Tried tuning two Lee moulds

[Blackwater]

Got a new muzzleloader - a CVA Bobcat. Just couldn't resist the price tag of $55! Got a Lee combo mould for a 320 gr. REAL bullet and a .490" round ball. The 2nd mould is a traditional minnie at 360 gr. I prepped the mold Sat and cast yesterday. The combo mould worked wonderfully. The RB cavity still may have a slight burr, but I'll fix that. The REAL bullets fell out like water flowing!!! THANKS folks, and particularly MTWeatherman and the others with the articles on tuning Lees in the archives!

However, with the minnie mould, that darn sprue plate screw just won't budge. Does anyone have a recommendation what to do now? The mould's as stiff as can be, and a chore to cast with, so I REALLY need to fix it. Any help here would be appreciated.

I like that blunt minnie bullet. Looks like it'd be a real winner in impact effect. The REAL bullet looks like it's going to be a contender too, and it's nice to have a choice to test and work with.

BTW, with hunting season coming on, if any of you are curious about what kind of gun one can get for $55, here's mine's story. When I got it, the hammer was binding and wouldn't drop. That didn't put me off, since for the price, I figured I could make it work. Well, Friday I took 'er down to the essential parts, degreased and coated with Breakfree, let dry and then gave it a coat of Emmert's, my BPCR lube which I've found to be a darn good protectorant, too. Then I went to work on the lock. The hammer is VERY tight on the square lug that holds it, and had to be gently and carefully pried off. A little ministering with care and discretion, and that was fixed. Then took the lock's innards apart. Folks, with THAT rifle you do NOT get any parts that aren't absolutely NECESSARY! I guess that's the only way they can sell it for this price. That has the happy effect of making "fixing" it pretty simple and straightforward. All I did was polish the blued inside of the lock plate, and the bearing surfaces of the parts that rotate against it, then lightly polish and deburr the sear. Darned if it doesnt' have a VERY nice trigger now!!!

There's no underlug, so it's even lighter than it might otherwise be. I'm not getting any stronger or tougher, so that ain't bad. It's got holes precast into the stock for conventional swivel studs, so you can use a sling. Nifty!

Haven't shot it yet, so can't say if it's made from rejected factory barrels, which is what I feared & suspected. It has a 26" barrel, so maybe they cut the flaws out??? A buddy has an identical rifle under the Traditions label, and his shoots like a house afire. I'm hoping. We'll see. It felt darn smooth when I put a lubed patch down the bore, but only time will tell, naturally.

The only criticism I can really think of on the gun (how much can you expect for $55???), is that the stock's comb is too high or the iron sights (fixed of course) are too low. I have a T/C Contender rear sight, and will put that on as soon as I can find it. Will have to drill and tap to do this. The front sight is a 1/16" brass flat, so I can cut a new one of greater height to get my cheek a bit more comfortable when sighting it.

All in all, I was really surprised. This ain't a bad rifle, and with us bullet casters being very "thrifty" at heart, I figured some of you may be interested in this.

Thanks for any help on that darn obstinate sprue plate screw - AND for the tips on making Lee moulds work better. I really like Lee moulds, but the last several I've gotten were a bit persnickety to use. This is gonna' help ... a LOT!

[waksupi]

"The hammer is VERY tight on the square lug that holds it, and had to be gently and carefully pried off. A little ministering with care and discretion, and that was fixed."

I do hope you didn't "fix" that too much. They should be nearly a press fit, to avoid wear.

[drinks]

BW;
I lucked out on mine, $45 on closeout, have the 250 and 320 REALs, both shoot to 2" at 50yds, about the best I can do with open sights.
Could not even see the front sight, so I silver soldered a 2mm silver bead on it, works much better for me.
Do not have my notebook, but seem to remember 1600-1700 fps with 75 gr 777.
Don

[floodgate]

Blackwater:

I LIKED your writeup on living with the REAL powder; hadn't tried the Murphy's soap cleanup, but I will - sounds great.

"The hammer is VERY tight on the square lug that holds it, and had to be gently and carefully pried off."

