Richard Lee's "system" of matching cartridge pressure to metal pressure.

[8mmFan]

How does it work out for you, if you use this methodology?

If you're not familiar with it, he advocates using a load that gives about equal pressure to the hardness/pressure of the bullet alloy, as measured by the Lee Bullet Hardness Tester. He also gives a method to interpolate cast data from jacketed bullet data. It's nothing if not fascinating.

I think it might explain why my attempts at casting for rifle calibers (8mm Mauser and 7mm Remington Mag) have yielded terrible results. The Tester indicates that my bullet alloy was very soft. And after I did the test and saw the results, it occurred to me that I may have made my bullets out of nearly pure lead. I was also using pistol powder. I believe it was Green Dot, but it was before winter and my load data is in the other room.

My 45 acp loads have worked out great. But my attempt with my rifles was awful and now I think I know why.

Anyway, just wondering what the old hands here think of the method, and if anyone uses it.

8mmFan

[DrCaveman]

Well Im no old hand but ive learned some things about that methodology. It was my cast boolit gospel before i found this site.

Others will explain things way better, but suffice to say that one can handily exceed the pressures and velocities listed in the lee manual with the corresponding alloy. And can avoid leading while achieving excellent accuracy.

Boolit fit is more important than hardness

[runfiverun]

lets see I take the bhn and times it by 1422 then divide it by 3 that gives me a pressure of about 6,000 with monotype so I can shoot my rifle 500 fps.
no?
I think it means if I use red dot at 40,000 psi i get 1500 fps or if I use 4895 at 40,000 psi I get 1900 fps.
so 40 divided by 14 is about 30 bhn is that right? where do I get 30 bhn lead?
I suck at math [and picture taking too] i'll just do it my way, and make some boolits and go shoot them.

[338RemUltraMag]

I think it is a guide line for newbs to "get it right" there are things people do on this site with lead that I thought was impossible. Listen to these guys, them is good peoples

[sthwestvictoria]

I have recently purchased his book and have been working my way through his suggestions. One thing that is not addressed is plain base versus GC base boolits. I had a thread about running plain base pistol boolits in the 35 whelen, I realised with the help of members I was trying to push these too fast and too hard, with winding back I'm starting to get some groups.
On the other hands I have used ACWW with GC, pencil testing hardness 12BHN to faster than what Mr Lee would suggest I can with no leading and good accuracy. I believe they are a good fit, moderate velocities around 1600fps using a slower powder and a tenacious lube.

[dromia]

At best an overcomplicated flight of fancy by Mr Lee.

If casting and shooting boolits was so formulaic then we'd have found it years ago and this forum would be a shadow of its current self.

Maybe he was trying to give some intellectual credence to back up Lee's hit and miss products?

[JeffinNZ]

It just doesn't stack. Do the numbers on rimfire ammo the bullets of which are about 6.5 BHN.

[NVScouter]

I think his writing are the only worthwhile part of that book. I read it more as a intro to powder pressure curves/boolit shearing.

But honestly it's the worst of all my load books for data.

[357shooter]

How does it work out for you, if you use this methodology?

If you're not familiar with it, he advocates using a load that gives about equal pressure to the hardness/pressure of the bullet alloy, as measured by the Lee Bullet Hardness Tester. He also gives a method to interpolate cast data from jacketed bullet data. It's nothing if not fascinating.

I think it might explain why my attempts at casting for rifle calibers (8mm Mauser and 7mm Remington Mag) have yielded terrible results. The Tester indicates that my bullet alloy was very soft. And after I did the test and saw the results, it occurred to me that I may have made my bullets out of nearly pure lead. I was also using pistol powder. I believe it was Green Dot, but it was before winter and my load data is in the other room.

My 45 acp loads have worked out great. But my attempt with my rifles was awful and now I think I know why.

Anyway, just wondering what the old hands here think of the method, and if anyone uses it.

8mmFan
I've tried it and in handguns it's absolutley useless. I also tried it in a few rifles and found it to be useless there too.

