how to keep my 1911 running (N.M.)

[elginrunner]

Ok first of all I'm new this casting thing. So please just bear with my noob ramblings.

Gun: colt combat elite, it has NM 45 auto on bbl. I'm not new to 1911's but new to colt, I'm assuming it means national match.

cartridges: I've use one with great success, a lee 452-200-RF, using 4 to 9 ratio of olive oil/beeswax lube. No leading at all, and laser like accuracy. However I damaged this mold being a ham handed noob. I don't know when I caused the damage, but dinged the edge of one cavity and it now flashes a significant tit where the halves meet.

So I thought I'd step up and bought a RCBS 45-200-SWC using same lube. It has a lot larger lube groove.

Both were shot with 4.5 grains of green dot. After shooting all my lee bullets (about 300) I got in to my RCBS, and after just a few magazines worth I started having problems with the frame achieving a return to battery. Most of the time with a gentle push with the thumb it would fall, other times not. I did not notice any leading but what appeared to be a lube ring just past the chamber.

I brought the gun home and gave it a good cleaning, it seems to cycle the rcbs just fine now.

note: lee cast .452, and rcbs at .453
Any thoughts??

[nhrifle]

Maybe you need a harder lube? A little more wax to stiffen it up?

[RobS]

Are you sure there isn't a ring of lead at the end of the chamber or bits of lead from the front edge of the SWC scraping off at the end of the chamber? Small pieces of lead can give the following rounds issues with cycling or going all the way to battery. Often times a nose profile/ogive that is smooth (no step to the front drive band such as the Lee 200 grain boolit) won't give a person issues with a tight throat however a boolit that has a step front drive band (the SWC design or similar) can scrape off due to the short throat as it makes its way into the barrel.

It could be the lube as I've seen this too but it's often times because of too hard of a crimp which results in blow back. Crimp as little as possible to enable the round to still drop into chamber. I take out the barrel to see what crimp I need and typically crimp as little as possible.

[elginrunner]

So a rounded profile is less problematic that a semi wad cutter

[RobS]

If you have a really short/tight throat it can be.

[RobS]

I would also size the RCBS SWC to .452 to keep diameters the same.

[jdgabbard]

That lube sounds like a Black Powder lube to me... Little soft for the .45 in my opinion. But if it works.....

[DrCaveman]

Man you are speaking my language. Despite my several thousand rounds cast, loaded, and shot through my 1911, it it obvious there is still a lot i dont know about the subtleties of perfecting it.

What i can offer, based on my limited experience, is that tiny variations in seating depth/OAL make a big difference with 200 gr SWC compared to round nose designs. Also the final outer diameter of your cartridge mouth matters, and should usually be about .471-472". Crimping can often achieve this final diameter, allowing the cartridge to fall fully into battery.

Do the old 'plunk test'. It has rarely failed me, except when i took my 200 swc boolits in too far and they began to 3-point jam. Part of the learning process but maybe you have already seen that stuff.

Oh, and something i learned the hard way is just because it cycles at home doesnt mean it cycles at the range. Id recommend some breathing room.

[elginrunner]

I've got my bbl out and am using it as a case gauge. It seems that the SWC may have been a little long. I had the OAL at 1.25" which is in range by the book. However when I dropped em' in the bbl, the head was just above my (dont have terminology for it) little lip on top side of the bbl. So I put them back into the seater die and shorted to 1.235. It's now flush. Maybe this will help.

[DrCaveman]

Yeah, my OAL was always shorter than the book said with the 200 swc i was using.

I tried to make it work at 1.255" or 1.245", but no dice, no reliable battery. I have settled on about 1.235-1.240" using my lee 200 swc standard groove, about the same as where you're at.

I just tonight clicked purchase on a 200 swc mold of a little different profile. H&G 68 clone they call it, and ill see how reliably it feeds. Ive learned there have been a lot of perversions of that original design which can sometimes thwart the feeding when loaded at 'standard' OAL.

Hopefully others can chime in about the rcbs attempt at duplicating this design, and comment on its peculiarities.

But, ill bet if your boolits now pass the plunk test they will shoot pretty good. Fine tuning from there

[runfiverun]

it will.
sometimes the round tries to headspace on the little lip on the boolit instead of on the case mouth.
i have to seat flush and bump my case mouths in a roll crimp die for one of my 1911's and don't for the other. [but do anyway]

[nwellons]

I have had to significantly increase seating with my Lee 452-228-1R. I had return to battery problems (and failure to pass the plunk test) until I reduced the OAL to 1.210. It works fine with me because I shoot at the low pressure starting load end of the spectrum.

[randyrat]

I'm not sure if your sizing the Lee and RCBS different or are they dropping at size mentioned?
I've seen 911s needing .451 to pass the "hood test" I would size the RCBS at .452 and never look back. Only if you need to size .451...
The lube your using works - Accurate and no leading using the Lee, why change right. I think you answered your question, size to .452..
I would just leave my barrel near me loading 45s so i could do a QA hood test now and then to make sure they will chamber.

