Suggestions for trapdoor 45/70 bullet

[jonk]

I scored a nice trapdoor at a recent show for $475- about $100 less than the cheapest I've seen and in nice shape, though the stock has had the pi$$ refinished out of it- and am looking to get a good bullet mold.

So two questions. What molds have y'all had luck with? I would shoot a mix of smokeless and blackpowder out of her, depending on my mood. Second, what alloy would you recommend? When shooting blackpowder I would probably use 30:1 or thereabouts, just enough tin to help the mold fill out, but for smokeless I'd be inclined to run a bit harder- air cooled wheelweights for instance. Thoughts?

[45 2.1]

LEE offers a 405 gr. hollow base boolit when cast 40:1 or a little softer makes very nice groups out of Trapdoors with smokeless powder. You would probably do well with it with BP.

[9.3X62AL]

Good recommendation by 45-2.1 there.

I'm not sure how the disconnect occurs, but the mainstream moldmakers have trouble producing cavities that fit even modern rifles, let alone older TD's with the .462"-.463" grooves that sometimes are seen. That HB design could be a life-saver for wide-bodied bores.

[jonk]

Yes, I saw the Lee mold and it is certainly on my list of top choices. I'm no great fan of their Minie molds but suppose I could put up with it, I mean it's not a gun that I'd shoot weekly or even monthly.

The other issue that creates though is one of lubing. Running a minie through a Lubri-sizer doesn't sound all that smart, unless you want to use a lot of lube and fill the base up. Or won't this happen? Wouldn't running it through a sizer crush the skirt? Would this be a pan lube only candidate? With smokeless tumble lubing is fine too, but with BP I would use SPG or a similar homemade brew.

[45 2.1]

The other issue that creates though is one of lubing. Running a minie through a Lubri-sizer doesn't sound all that smart, unless you want to use a lot of lube and fill the base up. Or won't this happen? Wouldn't running it through a sizer crush the skirt? Would this be a pan lube only candidate? With smokeless tumble lubing is fine too, but with BP I would use SPG or a similar homemade brew.

No problem with lubing. Get the mold and cast with it. Have a H&I die made so it will lube the boolit without much sizing. Somewhere around 0.462".

[9.3X62AL]

The "secret" to getting the Lee Minie molds to act right for me was to run the unalloyed lead at 800*+, and dip the pin support plate into the melt EVERY pour for about 12 seconds prior to filling the cavity.

I haven't tried any HB boolits in a sizer die myself--maybe someone who has will jump in here. I just did things the old-fashioned way--Beagled a Lee 405 mold up to about .460" for my Ruger #1's .459" throat and grooves. A member here recently upgraded my 45 rifle possibilities greatly with an older Lyman #462560, just the thing to have around if mastodons get re-introduced around the La Brea Tar Pits, which are west of me here. Ya never know what the tree-hugging weed eaters will try next, given their bit with the condors--and you just know they saw "Jurassic Park". And a mastodon in the corn and tomatoes gives "varmint hunting" a whole new dimension.

[44man]

A boolit that shoots nice out of them is the Rapine 500 gr gov't boolit in .460". They shot great from a friends original with 3031. Sorry I can't remember the load but he killed a bunch of deer with it.

[black44hawk]

Good points made about the variations in antique barrels: thats one you definitely want to slug. I have had stellar results with the Lee 405 in my Handi-Rifle, which may be similar to the reduced cavalry load when this rifle saw service. Incidentally, if you do not wish to shoot maximum pressure loads in your rifle, try using around 13 grains of TrailBoss. It makes my 45-70 kick like a butterfly and is accurate enough to decapitate a rabbit!

[jonk]

Thanks blackhawk. I've already loaded some with trailboss to try using a buddy's loading set up. I can't wait to see how it does! (He buys lasercast bullets)

[dmftoy1]

+1 on Lee .405 HB mold. I've had really good luck with it in my Marlin 1895 CB. It seems to drop just a hair over .459 and I've never had any problems with sizing them through my lubri-sizer. (In terms of the base collapsing) I'm shooting pure wheel weights and using LARS Carnuba Red Lube. I'm down to lubing just the bottom two of the 3 lube grooves and haven't had any leading. I'm loading them over 13 grains of trail boss like the previous poster was talking about and it's a nice load where you can shoot 20-50 of them without even thinking about it.


FWIW

[44man]

What I liked about the Rapine boolit is that it hit exactly at the point of aim. Since there was no way to adjust his sights, it was perfect. The gunsmith had loaded him some 405 Lyman boolits with 4198 and recoil was fierce, smacking my cheek bone. They also hit way up at the top of the backstop.
I had a fear of smacking my cheek with the 500 gr boolits but recoil was very mild with the load of 3031 I chose, groups were very good and hit center.
My friend moved to Myrtle Beach and I can't remember the load.
I then tried my revolver loads with my 317 gr boolit and punched one ragged hole at 50 yd's but they hit very low on the target.

[drinks]

I go with the Lee 405HB, I have shot it from 1000 to 1600fps, found in my Handi rifle the most accurate speed was 1200fps, have shot several 50 yd groups where it is impossible to find the separate strikes, just one hole.
I tried BHN 6 to 14 alloys and could tell no difference.
I do have a tight barrel, .4565 groove diameter, so a larger barrel might do much differently.
If you have a really large barrel, PM me and I shall send you a reamer to make the bullet the size you need, that is, + .002" of groove diameter.

[dromia]

Ditto the Lee 405 Gn HB it shoots good in my Trapdoor over BP as does the SAECO .460" Postell. Both will give 2" groups with Black at 100 yrds if I do my bit.

I lube size them in a lubrisizer through a .460" lubesizing die with White Label BPCR lube, if I get good base fill out on my HB Boolits then I don't get much seepage into the hollow base.

I cast these Bollits soft no more than 30-1 lead to tin, you don't want any antimony in these Bolits, flashing lead a nd bar solder for a touch of tin to help fill out and away you go.

I run my pot at up to 850 degrees for this Bollits and dip, don't get consistent results with bottom pour on these bigger Bollits.

Anyone looking to load for a Trapdoor with BP should get JS & Pat Wolf's book on loading the Trapdoor, Pat does the dies and Lee moulds as well, her site is Wolfs Western Traders and its here:-

http://www.the45-70book.com/Home.html?sid=b480106821af1cde88362f42e3800796

[jonk]

Ok, I've ordered the Lee 405 HB mold.

I'll try playing with it for fill out. In my past experience with minie and hollow base bullets, either a ladle pour or holding it flush against the bottom pour spout to get a little extra pressure worked best- but gotta be careful that it doesn't squirt.

[leftiye]

Jonk, Ya hafta open up the flow rate of the spout as you cast bigger boolits. Just another way to solve the problem FWIW.

Also, if you do have trouble casting -especially after increasing the flow rate, see about methods for opening up the vent lines, and beveling the top edge of the mold halves, and add vertical vent lines between cavities. Don't know what to say, I hear people saying that big boolits are hard to cast, but I'd rather cast big than small.

[Misfire99]

I have a Sharps falling block copy. I shoot black powder only in it. I have tried so many different molds to get it to shoot well and the only one that even comes close to a good bullet is the Lee 405 hollow base bullet. I use pure lead cast at a high temp to fill out the mold. I don't size them and I lube them in a pan with melted lube poured over them. If you load with black powder make sure you use a drop tube to charge the cases. This also helped accuracy.