Confirm my suspicions?

[Bulltipper]

Boolit is a 311413 , cast from 100% clip-on WW alloy, copper GC. Drops .311 - My bore slugs .308 - I'm sizing to .309. Lube is an old favorite that has been great in my 1911, beeswax, WL grease and a little bit of ATF. First 5 shots from a cold barrel through the chrono went 1660, 1750, 1850, 1940, 1850. Accuracy at 100 yds not on paper. big paper. Leading is extreme with sheets coming out on the patches. Rifle is zeroed at 200yds is a "pre hawkeye" M77 Ruger and was sub MOA last time I shot it with Jacketed 180's...
So I am sure the problem lies in the .309 sizing. If I have Lathesmith open that Star die up to .3105 will I solve the problem or am I trying to push that boolit too fast and need to slow it down or paper patch it.
Lightly frustrated and tired of cleaning lead from the bore...
Bulltipper

[Doc Highwall]

I would try your bullets sized at least .310" and try again. I am shooting 30:1 alloy as fast as you are with great accuracy with bullets sized .310", .3105", and .311".

[NSP64]

.310 Might be better.
Did you use a copper cleaning solution to clean your barrel before switching to lead?
I think that is the problem.
To little Lube would show up as lead in the last part of the barrel.
Lube may be failing.
I have shot faster without leading.

Drop them from the mold into cold water, size and lube, then let them sit for 2 weeks.

[MtGun44]

Too small and iffy lube. Try .311 and NRA 50-50.

In my opinion, anyone experiencing problems
when using a home made lube should IMMEDIATELY suspect the lube.

Of course, as Brett says "Fit is king" and you are too small, based on my experience.

Bill

[runfiverun]

i'd be for cleaning the copper out of the barrel first.
then I would start measuring stuff.
then I would be seriously looking at the load, a 300 fps velocity swing is not going to produce groups of any kind.

[Bulltipper]

Patch was sticky in the first 8" of the bore, that is where all the lead was hanging up. I cleaned the bore really good last night and fired 5 this morning and it leaded up real bad again. Recommendations for a copper cleaning solution? I will be pulling that die out and sending it in for a bore out job I think... Thanks for the input fellas,
BT

[Kraschenbirn]

...Recommendations for a copper cleaning solution?...BT

Sweet's 7.62. Follow the directions on the bottle and, once patches come out clean, run a patch dampened with Hoppe's #9 (or, better yet, Ed's Red) through the bore and you're ready to rock 'n roll.

Bill

[rmatchell]

+1 on sizing .310

I have also read that the 311413 likes to go a lil slower from what I have seen. I am working on getting a single cavity in this design so I have been looking for all the load info I can find so no only talking from what I have found on this site.

[fouronesix]

300 fps spread is no good! Something's up with the load. A good load is going to be somewhere around 20-30 fps spread or less. Try one thing at a time- beginning with the load.

[popper]

I'd try 311 with LLA (yea, I know), drop back a bit on the load and see what happens. Too small and too soft.

[RickinTN]

I agree on too small, and possibly on too soft. What powder and charge are you using to get these velocities?

[44man]

No mention was made of the powder used. Sounds like the 4227's.

[Char-Gar]

Know thy bullet. 311413 is the Lyman version of the "Squibb" bullet designed by some guy named Squibb in Lima Ohio. It was a very popular design before and after WWII. Cramer, Hensley and Gibb, Belding and Mull and Lyman all made versions. I have molds in this design from each of the makers. I rather like it.

If is a very accurate design..IF...IF..you keep the speeds below 1,300 - 1,400 fps or thereabouts. Push it faster and all of the sizing, messing with lubes, etc, etc, won't help and you will get what you got, i.e. a pattern and not a group. The Squibb bullet wants very body to fly straight and it will unless to fly faster than the design will permit, then it will become unstable.

Knock 500 fps off your loads and your smile will return and you barrel will be clean. Recoil will be nil, groups with be small and beer cans will jump into the air. What more could a fellow want? If is not a hunting bullet unless your game is bunnies, mice or frogs. Work WITH this bullet and it will work FOR you.

[Bulltipper]

OK, The load was 17 grains Unique. (yes a little hot and I wanted to burn the cheap stuff) Now after reading Char-gar's post, I am going to slow them down to his recommended speed and try it without resizing my lubesizing die. Then we will address the sizing and lube after this test. I will report back with my results. (The reason I wanted this boolit in the first place was; #1 it looks really cool. #2 I want to shoot something besides the .22 without shooting up my expensive stuff. This still fits the bill beautifully!) Char-gar, what powder would you use to keep case volume up but velocity down? Thanks!
Bulltipper

[HangFireW8]

I'm not CharGar but I have had really good success with "the load" around 13 grains of Red Dot and this boolit in '06. 700x just as good.

