I want to learn machining and gunsmithing

[cavalrymedic]

I am pondering purchasing a small mill and lathe and learning to make things related to my gun hobby. I envision making trigger parts, maybe firearm receivers (with a manufacturers FFL of course) maybe barrels, or learning to cut chambers, crown muzzles, run threads, and likely 1000 other things. I figure the initial investment will be substantial. I have been looking at the Sherline products, both CNC and hand operated. Would it be prudent to get the hand operated models first, then add CNC later as I get more skilled?

Of the two, would I be better served buying a lathe first, or a mill first? Are there forums for novice hobbiests such as myself? And, is it possible to use a lathe or a mill to cut rifling into a barrel, or is that another piece of specialized equipment?

So many questions.

Ken

[No_1]

Becoming a machinist is not something you can do by yourself in your shop AND like reloading it is very costly. I suggest you visit the local community college to see if they have a few classes you can take which will give you an idea of what it is in store for you.

[williamwaco]

Get the lathe first.

Get a good one. Not one of these tinker toy things like Harbor Freight sells.



You can add a milling attachment to it that will do 90% of anything you need.

[cavalrymedic]

No1, I looked at my local community college and the only tech class they have is Arc Welding. There aren't any technical schools in my area. I just want to do this as a hobby, and as an adjunct to my other hobbies of shooting, reloading, casting, and farming.

Are there any good books to read on the topic?

[dbosman]

I work in a research library so I like books. But, I went to a high school that turned out machinists.
An awful lot of machining is better taught by having a skilled teacher watching over your shoulder.
My suggestion is to find a local machinist who shoots who's willing to mentor you.

[Marvin S]

The old southbend book (how to run a lathe) is dated but good for manual lathes. You really need to find a vo-tec school if your ambitions are that large. Watch some youtube videos and do some lookin at practicalmachinist.com.

[country gent]

Find a machinist or tool and die maker and become his "apprentice" Ive been working in shops since I was 15 years old have a tool and die maker repair Journeymans card and still dont know it all after 35 years in the trade. Schools are good books are good also but nothing beats experience gained over years guiding you thru. Thats why the old apprentice system worked so well. Its also why an apprenticeship got your card in four years instead of 7 for just experience. Listen and chat with older gentleman find a few who have are working in the trades and ask questions of them, most are overjoyed to pass knowledge along.

[MBTcustom]

I am a machinist, and have been for 15 years. I have been gunsmithing under the table for about as long. I finally decided to do it for real, and whoh-ho baby! Even with all my experience making everything from precision PI molds, to parts for space, I felt like I was back at my first job slugging it out over a junky lathe, scrapping parts at every turn. It's getting easier, now that I have had enough firearms cross my bench to get the feel of the trade, but I still get stumped every now and then and have to scream for help like a girl. Fortunately, there are several expert gunsmiths that are willing to give their time to help out a feller in need of guidance.

You are asking for a lot in your OP. You are interested in a trade that takes years of experience to stand on your own two feet without somebody standing over your shoulder telling you what to do step by step.

Gunsmithing is like machining on steroids, with heat treating, woodcarving, forging, welding, plumbing, electricity, surface finish, ultra precision, and art thrown in there. Sprinkle on a little bit of "don't screw up or you'll get sued" (the reason many gunsmiths are men of prayer) and you get a pretty good idea of what its like.

I say all that to emphasise that you get yourself a teacher! Somewhere, somehow, that should be as big a priority as getting the machine tools. (besides, most gunsmithing involves hand tools anyway)

If you're like me, you learn by doing. So jump in and start hacking out a spot for yourself. It will take a while, but every hour you can spend with somebody that is really good at this stuff will be worth its weight in gold, and will drastically reduce the learning curve.
Hope it helps!

[cavalrymedic]

I hope I am not giving anyone the impression that I want to go from zero to pro. I just want to start learning the basics of machining and see where it takes me. I will look around and see if I can find a professional machinist who is willing to be a mentor. Thanks for the advice guys.

[oldred]

At least get some basic training even if it means just getting "an old hand" to come over and give you some pointers to get started. If you just buy the equipment, read a book or two and go at it you will most likely end up just frustrated with the whole endeavor or worse you could very easily get hurt! No saying you might not be safety conscious but lathes/mills can be insidious and sneaky about how they get you! Tooling is expensive, even more so than the basic equipment, and learning on your own will almost certainly result in far more expense in tooling and project damage than hiring a tutor for a couple of days, just a few hours of "hands on" with a pro will make all the difference in the world.




