Tough Chambering 30-06

[caseyboy]

Hi All,
I have been shooting a Savage 30/06 with cast loads for awhile now. Yesterday at the range, I noticed that most rounds, about 100, were stiffer to chamber than usual. Nothing has changed with the load. Cases are neck sized with a Lee collet die. Boolits are sized to 0.311. Cases are the same Winchesters that I have been using for awhile. I did check afterwards a number of cases for length, and they are all under max length. I don't know what is causing this. I did smoke a number of cases at the shoulder, and there is definite contact of the shoulder in the chamber. Looking for suggestions.
Mike

[plainsman456]

You might need to bump the shoulder back some.

[caseyboy]

Hi Plainsman,
I forgot to mention that I tried full lenght sizing a couple of cases, but that didn't seem to help. Could it be that the brass is springing back? These cases have probably had 10 firings on them. Is it time to anneal?
Mike

[williamwaco]

You might need to bump the shoulder back some.

Ditto.


Take a fired case that is hard to chamber.

Normally I would recommend that you turn the seating die "in" one eight turn. Resize the case again and try to chamber it. Repeat until you can feel the shoulder touch the chamber but the pressure is no longer needed.

Note: One eighth turn of the die will move the die 0.0714 deeper into the press. When you touch the shoulder with the die, one eighth turn will set the shoulder back by that amount. That is too much.

Since you already know you are in contact with the shoulder in the chamber. Turn the die into the press a "tiny bit" to me that means turn the die enough that the outside of the locking ring moves about 1/16 inch. Then try again.

It is possible your die may "bottom out" before it sets the shoulder back enough to chamber with no pressure.

We will cross that bridge if we get to it.


.

[caseyboy]

Thanks Williamwaco,
The FL sizing die is adjusted to make contact with the shellholder, so I believe that the FL die is bottoming out before the shoulder gets set back.
Mike

[Rich Cronk]

You might need to bump the shoulder back some.
-------------------------
Exactly!

[williamwaco]

Thanks Williamwaco,
The FL sizing die is adjusted to make contact with the shellholder, so I believe that the FL die is bottoming out before the shoulder gets set back.
Mike

Ooops,

That is a tough one.

Without working on the barrel, the only way to fix that is with a new die or a grinder.

If you choose the grinder, I would grind a few thousandths off the top of the shell holder instead of the bottom of the die.
I would be surprised if it needs more than three or four thousandths.

If you screw it up, a new shell holder is cheaper than a new die.
AND the die could be perfect. the problem could be with the chamber.

[Rich Cronk]

Thanks Williamwaco,
The FL sizing die is adjusted to make contact with the shellholder, so I believe that the FL die is bottoming out before the shoulder gets set back.
Mike
-----------------------
Yes! I have been forced to shorten a couple of sizing dies in a lathe for exactly that reason.

[Heavy lead]

Are you sure that the shellholder is touching the die when the case is in it? Reason I ask is there is always some spring, I ground a little bit of die off once (not on a 06, but it was a bottleneck cartridge just like it) and as it turned out it was not needed, it's a long story how I came to the conclusion, but I would check it to make sure.
Not trying to be a know it all, I just had something happen like this once and this may be the case.
I would turn the die down slightly more than touching when empty and try it for grins.

[HangFireW8]

Are you sure that the shellholder is touching the die when the case is in it?

Exactly! Touching under no stress doesn't mean touching with a tough case sizing inside. This is why RCBS presses "cam over". Even the Lee presses can be adjusted for an interference fit with no case, which will turn into zero interference with a case inside.

[runfiverun]

pretty common to still have a bit more to go with a case in the die.
how is the case length?

[swheeler]

I think that Heavy Lead brings up a good point and worth checking. Being it is a plunger type ejector I would also make sure it is operating freely. Take a punch or unsharpened pencil and press the ejector in until it touches the bolt face.

[Huntducks]

This is the most frequent problem with 06 there is, you need to bump the shoulder back further and a lee set up is poor at doing that. IMHO lee shell holders are junk, screw the die till it touch then start by turning in 1/16 try a case if it's still hard to close go a bit more, I used to use several lee collet dies now I use either Redding or RCBS neck sizers and FL after a few firings and the the only thing I use the Lee for is seating the bullets.