[cbrick]

There is a big problem with using that method and it's because BHN is only one factor and not necessarily the most important one. You can have several completely different alloys that all measure the same BHN, the difference is in the malleability and not the hardness which are two different things. One alloy can be high in Sb and 22 BHN (lino) and be brittle, another alloy could be lower Sb and higher Sn and far more malleable and still be 22 BHN via heat treating or quenching. The two alloys will react to the pressure of being fired completely differently even though they are both 22 BHN.

I use BHN as one measure to keep my loads uniform BUT I compare my BHN all from the same 800 pounds of the same alloy. If I change alloys my BHN numbers from previous loads could possibly be useless.

The formula of multiplying the BHN by 1422 isn't Richard LEE's, it was published in Hand Loader a few decades ago and it's intended purpose is as a guide, not gospel but a guide to "minimum" pressure needed to obturate the alloy and seal the bore. Somehow over the years some people have misinterpreted it to mean a maximum pressure which is incorrect. Keep in mind that obturation isn't simply expanding the diameter of the boolit but also it's ability to back fill the trailing edge of the rifling (malleability) and maintain the seal. The balancing act is using an alloy that is tough enough to withstand the pressure of a given load and yet malleable enough to back fill. With most reasonable loads that's really not all that difficult or few of our loads would work.

That formula is something that can be fun to play with as long as you consider it a guide and nothing more than one more thing to look at.

Rick

[Tonto]

The system is good food for though but in the velocity/hardness/will it lead game I think bore condition is usually never talked about. Fit is it......

[357shooter]

The formula a multiplying by 1422 has proven useful at times. Bullets to hard to obturate, or pressures to low to obturate may not lead. But if leading does occur, obturation often resolves the issue. It's not the only thing that may fix the leading, but it's effective and easy to achieve in many cases. For example: increasing a light/medium load by a few tenths of a grain is within the skillset of every handloader.

[HangFireW8]

When I got started, I followed Lee's formula to the letter and got good results.

Then I ignored it completely (first by accident and then on purpose), and got good results.

For beginners it is a good way ballpark what BHN you'll need and what pressures that alloy needs to obturate. Once you get some experience and you know how your personal collection of alloys can do, you can pretty much ignore it.

[Harry O]

I have found that it is a great place to start. When I follow those rules (which are founded in structural engineering principles), I have virtually NO problems in getting a bullet and load that work. I can exceed those rules, but the more I exceed them, the more problems I have in getting a load that works. It is especially a problem with high power rifle loads since they work at higher pressures. I would rather stick with them and spend time shooting than trying to work out the problems.

[44man]

I am going with Rick on this, the most common sense answer. I also hate BHN numbers.
To say you need a certain BHN for a certain pressure is not in the cards.
It took me forever but I shoot PB boolits best in my big bore revolvers then I thought possible a few years ago. I even contacted Lee about the .475 boolit with no gas check until I found they are a waste of money. The boolit shoots soooo good without a GC. I now make all of my molds PB.
All I use is WD, WW metal.
There is no way to read about what you need, only shooting on your own will prove anything. You will be amazed at how even a softer alloy will perform at high pressures. You will also be amazed at how a very hard boolit will shoot at low pressures.
I just need to write a book but it will just be a few words---SHOOT THE STUFF!

[Doc Highwall]

I agree with cbrick said in post #10 but what also is not mentioned is bullet fit. I shoot 30:1 alloy with a gas check to over 2000 fps with no leading but my best accuracy is between 1750 - 1900 fps. I might be anal in my search for accuracy but my record 5 shot groups are .305" at 100 yards and 1.610" at 300 yards. I admit I am shooting Remington 40X chambered for 7.62 NATO but that is no excuse for not trying for greater consistency/repeatability.

What I am saying is even with a poor alloy you can get reasonably good accuracy as long as you have a good bullet fit, but with a great alloy and a poor fit accuracy can be non- existent.