[elginrunner]

I didn't size either bullet, just as they fell. Tonight I ran them into the seating die again to reduce the OAL. They pass the plunk test... I've gotta work tonight so Ill be sleeping the day away and not be able to test for a few days.

[archmaker]

I have had the same problem with my auto loaders (loaded a LOT of revolver, just got started on the auto side).

Found that spending time with the reloader and the gun at hand was what I had to do to get a reliable round. First it was that I was not crimping it enough, so I started with little crimp and kept tightening the die until it would drop in with no problem. Then gave it 1/4 more twist in and loaded the next ten checking to make sure it would drop in with no problem. Then I would work the round through the gun, full magazine to empty. All rounds had to chamber with the use of the slide stop, and all rounds had to chamber with racking the slide forcefully. Any problems . . . back to the press to work on seating depth, and check it would drop into the chamber.

Sounds like a lot of work to get it right, but now I know what works in my gun. And shooting has become a lot of fun (unlike the load that was not quite strong enough and seemed like I had to push the slide close 50% of the time, live and learn :) )

[zomby woof]

As others have said, make sure there is no lube/lead build up in the chamber. I had this same problem with having to push the slide into battery on a Swenson barrel for my 1911. It turns out lube was building up on the slide where the case slides up to lock. there was a nice ring just below the case, the case would drag a bit. This barrel must have a bigger chamber and lube is blowing back, or my light loads are not sealing so well.

[gray wolf]

If your loaded rounds were not seated to at least even with the barrel hood, then the front band of the SWC was hitting the lead in the barrel. Just having to tap the back of the slide is telling you that.
The rounds chambered fine, they just weren't seated all the way, they were hung up on the front band. This also contributes to a lube build up and possibly a lead build up and that enhances the problem even more. You probly need to size those bullets at least .4515 .452
OAL with the back of the case even with the barrel hood and make sure the beginning of the barrel lead is not sharp and abrupt.

[MtGun44]

Taper crimp and chamber dropping to check LOA and taper crimp level.
I also am a bit skeptical of the lube, altho .45 ACP is pretty forgiving, I would
try NRA 50-50 lube if you have any issues. Give .452 a try, but let Mr.
Target give you the correct answer.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

What kind of barrel bushing do you have on that Colt National Match? The Series 70 NM barrel used a collet bushing and the last little bit of return to battery requires the barrel to come in firm contact with the bushing fingers and that causes resistance. It doesn't take much gunk in the gun or issue with the loads to break that over to the point a pistol will do as you have described.

Real Match barrels, Colt National Match included, have chambers tighter that those used for service pistols. This can enhance accuracy, but there is less room for dirt and stuff to accumulate, and thusly require more frequent cleaning. When folks build service pistols around match barrels, they run a standard reamer into the chamber and open it up to service specs.

Without having your pistol and loads in my hands, it is impossible to say for certain, but I doubt your issues are caused by the change in bullets or cast diameters. I suspect your pistol just got dirty enough to start acting up about the time you switched loads. Murphy's law even works with 1911s.

[Old Caster]

When seating a semi wadcutter in a 1911 the OAL isn't important. It is depends where the front edge is squared off. There are long nose wadcutters and stubby nose wadcutters but what matters is that the front of the brass is about 1/64 th behind the front edge of the fat part of the bullet. Brass length varies and you have to check to see that the longest ones are that length and the shortest ones will have more lead showing. You just don't want a case sticking out in front of the lead because it might catch when the bullet is being fed into the chamber but you want it back as far as possible.

It depends on what kind of match barrel you have but almost all are .451 but a .452 bullet will still shoot accurately as long as it isn't too hard.

I agree that you should leave the taper crimp as large as you can get away with but my Les Baer will catch the brass if I don't go as small as .069.

I believe it is the series 80 pistols that have the collet bushing and the 70 series which I think is much better has the standard bushing that has to be hand fitted. The series 80 also has a different trigger set up which cannot be made to break as cleanly as the 70. -- Bill --

[elginrunner]

Its a current production combat elite (2 tone with rosewood grips). It has what looks like standard bushing. Looks like I need to starting taking a cleaning kit to the range for extended sessions.

[mac45]

My first 1911 was a Series 70 Government model. It had the collet bushing.
Replaced years ago when it started to failing to return to battery.

[Char-Gar]

I am of the school that cleans and lubricates firearms as a religious precept. I always clean and lubricate my firearms between shooting sessions and have never fired more than 100 rounds per session, so malfunction due to a dirty firearm has never occurred for me in a lifetime of shooting. "Take care of your weapon, and it will take care of you."

It would appear that fewer and fewer folks belong to this religion these days.

For me, at least, there is a point when shooting is not productive. I am talking about the number of rounds per session. Fatigue, concentration or whatever causes my accuracy to start to fall off. That is when I quit, as beyond that point I don't enjoy it. It is not fun to perform below my peak.