[Bulltipper]

Ahhh, Thank you Master HangFireW8! I have lotsa 700x, can't wait to try it out!

[Doc Highwall]

Make sure you use a large enough case neck expander. For your .311" bullet I would use a .309"-.310" expander.

[Char-Gar]

Bulltipper... Lets talk a little theory here.

All things being equal (which they never are) how fast the powder gas hits the base of the bullets make a difference. Being a simple sort, I like to think of the bullet being "spanked" into the barrel with a fast powder vs. being shoved down the barrel with a slower powder.

There is a limit to how hard you can spank the bullet before deformation starts to occur. Below the deformation point you need to lessen the blow of the spank or change to a powder that will shove the bullet.

Unique is a good cast bullet powder, but quite quick. I should think it would be just fine with the Squibb bullets if pressures were kept low to give velocities in the 1.3 - 1.4 K fps range.

Powders like 2400, 4227 and 4759 do very well with most bullets (not the Squibb) up to about 1.8K fps. They will do fine if they are kept in the warm fuzzy range the Squibb bullet likes. After than point lets shove with medium burning powders.

I tend to use 2400 for 95% of my cast bullet loading because it works so very well and I can use it in magnum handgun loads as well. There are many other powders that work just fine.

Unique is the fastest powder I would use in a bottle neck rifle case and then would limit the velocities to 1.5K fps or lower.

I don't know squat about 700X, having never used it.

Powder volume isn't a big concern to me. If it were I would use 4759. This powder was developed for the military to use in it's 30 caliber "frangible" loads. This was lower velocity bullets 30-06 loads with a bullet that would break up on the skin of an aircraft and not break through. At least that was theory. The rounds were used in area gun practice. 4759 was design for the bulk necessary for reliable function of the round in full automatic weapons. For decades after WWII, it was THE CAST BULLET powder and is still one of the best.

I don't recall you every saying what the rifles was you fired these in. Might make some kind of different.

I don't think .309 is the kiss of death, but .310 or .311 will probably tighten the groups. The .001 to .002 difference isn't going to make the difference between patterns and groups, unless the bullet is smaller than the groove diameter.

Opening up a sizing die .001 to .002 is no big trick. Get some Clover 320 grit lapping compound, slather some on a few bullets and shove them through the die. a few times. Try a new clean bullet to measure your progress. When the bullet comes out the size you want, clean the die and that is that. This doesn't take all that long. When the bullets start to go easy, add more compound. The Clover 320 has lots of uses around the gun/reloading shop and goes a very long way. I bought a small tin in 1969 and still have about 1/4 of it left. Good stuff.

For leading, wrap 000 steel wool around a bronze brush and scrub. It will do the job in short order and not it will not damage the barrel.

[GP100man]

Here`s a page that may help ,

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx110/GP100man/102_0813.jpg (http://s746.photobucket.com/user/GP100man/media/102_0813.jpg.html)

[Larry Gibson]

Load was way too hot.

Might want to back off to "starting load" from a manual and work up instead of just jumping to a conclusion as to what "load" might work (where ever that "load" came from?) and is good to use......always back off and work up a load.......

"Lube is an old favorite that has been great in my 1911, beeswax, WL grease and a little bit of ATF. "; probably the real culprit for the "Leading is extreme with sheets coming out on the patches". Might be a "good" lube for the sedate 1911 loads but for velcoities in the "teens" a proven lube, even LLA, would have been a better choice. The .309 sizing is not the problem.

Yes I might be a little "hard" on bulltipper here but there is a lesson to be learned here......certain procedures in reloading need to be followed; always work up a load using reliable data with new componants which you've not used before........ and use proven cast bullet lubes for the velocity level.

Larry Gibson

[Bulltipper]

Larry, you are right, I jumped in the deep end and tried to push it too fast. I will pick up some 4759 next time I see some, for now, I am going to go out and load a few at the starting load and shoot 'em so I can see the difference in accuracy and bore leading. No excuses from me...

[Bulltipper]

Fired 5 rounds loaded at 9.5gr 700x (starting load from old Lyman manual) got 4 in 3" at 100yd and 1 flyer 5" from center of group. Leading is all but gone, a bit of black residue on the patch. So the lessons are; know thy boolit, start at the beginning, home lube may work fine at 800-900fps but rifle speeds present a different issue, run a slower powder rather than something I have a lot of laying around, and last but not least-- even if your new boolit looks super fast and sexy, don't try to push it too fast. I am now going to the store for ice cream and root beer. Have a great night guys and thanks for the input!

[HangFireW8]

I love a happy ending!

