Cannot get 216gr 44 cal HBWC to shoot groups

[Float Pilot]

For years I always thought it would be neat to have a 44 caliber hollow based wad-cutters. It seemed to work out ok in 38 specials.
Well now I have them, (around 216 grains)
BUT, I can get them to shoot decent groups no matter what.... They are slightly better in a 6.5 inch M-24 with light loads... But they still throw would flyers with regularity...

I did try loading them backwards as well and it really does not work... They fragment after 2 inches in pork...

So far just bad groups and high pressure signs unless I use a super light load like 4.0 grains of TiteGroup...

Has anyone managed to get HBWCs to shoot tight groups?
I am starting to think that the skirt gets off-balanced since it is so thin...

[runfiverun]

the skirts just get blown off if you try to push them.
if the alloy is hard then the skirt breaks and causes base unevenness.
the skirt is there to take up inconsistencies in the gun maintaining a seal.

[Float Pilot]

Must be.... It is a pain in the butt to extrapolate a load for this bullet because it jacks up the pressures so much. My hands were getting a little numb today since the wind was cutting through my gloves.


Bullet: 216 grain Hollow Base Wadcutter sized to .430
Brass: Winchester 4th reload
Primer: Winchester Large Pistol
COL: 1.199 inch, Roll Crimp,
Temp 10 degrees F, 15-18 knot wind, 15 yards from sand bags.

Guns: Taurus M-445 UL 2.1 inch bbl. and S&W M-29 6.5 inch bbl.


6.0 grains UNIQUE = 925 fps (Taurus) & 995 fps (S&W) 1.0 inch group both guns.

6.3 grains UNIQUE = 955 fps (Taurus) 1,080 fps (S&W) 1.5 inch group both guns.

5.4 grains RED DOT = 926 fps (Taurus) 1,000 fps (S&W) (1.5 in grp Taurus) (0.50 in grp S&W) Showed high pressure in Taurus snubbie even though the velocity was not any higher than other loads.

6.2 grains HP-38 = 944 fps (Taurus) 1,008 fps (S&W). (1.5in grp Taurus) (2.0 in grp S&W)

4.0 grains TiteGroup = vel unknown, chrono failure: Taurus 2.5 inch group, S&W= 1.5 inch with flyers.

[Mk42gunner]

I'm no expert when it comes to loading HBWC's, but I think you are pushing them too hard. I base this on the recommended loads in Hornady's 5th Ed. for the .32 S&W Long and .38 Special, both with HBWC. Most of the loads they list top out at 750 fps.

What alloy are you using?

Robert

[captaint]

If you're castin them very hard, I would try softening them up some. And maybe cool off the loads some too. No need in running them too hot, they're just wadcutters. Mike

[knifemaker]

I have to agree. Your hollow base skirt appears to be very thin at the base and I think you are loading too hot and blowing the skirt out to where it fragments. I have shot many thousands of 38 HB wadcutters and our normal load was 2.7gr. of bullseye for 725-750 fps.

[44man]

The wrong boolit for a .44. Just why did you choose it?

[Larry Gibson]

Definately pushing them too hard.....probably casting them too hard.......and probably using too hard a lube........(from the picture)

Cast them soft (30 or 40 -1 alloy), lube with a soft lube (an alox lube or even straight LLA), load over a faster powder and crimp just enough to removed the case mouth flare. Suggest Bullseye; start at 3.5 gr and work up in .3 gr increments until accuracy goes south. Best accuracy with that bullet will be in there.

Larry Gibson

[mdi]

For the ones already cast; you can anneal the shirts. As with all cast bullets I would slug the barrel and measure the cylinder throats, to make sure bullets aren't too small. Next batch use softer alloy...

BTW; where did you get the mold?

[45-70 Chevroner]

Are you using 44 mag cases or 44 special cases? The pictures look like 44 special, if so I think the jump is a little too far for a WC style boolit. The boolit is tilting a little before it hits the throat in the cylinder. I have used HBWC's in my Highway Patrol, and loading them in 38 cases but I load them out a little and they work great. Feet per second though is never over 700.

[Float Pilot]

.430 sized 216 grain Hollow base wadcutter.
4.0 grains Trail boss
ww brass / WLP primer
1.200 col roll crimp
vel = 700 fps from 2.1 inch Taurus
Vel= 735 fps from 6.5 inch S&W M-29 ( 1.0 inch group at 15 yards.) CLEAN

[beagle]

I've messed a lot with hollow based bullets. A bunch of 358395 Lymans, a lot of 358431 Lymans and a bunch of 429422 Lymans in the .44 Mag and Special. From my experiences, you have to keep them at moderate velocities.

As you have pointed out, that skirt looks pretty thin compared to the Lyman designs.

Lower the velocities and try. As a last result, modify the HB plug. The 429422 has a plug with the base diameter of .225" and this gives a pretty thick skirt.