I'm sure you know this, but better than 'prying' the hammer off the square is to strip everything else off the plate, remove that hammer screw, find a straight punch that just clears the tumbler threads, cup the lockplate, tumbler down and hammer up, in your left hand, set the punch into the hammer screw hole and hold it straight with your left-hand fingertips, and tap the punch until the tumbler square is driven out of its seat in the hammer and lands in your palm. Takes 6-1/2 times as long to describe as to do, and no risk.

floodgate

[Blackwater]

Thanks for the replys, guys, and good to know the little Bobcat has some fans here too. Any man who can't appreciate a bargain is .... well, he sure doesn't come from a long line of Scots-Irishmen! ;-)

That hammer was STUCK, and GOOD, too. I had just enough room to do some careful and slow prying, and wasn't sure what the material was, so didn't want to risk a hammer, even gently, lest something shatter. The hammer and sideplate appeared to offer the less risky option at the time. Still fits tight, but I hope I don't have to mess with it. That trigger's so good now, and so consistent, that I ain't changin' NOTHIN' unless it's REQUIRED!

Nice to have something work out so well, ain't it? BTW, I'll be shooting Goex 2f, plus I've got a can of 3f for my C&B revolver, and a can of old Elephant 2F to play with. If I can get all the moulds perkin' right, this little rifle's going to be a keeper, I think.

Now, if anyone can advise me on the best way to get that @#$%^&* sprue plate screw out of the minnie mould, I'll be one HAPPY camper! It will NOT budge. Will heating the mould help? It's barely usable as is. Maybe it's just karma from the good ML find????

[Frank46]

Not real sure, but I think that the sprue plate screw is a self tapping screw as I had occasion to take the sprue plate off and lap it. The plate was not flat by any stretch of the imagination. Was a real bear to get off, they seem to use real el cheapo screws.
The phillips insert wanted to cam up out of the recess. So sandwiched it between two pieces of 2x4 and put in a vise where I could really lean on it. Finally got it out. Lotta pieces of aluminum came out with the screw. I suspect that you may have to do the same, Frank

[shooter575]

Blackwater,If that is a Lee minne mould like Frank46 said it is a self tapping screw on the newer ones.A 8-32 [or 10-32 ] on the older ones.They would strip on me also.I would just drill and tap for the next size biger.If the screw is broke off or the hole is too big to retap move it to the other block.It makes it sorta a left hand mould but it works.Be sure to true up the top of the blocks and bottom of sprue plate as in the "Lee Lamenting" sticky
A minne with B/P is a great thing to use!

[drinks]

A suggestion on the screw problem, 1/4" od rivet screw inserts, intended to be set in soft materials with a tool similar to a pop rivet tool, drill out the block to 1/4", insert the insert with red locktite, let it cure and then replace the screw with a touch of the Nickel base Neversieze,NOT the Copper, copper does bad things to Aluminum.
Should do fine.
Don

[MTWeatherman]

Blackwater:
Glad you found the Lee mould tuning information useful.

Suggest you try bringing your mould up to casting temperature and using a vise lightly clamp the mould just below where the handles attach to the blocks. This provides good support for the mould and allows firm downward pressure on the screw. In my experience, heat makes the job easier. I've never had a problem removing the screw this way, although as you mention, some are really in tight. Use a relatively large Phillips to match the head and enough downward pressure to avoid stripping the head.

The screw is indeed the self tapping screw on the newer Lee moulds. As tight as that screw is now...if you loosen it more than a slight amount you'll likely have to tap in a set screw to keep it from loosening again each time you use the mould.

[Blackwater]

Thanks for all the replies. Will see what I can do with the thing ASAP. I used the largest Phillips head I had, and it fit very well. The darn screw just would't budge, and the head was wanting to booger up on me. Didn't try the heat and vice, but will do so. Y'all wish me luck. That screw's in TIGHT!

Thanks.

[tall grass]

Backwater

I used a vice grip to get the selftapped screws loose when the mold was cold. The vice grip has to have good jaws as it has to grip the lower part of that rounded head. The hole was plenty deep, so tapped it as far down as the tap would go and put a longer screw in it. It has held so far.

