California, Condors, and Cartridges

[syh]

As a devout boolit caster, it saddens me to be forced into using non-pb rounds for hunting here on California's central coast.

I usually put cast WW 31141 with "pink" lube (felix with Carnauba from baby bell / maker's mark bottles) over 20 gr of 2400 for my 30-06, with great results.

I purchased some Barnes .308 TSX in 200gr, which was all that was available locally, but I'm having trouble finding good loading data for it. I have some bullseye, 2400, WSF, and unique, and hope that one of those would be appropriate, but my reloading acumen is rather limited.

There's a lot of nuance to selecting powders / loads, and I am just not smart / informed / experienced enough to know where to begin on this. Copper develops pressure differently than lead does, and the weight has an impact as well. I'm hoping that one of the gurus here could help me figure on a starting point, hopefully with something I already have if appropriate.

Barnes' website has the following info:
Bullet Weight: 200 gr Case Trim Length: 2.484" S.D. 0.301
Bullet Style: TSX FB Primer: Federal 210 B.C. 0.423
COAL: 3.218" Barrel Length: 24"
Case: Winchester Twist Rate: 1:10"
Charge Velocity Charge Velocity Load
Powder (grains) (fps) (grains) (fps) Density (%)
RL-15 40.0 2211 44.0 2399 85
Hunter 51.0 2360 57.0 2556 102

Thanks in advance!

[44man]

It is all liberal bull pucky. I never, ever found a lead boolit in an animal for the stupid birds to eat. Jacketed expanding bullets that shatter are more the likely culprits.
It is the stupidity of liberals, tree huggers and the elected that have no concept that are the danger to the animals.
Seen it in the paper the other day when snipers had to shoot deer near DC in a park that has 70 deer per square mile. They are eating everything and disease is coming in. Liberal ***holes protest killing them. Long haired, dope smoking creeps that care about a tick or mosquito more then an an animal or human.
kalifornia is the start that is spreading all over.
For hundreds of years, animals were shot with pure lead and birds did not die unless shot for food. The reason was the boolits and balls went through. If one didn't it killed ONE bird----WOW. After watching a jerk with one of those bumper stickers, PETA or something, near go off the road to run over a squirrel on purpose, we need a season on creeps.
Sorry for the rant but if I had to put up with kalifornia I would move and anyone that lives there should never buy a hunting license to give them money, go to another state.

[Cane_man]

As a devout boolit caster, it saddens me to be forced into using non-pb rounds for hunting here on California's central coast.

I usually put cast WW 31141 with "pink" lube (felix with Carnauba from baby bell / maker's mark bottles) over 20 gr of 2400 for my 30-06, with great results.

I purchased some Barnes .308 TSX in 200gr, which was all that was available locally, but I'm having trouble finding good loading data for it. I have some bullseye, 2400, WSF, and unique, and hope that one of those would be appropriate, but my reloading acumen is rather limited.

There's a lot of nuance to selecting powders / loads, and I am just not smart / informed / experienced enough to know where to begin on this. Copper develops pressure differently than lead does, and the weight has an impact as well. I'm hoping that one of the gurus here could help me figure on a starting point, hopefully with something I already have if appropriate.

Barnes' website has the following info:
Bullet Weight: 200 gr Case Trim Length: 2.484" S.D. 0.301
Bullet Style: TSX FB Primer: Federal 210 B.C. 0.423
COAL: 3.218" Barrel Length: 24"
Case: Winchester Twist Rate: 1:10"
Charge Velocity Charge Velocity Load
Powder (grains) (fps) (grains) (fps) Density (%)
RL-15 40.0 2211 44.0 2399 85
Hunter 51.0 2360 57.0 2556 102

Thanks in advance!

i live in the no-lead buzzard zone as well... not a guru but i have developed several rifle and pistol loads with the Barnes all copper bullets... those powders you have are way too fast for your .308... for my son's 0.308 and 150gr TSX we used Quickload to help us find powders/charges and found that Varget and H4895 gave us the best groups (1/2" moa)... the Barnes loads on their website will work but they will not give you the best groups, imo... you need to seat the bullets 0.050 away from lands as Barnes suggests...

[syh]

It's a 30-06 (though I don't think that makes a difference). So faster powders, like 2400, don't work as well with heavier projectiles, right?

