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View Full Version : New and have some questions sbh slugged



whelen fan
03-30-2013, 07:58 PM
Good day.

I am new to this forum and somewhat overwhelmed with all the things one needs to know to do this right! I have cast thousands and thousands of bullets for my 45 acp in my 4 cavity H&G mold and I size them and lube them with soft wax, load them to ~750 fps and go shooting. No leading, no issues, all good!

I recently bought a ruger super black hawk in 44 mag. I got a bucket of hard cast .429 240gr swc that have a hard blue wax and kind of look like a keith bullet except the base has a bevel, not flat base. I loaded up 50 at ~1000fps and went shooting. I also loaded up some "keith" loads at ~1450fps and shot 15 of those.

I got home and there was SO MUCH lead in the barrel. I cleaned it out with chore boy and squeaky clean again. I noticed the bore was a bit rough (my ruger rifle was also this way) but I again loaded 50 at ~1000fps and another 15 "keith" loads. I went to the range again and same thing happened. So I cleaned the barrel really good again, went online and did some reading.

I read that hard cast at slow speed may not obdurate fully and hard wax is no good. I read you should slug your bore and cylinder mouth which I did. My bore measures .4285" and has even pressure pushing the slug down out the forcing cone. My cylinder mouth measures .4315". So I measured some of the hard cast bullets I have and they measure .4285-.4290. I then read that you should fire a box of jacketed bullets to smooth out the bore somewhat and this will help also.

I would also like to get a 3 or 4 cavity keith mold (an original design with a flat base).

I apologize for the long post and questions.

Is my barrel leading because the hard cast bullets I have use hard wax? Have beveled bases? Are barely bigger than my bore? Are not obdurating? Because I have a rough bore?

Where do I go to order a mold like I'm looking for? What diameter should they be cast at taking the info I posted about my slugged measurements into account? What diameter should I size them at?
Should I try firing 50 jacketed bullets, cleaning after each shot to try and "smooth" out the barrel?

Slightly different question. I would also like to purchase a marlin 1894 (pre remlin) in the near future to also shoot 44 mag in the rifle. Would work dandy for black bear over a barrel. Will the Keith SWC work in the lever action? Is there a very good bullet someone would recommend that functions flawlessly in the lever gun and would work for black bear and white tail?

I do have a limited "fun" budget and while I'm sure there are custom mold makers out there that make $200 or more molds those are not in my price range.

I again am sorry for the long post but I thought I know how to cast and shoot lead (again zero problems in my 1911) but apparently I have no clue.

I would appreciate any advice you could provide to me.

Thank you

Cherokee
03-30-2013, 08:51 PM
The hard bullets are smaller than your throats but about the same as your barrel. I would look for bullets of 430 or 431 of the same alloy, or go softer alloy if you can. You want bullets about cylinder throat size. I use a "hard wax" type lube and don't have leading because the bullets fit the gun correctly. The Lyman 429421 is a good mold (I use it) but not exactly "Keith". I'm sure RCBS & others have comparable molds, I'm just not familiar with them. SWC's (Keith) do not always feed well in Marlins, depends on the gun I think. For reliability, I would use a rounded flat nose design. Just my thoughts....

Edubya
03-30-2013, 09:13 PM
Try pan lubing some without sizing. Do not over crimp! Try some slower powder, gives time to engage lands and to obdurate. Maybe, soften that lube a slight bit. You didn't say where the lead was starting. If it's in the beginning it may well be the powder is too hot and the boolit is not completely in the lands when the pressure peaks (creates gas burning), if it is near the muzzle it would be running out of lube before exiting.

EW

462
03-30-2013, 09:29 PM
Whelen fan,

The boolits are too skinny. See if you can find some that are .001" over cylinder throat dimension, or at least .432". Store bought boolits are generally too skinny, too hard, and have a too hard lube. Start with a fatter boolit, first, as fit is most important.


The Lyman 429421 is a good mold (I use it) but not exactly "Keith".

Huh? The 429421 is an Elmer Keith design. Lyman has fiddled with it, but it's still an original Keith.

whelen fan
03-30-2013, 10:36 PM
Try pan lubing some without sizing. Do not over crimp! Try some slower powder, gives time to engage lands and to obdurate. Maybe, soften that lube a slight bit. You didn't say where the lead was starting. If it's in the beginning it may well be the powder is too hot and the boolit is not completely in the lands when the pressure peaks (creates gas burning), if it is near the muzzle it would be running out of lube before exiting.