Get a good one. Not one of these tinker toy things like Harbor Freight sells

+1 on that! IMO it's a serious mistake to buy small cheap equipment with the intention of using it to learn on before buying bigger later. Not only will doing that be a waste of money the fact is these things are frustrating to use, limited in their abilities and generally just poor tools to learn on. For a lathe I think the 12x36 is the minimum although some guys are quite happy (and rightly so) with some smaller machines IF they are good quality old American or European industrial machines, the new small Chinese lathes/mills are mostly junk. I have to take exception to the Harbor Freight comment however, not trying to stick up for Harbor Freight, because those small machines are poor quality no matter who sells them! Harbor Freight lathes for example are the same machines sold under other brand names but just a different color, a HF 9x20 lathe is the EXACT same machine as a Jet brand 9x20 but costs half as much money, the older Jets were identical but the newer ones have some cosmetic changes in an attempt to make them appear different. How do I know for sure they are the same? I owned both of the things at the same time, I paid $1200 for a Jet 9x20 and later traded some other items to a guy for a HF 9x20 and the ONLY differences were the name, color and price, at the time $1199.00 for the Jet vs $599.00 for the HF version. The point is if you are going to buy an import the larger machines (12x36 and up lathes) are generally decent quality but machines that appear to be the same except for color and brand name will be the same no matter who is selling it and pricing varies wildly on these things.


Another example of Harbor Freight machines vs Enco, vs Birmingham, vs etc, being the same was a few years ago HF's 14x40 heavy lathe (a darn good machine BTW) actually came with a Birmingham parts/owners manual, the Birmingham cost a heck of a lot more money! HF's machine tools are the same as everyone sells and should not be confused with the worthless tool shaped objects they sell in their stores, the heavy machine tools can be a bargain.

[GRUMPA]

Well I guess I'll ad my .02 worth into this thread. Not actually a machinist per-se but more like a precision grinder in an earo-space machine shop. While goodsteel has some very sound advise I'll add just a bit more.

A good machine or great machine will get work done, it's all the stuff after the machine that costs more than the machine itself. All the tools afterwards start to add up in a short time and when everything is said and done the cost of the machine doesn't look so bad.

[Cane_man]

if you can't get a live person to mentor you then just get one of those $300 bench top lathes and use youtube, bing, and the good people here on CB as your friend... that is what i did 10 years ago, and i have learned to do just about anything i need to do for my hobbies...

this guy was my "internet mentor", who i never talked but studied his pages, and it got me started:

www.varmintal.com/alath.htm

[FrankG]

In your follow up post you mention you want to add some to your other intrests . It fits and Ill add its doable , I did it . I am no machinest but if I want something I can usually make it . You have to have the hunger for the knowledge to be able to do it . And be hard headed enough to not say quit ! There are lots of good books , the South Bend one was mentioned above. Also do a search for machining sites , look at scribd.com , yahoo.com for discussion groups, littlemachineshop.com has some info , Gunsmithing Simplified by McFarland has dated but useful info in it . Keep digging and learning you will never learn it all or know it all . Use your head , think things through before starting the work .

Look to Amazon and ebay for gun digest gunsmithing books , lots of good info in them . Theres one called Hobby Gunsmithing also. These books will give you an idea as to tools you can use but for most part you dont need them all . Just get what you need as needed .

Best way to never make a mistake is to not do nothing at all !

Make chips , learn by doing , read some more , do some more . Be safe and be aware of where your body parts are or the machine will remind you in a vicious fashion by removing them !

A older heavy lathe can be found at a reasonable price if you are patient . 12 x 36 with 1-1/4 bore thru headstock spindle will do most things . A quick change gearbox is preferable over a change gear machine.

A good heavy solid drill press is used a lot also as is a good bench grinder .

If its something you really want to do you can do it . Heck the old fashioned Library may even have a book or two on gunsmithing !

Look for Clyde Baker , Howe , Dunlop , Mcfarland to name a few.

Ya only go around once , so why not enjoy it while you are here ?!!

[cavalrymedic]

Thank you to everyone with the excellent advice. I am going to hire someone to come for a few days and help guide me and give me some hands on. I did that for my son when I bought a welder years ago. I hired a local welder to come out and spend a few days with him teaching him the basics of wire feed welding. It was worth more than I paid for and he welds better than I do, though I'm catching up! I also need to find a good machine shop that I can hang out in and watch what goes on.