[felix]

Ideally, the dynamic fit of the boolit to the gun should be ZERO tolerance. That is all there is to it. The question is: How do you know what happens dynamically? The target is the only practical, at home, answer. If the groups are fine, so be it, which makes all the posts above correct and points to 44Man's "book" being the bread and butter post. ... felix

[cbrick]

I agree with cbrick said in post #10 but what also is not mentioned is bullet fit.


Yep, I should have mentioned fit. Sometimes I try too hard to avoid thread drift but yes, proper fit in the firearm is the single most important part of accuracy and a lead free bore.

Rick

[C.F.Plinker]

Mr. Lee's method establishes a maximum chamber pressure which is 10% below the pressure at which the boolit will start to obturate. As Cbrick stated above you need obturation in order to seal the bore. The boolit has to be soft enough to get the obturation needed to seal the bore but strong enough to withstand the forces required to spin the boolit without shearing the lead where it engages the rifling.

The next time you read through these sections in Mr. Lee's book highlight the assumptions and qualifications he has included. Implicit in these is the assumption that the pressure and velocity changes with respect to changes in powder charge are the same for cast boolits and j-word bullet and that the cast boolit will have the same pressure and velocity as the j-word bullet at the maximum load for the j-word bullet. Look up loading data from the same source (e.g. Lyman) for cast boolits and j-word bullets using the same powders and charges to see if this is true. If you are mathematically inclined use the loading data to see of the slopes of the velocity-charge and pressure-charge curves are the same for both boolits and bullets. If they are you are good to go. If not, you may want to redo your calculation using the slopes you came up with.

As always check several sources, start low and work up in small increments checking for signs of overpressure at each level.

[Pilgrim]

I tried to make that formula work (BHN × 1422) for a number of years. I saw it in Handloader when it was first published and thought I'd found "the solution". It had to be gospel. After all it was printed in Handloader so it had to be right. Well, after getting results that consistently confused me since they didn't follow the "rules". I decided to make up my own "rules" and go from there. My rules are as follows - Number one rule is start with a boolit that is no less than .002 over groove diameter. Number two rule is to use a GC for all rifle boolits. Number three rule is to use FWFL (or its commercial equivalent) for all rifle loads. NRA formula is OK for pistol loads or low velocity rifle loads. Number four rule is BHN might be a problem AFTER you have made sure #1 thru #3 have been satisfied. Number five rule is barrel condition. Smooth even barrels make most problems smaller. Rough bores sometimes shoot very accurately. Other times they lead miserably and shoot like a single BB shotgun. Copper fouling can raise hell with CB success so a really clean barrel helps to make other problems smaller. After those five rules, everything else is a bit of a crapshoot. I generally like to find one load for each rifle and stay with that single load. Most of my rifles are for hunting big game hence velocity is essential. That makes all of the above factors "critical". For example my .358 Win. load is a BHN 15 boolit, GC'd, lubed with LBT at a velocity of 2430 fps (~12' instrument -Oehler chronograph). HUH? That result simply doesn't fit the "formula"! Pick a set of rules for yourself. Follow those. Go to other solutions only when YOUR rules fail to give you the results you want/need. Change ONLY one parameter at a time as you work to solve your problems. BTW - I'm a bit lazy so I don't go to extremes like water dropping, weighing boolits, etc. I insist on perfect appearing boolits. If they aren't perfect, especially the base, then good accuracy without leading is tough and solving those problems requires "work". I'm allergic to work unless it's absolutely necessary to get the results I want. FWIW...Pilgrim

[462]

Used the formula for some early handgun load developement, but the results showed that it was a waste of my time, efforts, and components.

That said, if someone is inclined to try the formula, please do so. But, in the end, it all comes back to the all-important "Fit is king".

[8mmFan]

Holy Castboolits! Thanks for all of the responses, guys. Wasn't what I expected, but that's why I asked... I figured that the real world experience here would essentially confirm the process as sound. About 3rd of you agree with it, but 2/3 of you don't.