[Cane_man]

It is all liberal bull pucky. I never, ever found a lead boolit in an animal for the stupid birds to eat. Jacketed expanding bullets that shatter are more the likely culprits.
It is the stupidity of liberals, tree huggers and the elected that have no concept that are the danger to the animals.
Seen it in the paper the other day when snipers had to shoot deer near DC in a park that has 70 deer per square mile. They are eating everything and disease is coming in. Liberal ***holes protest killing them. Long haired, dope smoking creeps that care about a tick or mosquito more then an an animal or human.
kalifornia is the start that is spreading all over.
For hundreds of years, animals were shot with pure lead and birds did not die unless shot for food. The reason was the boolits and balls went through. If one didn't it killed ONE bird----WOW. After watching a jerk with one of those bumper stickers, PETA or something, near go off the road to run over a squirrel on purpose, we need a season on creeps.
Sorry for the rant but if I had to put up with kalifornia I would move and anyone that lives there should never buy a hunting license to give them money, go to another state.

to make it even worse, they have conducted studies and found that you have to feed these buzzards several servings of lead per day for years to have any type of toxic effect on them... just makes the libtards feel good that after killing those 73 squirrels today i am not contaminated that field with lead after the rotting corpses allow the boolits to make contact with the earth...

[Cane_man]

It's a 30-06 (though I don't think that makes a difference). So faster powders, like 2400, don't work as well with heavier projectiles, right?

right... much slower powders like H4895, H414, H4831, etc.. if you are flying in the dark just use the "most accurate" loads listed by Barnes from their website for your caliber and bullet...

edit: i have their most recent load book so if you need some info send me a pm

[runfiverun]

baby bell and makers mark don't use carnuba wax.
they use cheese wax with dye in it.

you are just going to have to find data for your 0-6 and the barnes bullet then go buy some powder.

[mdi]

I was under the impression that there were no "scientific studies" done. Some greenie/tree hugger/anti-hunting/ vegetarian found a dead buzzard, someone told him it died of lead poisoning (even though no necropsy was preformed), and with money/political influence convinced fellers in the DFG to ban lead bullets...

[Cane_man]

^^^ this

the scientific studies were done later to demonstrate that the lead boolits are basically harmless to the feeding buzzards (the libtards call them 'raptors' around here, makes them seem so regal and such)

[44man]

to make it even worse, they have conducted studies and found that you have to feed these buzzards several servings of lead per day for years to have any type of toxic effect on them... just makes the libtards feel good that after killing those 73 squirrels today i am not contaminated that field with lead after the rotting corpses allow the boolits to make contact with the earth...
It is so stupid with the libtards. Look where battles were fought between north and south, Indian wars, BILLIONS of boolits all over the country. Maybe trillions! Lead is kind of inert in the ground. It oxidizes but even a civil war boolit found today only has a thin coating. It has not gone 50 miles to ruin water.
But they say a lost WW will kill a million animals.
Understand that the whole thing is back door gun control, no science at all, just feelings.
I have feelings and I feel Kalifornia should slide into the ocean after the shooters escape. I hope there is a string to NY under the earth.

[MtGun44]

Also note that all that lead - CAME OUT OF THE GROUND! Idiots.

Bill

[syh]

baby bell and makers mark don't use carnuba wax.
they use cheese wax with dye in it.

you are just going to have to find data for your 0-6 and the barnes bullet then go buy some powder.

I had a feeling this would be the case (re: the wax), though it's worked just great for me as-is.

and, I had a feeling this would be the case re: the bullet / load.



Is there a substantial difference between one 200gr bullet and the next? Especially between jacketed and non-Pb?

[GaryN]

First off, I don't own an '06. But from what I know it does well with 4895 and 150 grain bullets. With that heavy of a bullet and that long of a bullet (long bearing surface) I would think that something like 4350 or 4831 would be the powder of choice. So my recommendation would be to acquire a Barnes reloading manual or find some online data from Barnes and read it.

[Cane_man]

imo its about the bearing surface... copper, being lighter than lead, will require a longer bullet to achieve the same weight as a lead bullet, thus making the bearing surface larger... what i have seen with Barnes rifle bullets is that they load like a copper clad bullet than is 10% to 20% heavier... for example, the Barnes 150gr .308 loads similar to a copper clad 168gr .308, an so on...

[dakotashooter2]

Condors are garbage collectors about as bad as sharks. They have documented all kinds of junk in the stomaches of condors. Bottle caps, cigarette butts you name it. They are also dumb as a rock which reflects on their parenting skills. They are a niche bird that were on their way to extinction before their habitat was even settled by humans. I seem to remember that something like 80% of the birds in the wild were/are pen hatched and raised.

The other oddity is that .22 projectiles are/were exempt from the regulation. Due to their volume of use and small size it would seem they would be more likely to be eaten by birds than larger pellets.

[fcvan]

I grew up in Condor country and have hiked through the Sespe Gorge Condor Sanctuary several times. Truly huge birds that eat anything. I read where they did necropsy on a deceased juvenile condor. The found galvanized nuts and bolts, rusty nails, and other assorted trash, but no lead.