There are a few older lathes on auction at Government Liquidation that look really solid to me, if not a little rusty. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like I could always start with a manual mill and lathe and if I ever decide to use CNC, I could add stepper motors and controles later.

One of the reasons I am doing this now is that my youngest is finally 18 and I can now buy nice tools and not have him destroy/misplace/break/lose/hide/misuse/or turn them into things they were not designed to be or do. I have bought so many drill bits, hammer handles, power tools, only to have them go missing that I have waited until now to invest in any high quality tools and equipment.

[Zombie Whisperer]

Find a part time job in a small gun friendly shop that is cool with you working on your own stuff on your time in the shop. I trade shop time and instruction for work all the time, and everyone wins.

[castormd]

Machinery Handbook, Tubel Cain - youtube videos, practical machinist.com, Ebay/metalworking tooling, yard sales, garage sales, craig's list- under tools. I am about a year into where you are headed. What a nice destination. Don't jump into every machine and tool you see until you learn the prices. You don't have to buy everything tomorrow, but if you are serious, everything will work out for you, over time. Good Luck, Rich

[cavalrymedic]

Thanks Rich. The first thing I want to work on is powder and shot bushings for my CH and Pacific shotshell reloaders.

[williamwaco]

After reading Goodsteel,

I suggest you locate a broken gun.

Buy it.

And see if you can fix it.

That should keep you busy and pick up some education at the same time.

If you succeed, then think about building, an AR style rifle from parts.

If you get this far, you will know two things:

You have the aptitude or you don't

If you do, you will have an idea what you want to work on.

[oldred]

Don't jump into every machine and tool you see until you learn the prices. You don't have to buy everything tomorrow



Agreed, I found it's best to start with just the basics and wait until the need arises, which it will quite often, before buying tooling. Making a list of what might be needed and/or just buying what you think you might need usually results in a lot of little, if ever, used expensive tools. After doing a few projects you will have a much better idea of what you really need to fit your specific needs.

[John Taylor]

I joined the old farts club a while back and one of the things I have learned is that God give different talents to different people. Not everyone makes a good mechanic, machinist, artiest or whatever. For some it will be easy to learn machine work and for others it will be like me trying to learn a different language. My wife can play piano, guitar and violin, the only musical instrument I play is the canon (1812 overture). We have had many discussions about the talents that different people have and it seems, as some people put it " a natural talent". One of the thing I was able to do was build a rifling machine from scratch with no plans, just a picture in my minds eye of what I wanted. When my kids were growing up I told them to look for a job they enjoyed doing. Surprise, it would be a job where those natural talents come in. You want to be a machinist? First thing you need is the desire, then find out if you have any natural talent in that area. I started playing with a lathe in high school. They only had a 6" south bend and the only ones allowed to touch it were those with a B grade or better in shop class. It's a good thing they didn't look at my English class grade, the F would not have helped much. My father was the city mechanic and they had an old 14" lathe that had the motor mounted on the wall about 8' up. I would go there after school and use the old lathe to bore out the cylinder on my Honda 50. Learned a lot on fit and tolerance way back then. Bought my first lathe when I was 22, a little toy mini max. Didn't take long before I realized it was a waist of money. Then I traded a riding lawn mower for a 6" Atlas. Bought a new 12" with all the attachments for $3,500 in 1977. You can find almost the same thing today for under $2,000. Sense then I have gone through a few more lathes and have three in the shop now.
Gunsmithing was a hobby for years, then I found myself without a job and gave it some consideration as a new income. Now I can't keep up with the work load. I have had a few people that want to learn and I am always willing to help but got the lawyer scare a few years back about someone might get hurt in my shop. I would be willing to take on an apprentice but there is not enough money to pay for insurance to cover someone ells.

[oldred]

One of the thing I was able to do was build a rifling machine from scratch with no plans, just a picture in my minds eye of what I wanted.


Being right in the middle of building such a machine right now for ML barrels I know what's involved and that one line speaks volumes about your natural talent, my hat's off to you on that one for sure!

[nekshot]

nothing builds confidence like fixing something . For 45 years I have been taking guns apart fixing what I could (never found one I could not fix), found my niche is more in the wood side and built a neat duplicating machine. 10 years ago I bought a emco Austrian maximat v10-p, a mill drill identical to grizzly go705 and tooling for around 1200.oo. I had the torch and welding stuff for many years.Bluing I chose the belgian and pinkington route. I say this that you can do this on your own by reading, asking questions and trying things with your own stuff. I have never been stomped and needed a pro to bail me out but I came close more than once. I am not a gunsmith but judging the stuff that I hear and see in my area I more than qualify This is my hobby and passion!