I'll just keep casting and shooting until I get it right, using the hardness tester as just another tool. Thanks again, and have a great day. 8mmFan

[Doc Highwall]

The hardness tester has it's value. It will enable you to determine the hardness but not the alloy composition.
If you have lots and lots of wheel weights and melt say 100 pounds and use it to make your alloy, check what it’s hardness is along after you melt it into ingots, with the actual indent size and record it.
Then check the hardness of your alloy and record the hardness and indent size again. This will be useful when you go to make another batch or to change the hardness of your alloy.

Just remember to write down every thing and keep in in a safe place.

[rintinglen]

^Not in a shed--with a leaky roof.

[fecmech]

I'm glad I never read it when I started casting, it would have made problems for me.

[DrCaveman]

I'm glad I never read it when I started casting, it would have made problems for me.

Interesting observation. I think it also led me in sort of the wrong direction at first, and because it came from a published, long-standing player (Lee Precision) in the world of cast boolits, i took it as uber-reliable and something of an end-all. How things have changed.

the quick and ready answers i found here contradicted the Lee theory at worst, and expanded upon it at best. Then my application of the techniques and general approaches provided by these guys showed me that CASTBOOLITS has far more current and useful information about how to make a lead projectile fly at 2000+ fps with deadly accuracy.

Consequently i regained my college-borne attitude of questioning anything IN PRINT. Then this cynicism moved along to make me question SOME of the answers/solutions provided here, by non-published sources who may or may not know what they are talking about. Noone here has ever steered me 'wrong' exactly but one has to choose which train of thought they are going to follow.

Like a fella here likes to say, separating the wheat from the chaff is invaluable. And easier said than done.

Mostly wheat here, in my experience though. To 8mmfan, if your path goes anything like mine has, you will find alloy manipulation/hardness to be an issue which wont really rear its head for a while. So many other issues need to be tested and sorted out first. I finally have just settled on one alloy for everything, and adjust boolit size, seating depth, lube and powder charge to find my sweet spot. Im only about a year and a half in to casting.

Maybe in the next few months, if i can finally settle on some really promising loads, i will tinker more with alloy, but for now that is the least of my concerns. Fwiw my general purpose alloy runs about 15 bhn, air cooled. Works without leading from 500 fps 38 spl loads up to 2100 fps 30-30 loads, as long as fit is right.

[303Guy]

DrCaveman, do you know exactly (or more or less) what your alloy composition is?

I did a test today with the idea that alloy strength effects how well a boolit upsets to fit the bore and how it over-upsets to slump the nose. Boolit base deformation is also a consideration (especially for me since I don't want to use gas checks and I want 2000 fps!)

[geargnasher]

Richard and John Lee's method of loading to a peak pressure that is just higher than the yield strength, but below the ultimate compressive strength of a given alloy in a given gun actually works to quickly achieve an accurate load, and works reliably. I've tried it with numerous alloys in just about every gun I own, to very good effect assuming that static and dynamic fit is at least decent. I'd go so far to say that it's actually just about foolproof, which can be a valuable thing to a newbie.

HOWEVER, I find it just about useless for anything other than plinking loads, and have made a practice of totally ignoring it. Anybody that shoots pure lead or mild lead/tin alloy with black powder knows better than to try to limit pressure to ultimate compressive strength.

FIT is King, particularly dynamic fit.

I routinely load to three times the ultimate compressive strength of my alloys in rifles and when things are right, I get stellar results. They DO have to be right, though, and making them so is a lot more tricky than using Lee's method.

Gear

[303Guy]

I routinely load to three times the ultimate compressive strength of my alloys in rifles and when things are right, I get stellar results.

That is in line with a theory of mine - that the pressure needs to be low enough not to slump the nose but perhaps should be high enough to obturate the boolit to just before the ogive. Anyway, I'm still working on it. I somehow have to determine alloy strengths.

