Just a little advice for new casters

[dverna]

All of us started as you did. Most of us started decades ago. This can be both good and bad. Having 20 years of experience is much different than having one years experience 20 times over. The challenge you will face is knowing who to listen to and working out the facts/truth from old wives tales and pure BS.

There are many extremely talented people on this site. If you spend a month or two reading the stickies and threads that pertain to your casting endeavor you will be rewarded in two ways. First you will learn a lot about casting and, more importantly, you will begin to notice the guys who have real knowledge. They are the diamonds.

You have it easy compared to what most of experienced. We had no internet and learned this hobby "hands on". We read books and magazines and a few of us were lucky (or unlucky - see above) enough to have a mentor. With this site, you will get instant gratification. Answers to your queries will appear in hours if not minutes. But "stupid" questions get old quick. Reading the stickies (and the resources listed at the end of this post) avoids "annoying" questions that have been answered hundreds of times and you will get more and better help.

I have some opinions on equipment. Buy the best you can afford. I am NOT an expert so these are only my opinions. FYI, I had to start casting to afford to shoot but I had a school teacher who helped me. He was Bullseye shooter and my mentor. I started with a Lyman pot, Star lubrisizer, an H&G 10 cavity mold, a single cavity Lyman .30 cal mold - and 500 lbs of Linotype. These purchases nearly wiped out my savings. The only equipment I no longer own (35+ years later) is the H&G mold that, like a dufus, I sold when I stopped shooting BE and money got tight. Good equipment will last your life time and you have the pleasure of using it long after the few dollars saved are wasted on Big Macs. I could sell the Star for nearly 3x what I paid for it.

Molds - "Leementing" a mold a not something a new caster should spend their time doing unless saving money is absolutely necessary. Without a good mold, you will experience frustration - we all want that instant gratification. IMO Lyman/RCBS/Saeco molds are easier to learn with. They hold heat better and you will not have a consistent rhythm when you first start casting. Many people have good luck out of the gate with a Lee mold but the Lee's are more finicky. Keep in mind that what works for someone with a lot of experience may not be the best option for your first "first date". Be even more hesitant of some who had limited experience (I only have Lee's and they are GREAT!!!!) Even "OK" sex is better than no sex - if you don't know better.

Pots. I have only used ladle pouring so no comment. Invest in a thermometer. Temperature is a controllable variable - DO IT!

Sizing/Lubrication - All the systems work. Some are faster/easier. If using hard lubes, you will need a heater but I would not start there anyway.

Alloy - This will get me into hot water. DO NOT START with wheel weights. We have Zinc ones, Clip on (COWW) ones, and Stick on ones and who knows what other "junk" the manufacturers are adding to cut costs and cheapen the alloy. When you get some experience you can deal with sorting WW and hopefully avoid corrupting your alloy but even 'experienced' casters have had a *****. In fact, do not start with any "scrap", reclaim or Ebay stuff. My advice is to purchase a known alloy from someone like Rotometals (may be best supplier for small quantities) or Mayco (great prices on large quantities - I just purchased 2000 lbs from them). You will not go wrong with Lyman#2 or "hardball" alloy. Bear in mind I only shoot a couple of revolvers, mostly semi-auto pistols; and bolt action and lever action rifles for target shooting and fun. It will not be the best alloy if you have chamber issues in a revolver or want a hunting bullet. The objective is to produce excellent usable bullets as soon as possible with as little frustration as possible. Once you get addicted, you can play with alloy; and, when you fail, know it is not YOU! You will save a lot of money even with purchased alloy and have a better chance of success! With experience, you can save even more with "scrap" - just remember it is "scrap" for a reason.

Lastly, on alloy, the best scrap I ever used was range lead from our college indoor range. We were restricted to .22's and lead only CF. I used it to cut my Linotype and save money for "practice" loads. When you factor in the cost of WW, etc, do not forget to factor in the cost of fuel to find and retrieve your "treasure" and the 12 packs of Bud you need to bribe the tire shops. Having a nice looking wife or gf ask for WW can eliminate the bribe. In my case, there was not enough savings to offset the benefit of a known alloy being delivered to my door for $1.80/lb. Dealing with sorting through buckets of stuff with "chew"/spit/nails/etc and then smelting/alloying it wasn't worth it for me. YMMV

Where to start. By this I mean the bullet/gun. KISS. The .38 and .45 ACP have had more lead downrange for good reason. If you cannot cast a good load for them, you should find another hobby. One of the reasons they work well in cast is that they are low pressure rounds and also have a low velocity. You would not let your child start driving by getting them behind the wheel of a Corvette. Leave the high pressure, high velocity rounds for later. You will get there. If you must start with a .40 or .357 Sig etc - start with light loads

If you want to start with a rifle load, one of the best is the .30/30 another is the .35 Remington - they have smaller case capacity, many good bullet molds, and you can match commercial performance with cast. Stay with a .30 cal or larger. The alloys above are good to about 2200 fps with the right lube/bullet/sizing/load. But start with something in the 12-1400 fps range and work your way up. Have fun. Experience the joy of success and learning a new skill! I have seen people who want to start the journey by casting for a 5.56 AR15 (because they woke up one morning and saw ammo had doubled in price - if they could find it). That is the PHD of casting. It can be done, but it is likely a long and twisted road for a beginner. A journey that may end before they spend the night at the Holiday Inn Express.