Jim

[Blackwater]

TG, this screw's head has NO square sides at all, and I can't get hold of it with anything. Thanks, but already tried that. I'm waiting until I'm in the right mood to tackle this .... if that ever happens? [smilie=l:

[tall grass]

Blackwater

I may have gotten lucky but I got two mold screws out with the vice grips. I've had a lot of practice though, use to be a farm equipment mechanic. If you haven't tried a curved jawed vice grip, medium or large, you probably won't have any luck. Get on the screw with the outter end of the jaws where it is knurled.

Good luck

Jim

[drinks]

BW;
At the junky tool stores and catalogs you can find an impact screwdriver, comes with 2 plain and 2 Phillips bits, you get the best fitting bit, press down really hard , twist counter clockwise and tap the top of the tool with a hammer. Should loosen just about anything, I got on to it in the '60's, trying to get those Jap cross head screws out of motorcycle cases. They are $6-8.
Don

[Blackwater]

Drinks, I thought about that, but was concerned about the impact on the soft aluminum. I've learned through the years that the next bigger size hammer isn't always the best way to handle stuff, but this one's stuck so bad I may just have to give it a whack. The darn screw head's so soft that I figured that was also a good reason to try to do something else, but the head's sunk down and there's nothing but sloping sides above the washer. Dang frustrating, but if I have to, I guess I can drill the head off, get the shank out, and put a new screw in that'll fit better. I sure do appreciate the low cost of Lee moulds, but another 50 cents to a dollar for a screw I can get to wouldn't break me. Oh well ....

Tall Grass, if you worked on farm equipment, you have my deepest sympathy! [smilie=l: Looks like this particular mould is wanting to behave like one of those farm machines, too! Ain't it funny how almost all farm machines I've seen have "personality about them?"

[Linstrum]

Hey, there, Blackwater, you've got a chore in front of you, that's fer shure. The guys have given all the best ways to get that stubborn screw out, except for two. If you can, chuck up the Phillips screwdriver in a drill press and put the mould block in a drill press vise and use lots of down pressure while very carefully turning by hand. If it is backing out hard, stop and do the next thing. This part about getting screws out of aluminum I learned from an old master (my Dad) who worked with aluminum a good part of his life in the aerospace industry. When you get a screw stuck in aluminum, take some 600-grit silicon carbide or other lapping compound and mix in with some kerosene so it is thin and soupy. All you need is a pinch of the fine grit, a teaspoon is way too much. Drip some of the the gritty kerosene onto the screw so it runs down into the threads then start working the screw back and forth. If the screw is going to turn at all it will usually come loose in a few minutes. Keep rocking the screw back and forth instead of unscrewing it, all the while feeding the gritty kerosene into the threads drop by drop. Aluminum is treacherous stuff as far as threads stripping while UNSCREWING something. I don't know how many Volkswagen bug and microbus engine heads I fixed the sparkplug holes in with steel self-threading inserts that I made, but it was a bunch. The spark plugs always seemed to strip while removing them, not tightening them! Repairing them helped put me through college and it would have made a good second income when I finished except they stopped making the aircooled Volkswagens with bare aluminum spark plug holes. Good luck with your mould and front stuffer!

[Blackwater]

Thjanks, Linstrum. I may indeed have need for your technique, and it's a new one for me. I'm really not looking forward to addressing this recalcitrant screw, but it's got to be done. It's worthless as it is, or nearly so, so it's something I've just got to do. I was sick this weekend, so didn't get my round tuit, but I keep thinking that there's GOT to be something I can do other than drilling the head off and twisting out the shaft with a vise grip or whatever. I fear that's what I'm going to have to do, though, and from the feel of it so far, I may well have the chance to see if I can mimic your technique.

I'd never be much of a mechanic, I guess. I reach for the next size hammer MUCH too quick when I encounter something like this. Well, at least I know that's a weakness, and have learned (sort of) to deal with it, and (usually) to control my baser instincts when I run into stuff like this.