[44man]

Pilgrim has said it, I am also allergic to work and if I had to do real work to make my guns shoot I would buy ammo.
Then it hit me yesterday when my friend bought a S&W .500 he found for a good price. He said factory loads are $60 for 20 rounds. We can take that to 12 to 15 cents a shot instead of $3.
He is coming to cast with my mold but he can't find brass yet so we will shoot JRH out of it. Those are 10 cents a shot.
Boolits are and always will be best, just a little work to start, then it gets so easy you can get as lazy as I am.

[Doc Highwall]

One thing in the LEE book but again he does not come out and state it is, if you look at the section with cast bullets for the 30-30, 308, 30/06 is the velocities you are able to achieve by changing the burning rate of the powder.

Here on cast boolits it has been mention many times about using a slower burning powder with a long barrel to get higher velocities with a soft alloy.

[shredder]

Boolit fit is more important than hardness

Pure gold there friend, pure gold.

[DrCaveman]

DrCaveman, do you know exactly (or more or less) what your alloy composition is?

I did a test today with the idea that alloy strength effects how well a boolit upsets to fit the bore and how it over-upsets to slump the nose. Boolit base deformation is also a consideration (especially for me since I don't want to use gas checks and I want 2000 fps!)

303guy

My best description of the alloy is: started with about 100 lb COWW. Added prob 1 lb of 50/50 solder while smelting. Have recovered maybe 50% of boolits made with that original alloy, and mixed with new ingots made from magnum shot. Also a decent amount of recovered 22lr boolits and jacketed range scrap. Pretty randomized at this point.

I add a little more 50/50 solder when the moulds aren't filling out after temp is reached. So I think I am back pretty close to WW +1-2% tin, due to the antimony in the magnum shot and pure lead from various sources mentioned. I really do need to test the hardness again to see where I am actually at. This won't tell me the toughness of course, but will give me an idea.

I'm reading your other thread with interest. Fwiw I haven't yet been able to approach 2000 fps with accuracy without a gas check. But I also haven't dove into paper patching yet. I have a few twisted up, sitting on my loading bench, saying "shoot me"

[NVScouter]

The other bit is this:

So Mr.Lee has this awesome solution that works on everything (many claims like this in the book), and he wrote his own reloading book with lots of talk about cast. He is also one of the major suppliers of boolit molds in the world. Why isnt that data in your book? There are more references to Lyman molds then LEE molds...............

[Doc Highwall]

LEE started by making basically entry level reloading equipment that a person who did not have a lot of money could afford to get into reloading. They have expanded a lot since then and to help promote his reloading equipment, he came out with his book that contains data from other manufactures.

LEE has added to his book by giving us the math as to how he comes to these conclusions regarding pressure for light loads.

[8mmFan]

"I routinely load to three times the ultimate compressive strength of my alloys in rifles and when things are right, I get stellar results. They DO have to be right, though, and making them so is a lot more tricky than using Lee's method."

WOW!!!!!!!!!!! Is that only with a gas check?

Sounds like slow burners and long barrels is a good combo. My Yugoslav M48 bolt action 8x57 has a 23.25 inch barrel, I believe. Not super long, but I've no doubt we'll get some good cast loads out of her. She is pure Black Death on muleys and coyotes, but so far only w jacketed bullets. I am mainly casting for practice ammo with my 45, and practice ammo for this and one other rifle. Really want to take a deer this fall with a cast bullet from this rifle.

Thanks for the great insight, all of you. 8mmFan

[Larry Gibson]

Richard and John Lee's method of loading to a peak pressure that is just higher than the yield strength, but below the ultimate compressive strength of a given alloy in a given gun actually works to quickly achieve an accurate load, and works reliably. I've tried it with numerous alloys in just about every gun I own, to very good effect assuming that static and dynamic fit is at least decent. I'd go so far to say that it's actually just about foolproof, which can be a valuable thing to a newbie.

HOWEVER, I find it just about useless for anything other than plinking loads, and have made a practice of totally ignoring it. Anybody that shoots pure lead or mild lead/tin alloy with black powder knows better than to try to limit pressure to ultimate compressive strength.