Success breeds success. Wishing you good casting and FUN!!!!

Here are two essential reads:
http://www.lasc.us/IndexBrennan.htm
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm


Don

[MtGun44]

Good points, all.

I would only comment that for some, the good equipment is just not possible no matter how many
PB&J's they eat in the next year. In that case, the Lee stuff can be made to work. I like the comment
that "OK" sex is better than no sex, seems a halfway reasonable comparison. OK molds (Lees) are
better than not casting. Are the RCBS, Lyman and the custom molds better? OH, boy yes. BUT if
you cannot afford a $75 and UP mold, then you can still learn and shoot with a $30 one, but there will
almost certainly be some extra bumps in the road.

Also, IF (getting to be a bigger if all the time) you get ordinary clip on wheelweight alloy that is uncontaminated,
and I have bought it many times with success, but not in the last year or so, it will be just fine with
perhaps the addition of a touch of tin. No question that a certified new alloy is going to cut down
on your alloy related headaches. But again, if you can afford a nice new Supercab pickup, why in the
world would you buy a 10 yr old one with 120,000 miles on it? I could not afford my first new
car until I was 35 years old, so I faked it with a succession of cars starting with literal junk that I
rebuilt and slowly getting better stuff. Best way? Well, I was crapped out on the side of the
road a good bit, but I sure learned a lot. . . . So - fly first class or get the adventure package?

You and your bank account have to choose.

40+ yrs later, I am now at a stage of life where I can easily afford all the best loading tools, and love them,
but I started with a $10 Lee two cav mold, push thru (with a hammer!) sizer and pan lube kit from Lee
which is no longer made and made lots of good 9mm and .44 ammo over the years until I learned
to tell S#!& from shinola (and had a better budget) and started getting good tools.
Starting cheap can work - but better IS better.

Bill

[shadowcaster]

This is a good write up. But... When it comes to good, better, and best, it's like standing 20 women all in row and trying to choose. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Over the years I have acquired both high and low end equipment and have been very satisfied with all of the purchases that I've made. I did my homework and it works for me. Buying all high end stuff does NOT necessarily mean that it will function better or make better boolits.

When it comes to alloy.. From what I can see, the greater percentage of casters scrounge up scrap lead (newbies and old timers) mainly For financial reasons. Purchasing known verified alloy is not always easy or affordable for many. $1.80 delivered verses $.25 per pound for scrap, even figuring in the fuel and labor (which I find relaxing) for me is a no brainer. Scrap wins every time. By educating one's self, dealing with scrap lead is really not that difficult.

Where to start.. Rifle, pistol, & calibers, I totally agree with your methodology.

Bottom line... One size does NOT fit all.

Shad

[blackthorn]

Sometimes the journy is more satisfying than arival at the destination!!!

[Beau Cassidy]

I certainly agree that starting with less than the best in molds sets one up for failure.

[quilbilly]

People write a lot about Lee products as being not as good. I have been using Lee production bottom pour pots in my custom fishing jig business for 34 years and have found them to be a fine product. I replace them about every 4-5 years due to normal wear and tear after many thousands of jigs and pounds of lead. As for the Lee boolit molds, I may not necessarily like the selection but have not had the problems I am supposed to have. Once sized they produce a consistent boolit. Admittedly they are aluminum which is softer and not as durable as steel but the are the same material as my custom jig molds that I have been using since 1979 without replacement (and I had them made). The Lee molds seem to get up to speed significantly faster than than some of my steel Lyman molds too not that that matters much (2-3 minutes maybe).