Thanks for all the suggestions. It looks like this one ain't goin' down easy!

[MarkinNWArk]

Blackwater, since you mentioned your travails with the CVA Bobcat I thought I would share my experience- This is a posting I did on another group site- - -Mark
Tuning My CVA Bobcat 50 Caliber

Well, my journey with my first bp rifle
is finished. I got several guns but never owned
a bp rifle before. A couple of years ago my wife
bought me a CVA Bobcat on sale at Wal Mart for $50.
Traditional sidelock with a black synthetic stock and
fixed sights.

It was a birthday present. I think it was an early model
and uses #11 caps. I saw several examples the next year
that looked like they had switched to a musket cap.

A cute inexpensive little gun, but it shot terrible. With
patched balls and maxi type hollow points, it shot about
a foot low at 25 yards. Too far off to adjust by filing
down the front sight. It also would not group shots, no
matter what load or powder I used it scattered shots in
about a 8 inch circle at 25 yards.

I’m a patch and ball man. I used pre-lubed patches.
Tried some of the thicker commercial pre lubed pillow
ticking patches, but I could hardly get them down the bore.

I finally figured out the bore was rough, or the
lands and grooves were too sharp because my patches
were being cut. Came out of the bore on fire in pieces,
and fluttered to the ground. This amused some of my
shooting buddies. Started a grass fire at the range once.
Ha Ha

I fooled around and bought 2 sets of those dang
plastic colored sights, but they never fit right and were
always coming loose. I finally took a very low profile step
adjustable rear sight off an old Marlin 22 I had around
for parts and tapped it into the rear dovetail. That solved
my rear sight problem and added a couple of inches of
sight radius, which never hurts. This is a short barreled
gun and I can use all the help I can get.

Next was the bore problem. Long ago, I hand
lapped the bore on a inexpensive 30-06 rifle I owned that
shot a lousy group. The hand lapping I did on that rifle
with something called JB Bore Compound was a
complete success. Something else weird happened during
that first bore lapping experience. Long squiggles or curls
of copper came out of the barrel. The bore was really rough
and badly copper fouled. Wasn’t damaged, or anything. Just a cheap
barrel with a rough bore. Afterwards, that 30-06 would cloverleaf
three shots at 100 yds off the bench if I did my part. The
jar of bore compound disappeared somewhere during several
moves. I sure could have used it for the Bobcat.

I’m sure what I did next will probably horrify experts
out there. Off to the local hardware store I went. They didn’t have
any powder type abrasives but I found some MIBRO
cleaning and polishing compound in stick form. I think this stuff
is used on polishing wheels or something. I got a stick of #1 for
Hard Polishing/heavy duty cleaning and a stick of #5 Light Polishing.
The grit range of sticks was from 1 to 6.

At home I removed the barrel from the stock and used two C type
clamps and clamped the barrel down on the picnic table in the back
yard. Next I cut off a chunk of the stick of the #1 compound and
mortised it on a plate with a spoon until it resembled powder.
I didn’t have any “cutting oil”, so again I had to find a substitute.
Finally settle on a bottle of sticky hand lotion with virtually no
lubricating qualities. (Egad!!!) Rigged up a tight patch on a cleaning
rod, soaked it with the hand lotion and smeared on a liberal amount
of the #1 compound.

Starting with an absolutely clean barrel, I ran 200 full-length strokes
down the barrel with the #1, being careful not to jam the connecting
joints of the cleaning rod on the end of the barrel. I immediately noticed
the lapping was cutting metal because the patch and goop on the patch
started turning light gray, then dark metal gray. Hey, something either
good or bad is happening here.

Thorough cleaning.

With a new patch, I repeated the process. 200 full length strokes with the
#5 compound. Same thing happened. First the patch and goop on the patch
started turning light gray, then dark metal gray.

Another thorough cleaning.