Gear

Agree 100%, especialy the enboldened part.

Larry Gibson

[w0fms]

I'm glad I found this thread. I recently picked up his book and found it to be an entertaining read. However, the little bit I've done so far with cast boolits and some of my training as an engineer made me think he's a little... well.. opinionated.. I didn't buy the premise of the formulas. Still it is probably the most entertaining of all of the reloading books I've ever read. :) It did make me think in terms of pressure and not just BHN so I suppose that was a good exercise in and of itself.

[303Guy]

... cast boolits and some of my training as an engineer ...
w0fms, would you mind joining me on my thread on matching alloy strength and pressure with your engineering training? I'm sure you can give us better insight. It was this thread that motivated me to do a test.

[topper88]

Mr. Lee's theory's really led me to this site. Luckily I started with the .30-30 and using his charts and a commercial cast with a gas check I worked up to the maximum suggested pressure and it worked, perfectly. That load was 33 gr. of BL(c)2 under a 160 gr. GC cast bullet about 18 BHN. So I thought I could repeat it in my other Handi-Rifles in other calibers. No such luck and I ended up here. Last summer I acquired the 7mm Soup Can and the .22 Bator. I just got most of the other tools I need and only need gas checks to try some of the loads I have gleaned from this site. Just today at the range I shot a box of that old .30-30 load and it still gives 1" groups at a hundred yards. Besides teaching me about pressure it introduced the idea of slower powders for cast. Lyman advocates faster powders and the latest book has a mix. I now view Mr. Lee's writings as a challenge to Lyman and the status quo on cast loads. Now I will be trying a mix of fast and slow powders to see what works best. I don't think I will ever top the .30-30 load. I realize now it's that particular barrel and the cartridge that lead to the success. This was my first post after lurking for 3-5 years. Felt great.

[mpmarty]

Before I ever read Mr. Lees book I had a load for my 7.5X55 S/R that printed nice sub inch groups with light loads of Red Dot and also with 3x grs of 3031. The 3031 loads were much faster but just as accurate. After reading the book I got a LEE hardness tester and learned that my loads couldn't work at all. Book burned nicely in my stove.

[geargnasher]

Topper88, my go-to .30-30 load, with the right lube and one particular 165-grain boolit design that happens to fit the gun just right, will routinely deliver 1/2", 5-shot groups at a hundred yards at a shade over 2100 fps. I'm not pulling your leg. It won't do ten in a row because the barrel heats and it starts walking the group downward after five every time. The alloy for that one is water-quenched 50/50 wheel weights/pure which ages to around 19 bhn in a month. Very slight changes to the load, alloy, fit, brass, crimp, or lube quickly turn it into a 2-1/2" load. I've gotten another load working with a horribly fitting boolit, and with some tricks it has shot even better than 1/2" a few times, but is reliably just over an inch at the same velocity. Only tried one alloy for that one, air cooled wheel weights at 14.5 bhn. Want to guess what the pressure is on that 170-grain 14.5 bhn boolit to get it up to 2100 fps out of a 20" barrel? It's a bunch more than the ultimate compressive strength of the alloy, about two and a half times in fact.

The Lee formula works, and is a great loading method to start learning how to shoot cast boolits. One inch at a hundred is very respectable with cast boolits in any rifle, at any velocity in my opinion. But the Lee formula is NOT the only way, as is the point of my first paragraph, since you mentioned the .30-30. Stick around here and you'll soon forget about matching BHN to pressure with a calculator and start learning about boolit fit, cast prep, pressure curves, and better alloys.

Gear

[303Guy]

Welcome aboard, topper88. :drinks:

[w0fms]

w0fms, would you mind joining me on my thread on matching alloy strength and pressure with your engineering training? I'm sure you can give us better insight. It was this thread that motivated me to do a test.

I'd love to but I should comment that I am an electrical engineer and not mechanical so my interests are there but not extensive training. I did have fluids, statics and dynamics, though, so I do understand the concepts.