[HollowPoint]

It's evident from the replies that everyone has their preferred method of going about reaching their goals.

In my case, I started with the cheap little Harbor Freight bench-top mill and lathe. (and a couple of 20 percent discount coupons) Although the word, "Learned" is possibly a misnomer in this case, I "Learned" how to use a lathe and mill by buying and using these cheap little Chinese made toys.

It's true that they're far from the ideal machinery we would like to have but, don't under estimate the capability; especially when you have NO machinery to begin with. I was able to make alot of pretty cool stuff with these cheesy little Harbor Freight toys that many folks look down on.

I am "Self-Taught." Only in hind sight am I able to agree with others on this thread when they suggest some kind of schooling or mentoring. When you're "Self-Taught," you basically have an ignorant person as your teacher but, if you really want to learn, you have to start somewhere. Before I got these tools, any gunsmithing I did was done with hack-saws, metal files and alot of foul language.

I still own and use the little Harbor Freight mini-mill but, I have since upgraded to a CNC Hobby mill. I sold off the mini-lathe and upgraded to a slightly larger bench-top model. I'm presently in the process of tracking down a good used SouthBend lathe and if I don't come across one soon I'll just keep saving up for the Gunsmithing lathe I originally started saving up for.

The upgrades are done in incremental steps. The more you learn about using metal working machinery, the more you realize that maybe it's time to upgrade. For me, the actual purchases also hinged on wether I could afford it or not. I bought the Harbor Freight machines because that's all I could afford.

In an ongoing effort to stay out of debt, I don't spend money I don't have. If I want or need a new machine, I save up for it. Some times it takes years to save up.

HollowPoint

[W.R.Buchanan]

Cavalrymedic: I hope you haven't bought a machine yet simply because you don't know what to buy or how to use it. It is a big msitake to buy something like this with the intention of learning how to use it, only to find out later it is not what you need.

Many here will give you suggestions of which machine is the best for their work, but their work is not your work. It is all pointless drivel until you understand what you are trying to accomplish, and learn how to do it.

Once you learn what you want to do you can then go about tooling up to do it. Being a machinist, is not being a gunsmith. It helps but there is so much more to it than that.

Pat Sweeny has a real nice book about gunsmithing. He's fairly well known in the Gunsmithing world and writes columns for G&A and has for many years. IN his book he doesn't even recommend buying a milling machine citing most gunsmith type jobs can be done on a drill press with several jigs and fixtures. He's right!

I have gone down this road before. I actually own a working machine shop, (which I should be in making money right now!)

Learn how,,, then as you need them, aquire the tools.

The other road I went down was learning to Fly. I went and bought an Airplane. I really wanted an airplane, afterall I was a airplane mechanic in the AF so I got what I thought I wanted,,, a 1947 Cessna 140. Great little airplane for flying around in circles. But it damn sure wasn't what I needed. Very, very, expensive mistake! Selling a used airplane is far worse than selling a used boat. It took over a year and I lost my ****! Hell, I lost my **** just keeping it for two years. I spent nearly $20k on learning to fly and "nearly" getting my license. My friend rented planes and got his license in two months. He had <$3k in it.

What I actually needed was a "RENTED Cessna 150" that someone else had to keep and maintain.

You don't need a lathe and a mill. You need to "learn how to use a lathe and a mill," and a drill press, and files, and screwdrivers, and hammers, and chisels ETC ETC. Best to practice on someone elses machines.

If you are really serious about this, then you need to find a job at a local machine shop, or go to a gunsmithing school and learn the craft.

You will see after one week how right I am about this.

Randy

[oldred]

Cavalrymedic: The other road I went down was learning to Fly.Randy



I can relate to that one! Mine was a 1968 Cessna 150 and the two happiest days of my life was the day I bought it and the day I sold that money pit!

Sorry about getting off topic.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Old Red: I did love the thing, but it was kind of like having a really hot crazy girlfriend.

Fun at first but soon realizing that the cons outwieghed the pro's,,,

and then finally realizing you can't wait to see her leave, cuz she looks so good walking away!

Randy

[dudits]

i have to agree with all that have mentioned having a mentor with time to give you hands on time.
i learned to blow glass by myself. many years spent figuring out things, that someone could have showed me in a few days.
there is also natural gift and learned gift.

