oops i need help

[jackmanuk]

hey guys last night 2 of my brass decided to blow in half (not split ) completely blow apart into 2 bits the fron of the brass and rear... i guess i need to ease off on the grainage

anyway the front half on the brass is stuck in the chamber of my rossi 92 and i got no idea how to free it iv tried digging it out iv jsut tryed ramming a bullet sown the wrong way to see if it will grip it and pull it out .... nope but at least i now know the bore diameter



any ideas would be great

thanks

jack

[jackmanuk]

woops never mind on spending about 2 mins stareing into the chamber wondering how it can be so far in and then looking at the floor iv discovered the peice did in fact fall out when i rammed the bullet down

and since i now know my bore dia is 0.427 "

[FLHTC]

Look for a light colored line around the circumference of the case, about a half inch up from the base. It sounds like you had simple case head separation. You might be causing it by pushing the shoulder back too far upon sizing. When the round goes off, the thinner brass expands first, which is the neck and shoulder area. After this happens, the rear of the case expands backwards causing the case to stretch just forward of the web. This is where you'll find that light colored line.
Use a cleaning rod with a heavy patch and go in from the muzzle. You should be able to drive it out that way.

Ooops, i see it was a lever gun and straight walled case

[TXGunNut]

One good way to remove a separated case is to remove the bolt and shove a larger cleaning brush on a short rod into the chamber-it must be a tight fit, like maybe one for a 16-20 ga shotgun in this case. After jamming it in there, simply pull it out. Front half of the case should come with it. It will ruin the brush but save a trip to the gunsmith.

[jackmanuk]

i thought the same thing about the stretched brass i had used the cases about 5-6 times with my nice 24 grains of 4227 i also think im putting to much crimp on some of my loads as well
either way i think il tone them down abit

http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq279/jackmanuk/JACK-PC/photobucket/IMAG0053_zps4c3534a2.jpg

[btroj]

What cartridge? A straight pistol case shouldn't have that issue unless loads are pretty darn hot. A bottleneck case is different, full length size them and push the shoulder back and you are inviting case separations.
No matter what, something is wrong.

[jackmanuk]

im using a lee carbide 44 mag die for well... 44 mag i think its full lenght i jsut noticed another case i fired it was not blown in 2 but a distinct line around the center showing the stress. again i think the amount of powder i use compared to the crimp i force on them probably doesn't help the situation

[btroj]

What bullet and powder charge? An over charge can allow the case head to move back while the front of the case is held firmly in place by pressure. This leads to stretching of the case and gives case separations like that.

[jackmanuk]

its 24 grains for 4227 with a 210 grain cast bullet , I rekon your right the brass is streching , iv never measured the chamber in the rifle , maybe i should seat the bullet alittle less into the brass to reduce the build up as well as reduce the crimp

[44man]

Another thing to think about is the brand of brass.
I see you are in the UK. What are you able to get?
I have Rem .44 brass shot 42 times and is still good and many other US brands still going but seen foreign stuff crack at the first reload.
That does NOT look like a high pressure failure.
That is also not case stretch, it takes many, many shots to have to trim straight wall cases.

[jackmanuk]

the case was orriganlly a cbc case from a magtec 44 fmj with 240 would we say that factory loaded brass isnt as strong as brass made for reloading . i can get remi brass but it provs difficult, not all shops here (there aint many wayway) stock reloading components and 44 brass is even harder sicne the fun side of shooting isnt not hte same over here its more high power rifles for deer managment

[44man]

the case was orriganlly a cbc case from a magtec 44 fmj with 240 would we say that factory loaded brass isnt as strong as brass made for reloading . i can get remi brass but it provs difficult, not all shops here (there aint many wayway) stock reloading components and 44 brass is even harder sicne the fun side of shooting isnt not hte same over here its more high power rifles for deer managment
That might be the answer.
The brass we had fail was A-Merc. I never seen any Mag Tech stuff but it is something to look at.
I have seen .44 and .45 Colt brass taken to unreal pressures by friends that don't listen and the brass was fine.
I think your brass is brittle because that is what I see.
I just do not see that you did anything wrong with your loads.
NO, factory brass for Rem, WW, Fed, or Starline brass will last almost forever. It is cheap ammo that uses cheap brass that will be the problem.
Relax my friend, it was NOT your fault.