[44man]

I have cast for better then 60 years, starting with sinkers and home made jig molds, then to boolits.
I have had all kinds of pots from cast iron on the stove to Lyman and RCBS. All had problems and many failed.
Now I use Lee pots with my ladle. Zero problems with them, I have two and want another to use different lead in each. I don't think there is a better pot no matter what you spend, the huge production pots not included here.
Lee push through size dies are the very best and so easy to lap to what is needed.
I make a lot of my own molds but I have all kinds, a LOT of Lee molds and the ONLY thing I hate is the thin sprue plate. They make good boolits.
I am cheap but I buy a mold for the boolit I want first. Many will be Lee.
With experience, any mold works the same for me and I do not need a book for each mold. It all works exactly the same. I will use two molds at once, one iron, one aluminum and I see no difference. Any mold I take from the drawer will work the exact same way. I have gone crazy and used three molds together, Lee, Lyman and my own.
It amuses me when someone says a mold needs such and such. Bring it here and I will dump a 20# pot without a reject. If you need a precision boolit get a good custom mold from our friends here, nothing better but it will cast the exact same as a cheap mold as far as how you cast. It will NOT need a 10* change in temps.
Bottom pour causes all the problems, I will NEVER give up a Lyman ladle.

[sthwestvictoria]

A great write up dverna.

I would add
lubrication and sizing:
If you do want to slug and see what your diameter your bore/groove diameter is, this is the best tutorial I have seen:
http://62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSlug.htm
with a good picture of the difference between bore, groove and lands.
This will help with which sizing die you need or even mold size.
Lee push through sizing dies come with a bottle of Lee Liquid Alox (LLA). Cast your boolits apply gas check (GC) with fingers if needed, cover with a small amount of LLA, mess free in a plastic bag. Let dry, size in the push through die which will size and crimp the GC, then apply a second sparing coat of LLA, let dry then shoot.
For lower velocities (where people should start to get some good results and encouragement) 1600fps and below the LLA will be fine and get you shooting. Later you can experiment with Recluses' 45/45/10 lube which is 45% LLA, 45% Johnson Paste Wax and 10%white spirit or pan lubing. pan lube using this method:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...n-t-afford-one
Then use the Lee .311 sizer to crimp on the GC and size the boolit (also neatens the lube in the grooves ready for loading).
My pan lube is Bee Wax, Petroleum Jelly, Lanolin (all cheap and easy to purchase locally), there are my pictures here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...e-for-44-250-k
Of course there are then commercial lube and many other home made recipes.

Record Keeping:
Save all your targets and record details to know what you have tried and what you have not. I found this really helped me organise my thoughts, all targets get hole punched and go into a ring file, this goes to the range as well so I know what elevation or windage works for which load.

[dverna]

Gentlemen,

I did not say you could not make good bullets with less expensive equipment. Heck, I have three Lee moulds and I am buying another one soon!!

I did NOT write this for guys who have years of experience and know what they are doing. NOT FOR ANY OF YOU who have earned your stripes - made most, if not all the mistakes, and learned the process and stuck with it. This is for the new folks - those who might wind up giving up after wasting time and money dealing with problems that could have been mitigated.

There isn't a Lymenting thread is there? But we see comments sending folks to the Leementing thread post(s) quite often when they have problems with their Lee molds. My suggestion was "Buy the best equipment you can afford". If that is a Lee - so be it. But be prepared that it has a higher likelihood of needing work/tweaking. Yes, you can buy a higher quality mold and have issues too. If you can afford a better mold you increase your chance of success without tweaking - but NOTHING insures success. Even a Mercedes can be a lemon.

I did not say NEVER use scrap. But even experienced casters have run into alloy problems. A new caster may have no idea if he has an alloy, mold, technique, temperature problem. Many of you lived during the "good old days" when all WW were clip on, and they were easy to get. We see posts of people who cannot get them or are happy paying $.50/lb for a bucket of mixed "stuff". Then ask. "How do I know if I have zinc ones?"

My first casts were with the H&G mold I mentioned using 100 % Linotype. I took a handful to my mentor (no he was not there when I cast them) and he said they looked OK but we needed to shoot them. I sized/lube up a thousand and loaded them up using his Star Universal. I did not have a loader - not even a single stage press - now that is poor. (Note: he told me to invest in the casting equipment/alloy and that I could use his reloader until I could buy a press. My reason for mentioning this is that sometimes you may have a buddy/relative who can help with equipment or share the cost of getting something a bit better). Anyway, the first few shots were at 25 yards, then we moved to the 50 yard line. No leading and no keyholes - yippee! He had brought his Ransom rest and we put a 50 round group downrange at the 50 yard line. Those 50 shots went into just over 3". Man was I a happy camper. So here was a new caster who through sheer luck (or maybe good equipment/alloy?) had success. That mold NEVER needed me to hold my tongue a certain way, or cast in the shade, or only at 70 degrees and 70% Relative Humidity. It just cast match quality bullets hour after hour.