An article I read recently discussed how they would feed the birds cattle that had to be put down because of illness and or broken bones. Somewhere in the article they talked about the look of stupidity on the faces of the biologists who delivered the critter but then realized they didn't remove the bullet used to put down the cow. Priceless

[Shooternz]

There is the Barnes load data for the 30/06
http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/30-06SpringfieldWeb1.pdf

[cbrick]

Sorry for the rant but if I had to put up with kalifornia I would move.

Hey . . . I resemble that remark. :mrgreen:

Rick

[syh]

There is the Barnes load data for the 30/06
http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/30-06SpringfieldWeb1.pdf

I posted that in my OP.

[Bigslug]

I've done a lot of loading for the '06 and a fair amount with Barnes slugs. A couple pointers:

As for the solid copper slugs developing pressure differently, that's part of why the Barnes slugs have those grooves on them - to decrease the bearing surface to roughly what it would be for a jacketed lead bullet of similar weight. Yes, you need to work up a load as you would with any other new projectile, but you're not going to find massively different charge weights for Barnes than you would for Nosler, Sierra, etc...

My two powders of choice are Hodgdon H4350 and H4831 - SC (short cut) for both if you can get it (it meters better). Both are part of Hodgdon's "Extreme" lineup that don't care nearly as much about changes in ambient temperature.

In playing with bullet weights from 165 to 190 grains, I've found that the H4350 gave somewhat higher velocities, but the H4831 gave AMAAAAAZINGLY consistent velocities, which made it my choice when I was shooting in long range matches. Lately though, I've been stoking the hunting '06 with the 4350, as the gun in question is plenty accurate with it and given that, flat trajectory is more important over unknown distances.

I would also suggest you do some looking for a lighter weight Barnes before you sink a lot of time and effort into working up a load for the 200. The consensus between my friends and I who have hunted with them is that these slugs penetrate like at least one weight class higher, for example, the 150's penetrate like 165's or 180's; the 165's penetrate like 180's or 200's, etc... The short version is that there is NOTHING running around in California that is going to require the drilling power a 200 grain Barnes can dish out from an '06, so you might as well go with the flatter trajectory of a lighter slug. The San Bernardino rat deer I shot last fall took a 168 grain TTSX broadside - .30 cal entrance wound, about quarter-sized through the heart, and about a fifty cent to silver dollar sized exit wound. I'd have no qualms tapping an elk with one.

Great slugs, if expensive. Just remember that they are drills, not bombs.

[Lead Fred]

Me thinks commiefornia's only understands spanish.

The only reason they can not understand: SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED

[Huntducks]

SYN

Not a good choice in bullets for KA. deer now if your hunting elk your OK.

4350 RL-19 and 4831 are all good powders in a 06 remember barnes bullets needs to start about .050 off the lans.

I wish everyone of them dam buzzards would die the only thing that could get me to change my mind is if they ate Mt. Lions, our f&g is wasting millions on them, the last two they found dead had AA and C-cell bats inside, so I guess we should ban them.

[10x]

Between 1923 and 1973 there was an average of 20 million tonnes of tetraeythyl lead that came out of the tailpipes of automobiles per year. Tetraethyl lead is organically active and is absorbed directly into the food chain almost immediately. Not one study on lead poisoning in wildlife has accounted for or separated out tetraethy lead (3 grams per gallon) from leaded gasoline.
Nor has any study accounted for the millions of tonnes of lead sold every year used as a bace in lead paint until that was outlawed as well. Bullets and lead shot are just a small portion of the lead every citizen has put into the environement. Not to mention the metal lead is almost chemically inert as far as biological processes go.

[44man]

I have nothing against the new bullets, they work.
It is the stupid stuff about lead that also works.
Libtards ate lead paint from wood when young because it was sweet. Romans used lead to sweeten wine. Rome fell and I hope the libtards also fall.
It is not lead that makes the libtards so stupid, it was the start, it is weed and coke. Anything that ruins the brain and makes you bow to Obama for free tax payer money to buy more drugs.
My wife watched a woman with two carts of stupid food, all goodies, cookies and chips, gallons of pop, use a Gov card. I forget the name.
Then another buy the most expensive steaks that i would not even look at.
We are lost, we can not compete with tree huggers and those on the dole.
My vote is sunk in the deepest water, it is a joke.

[MT Gianni]

Montana Charlie posted in the past that CA was loosing Condors because they were interfering with nature by not letting whales die and rot on the beaches. They are preventing Condors from eating their natural food. That makes as much sense as anything else I have heard.

[swheeler]

Condor isn't half bad if you roast on a rack to let the grease drip out, serve with a gallon or two of wine.