This weekend a buddy and I went out to the range for sight-in because
this was the last weekend before hunting season opens. The results of the
new rear sight and bore lapping were fantastic. It’s a different gun. At 50
yards off the bench with the same patches and balls, the holes are nearly
touching. No problem breaking clay bird targets at about 65 yards every
shot if I do my part. Seems to like 75 grains of FF Triple Seven Replica
Black Powder. I ran it up to 90 grains with the same results but recoil
is noticeably heavier. Friends and I are having really good luck with this
powder.

How about that ! ! It was a pain in the backside, but my little 50 caliber
Bobcat is finally a slick little shooter that is not to be trifled with! ! !

[Diamond-City-Bob]

Get the darned thing out however you can, you've had some excelent sugestions. Next drill the hole for a 10/32 screw, tap it, true up your sprue plate with the top of your mold re-assemble and never look back. Or if you goober things up, drill all the way through the mold block get a long screw a lock washer and a nut and go at it this way, works real good.
Bob

[Ken O]

As someone else mentioned, the impact screwdriver has work good for me. I assume you already tried spraying some Kroil on it.

[Blackwater]

MarlinNWArk, great story. I and a few friends have been doing stuff like that for many years, and is what I kinda' halfway planned on, if it didn't shoot out of the box. I hate to admit it, but I haven't had the chance to shoot that rifle YET! Have two elderly neighbor friends, and their health makes me not shoot in my yard anymore, so that's put a damper on a lot of my shooting and testing.

FWIW, been looking at the Wms. WGRS for the CVAs. Looks like it'll be the best way to go for my tired eyes, that never were quite gilt edged to start with. That narrow dovetail for the front sight may have to be opened up to a std. 3/8" one to put a good front sight on it.

A buddy has one under the Traditions brand that appears identical, and he's been using his with Buffalo Bore conicals and 100 gr. of RS Pyrodex (volume measure) or 80 gr. with a .490" RB, and both shoot really small groups, and to the same darn POI as well! That was the final arbiter in my picking that cheap little rifle up. A short, light, handy lil' rifle has some real utility in some of the places I hunt, and that was another factor.

Since I went to the Smithsonian quite a few years back, I've been in love with the Long Rifles, and have always resisted getting an "also ran," knowing it would have probably diminished my chances of making up a REAL Long Rifle. A friend gave me a blank of genuine, grown on his land piece of KY maple that I'll use to build that rifle, when I get my round tuit. It'll have a long barrel, around 40", and will be classically styled and of the "old school." It'll be a RB barrel, but I think I may well get two barrels - one for RB and one for conicals - and fit them to the same stock. It'll be a one pc. full length stock, too. Those guns just stir my passions like few other instruments on this mortal coil. And they CAN shoot just as accurately as yours.

Your post shows there are all sorts of ways to skin a cat, and that's one thing I've learned through the years. BTW, one of the most useful "country boy gunsmithing tricks" I picked up along the way is one I learned from a friend. He took his electric VSR hand drill, and used those little bullet shaped or cone shaped grinding bits to recrown any factory rifle he got that didn't shoot well after bedding it. It's amazing how that transforms some rifles!

I use 400 grit new first, folding about a 1 - 1.5" square in half, and then folding that into another half (square when the folding is done) and open up one part to form a sorta' cone shaped "cup" of sandpaper, and place that over the grinding bit, and then place that on the crown. Then I spin it several turns in one direction, and reverse in the other direction, holding the drill as nearly in line with the bore as I can. I'll then repeat with a small piece of worn/used 400, then with new 600 and again with used/worn 600.

The results I've obtained have occasionally been dramatic. Only one gun I've ever owned failed to respond positively to this treatment, and that was a Ruger .257 Roberts M-77 UL. Loved that darn rifle, but it just wouldn't love me back. Bad barrel, I'm sure, and probably had a chamber off center with the bore. Just my luck! Moved that rifle and still would buy another. Those are just LOVELY rifles with very ladylike stocks. Just a pleasure to use, IF they'll cooperate.

That screw's stuck TIGHT, and as stated above, I'm going to have to drill the head off and fix it. Darn fine mould. Just has a darn stubborn screw. Even as is, it made some good bullets, but that won't last long if I can't loosen that darn screw and screwplate. I've certainly had worse problems.