[jmorris]

I think you want both.

When I started, the friend/mentor told me that a lathe was the only machine capable to reproduce itself.

I can't say that this is in fact these days but they are more versatile, IF you have a lot of time for set up. This might lead you to a 3 in one machine but then setup is even longer for any given operation.

If I were a "new guy" I would start with a lathe. Pretty hard to od thread round parts, for example with a non CNC mill. Also a CNC mill, while being great to spit out a lot of the same parts, is a pain for one part (at least if it is a simple one).

W.R. is correct, it will take you a life time to "forest gump" yourself toward the knowledge that someone else has already learned. There is a lot more "tricks" to it than just clamping a hunk of metal into something and hitting the button.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Love it when people say "well why don't we just CNC it." They have no clue, and they figure that a CNC machine is just like a Replicator from Star Trek. You just put a piece of material in and push the green button,,,,, NOT!

What people don't realize is that you have to tell a CNC machine B]EVERY SINGLE MOVE TO MAKE FROM BEGINNING TO END[/B] There is no magic program that makes the part for you. You have to tell it what to do.

IN order to do that,,, You must first know how to make parts!

It is not prudent to learn the basics of how to make parts on an automated machine. You do that on manual machines, then you take that knowledge and apply it to making parts on a CNC.

My whole point here is you need to learn before you buy. And it is best to learn on Someone Elses Machines. Then you at least have a chance of buying what you need to do what you want because, hopefully, you will know how to do what you want.

It took me 7 years of working shops before I really understood what I really needed to open a machine shop. I did that in my garage, and I had alot of help from friends with aquiring equipment. I also did it at night after I worked all day at my Day Job! I even got work from my day job.

My first Real Machine was a Bridgeport Mill that I bought from a friend for $2000 specifically to make custom folding knives. I got the machine set up and running in about 3 weeks in my 1 car garage. Then he started feeding me work. I have never to this day, nearly 30 years later, made a folding knife. I have a machine shop instead.

I also already had two knife grinding machines that I built myself, two drill presses, and air compressor, and many power and hand tools before I got that mill.

That same friend "gave me" An older Hardinge Chucker shortly there after with the stipulation that I would pay him for it when I made enough money to do so. 3 years later I gave him $2300 for that machine.

I have another friend who had worn out that same Hardinge Chucker twice before it ever left Statham Industries. Since he knew my machine better than I did I had him come in and make parts on that machine for many years before his back gave out. He could stand in front of that machine for 8 hours strait and crank out parts. You don't learn how to do that in a few minutes, and after 25 years of running that machine I'm good for about 1 hour max!

Lots to this, and that's why I emphatically suggest that you learn before you buy some *** that is not going to do what you want.

Randy

[John Taylor]

Being a full time gunsmith I get asked a lot about getting into the smithing business , Standard answer is " don't quit your day job". For me being a gunsmith was a hobby for many years and I had most of what I needed to go into it full time, two lathes, two mills and lots of other tools. Then I got the push when my job went away and I had to pay bills. A night coarse at a collage om machining might be a good place to start. I lucked out many years ago and there was a gunsmithing coarse at the local collage, I took it so I could use their bluing tanks. Problem was the other students found out I was a machinist and used up some of my time doing work for them.

[BigJohn8705]

I don't believe it was said yet but I was just looking at the gunsmithing classes that the NRA offers. They fill up quick so you would have to plan for next year. The ones I was looking at out of NC told you what tools and supplies you will need for the course and they range from 3 days to 2 weeks.

[oldred]

The best part about this is that even if the gunsmithing part does not work out home machining is probably the most rewarding hobby you can get into, the sky's the limit and a lot of times it will actually pay for itself or even become profitable. I bought my lathe to restore some old farm tractors and quickly graduated to gun parts but the guns/gun parts is just a hobby while the tractor parts quickly became a part time job that actually paid for the lathe in a few months.

[257]

don't by a cnc first i just retired from 40+ years in the machining trades job ,tool and die and mold work. one of my last jobs was running a machining line 15 cnc machines conveyers selfteaching 7 axis robots point being there ideal candate for a job was 40+years old with at least 10 years of manuel machining exp. they said they could hire young guys that new programing but when things didn't work they didn't know why or how to fix it as far as info go to smart flix.com they have a set of vidieos one on lathe one on mills these are very good if you rent them when you get them copy them then you have them for referance. but the best thing is to get a machine and start making little things for yourself have a good one 257