[prs]

I am another new bee RE the 1911 and reloading to please it. I've got the hardball Lyman 228gr clone working like a charm, but still not quite in tune with my 200gr Lyman SWC or Lee SWC. If I follow Old Caster's sage advice with the SWC boolits, the crimp pinches and pooches the very end of the squared portion, but if I seat the drive band flush, it occasionally catches just like he says. Seems to fit my two 1911's best if I use just the least amount of taper crimp with just the least amount of drive band exposed. That leaves me with pretty tight tolerances to hold on a progressive press. My black powder type lube gunks-up the action pretty bad after about 50 rounds, but NRA lube does fine. I get modest leading with tumble lubes. Experiment'n is at least half the fun.

prs

[10-x]

FWIW, I also use the RCBS ~200 grn semi wadcutter over 6.5 grns of Unique sized to O.452" and Lyman Orange lube, taper crimped, seated to OAL of 1.245". My Colts have been throated very little to assure they digest these, results are excellent. Call me anal but I check every round before and after loading and have a .45 Colt case I cut teeth in with jewelers file that I slip over the boolit and cut any exposed lead or excess lube away from the crimp area. Maybe 3-4 of every 15-20 rounds get loaded in a magazine and cycled through the Colt(s)to check function. Do not like failures to feed.

[MtGun44]

Well the 1911 is a cantankerous old beast and has to be maintained by regular cleaning or
it will fail. When I was shooting about 10,000 rounds or more per year in two Gold Cups in
the middle 80s I was VERY strict about cleaning those guns. I NEVER ran beyond 5,000
rounds between cleaning. I'm just fussy that way. A drop or two of Break Free every time
I put it into the holster to start IPSC match or practice, and then be SURE to clean it
every 6 months or so, usually the week before the National Championships. Can't
shoot the Nats with a dirty gun! ;-)

Dead serious.

H&G 68 200 SWC commercial .452 clone, seat to 1.250-1.260 over 4.8 gr Bullseye or 5.9gr of
W231 and taper crimp so it will drop freely to flush with the hood. TWO separate things to
set. LOA by looking at the shoulder of the boolit for signs of hitting the rifling. Seat deeper
until it is not hitting or the case is flush with the hood. THEN set TC by free dropping the
rounds. More TC until they drop freely. For my guns prior to my first Dan Wesson 1911,
this was with about 0.040-.050" or shoulder out of the case. The DW chamber is really tight and
this forces me to 1.250 LOA and only about 0.025-.030" shoulder fwd of the case mouth.

These will feed like a hot knife through butter in any well throated (ALL are nowdays) 1911.

Series 70 had the collet bushing.

Bill

[243winxb]

I didn't size either bullet, just as they fell. The current .453" diameter bullet your using is to large. Size them.

[plainsman456]

Seating depth and a taper crimp.
As for lube i use 2500+ for rifles and pistol,no problems.

[BD]

A SWC at .453 is going to loose some lead to any new, modern throat every time. I'd size to .452, or even .451 (what I use in my Kimbers). You simply can't shove a .453 cylinder with a square leading edge through a .4505 tube, with a square leading edge without shaving some lead. Personally, I'm a believer in a little bit of throat, and a little smaller boolit, so that the SWC can align with the bore. I do clean my high round count 1911s a little more often than MtGun. I wipe'em off when they start to make my shirt dirty, and clean them every 1,000 rounds or so, mainly to sluice the lube gunk out. More of an esthetic thing than anything else.
BD
BD

[243winxb]

A SWC at .453 is going to loose some lead to any new, modern throat every time. Sure will. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/Fat45ACP.jpg

[fredj338]

If it's a match bbl, your 0.453" bullets may be part of the problem. Throw in some carbon gunk, they are going to be tight. My match Barsto can even get fussy on 0.452" if loaded long.

[David2011]

Elginrunner,

The published OAL for ball ammunition is much longer than the magazine will tolerate for semiwadcutters. Ball bullets fit very closely to the inside shape of the magazine. Your 1.250" OAL sounds OK but I think the others are right in telling you to size the boolits down. Carbon fouling can also be an issue that keeps the round from going into battery. The lube you're using sounds pretty soft and I would assume gets the ramp area pretty dirty so a harder lube might help. Light loads will contribute to carbon buildup in the chamber but your 4.5 grains of Green Dot isn't an especially light load.

Keep us posted on your results.

David

[Jim..47]

I had somewhat the same problem with my 1911 when I first started casting bullets for it. I had a .230 Gn round nose and a 200 SWC, both Lyman molds. All I had to do was shorten the OAL by about .020 and end of problem.

[warf73]

I would size the rcbs .452" and make sure to do the plunk test, as for your lube http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?26524-Just-the-facts-Lube-recipes look at post #4. Thats the lube in my start right now and works in 357mag, 40S&W, 44mag and 480ruger (I add less oil by 2oz for summer) and have used it in my Mosin 7.62X54R running under 1200fps with no leading.