Go ahead lee guys flame away.

[caseyboy]

Hi All,
Never thought that it may not be touching will brass in the FL sizer. I will go check now.
Mike

[mpmarty]

Measure case neck thickness as .311 boolit with a thick neck will cause this problem also.

[geargnasher]

Sounds to me like the FL die/shellholder combination used for the FL part isn't matching the chamber. I have to bump shoulders about every five firings or so, and I do mean just BUMP, not cram the cases to a dead-head in the die.

That brings up something else: While the die and shellholder could certainly be at fault (recently went through this with a .35 Remington seat/crimp die that was 1/16" too long to even begin to crimp a max OAL case), I wonder if the rifle is headspaced too tightly. It's a Savage, I'm assuming with a barrel nut. Headspace is easy to correct with a set of gauges and barrel nut wrench if it's set too tight for the dies and the dies are right.

Gear

[caseyboy]

Good point Geargnasher. The FL sizer and shellholder I am using is RCBS. I tried reszing with a .004 shim under the case in the shellholder and stiil the die does not touch he shoulder. This makes me think that either the sizer is wrong, or the rifle is headspaced incorrectly.

[country gent]

Pick up a MOs gage or the version from RCBS these measure the "headspace" and allow you to measure if your setting the shoulder back. A gage can be made in a lathe easy enough. Take a piece of 1" round stock drill a .340 hole thru it on center. Bore the shoulder angle into it and polish/ Face to 1" long ( easy number gives room to hol ect ect) This will give a comparative measurement. Measure case size and remeasure. If dimension is same your not moving the shoulder if it is .001-.003 less your fine any ore may be to much. In some cases a fireformed cases shoulder will move foreward a few thousandths before starting to be pushed back. Also measure the base of a case that does chamber easily and compare to cases that arnt, or blacken a case with a marfer or soot and chamber to see where it is binding. Some dies do a poor job of sizing the base down. ( I dont think you collet sizing die sizes anything but the neck of the case. As to shell holde versus die I pefer to face of the die bottom rather than the shell holder. I have to many shell holders to keep one dedicated to a die set.

[pmer]

66272

Hey guys, here is a good way to measure shoulder movement when sizing and firing. It's a Stoney Point OAL gauge that measures length off the ogive. Here I'm measuring the shoulder length of a 17 Mach 4 using the 30 cal. insert.

I think you can get these through Hornaday now. I started doing this when I shooting long range.

[caseyboy]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I think what I will do is FL resize a bunch of the brass with a friends FL die and see if that makes a difference. If it does, than my die is probably out of spec. If not it is probably the rifle head spacing.

[runfiverun]

I have had to grind a shell holder before.

[WILCO]

What about going to a smaller diameter on the boolit and just trimming the cases? Sometimes it really is that easy.

[remy3424]

Might try a different shellholder if you have an extra kicking around.

[rond]

Have you trimmed your brass?

[Rich Cronk]

Ooops,

That is a tough one.

Without working on the barrel, the only way to fix that is with a new die or a grinder.

If you choose the grinder, I would grind a few thousandths off the top of the shell holder instead of the bottom of the die.
I would be surprised if it needs more than three or four thousandths.

If you screw it up, a new shell holder is cheaper than a new die.
AND the die could be perfect. the problem could be with the chamber.
--------------------------------
I have heard the "grind the shell holder down a little" statement a couple of times before. Can someone explain how grinding the shell holder down a little is really going to do anything other than require a man to screw the too long die down a bit further til it hits the shell holder again? Since the die itself is what determines minimum length it will size the brass, it seems to me that no matter how short the shell holder, the die will still be too long. [smilie=b:

[762 shooter]

Grinding the shell holder a little will allow the die to set the shoulder back more. Die moves farther down the brass.

If that's the problem.

762

[David2011]

Grinding the top of the shellholder worked for me as well, trying to get a little swell out of the bases of some cartridges. It saved altering a die and the amount of sizing could be selected by the choice of shellholders. 'Em suckers are hard steel- ended up using a cup stone in the milling machine which made the amount of removal easy to control and kept things square.