[jrayborn]

You guys are awesome, thanks for sharing your experience and talents with everyone. Congrats Bulltipper!

[RickinTN]

I'm wondering what cartridge we're talking about here. It's not been mentioned that I see unless my reading skills are suffering tremendously. I know what kind of rifle, and I know that it's 30 cal. Is it a .308, an '06, a 300 Magnum? I don't think it's been mentioned? I see plenty of advise on powder charges and such. How do you give powder charge advise when we don't even know what cartridge it is?
Someone put me on the straight and narrow please.

[Bulltipper]

Sorry, 30.06

[Bulltipper]

Tonight I am having root beer floats and reading lots of "stickys"...

[Char-Gar]

I am encouraged to find a chap who will ask for advice and actually take it. So often folks ask for advice and then want to argue with you when it is given. Three cheers for Bulltipper!!

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, you are right, I jumped in the deep end and tried to push it too fast. I will pick up some 4759 next time I see some, for now, I am going to go out and load a few at the starting load and shoot 'em so I can see the difference in accuracy and bore leading. No excuses from me...

Good man, damn few of us left......just kidding though good on no excuses. I've found that bullet to shoot well in the 1600 - 1800 fps range. Not an easy one to get to do well above that....too much of a long unsupported nose. Keep us appraised of your progress please.

Larry Gibson

[Bulltipper]

I read a bit last night and took a look at my Krag, which I had been shooting lead through exclusively, no leading... The similarities are lube and sizing to .309. The disparity is the Unique powder in the 30.06 vs the 4198 (27 gr if my memory serves) used in the Krag. ( I also worked the Krag load up the correct way Larry:) And my hot load in the 30.06. I am going to try the 4198 in the '.06 today just to see if the group tightens up more and how my bore looks afterward. Thanks for the kind words guys, I will let you know how this turns out.
Bulltipper

[Char-Gar]

The Krag rifle is a favorite of mine, having 4 of them. They do well with cast bullets, but have a few quirks that need to be taken into account. The rifle was designed for long heavy round nose bullets and have a long and large throat to accommodate these bullets under military conditions. This is a good news and bad news situation.

First the bad news about Krag barrels. The groove diameter is all over the place, running from .308 to as large as .312 with .3095 being common. Townsend Whelen write of finding Krag barrels as large as .316 in the grooves. I have never found one that large. I have rifles that run .312, .310, .3095 and .308 in the grooves. Springfield Arsenal was used to making big bore black powder rounds and they didn't worry to much about barrel specs. They counted on the big smack when the powder charge went off to expand the lead bullet to fit whatever the barrel groove was.

the 30-40 Krag was their first venture into smokeless power and "metal patched" bullets, and they had not gotten their heads around the difference. They were having accuracy problems and brought in Harry Pope to diagnose the problem and help them produce rifles that would compete in the Palma Match. Harry was a gasp at the all over the place barrel specs and helped them stop that nonsense. The latter Krags have much more uniform barrel specs.

Now the good news. The wide swing in barrel specs doesn't matter much, because of that fat throat. A .313 or .314 bullet will do very well in all of them. I load all of my Krag ammo with .314 bullets and It does well in all of my rifles. The Krag rifle is at it's best with cast bullets.

Because of the very long throat and the limitations of COAL that will feed through the magazine, it is difficult if not impossible to have the bullets touch the lands. I just load the round as long as possible and still have it feed through the magazine and bang away. I suppose I could load the bullet way out and single load it, but what's the fun in that?

Please bear in mind that the last Krag rifle was made in 1903, is of a weak single lug design and us quite hard/brittle due to the heat treatment. These things can let go. Fortunately when they do go into fail mode they don't turn into grenades like the early brittle 03 Springfields, for the Krag design doesn't capture loose gas like the Springfields. Still, if a fellow is going to shoot loads much over 1.7K fps or so, he should stay away from quick powders that deliver a sudden blow to the old brittle steel. For loads that approach mil spec, best to go with a medium or slow burning powder.

I think that about does it for me on the Krag rifle. They are fun rifles and very addictive. Have fun.

[Bulltipper]

My Krag has a .308 bore and likes the 311290 at 1400 to 1500fps I will have to try that 311413 boolit in that rifle... Thanks for the info!
Bulltipper

[geargnasher]

Unique will drill holes with the 311440 made of aged, air-cooled wheel weights IF you take the time to work the powder charge up very carefully, i.e. .2-grain increments (two-tenths, that is) until you close the groups. I'd recommend going up in size to the throat entrance diameter of your rifle, and start at about 12.5 grains. I mention this because there's no need to change from the powder you already have, it's an excellent one if applied correctly and requires no filler for optimum performance in the .30-'06.

Gear

[Bulltipper]

Thanks Gear!