I have seen "first cast" posts that are sad. Some are so bad I wonder if the posters have ever seen a commercially cast bullet. Yet some seem proud of their attempt and post here for comment/encouragement/advice/whatever. (Sure there are many "first cast" posts with excellent results too.) But it is obvious a few beginners experience hours and hours of trouble and frustration. Why? Are they all careless? Do none of them read anything before starting to cast? Are they all not too bright? I don't believe that!!!! But they get "suckered". Guys with decades of experience say, "I make great bullets with --------" but they do not tell about their journey to get there or how they define "great bullets". A "great bullet" for IPSC could be useless for Bullseye. Look at post 6. What the heck is a "consistent bullet"? Is he shooting pistol or rifle? Small caliber or large? Has the poster weighed 20 and determined spread and Standard Deviation? etc etc

Many new casters are not interested in the journey. They want decent bullets as quickly as possible to achieve their specific goals. If may be as simple a something that will hit a CAS target at 7 yards (almost any cr*p will do that if it does not lead) or a 5.56 NATO round for 3 Gun, or an inexpensive load with decent accuracy for training someone with a centerfire or whatever.

New (and some older) casters. If you cannot produce a bullet equal to a commercial cast bullet you have not succeeded - yet. It will come. As in real life, the guys who work harder will be more successful and the smarter ones will get there faster. The smart guys who work hard are the "Diamonds" I mentioned in the first post. These men make a better cast bullet than you can ever purchase. They are not "lucky". They have worked at developing their skills and learned from their failures/successes along the way. They can take an alloy or mold that is driving you nuts and make them work.

YOU NEED some of those failures/successes as part of your learning experience. My attempt in the first post was to minimize frustration and increase your enjoyment out of the gate.

[Edubya]

I think that I will bookmark this post and every time that I see one of those new casters that ask questions that have been asked a thousand times on this site, I'll just refer them to this post! Thanks.

EW

[Gtek]

In its many forms and paths, lying between necessity and art we find our way. Read and read grasshopper what the elders have so kindly left, there you will find many answers. You will have problems and when you do will have knowledge to base your reasoning and reaction. You can buy knowledge, you cannot buy experience! And after a while when you get pretty comfortable with it, there is going to be some things that arise that is going to drive you nuts. I call that very enjoyable. Gtek

[44man]

I find the biggest problem is to make casting too complicated so it confuses a new guy. Casting is a laid back process.
I have to wonder if speed is the culprit? Over large molds to make 6 at a time adds a new level of difficulty and is not for a beginner.
Cutting the sprue with gloves before it hardens to add speed.
A need to toss half the boolits back in the pot or to weigh every one only makes your casting speed a huge loss.
Just keeping a bottom pour spout working will cut your production in half.
All molds work the same! To say you need to hang your tongue over your left ear with one and the right ear with another means you are not casting right.
There are a billion posts on how to cast but it takes one line or 10 minutes with me at the pot.
The hardest thing when I teach is to have the guy turn the mold when tipping off the ladle. Many can not use one hand alone!
It is as simple as keeping a Billy club handy like an IHMSA friend did. He threatened his shooter with it and it hung from the spotting scope. Don't miss!
The very hardest thing for me is to tell just how easy it is but I can show it.
Experience counts but it just takes minutes to pass it on, not 50 years.
Just maybe the best advice is to RELAX. You do not have to run a two minute mile or have oxygen to breath.
It really is art, nobody paints a picture in a minute.

[shadowcaster]

dverna...
None of us are looking for an argument, or to stir the pot. But by your own words, you had to expect that you were going to ruffle a few feathers.
Alloy - This will get me into hot water. DO NOT START with wheel weights. It is also understood that your intentions were good and helpful.
My attempt in the first post was to minimize frustration and increase your enjoyment out of the gate. You made many good points, but many of your statements come across as finite and the only way to do things. We don't want to scare the new casters away with statements like
Beau Cassidy.. I certainly agree that starting with less than the best in molds sets one up for failure. , but instead to lead and to teach them.

I couldn't agree with you more about the wealth of knowledge on this sight. The diamonds you refer to as well as others here are an invaluable resource we have all come to depend on. I know it can be frustrating when the same old questions get asked, but the search feature is not always easy to use, and does not always produce satisfactory results. Starting a new post gives the beginner an almost one on one experience with those who have been there in their quest for knowledge.

This statement I feel, says a LOT.
44man.. I find the biggest problem is to make casting too complicated so it confuses a new guy. Casting is a laid back process. There is a learning curve here for sure, and there is much to be said for learning the techniques that will produce quality boolits that will satisfy the caster that made them. In the end each of us has to decide on our own level of quality and satisfaction, to either continue the journey or say.. this is not for me.

I will say it again and with the best intentions, Bottom line... One size does NOT fit all. To all the new casters, Welcome.. :-)

Shad

[44man]

Well said, welcome to all new casters. Nothing better.
But I can make one size fit! :lol: