Need some input on leading.

[cs86]

So I've casted a few batches of bullets and took them out shooting. using Lee 230gr rn tumble. Shooting out of a Kimber 1911. Using stright COWW lead.

First batch: sized to .451 and used straight Alox lube. seated bullet with hornady die that would seat and taper crimp at the same time. Leading seemed to started from very start of rifling and ran down the barrel.

2nd batch: sized to .451 and used straight Alox lube. seated bullet then taper crimped in 2 different steps. made sure the OD of bullet mouth after crimped was .473. Leading seemed the same as first time.

3rd batch: pulled bullets from casting that measure .452 and used mix of Recluse 45/45/10 lube. bought a taper crimp die for the seperate step and crimped mouth to .474. I think this leaded the worst of all leading the same way, starting from the beginning of the rifling and ran down the barrel.

I did take a few bullets, made dummy rounds and knocked the bullet out just to see what the measurement was. sometimes it stayed about .452 and sometimes it seemed to squeeze down to .451. Any thoughts? I was going to try the .453 bullets that droped from the mold and see if that helps, but i'm not so sure this will help.

[runfiverun]

it sure wouldn't hurt.

[oldandslow]

cs, 4/1/13

I have a bit of experience with your Lee mold and was able to turn .45 caliber rifling into a smoothbore in less than 20 rouinds (due to severe leading). As others elsewhere have noted the overwhelming reason for leading is too small a boolit to bore fit. There are a number of lesser issues like alloy type, lube type, boolit speed, etc. The standard advice is to first slug your barrel and then measure the slug with a micrometer. It sounds like a pain to do but in actuality it takes about five minutes. I usually use lead oval fishing sinkers (well oiled) run through the barrel.

Once you know the groove diameter (usually .451 with a .45) you usually size your boolits to at least 0.001-0.002" larger. I prefer 0.002" of a soft alloy like you have. Then check your boolit diameter before seating in a case and then pull the same boolit and recheck it to see if it gets squeezed down (swaged) below the diameters you need. If the loaded and pulled boolit looks good then load up a few and try them in your pistol.

Your's is a common problem and while it is frustrating at first it becomes a learning experience to help future reloading go more smoothly. I finally got tired of the tumble lube boolits from Lee (in 9mm and .45) and switched to a conventional lube groove mold from Accurate Molds. It drops the boolits at just the size I need (0.002-0.003" oversize) so no sizing is needed. Good luck.

best wishes- oldandslow

[cbrick]

This will explain a lot, read chapter 7 on leading.

From Ingot To Target (http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf)

I've shot that bullet with 7-8 BHN alloy and zero leading but it has to fit the bore.

Rick

[cs86]

Is there a chance that COWW could be to hard of an alloy. After skimming the chapter I didn't realize that the alloy could be to hard.

The barrel slugged at .450 if I remember right. I did use a micrometer. I wish I would of checked the groove depth. I plan on trying .453 this next weekend to see what happens.

[cbrick]

Air cooled clip-on WW should be fine though you could cut 50/50 with stick-on weights, I add 2% Sn to all of my WW. Absolutely yes an alloy can be too hard, in fact I would say more leading and poor accuracy is caused by too hard rather than too soft.

The groove diameter is the measurement your looking for, if you ran a soft slug through the bore and measured it at it's widest point you measured groove diameter. Think of a mirror image of the bore.

There is a very good chance that .453" boolits will make cs86 a happy camper. Depending on how large your mold casts shoot them as large as will chamber freely.

Now that you have downloaded the book I highly recommend reading the whole book, it is full of casting wisdom from cover to cover.

Rick

[MtGun44]

Unlikely to hurt to soften alloy by adding 50% lead. You may need to add a bit of
tin to help fillout. Also, understand that the TL is a marginal system, but it does work
if you get it all right, especially in moderate cartridges like the .45 ACP. You might try
double coating, too. Make sure you are absolutely delivering the boolit at .452 to your
barrel, sounds like there is an issue here, too. Too big is only a risk of failure to chamber,
too small is always a problem. TC as a separate step is crucial for reliable feeding.

Are you using a micrometer that reads to .0001" to measure? If a caliper, your measurements
could be off enough to cause the whole thing. There are many different mics available, but
I have found that the Fowler brand, sold by Enco Tools online is a good serviceable mic for
usually well under $40.

Bill

[cs86]

I have a RCBS micrometer that measure to .0001. Would there ever be a problem with having your case sizing die size to far down causing the bullet to squeeze to hard into the case?

[mdi]

If you're leading the full length of the barrel, I would say that for some reason the bullet is not sealing the bore for the entire trip down the barrel. Mebbe too hard; bullet not obturating. Mebbe too small to begin with, or bullet being swaged down when seated (pull and measure a couple loaded rounds). And mebbe the charge is to low, combined with bullet hardness, and the bullet doesn't obturare (bump up) to fill/seal the bore...

[runfiverun]

I have a RCBS micrometer that measure to .0001. Would there ever be a problem with having your case sizing die size to far down causing the bullet to squeeze to hard into the case?

it's common for this to happen.
especially if you use a lee fcd.
I have had times where I had to use a seating die from a different cartridge to seat the oversized boolit the gun needed.

[cs86]

I've had another thought to test if the .453 still causes leading. I might try and soften the bhn mix. If my batch of COWW is to hard to form to the barrel how much pure lead would I need to add to a 18 lb. batch of COWW to soften it up to try out? Would a pound be a good start? I have no way to test the current bhn.

[cbrick]

I scanned back thru this thread and either missed it or you never said what load your using. This could be a key to the leading but do one thing at a time, shoot the .453 boolits and see if things are better. If you change multiple things and it's better, worse or the same you will have no idea why. After trying the .453 the alloy could be cut as much as 50% with soft lead but again, what is your load.

You said your barrel slugged at .450" and while that is possible it seems odd, I've never seen one measure that small. More likely .452 and I still think your biggest problem is the 451" sizing.

Rick

[cs86]

I was running 5.0 gr of W231. I did 4.9 gr with the .452 loads. I need to get another slug and test again. This last time I slugged it I only slugged the throat, I wasn't confident with the slug though. I normally make the slugs by melting them down into a fired brass case then knock it out. I made sure I used part of a stick on wheel weight so it was soft lead. It seemed to go in real easy and I'm wondering if the slug was big enough.

Last night out of curiosity I ran a .451 and .452 bullet into the barrel just past the lip that the case mouth rests against. About 1/4 of an inch. I shined a light from the opposite end to try and see if there was any light shinning around the rifling edges, and there was. Not sure this is a good test but makes me believe either my bullet is to small or alloy is to hard, which has basically been determined by everyone else also.

[cbrick]

No one except you has determined that your alloy is too hard. Straight clip-on WW air cooled will be about 11-12 BHN with 2% Sn added. I shoot a lot of that because it's what I have the most of and it works well except with powder puff loads, your load at 5.0 gr of 231 should be fine. Hodgdon calls for 4.3 to 5.3 gr with a 230 gr lead bullet.

Shoot the unsized .453" bullets and report back. Your boolit is too small.

Rick

[captaint]

If you have 18 lbs of WW alloy, you can add 8 or 9 lbs of soft(er) lead to soften up your mix. That's what I always use for 45ACP & 38 wadcutters. Works great. Mike

[prs]

That TL452-230-1R gave me some grief with fill out even with 2% tin. Those little TL grooves are detail and H377 is in the details.

;-)

prs

[runfiverun]

rick.
I was basically shifting all his numbers over, from 450 to 451 and from the 451 suggesting the 453.

[cs86]

I took another slug measurement and found out that I have an oval barrel. One side is sizing at .450 and the other side is at .4515. I will be testing the .453 this weekend. Hope they work.

[cs86]

I loaded up the (70) .453 boollits and went shooting. I measured each one to make sure I didn't have a small one in the batch. I ended up with some leading that streaked down the barrel, but not as bad as the last time. My mold seemed to cast between .452 and .453 and I'm wondering if there is a way to open it up enough to cast to .454. Its an aluminum lee mold. Does anyone think this would help? Would polishing it open it enough or is this a bad idea?

One thing I also noticed is that I seated them a little deeper this time. I ended up having 3 bullets that jammed by catching on the case mouth. With those 3 bullets I pulled each one and took a measurement of the boolit outside dia. (2) of them appeared to swadge down to .452 and one was at .453. This also happened when testing .452 boolits when pulling a few. It seems as though the boolit is swadged down by .001. Any thoughts?

[runfiverun]

taper crimp will do that.
were they any particular brand of brass?

you can polish out a mold to be round.

[cs86]

I just used a bag of random brass. No paticular brand.