David

[flounderman]

they make small base resizing dies for a reason. You might be working on the wrong end.

[Rich Cronk]

"Grinding the shell holder a little will allow the die to set the shoulder back more. Die moves farther down the brass."
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Think about it. Grinding the shell holder will NOT alter the size of the die, and certainly do nothing to change size of the cartridge case.

[fishhawk]

It will allow the brass to be pushed further into the die. Had to do it with a shell holder I was using to form .222 out of .223 brass.

[Jim]

"Grinding the shell holder a little will allow the die to set the shoulder back more. Die moves farther down the brass."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Think about it. Grinding the shell holder will NOT alter the size of the die, and certainly do nothing to change size of the cartridge case.

With all due respect, I beg to differ with you, Sir. Machining off the top of the shell holder most certainly will push the brass farther into the die, thus setting the shoulder back.

I have an RCBS number 2 that fits .473 case heads like .243, .308, 8MM and .30-06. I had .020 machined off it for die forming .30-06 cases to 8MM. A standard shell holder won't quite set the shoulder back far enough to die form the brass in preperation for fire forming. The machined shell holder sets the shoulder back .020 and all the die formed cases will chamber in my 8MM rifle.

I have proven countless hundreds of times that it does work.

[waksupi]

I prefer grinding off a bit of the die, personally.

[oneokie]

The distance from the top of a shell holder to the surface that supports the case head is supposed to be 0.125". One can use automotive leaf type feeler gauges to insert between the case head and the shell holder surface to determine the amount of material that needs to be removed from either the shell holder (preferred) or the die.

[Rich Cronk]

With all due respect, I beg to differ with you, Sir. Machining off the top of the shell holder most certainly will push the brass farther into the die, thus setting the shoulder back.

I have an RCBS number 2 that fits .473 case heads like .243, .308, 8MM and .30-06. I had .020 machined off it for die forming .30-06 cases to 8MM. A standard shell holder won't quite set the shoulder back far enough to die form the brass in preperation for fire forming. The machined shell holder sets the shoulder back .020 and all the die formed cases will chamber in my 8MM rifle.

I have proven countless hundreds of times that it does work.
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You almost have me convinced----Sorry but what you say is not possible. The thickness of shell holder has nothing to do with die length. Think about it. I won't say any more about this because some people confuse facts with unproven theory. You gain nothing, I repeat----nothing by grinding shell holder thinner. Why? because the die is still too long. :veryconfu

[Moonie]

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You almost have me convinced----Sorry but what you say is not possible. The thickness of shell holder has nothing to do with die length. Think about it. I won't say any more about this because some people confuse facts with unproven theory. You gain nothing, I repeat----nothing by grinding shell holder thinner. Why? because the die is still too long. :veryconfu

Ok, think about it this way, the distance from the bottom of the case to the shoulder is the distance from the top of the shell holder to the shoulder in the die plus the distance from the bottom of the case to the top of the shell holder, correct? If you reduce the second measurement it will reduce distance from the bottom of the case to the shoulder in the die... Not rocket surgery...

[williamwaco]

Jim is correct!


Caseyboy?

Do we have a resolution yet?





.

[Green Lizzard]

rich, even in an unalterd set the case never fully enters the die

when you grind off some of the shell holder it goes in farther

[HangFireW8]

------------------------------------------------
You almost have me convinced----Sorry but what you say is not possible. The thickness of shell holder has nothing to do with die length. Think about it. I won't say any more about this because some people confuse facts with unproven theory. You gain nothing, I repeat----nothing by grinding shell holder thinner. Why? because the die is still too long. :veryconfu

[smilie=b::veryconfu:veryconfu:veryconfu

[Rich Cronk]

I got to thinking about this last night and came to realize that I had allowed my mouth to run before my brain had kicked in. Since the cartridge head is under the shell holder, shaving the shell holder thinner would in fact accomplish the same thing as would grinding the die shorter. Please accept my sincere apologies.

