and have to defend myself in court against.

[jonp]

cast boolits are a component of manufacturing ammo much like brass. It is legal to sell as it is just inert lead until made into something that can fire.

[theperfessor]

All I can say is to read the rules as published. Making up your own definitions may satisfy you but it won't satisfy the ATF.

But go ahead and sell all the damn bullets you want to, just don't whine here when the ATF uses the legal definition of "ammunition" and hauls you to court.

[462]

Supv26,
If all the previous posts haven't provided you with sufficient enough information, perhaps it's time to do things yourself. E-mail or phone the ATF, or go to their web-site and do a search. I've had several phone conversation with them, and they were always very polite and helpful.

The law is the law. Question it all you want, try to rationalize it all you want, bang your head against a wall all you want, disobey it all you want, but in the end, it remains the law.

[jimgun]

Hatch, I am sorry but I don't see where it says that an FFL is needed to sell ammunition. maybe you can be more specific?

[dverna]

Supv26,
If all the previous posts haven't provided you with sufficient enough information, perhaps it's time to do things yourself. E-mail or phone the ATF, or go to their web-site and do a search. I've had several phone conversation with them, and they were always very polite and helpful.

The law is the law. Question it all you want, try to rationalize it all you want, bang your head against a wall all you want, disobey it all you want, but in the end, it remains the law.


Well put sir!!!

This reminds me of a saying my mentor had, "You cannot teach common sense".

[supv26]

462, I have and it's not the ATF, it falls under the TTB FAET............................................

The people on here saying they need to have an FFL to sell bullets are the ones that need to do a bit of research!


Supv26,
If all the previous posts haven't provided you with sufficient enough information, perhaps it's time to do things yourself. E-mail or phone the ATF, or go to their web-site and do a search. I've had several phone conversation with them, and they were always very polite and helpful.

The law is the law. Question it all you want, try to rationalize it all you want, bang your head against a wall all you want, disobey it all you want, but in the end, it remains the law.

[RayinNH]

Even if it were perfectly fine to sell the boolits without a license the liability alone were someone to get hurt or shot with one of them would scare me to death. Too many bleeping lawyers...Ray

[HATCH]

Hatch, I am sorry but I don't see where it says that an FFL is needed to sell ammunition. maybe you can be more specific?


He said it here


All I can say is to read the rules as published. Making up your own definitions may satisfy you but it won't satisfy the ATF.

But go ahead and sell all the damn bullets you want to, just don't whine here when the ATF uses the legal definition of "ammunition" and hauls you to court.

The BATFE uses the legal definition when it takes people to court or to jail.
You can not argue with what is clearly defined in black and white.

It states you must have a ffl to make ammunition. It clearly defines ammunition to include loaded, primers, powder, bullets, ect.
Now you can argue the boolits aren't bullets. Good luck with that.

Now will you get harassed about selling cast boolits. Two years ago I would say no. But in Today's climate I wouldn't take the chance.



Edit - its not to sell its to make. I can sell cast boolits I just can't make them and sell what I make.

[theperfessor]

To "manufacture and sell" yes you do. To merely sell, don't think so.

If it looks remotely like a bullet the ATF will call it a bullet, it doesn't matter if you call them sail boat weights, hood ornaments, or anything else. If they held up one of your "sail boat weights" next to the picture of a dozen similar looking items (all commercially advertised as BULLETS) in front of a jury of ignorant people what do you think they will conclude? That you were trying to use a pretty stupid dodge to try and evade the law, that what!

Remember, the distinction is "manufacture and sell ammo" where ammo is defined as bullets and not just completed cartridges, and "sell ammo".

[462]

You can get into the excise tax, too, if you want, but that doesn't make the manufacturing and selling of the ATF's definition of ammunition (casting bullets and selling them to your friends) exempt from an 06 FFL.

Do as you wish. I give up.