Thanks again for that story. My buddy must have gotten a good barrel, because he never had to do anything to his, but it looks to me like muzzyloaders can at least SOMETIMES be "recovered" by lapping the barrels. I have some grease that I can use to do much the same thing as you have. Used it to fire lap a #3 Ruger that had an attrociously rough barrel, and it now shoots at or very near MOA as long as I rest the forend on or behind the forend screw. Also looks like cast bullets are a little more sensitive to rough bores than Jbullets are, or at least CAN be.

FWIW, I think a lot of folks would just SWOON if they actually saw what a lot of gunsmiths do to their guns sometimes. That's one of the "dirty little secrets" of gunsmithing, or at least it is with some of them. Most of the stuff just flat WORKS, though, and that's the bottom line, always. Good tip, and if mine doesn't shoot well, you can be sure I'll be lapping that bore. Looks good, but you never know until you actually shoot them. Thanks.

[MarkinNWArk]

Blackwater,

Wrote that "Tuning My Bobcat" thing awhile back. Since then my buddies and I have been getting together at the range on Sunday mornings. We do a little match. Last match I tied for 1st. Only missed one clay bird at 60 yards on that set. Those using much more "expensive" Hawkens and Great Plains guns get the "tight jaw" when they have to go up against my little Bobcat. Ha Ha It really shoots that good.

I'll remember that little re-crowning trick. Never heard of that one before. Thanks. Remember to have some fun because this isn't worth doing unless we are having fun. - -- -MarkinNWArk

[drinks]

I am past 60, so I was in the '50's and '60's bunch that took long and cheap, $10 and up, milsurps and shortened those 30"+ barrels down to a reasonable length.
We did thousands of crowns by using a file and guide to square the muzzle, then taking a 1/4" brass , round head stove bolt, chucking it in a drill motor, putting a small amount of Clover fine valve grinding compound from the auto parts store on the head of the bolt and making an oscillating motion, to keep from grinding a groove in the bolt head, do this until the barrel crown is cut out past the grooves.
Of course, put a plug of paper or rag in the barrel befoe doing this and clean the barrel very well when through.
I last did this about 3 months ago to try to help a '92 from 1910 that had a cratered muzzle, brought the 50 yd groups down from 3 1/2 " to 2 " with the same ammo.

[MarkinNWArk]

BW;
I lucked out on mine, $45 on closeout, have the 250 and 320 REALs, both shoot to 2" at 50yds, about the best I can do with open sights.
Could not even see the front sight, so I silver soldered a 2mm silver bead on it, works much better for me.
Do not have my notebook, but seem to remember 1600-1700 fps with 75 gr 777.
Don

To Drinks,
Wow, that's odd. My Bobcat shines with exactly the same load/powder. 75 grains (by volume) of FF 777 I'm using a patched ball though.
Weird, we must be doing something right. - - - -MarkinNWArk

[preparehandbook]

Wow, I'm intrigued. Now I'm gonna have to buy a CVA bobcat. I'm a sucker for cheap project guns.

[Linstrum]

Wow, I'm intrigued. Now I'm gonna have to buy a CVA bobcat. I'm a sucker for cheap project guns.

I hope the price hasn't gone up, gotta remember that was half a decade ago and prices have gone up enormously since then! [smilie=b: :groner:

I hope you find what you want, though. If you do, be sure to tell us all about it!

Good Luck! :bigsmyl2:


rl872

[mpmarty]

I've got a six hole LEE mold that I tried to remove the sprue plate screw on. Screw broke off flush with the aluminum. I was using a short 3/8" box wrench in my attempt to remove the screw and plate. I'll mail it back to LEE someday and let them screw with it. I don't know what they make this bolt out of but I can't touch it with a drill bit. If the mold had much value to me I'd take it to a shop that does EDM work and let them get it out.

[mooman76]

CVA dropped their line of sidelock MLs.

[preparehandbook]

I just saw some for $50ish at midway.