[flounderman]

there is a reason they make small base sizing dies. You could be working on the wrong end of the case. Check around the base of a fired case to see if it shows signs of expanding to where it is tight.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I'm about to state the obvious, which can often be over looked.
Have you thoroughly cleaned the chamber ?
shooting lubed cast boolits can "gum" up a chamber, making a tight chamber even tighter. Many times when people clean a rifle, the chamber doesn't get scrubed shiney clean.
My 2¢,
Jon

[Rich Cronk]

there is a reason they make small base sizing dies. You could be working on the wrong end of the case. Check around the base of a fired case to see if it shows signs of expanding to where it is tight.
------------------------------------
Very good point sir. Also check for the evil bright ring that means big trouble ahead. If first few firings sized OK and chambered just fine, you may be looking at results of loads that are too hot.

[Jim]

I got to thinking about this last night and came to realize that I had allowed my mouth to run before my brain had kicked in. Since the cartridge head is under the shell holder, shaving the shell holder thinner would in fact accomplish the same thing as would grinding the die shorter. Please accept my sincere apologies.

Speaking only for myself, no apology necessary, you haven't offended me. I simply disaggreed and stated my point of view. As far as I'm concerned, we never were at odds.

[762 shooter]

I load 308 for quite a few firearms.

A case guage is my best friend. To steal the postal service ad line, If it fits it ships.

762

[caseyboy]

Sorry guys, have been away for a couple of days. I tried the automotive feelers guages under the shell holder. The thinnest I have is an 0.010". That seems to do the trick. I will pickup another shell holder and if necessary have some milled off the top.
Thanks for all your help.
Mike

[caseyboy]

Hi Guys,
Mystery solved. I hadn't looked at this in awhile as it was pi$$ing me off. Finally dragged it out of the locker this morning to go through it piece by piece. What I did notice this morning, but not before is a bit of scoring on the outside of the bolt head. As it turns out, the bolt head is making contact with the front action screw. A 1/16" trim of the action screw length solved the problem. So simple that I feel relieved, but stupid.:oops:
Cheers Mike

[leeggen]

Sometimes we just have to backup and take a break to see the problem. Glad to see a simple screw adjustment fixed it.
CD

[smoked turkey]

Well it wasn't all lost. I thought this was an interesting read and a good case in the way to solve a problem. In addition I picked up a few things in the process.

[Bigslug]

I recently went through something like this with some boolits that were a bit on the chubby side. Turning .001 off the case necks solved the problem.

[44man]

"Grinding the shell holder a little will allow the die to set the shoulder back more. Die moves farther down the brass."
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Think about it. Grinding the shell holder will NOT alter the size of the die, and certainly do nothing to change size of the cartridge case.
More brass sticks out of the shell holder is what happens.

[dondiego]

I have a friend with a Savage 110 in 30-06 and the front action screw was too long on his rifle as well. He had a heck of a time with that rifle until we saw the marks on the bolt and figured it out.

[deerstalkert]

that long screw has been the bane of 110 for years. when I had a gs I picked up many fine 110's that guy's were sick of for that reason. cranking down on the action screw repeatedly would compress the wood and all of a sudden a problem.

[triggerhappy243]

here is an interesting thought. your barrel is creeping forward

[Ted]

I know this issue has been solved but I'll throw in a possibility just for the halibut.

A couple of months ago I was reloading some 30-06 for my sons Rem 700. I had 100-125 rounds of once fired military range pickup brass (still had the primer crimp) that I prepped for him. FL re-sized, de-crimped, trimmed and tumbled clean. When I say FL re-sized I mean FL. Die bottom touching the shell holder and forcing it to go "over center" with a little force.

Not ONE of those cases would chamber in his R700. Nore would they chamber in my old Mauser. This had me a little bugged because I'm cheap and did not want to throw away the time and sweat I had in that brass, or the brass itself. I got to thinking about it and realized that I had FL re-sized them using my old Lyman Spar-T press. So I took some of that brass, the same dies and shell holder and re-FL re-sized them using my Rock Chuck JR. After that they fed like a champ through the R700.

The Lyman Spar-T press had just enough more spring then the RC JR to allow the brass to not work in the R700.

For what its worth in a case like this I think I'll re-size future range pickup (like that 200+ rounds of Greek 06 brass I found a while back) in the RC Jr press.

[triggerhappy243]

Ted....... if that brass was fired out of a garand, you should have used a small base F/L die.