[supv26]

2. What agency collects FAET?

Since its inception in 1919, different Federal agencies have been responsible for overseeing the collection of FAET. From 1919 to 1990, the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) was responsible for collecting FAET. On January 1, 1991 , this function was transferred from the IRS to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF).

On November 25, 2002 , President Bush signed into law the Homeland Security Act of 2002. The Homeland Security Act divided the functions of ATF into two new agencies: the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) in the Department of Justice and the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB) in the Department of the Treasury. On January 24, 2003 , TTB became responsible for administering the collection of FAET and handling the regulatory and taxation aspects of the alcohol and tobacco industries. The TTB's National Revenue Center performs all duties supporting the collection of FAET.

" [Refer to Industry Circular 2003-2] " and the link should link to that particular page.


http://www.ttb.gov/firearms/faet-faqs.shtml

5. Where does FAET not apply?

FAET does not apply to:

Non-portable weapons (such as cannons)

Any device that does not use an explosive to expel a projectile such as:

Air pistols
Air rifles
[Refer to Revenue Ruling 67-453]

Starter pistols that use blank ammunition
[Refer to Revenue Ruling 60-233]

Individual parts of firearms such as :

Frames
Receivers
Barrels
Magazines
Sights
[Refer to 27 CFR 53.61(b) (5) (ii)]

Any extra or spare parts that come with a firearm such as:

Extra barrels
Extra sights
Spare magazines
Spare cylinders
[Refer to 27 CFR 53.61(b)(5)(iii) and Revenue Ruling 54-98]

Accessories such as:

Cleaning equipment
Slings
Slip on recoil pads
Tools
[Refer to 27 CFR 53.61(b)(5)(iv) and Revenue Ruling 54-98]

Separate parts of ammunition such as:

Cartridge cases
Primers
Bullets
Powder
[Refer to Revenue Ruling 68-463]

[theperfessor]

Paying the excise tax (or not, on components) is a completely different issue from the license needed for the "manufacture and sale" of ammunition, where bullets are considered ammunition by definition.

Edit to add:

From the link in the previous post-

4. How does FAET relate to other provisions of law and regulations?

The laws and regulations regarding FAET are in addition to, and not a substitute for, any other provisions of laws and regulations. You must comply with other Federal laws and regulations governing the manufacture and importation of firearms and ammunition (such as the Gun Control Act, the National Firearms Act, and the Arms Export Control Act). You must also comply with all state and local laws and regulations.

[jonp]

Well never even thought this would be a hot topic. I guess the simple answer when they ask is "NO" thats the safe one I guess! Thank you all who ddiscussed this.
You need to be a bit more specific. Are you talking about loaded ammo or cast boolits? I load some boolits for a couple of friends every now and then as does a lot of people on this forum. They supply me with their brass and I load light target loads for them for the cost of the components.
Couple of rules for me:
1) No max loads, ever. All loads near bottom end for target practice only. You want full house +P? Buffalo Bore will sell you all you want.

2)Pistol only and in calibers of firearms I have so I can test for feeding myself and for modern firearms only. Have an old police special or WW2 45 Auto? Sorry. 40 Cal? I don't have one, can't test the ammo myself so not making it for any reason. If you want to buy me a 40Cal so I can load you 50 rounds of practice ammo then we can talk.

3)No self defense rounds. Never trust your life to someone elses "homemade" ammunition. Practice with boolits and buy yourself a box of Gold Dots like I do. I trust my boolits but I still buy my self defense ammo. How much is your life worth to you? Mine is worth a great deal more than the $25 or $30 a box of ammo costs.

4)You want a thousand rounds? Buy it. 50 or so once in a while then ok but I want to shoot with you first to make sure you are a safe operator and know what you are doing and what you need to look for like ftf's, stuck bullets etc that you would normally look for with true commercial ammo and know what to do if you encounter it.