[jackmanuk]

thats good to hear maybe i will keep using my 24 grain load after all , i have alot of 44 specal accumulating but un able to load them thanks to my 44 mag die il find all my magtech stuff and keep it to one side for use on the lower kick stuff.

and whilst im here iv thought of a new question ;

now and again i get some blast back from my chamber of my rossi 92 ,is this a common thing?
I also see a great deal of burn residue around some of my case after iv shot which would suggest the the brass is not tight to the chamber, right? is this an issue ?

[btroj]

Low pressure loads don't swell the case to seal the chamber. I get this a lot in my Marlin in 45 Colt. Low pressure loads usually show more soot on the case than higher pressure loads. Not a big deal.

[jackmanuk]

ok good to know i guess its a common thing with straight walled brass

[rexherring]

I'd try annealing the cases to soften up brittle brass. The heavy crimp shouldn't be a problem as it helps the powder ignition on slow powders. That load will be close to a compressed load but try backing off to 22 grs and work back up.

[jackmanuk]

i was told 4227 is a fast powder, yes 24 is close i no this because 26 is a compressed loaded and ended up with no extra performance so i backed down to 24 i think i will try annealing my cases and now i think about it i did stick some cases in the oven at 200 c to dry them off maybe that hardened them

[runfiverun]

4227 is not a fast powder in the pistol cartridges.
it s back there behind h-110.
4227 is just not a happy camper in the 44 mag, it gets a bit goofy when things heat up.
I have about 1-k cbc cases and have shot them a number of times and haven't had any issues with it.
it does seem to be a bit harder than my other brands though.

[Dusty Bannister]

200 C is about 392 F and you annealed the entire brass case to a soft condition. Yes, that can result in failure.

[jackmanuk]

iv jsut done some measuring of my brass and the full length sized brass has a average dia of 0.450" from base to neck the un sized brass as a max dia of 0.459"and min of 0.455" you can actually see the bulging on the case so maybe i am putting excess stress on the brass and sizing is just killing it so maybe i should think of annealing my brass

[jackmanuk]

ok no more oven drying :D

[44man]

i was told 4227 is a fast powder, yes 24 is close i no this because 26 is a compressed loaded and ended up with no extra performance so i backed down to 24 i think i will try annealing my cases and now i think about it i did stick some cases in the oven at 200 c to dry them off maybe that hardened them
That did not harden the brass. (OH nuts, centigrade, will you Limeys understand we don't use that? How do you cook meat?) Heat will soften but it must be near red hot or a color change. This annealing should not be done for a revolver but will not hurt in a rifle. You need to heat farther down the brass with what you have and could get too close to the base and get dangerous softness.
Toss the stuff.
I get lube and carbon on .44 brass even with full power loads. Ignore that.
I never use 4227 in the .44 because gun heat will increase pressures and velocities. But it will NOT make brass fail.
You just have bad brass. The alloy might be wrong. Heat treatment might be wrong but how would you get it right? Not something to fool with. You can make things worse to withstand pressures.
I am not going to suggest anything to put you in harms way.

[bowfishn]

I'm confused, the load he listed is not even equal to the starting load for 210 gr. Jacketed bullet in a 44 mag cartridge according to Hodgdons. They show 27 as max for 210 jacketed, how much deeper are you seating the cast 210, what is your oal. Is it a 44 mag or 44 spec you are loading? You aren't getting leading with the cast ?:confused:

[44man]

I'm confused, the load he listed is not even equal to the starting load for 210 gr. Jacketed bullet in a 44 mag cartridge according to Hodgdons. They show 27 as max for 210 jacketed, how much deeper are you seating the cast 210, what is your oal. Is it a 44 mag or 44 spec you are loading? You aren't getting leading with the cast ?:confused:
Not the load, the brass.

[jackmanuk]

No I don't get leading . I no the max on lee table is 27 grains Sewell but that would be a seriously compressed load and 26 grains will not fully seat the bullet. I have my bullets seated on the last groove before the bullet head I do get some lead on the brass edge but I reckon the crimps to tight. I reckon it could be down to the oven cooking since it was 2 out of maybe 10 that blew apart . I couldn't tell you if all of them were heated or not I cb only guess probilly not as I only cooked a couple. I reckon I shall just bin the hole lot and start over . And if your a good cook you don't need temps just a microwave or wait till its burnt :)

[Reverend Al]

If you ever separate and stick another case in the chamber I've also used the oversize brush method to get partial cases out. Normally I've used an oversize brush, but I run it down from the muzzle and right out of the back of the chamber, which will usually draw the separated case out with it. That way it doesn't normally destroy your brush either as it usually pushes the brass out ahead of the brush and just drops it into the action ...