In casting, you'll find many wrinkles in the HB cavities. Recycle those as the skirts will blow.

HB bullets give good accuracy but not at magnum velocities from my experiences./beagle

[Dale53]

Float Pilot;
You are definitely trying to drive those H.B. bullets too hard. I have personally witnessed three barrels on handguns ruined by trying to drive the H.B. wadcutters too hard (the skirts separated and stayed in the barrel). Since the front of the bullet printed on the target the shooters thought everything was fine. They ended up with bulged barrels when the next round encountered the bore obstruction:mad:.

I would NOT exceed 4.0 grs of Red Dot or equivalent. Using Titegroup, I would start at 3.5 and not exceed 4.0 grs in .44 Special cases. As others have pointed out, you may benefit from using .44 magnum brass in the M-29.

Another thing, you may need a larger expanding stem for your flaring die. Using H.B. wadcutters I prefer the expander to be bullet size. After expanding the brass case will normally be about .001" less than the expander. That is plenty of case neck tension for a soft bullet fired ahead of a fast powder.

Don't lose heart - continue your testing. Success may be just around the corner...

Dale53

[Forrest r]

Ya, been shooting them for a year now. They will hold the 10-ring on an NRA slow fire target @ 25yds or all toughing @ 50ft cutting the center out of an NRA 50ft slow fire target.

You need to start thinking outside the box!!!

When I did the testing when I 1st got my mold I:
Cast soft bullets
Cast water dropped bullets
Then I used/tested the air cooled & water dropped bullets by:
Sizing to .429/.430/.431
Lubing 1 lube groove/lubing both lube groove/tumble lubing with 45/45/10
Seating the bullet flush/in the 1st lube groove/in the 2nd lube groove

The last thing I did was to get a Lyman m-die to use to bell the cases.

So after all the testing was done I found that lubing both lube grooves was too much & caused fliers. Seating the bullets flush caused problems distorting the skirts every now & then due to my poor reloading practices (bullet angled at the start of the seating process damaging the skirt).

I either lube the bullet only in the bottom lube groove or tumble lube them with 45/45/10. It’s easier to tumble lube them so that’s what I do.
I water drop the bullets when casting, it’s also easier & causes less damage to the bullets by being hard when the fall onto the ones already cast. Also pay close attention to the skirt area of the cast bullets, if the bullets are dumped out of the mold too quickly they will get small hair line cracks in the skirts that cause fliers. The harder skirts are also more forgiving on my less than stellar reloading practices.

I seat the bullets in the 2nd lube groove & use standard load data for the 45acp. For the 45acp 5gr seems to be the magic # for a lot of powders, the 44spl is no different. I quit testing after trying 3 powders because I have 12+# of them & 2 of them are extremely common powders.

At the end of the day I:
Cast the bullets hard (easier & more forgiving)
Size them to .431
Tumble lube (easier & these bullets like all wc’s are easily over lubed)
Seat the bullet in the 2nd lube groove (easier on the skirt)
Use 4.5gr of Bullseye, 5.0gr of ww452 (pre wst) or 5.0gr of hp-38/ww231.

I also have tested & do the thing with the Mihec HBWC for the 38spl. Water drop them, size them to .3585, tumble lube them & seat them in the 2nd lube groove.

As you can see in the picture, the test gun (624) bullets lubed in both grooves, 1 groove & tumble lubes along with the different seating depths.

67533


The 44spl hbwc’s loaded & ready for target work.

67532

Bullets cast with soft lead & air dropped/cooled loaded backwards to make a hp.

67534

[Float Pilot]

Yeap mine are pretty hard.

I loaded these backwards and fired them into a hog quarter at 850 fps. they only penetrated a max of 4 inches or so and the walls of the cavity came off at two inches.
Although the THAWPP was pretty remarkable.

[olskool]

an old post, but I just got a charter arms "BOOMER" I also bought one of these molds from NOE I plan on running them around 700 fps loaded backwards with soft lead and powder coated. it should make a good little carry load in the boomer. WE WILL SEE,,,,,,,,

[Bookworm]

Unlike some here, I don't mind old threads being resurrected. Many times, I haven't seen them before.

Keep us posted on your progress with the HBWC.

We love pics....

[olskool]

well I cast some today. the mold is a little tricky but I figured it out. the culled boolits came out nice. instead of running them through my star I used a .432 lee tumble lube die. I hand lubed 5 of them with beeswax and loaded them with 5gr. of 231 I just went out to my range and shot them in my flat top ruger bisley. they shot fine no pressure. I will powder coat some tomorrow and load them up and test for accuracy in the ruger. if all is well I will try them in the CA boomer. they should be a good carry load, I will test them for penetration and see how it goes,,,,,,

[sw282]

A set of pin gages will tell you the size of the throats... Then size to that dimension or .001'' bigger... '...