I look at this as a way to get people interested in cast boolits and into reloading it for themselves. When they see that this target stuff does go bang and make holes in paper and the cost savings over buying it then a giant light usually goes on for them. I also bring my Lee Hand Press and powder and let them make a couple for themselves and fire them right on the spot. This is usually all it takes to get them hooked.

None of this is done for people I don't know, friends only. I think the ATF is about as interested in this as going after a homebrewer for giving a friend a six pack of beer like I do on occasion. They have bigger fish to fry than this.

[Case Stuffer]

OP


Liability of selling cast Bullets I just wondered what everyones opinion is on selling cast bullets. With the ammo crissis in full swing I have had several people ask me to sell them bullets. I know we all trade/sell them on this sight and I would not be concerned with that. Folks on this sight know obviously about cast bullets, loads and guns. Any thoughts?



Thus now the OP has his answer and some other now understand while other seem to confused by the off tanget Tax issues.

Casting or Swaging is indeed considered Manufacturing and requires a Class 06 or perhaps a Class 07 FFL. Over thirty years ago I had a Class 06 and recording keeping pre computer days was a royal PITA ,after around 6-8 years I gave up my Class 06 and thus my sideline ammo business. I have read tha nowdays indivual ammo records / reporting is no longer required.

In most states and cities one must have a business liceness and a state sales tax. number as well as a Federal Elpoyers Tax Number and all Fed. State,County Taxs must be collected,reported and paid.

[Adam10mm]

I love these thread topics. Separates the people that know what they are talking about with those that have no clue. Credentials: I started as an 06 FFL bullet caster, ammunition manufacturer in 2006, changed to an 07 FFL bullet caster, ammunition manufacturer, firearm manufacturer, gunsmith in 2007.


I just wondered what everyones opinion is on selling cast bullets. With the ammo crissis in full swing I have had several people ask me to sell them bullets. I know we all trade/sell them on this sight and I would not be concerned with that. Folks on this sight know obviously about cast bullets, loads and guns. Any thoughts?
Legal licensing aside for a moment, there really isn't much liability in my eyes for cast bullets. You have no control over the loading process. Then again, not to scare you, but to put you in line with society's mentality, for every product you sell, there's a half dozen lawyers wanting to blame you for something wrong.


I had a Class 6 for 12 years. Not once was I approached about selling components. No FFL is required to retail primers, powder, projectiles or cases. No FFL is required to sell loaded ammunition once the 11% FET is paid buy the manufacturer. Many convenience stores sell all of the above items without an FFL on premises. A Class 6 is required to legally manufacture ammunition for sale but not to retail it. ATFE agent in Boise said I could sell all the components I wanted, the Class 6 did not apply to them.
Correct. FET applies only to fully loaded ammunition, not ammunition components. No FFL is required to resell ammunition or ammunition components, only those that you manufacture yourself. The Type 06 FFL is a manufacturer of ammunition, not retailer.

I tend to think that the class 6 is required so they can audit your production and make sure they pass that to the IRS so they can be sure you paid up the 11% tax on components.

In the end it's all about the money.

Who woulda thunk it?
FET is only due on completely loaded ammunition, not components. The FET was in place decades before an FFL was required to make ammunition. You're a little off on your theory. FFLs didn't come about until 1968. The Pittman-Robertson Act is much older than that.

I heard something about FET and maybe you guys can tell me if it's right or not - FET isnt for components. Its for loaded ammo. If you load and sell a complete cartridge then you'd need to pay or collect the FET. However if a customer provides you cases, you load them and sell the cartridges made with that same brass back to that customer then its exempt.
That is entirely correct.


Similar to the rifle builds and I saw this on a manufacturer's website where if you order a lower receiver and an upper receiver on the same order then its eligible for FET. I'm thinking thats because they're an 07. But if you order separately or provide one of the receivers then its exempt.
Has to do with the "knockdown condition" of selling. If you sell a firearm in "knockdown condition", ie all parts needed to assemble to a firearm, that's the same as manufacturing and FET is due. That's why the AR15 "rifle kits" are sold without a lower receiver; then it's not a "complete" firearm kit and thus no FET.