EW

Leading was the entire length of the barrel. 7.5“.

I used 11gr w571 for the 1000fps load and 20gr 2400 for the keith load.

uscra112
03-31-2013, 12:06 AM
Boolit absolutely must be bigger than the cylinder throats. Other wise you'll get gas cutting before the boolit ever gets into the bore. Then there's a small cloud of vaporized lead preceding your boolit into the barrel, and that's getting ironed onto the bore, along with lead melted in the flame channels.

Obturation has to take place in the chamber (actually before the base has left the case) if it's to do you any good at all. In my experience, trying to make those "hard cast" boolits obturate takes 20,000 psi or more, so I'd give that up as a lost cause in your Ruger. Melt 'em down with some soft lead and cast some better ones that fit your throats.

whelen fan
03-31-2013, 12:01 PM
Thank you for the replies. Any comments on what bullet to pick from a mold maker that would work well in a marlin and sbh? Rnfp 260-270gr? Mihec 434-640 or something from accurate mold? Would appreciate some advice.

rockrat
03-31-2013, 12:10 PM
I would think the Accurate 43-265N would be just about perfect for you, or the Saeco #430, both 265 rnfp.

whelen fan
03-31-2013, 12:30 PM
I would think the Accurate 43-265N would be just about perfect for you, or the Saeco #430, both 265 rnfp.

Thank you for the post. I was not able to find a 43-265N on the Web page. Is this something they no longer make?

gray wolf
03-31-2013, 12:30 PM
You got all good advise so far, so maybe I'm just posting to get my post count up.
You need to size your bullet for a snug fit in your cylinder throats, that would be a start.
A decent lube would also help, sounds like your bullets are just a tad to small.
Are you getting leading in the cylinders ? or just the barrel, any lead splash in the frame window ?

whelen fan
03-31-2013, 12:52 PM
No leading in the cylinder mouth and no lead splatter in the frame. The hard cast fall right through the cylinder as do .430 300gt hornady xtp I have laying around.


You got all good advise so far, so maybe I'm just posting to get my post count up.
You need to size your bullet for a snug fit in your cylinder throats, that would be a start.
A decent lube would also help, sounds like your bullets are just a tad to small.
Are you getting leading in the cylinders ? or just the barrel, any lead splash in the frame window ?

gray wolf
03-31-2013, 03:08 PM
The jacketed bullets will always ( most times ) fall through, that ells you what the cylinder throat are not. Copper is a different Animal. Tap one of your lead bullets on the nose (easy does it )
and bump it up a bit. get a snug fit in the cylinder throats and measure it. May not be accurate but will show how off you may be. Ruger S B H are known to have .432 in the cylinder throats,
not always but very common.

stubert
03-31-2013, 07:50 PM
Sounds like you have a batch of Lazercast boolits, I had a Super black hawk and could never get them to shoot good, they were to hard, to small, and bevel base, Go to a softer, bigger boolit, 12 - 15 bhn. I called lazercast and was told the alloy they use is 26 bhn.

Piedmont
04-01-2013, 12:33 AM
Whelan Fan, Look in your personal message box.

44man
04-01-2013, 08:12 AM
Store bought can have a funny alloy, seems to just rub off. Combine with a hard lube and a BB and nothing is any good.
Hard in itself does not lead a bore, I water drop WW boolits for all of my revolvers.
Under throat will not lead a bore either and there is no sense going over throat and turning the gun into a size die. A thumb push through the throat is enough.
The fact is I shoot WD, WW boolits out of my SBH as small as .429" out of .4324" throats and a .430" groove but I like .431" to .432" best. I get zero leading. All are accurate, the 1-5/16" group I shot at 200 yards was with a .429" boolit.
I have taken an alloy to 30 BHN during tests with a Keith and cut groups by 2/3's with no leading.
It is not all boolits because I have shot thousands of Cast Performance, Buffalo Bore and Double Tap boolits with no leading. But some of the others called hard cast did strange things. I still think it is what they are made from.
In the end it is best to make your own and use a good lube.
I would not even melt those boolits to cast others, I would toss a few in each batch to get rid of them slowly.