Lyman, Ideal, molds, I am confused??

[James Wisner]

With all this talk about Kieth type Lyman molds I am confused. Hopefully someone more learned about Elmer and the bullets he designed can straighten this out.

Looking at the the numbers we see 429421. This was worked out for the 44 spl with heavy loads. Then there is 452423 and 454424 these are for the 45 long colt. Lastly there is the 385429 for the 38-44 that Elmer used. There is also a couple of hollow base designs in that number range also for the 38-44 and the 44 spl.

What is the time frame that these molds were designed. If I remember from his books they were made just prior to WW2. Correct me if I am wrong here.

What I am really confused about is the 358156 Ray Thompson design. This has two crimp grooves. One for the 38 spl, and the other for the 357. If you go by the mold number this thing is older than the 357 cartidge. Did it get redone to work in the 357 or what?? This bullet design had to be one of the first with a gas check.

One thing for sure is that, the Smith Wesson Model 27 that I bought last week has a cylinder to short to accept a 358429 bullet seated in the crimp groove in a 357 mag case.
So now do I break the news to the wife that I need another bullet mold just to fit this pistol. She already thinks I have too many molds. Well it is a two way street. I think she has too many shoes.
OH well, what is that old saying about women.

Jim Wisner
Custom Metalsmith

[fourarmed]

Jim, a lot depends on how sorely her patience has been tried lately, and how many shoes she bought yesterday. I load the 358429 in magnum cases and crimp over the front driving band. Shoots very well that way in my wife's 586 and in my M19.

[Maven]

Jim, You're right about the crimp grooves on #358429. If I use them for the .357mag., it will fit my Ruger Blackhawk, but not my Dan Wesson. However, if I seat it to 1.59" OAL and taper crimp, it works very well in both.

[floodgate]

JIm:

It IS confusing. Of Keith's designs, #429421 and its hollow-base variant #429422 for the .44 Special, #452423 for the .45 APC and Auto-Rim, and #454424 for the .45 Colt first appear in Ideal Handbook No. 29, in 1929. They were followed in HB 30 (1931) by SWC #358429 and the hollow-base #358431; and the #358439 hollow-point was aded in HB 32 (1936), though the latter is more commonly seen listed as #358429-HP. Since the basic Keith SWC's were heavier than the "standard" loadings, the hollow-based versions were designed to match the normal weights for those calibers, not for obturation.

When the Ray Thompson gas-check designs came in, #358156 and 429215 in 1953 (HB 39) and #429244 in 1957 (HB 41) Lyman for some reason departed from their (more-or-less) chronological assignment of cherry numbers, to use the last three digits to indicate grains weight, like Lee and others. Cherry No's. -156 and -244 were "borrowed" from long-obsolete designs, but .429215 was taken from the current .44 Spl. "Anderton" 200-gr. RN gallery design, which was re-numbered #429478. The Thompson #452490 for the .45, though, was given a regular (almost) sequential cherry number when it was introduced in 1955 (HB 40).

It took a lot of sorting through my collection of handbooks and catalogs to figure this all out; but I think that tells the whole story on the numbering.

floodgate

[James Wisner]

Thanks Floodgate.

That is what I thought happened also. but it did not make sense to me at least. Dad remembered the Thompson designs coming out in the 50's. And my books showed them in that time frame.

And I knew that the Kieth's came out before WW2.

I do not have many of the old books that go that far back.

Thanks again, at least I know I have not lost that part of my mind. (yet)

Jim Wisner
Custom Metalsmith

[floodgate]

Guys: Note corrections to my 5:32 pm post on the Keith bullet numbering scheme. Sorry, 'bout that - I was in too much of a hurry and didn't proofread it right. Floodgate

[44man]

James, your going about it all wrong! Tell the little woman that the boolits don't fit the gun and you need another gun.
Then when it settles down, you can say "oh, well, I can just get a different mold."
If you deep seat and taper crimp, you might just as well use 38 spec brass. Seating deeper increases pressure so you will have to reduce the loads if you are loading near max. For lighter loads it works fine.

[beagle]

The 358429 can also be loaded in .38 Special cases to match the old .38/44 velocities and pressures if you're shooting them in a .357 Mag like you are.

Most of my shooting in the Ruger Blackhawk is with these .38/44 loads using the 358429 in .38 cses and they're pretty good field loads and plinking loads

No trouble at all to exceed 1,000 FPS with them. I wouldn't want to shoot too many in a K frame or an old M & P though./beagle

.
James, your going about it all wrong! Tell the little woman that the boolits don't fit the gun and you need another gun.
Then when it settles down, you can say "oh, well, I can just get a different mold."
If you deep seat and taper crimp, you might just as well use 38 spec brass. Seating deeper increases pressure so you will have to reduce the loads if you are loading near max. For lighter loads it works fine.

[James Wisner]

I have to keep the 357 and 38 spl ammo totally apart.

Have three 357's, the M27, a Blackhawk and a Python.
Also have a Colt Det spl, Diamond back, S&W M36 in 38 spl.

So loading the 38 up to the old 38-44 loads is some thing I don't want to do an by mistake put on in the 5 shot smith.

One thing I came up with years ago is to load each in a different shape bullet to tell them apart at a glance. Am working on this now for the 38, 357.

In the 44's I use the following.

44 spl squib, roundball, but am working on the old button collar bullet also.

44 spl full house, Lyman #429360 swc

44 Mag full house, Lyman 429421 swc

44 Mag full house, RCBS 300 swc in NICKEL cases

Jim Wisner
Custom Metalsmith

[wileecoyote37]

At a garage sale I got 2 molds. I identified 1 -Lyman 429421 a 44 cal Kieth style. The other mold I need help identifying. It's a 2 cavity Ideal mold with the 357 446 on 1 side. Anyone know what I have?

Thanks

[Springfield]

162 grain SWC for 38/357

[Wally]

[

One thing for sure is that, the Smith Wesson Model 27 that I bought last week has a cylinder to short to accept a 358429 bullet seated in the crimp groove in a 357 mag case.
So now do I break the news to the wife that I need another bullet mold just to fit this pistol. She already thinks I have too many molds. Well it is a two way street. I think she has too many shoes.
OH well, what is that old saying about women.

Jim Wisner
Custom Metalsmith[/QUOTE]

I have a Model 27 and like using teh 358429 bullet in it--seated to the crimping groove it is 0.1" too long--so I trimmed the brass just enough so they fit..I do keep thes cases seperate from regular length .357 Mag brass. I inspect all fired .357 Mag brass and any that have short nect splits I trim by 0.1" so that I can use them with the 359429 bullet. Those that are too far gone are trimmed to .38 Spl length.