If you're manufacturing projectiles there is no FET.
Correct.

It's not the sale of components that requires a FFL, it's the manufacture and sale that concern the Feds.
Correct.


OK, to melt wheel weights, cast bullets (little pieces of lead used as the projectile of a cartridge), and then you sell just those little pieces of lead you're saying an FFL is required? What records would you keep? Is there an A&D book for projectiles, (little pieces of lead)?
Yes. Reference the GCA of 1968. Don't get cute either. The ATF will destroy you. No records required unless they are armor piercing ammunition.


I understand that if you sell anything for a profit a county merchants license, City merchants license (if in the city limits), retail sales tax license (to collect and remit sales tax for the sale of goods) is required. This would include cast bullets, fishing sinkers, paper weights or anything else cast from lead or anything sold. But an FFL just to cast bullets (little pieces of lead)??
Yup, if it's a bullet, doesn't matter the process of manufacture, that's FFL territory.


If you assemble the little pieces of lead (cast bullets) into a formed brass case with smokeless gun powder and a primer you've just created a "cartridge" and that requires a manufacturer's license if you intend to sell those for a profit and/or plan to export.
Yup. Welcome to 1968.


I'm still confused why a person would need an FFL to cast little pieces of lead and sell for a profit. Business licenses, merchant licenses, tax licenses, etc yes, but an FFL????????????
OK, really? Because the Gun Control Act of 1968 says so. It defines what is ammunition and it creates and defines different types of federal firearms licenses for dealers, manufacturers, and importers.


cast boolits are a component of manufacturing ammo much like brass. It is legal to sell as it is just inert lead until made into something that can fire.
Correct. That's the idea.

462, I have and it's not the ATF, it falls under the TTB FAET............................................

The people on here saying they need to have an FFL to sell bullets are the ones that need to do a bit of research!
You are confusing selling bullets with selling bullet that you manufactured. Big difference. If you make and sell, you need an FFL, ITAR, local & state licensing. If you only resell, you only need local/state licensing. Casting is a manufacturing process. Casting and selling those lead bullets is an act of manufacturing ammunition according to the Gun Control Act of 1968 and is subject to such regulation. Welcome to the republic of the United States of America. The law applies the same to you as it does to me.

[257]

My 2 cents worth when we order new ammo or componets powder primers bullits brass or nloaded ammo all we need is a retail tax number (state retailers lic.) because the fed tax has already been payed now when we order bullits in bulk .224 7000 in a case on a 06 we get them for a much cheaper price, but when we assemble it in to finished ammo we are liable for the fed tax but only after we assemble it i can have 20,000 bullits in bulk but until i load it it's not taxed also most wholesalers if they catch you sell stuff that you bought on your 06 for retail they will cut you off and not sell you any more on 06 pricing

[Boolseye]

All technicalities aside: is anyone here aware of anyone that has ever had legal trouble for selling cast bullets?

[Shiloh]

Can you get away with it? Probably. Is it worth the risk? You decide. I don't want to be the test case for this, I've given away bullets but I won't sell them.

Twice right here on the forum.
I will not sell them, nor do I reload for others. Folks have finally quit asking.

Shiloh

[Adam10mm]

All technicalities aside: is anyone here aware of anyone that has ever had legal trouble for selling cast bullets?
Yes. My ATF IOI that audited me back in 2012 had stated she investigated several cases of people either casting bullets or reloading ammo and selling it. Charges were filed against them and the deal struck was if they got the FFL, the ATF would drop the charges.

[GLynn41]

Having several unique molds I am sure that I could sell the bullets from them but I am also convinced that I am not goin to do that-need FFL or what ever, then the taxes --I make war materials now-- nope - no way give yes I have give a number away here to board memebers in trade or just becasue they asked-- but sell or put them up on Gun broker no even though I am sure they would sell -no