Cast bullet reload questions

[dj454]

Hello all. This is my first post. I will try to keep this short. I've been reloading for about 6 years now. I have loaded lead for .38's since day one with no issues in any of my revlovers. I use an advertised hardness of 12 and keep them slow. Last year I made the switch from coated lead bullets for my 10mm's and 40 S&W to regular cast bullets due to the price increase. The advertised hardness of the bullets I bought are 16. I couldn't find any softer for the 10/40 with the exception of the 38-40 cowboy bullets. They are brinnel 12 but they have a cannelure and I don't know if they would work in the auto cartridges. From my research it seems like the bullets I have tried are too hard for slow speeds. They lead more at the start of the rifling.

The loads I have tried are with 3 different types of bullets from different manufacturers. A 155 grain lead swc over 4.0 grains of Bullseye, 175 gr swc over 3.6 grains of Bullseye, and 180 gr fp over 3.6 grains of bullseye. Any lighter than that and the gun stops cycling reliably. I get significant leading with all bullets within 100 rounds. I have shot all the rest of the bullets I had except the 175 swc. They were the most accurate so I bought more of those. I have around 800 left. I have considered trying different powders I have Unique, Power Pistol, and Blue Dot on hand. I will use what I have left and I will be buying from Missourri Bullets next time to see how they work but all their bullets are brinnel 16 or 18 for the 40 except the 38-40 bullets but I have no idea if they will work. Has anybody tried them? I want to stay with lead bullets since they are so much cheaper. My next step is casting my own but I have a lot of equipment to buy before I can start. I appreciate any help.

[Blammer]

take your dedication for hardness and apply it to the fit of the projectile to your barrel.

how the projectile fits in your barrel probably has more to do with leading than the hardness. I would slug your barrels and then find someone who can cast the projectiles for you to the size you need, generally .001 over bore dia is a good place to start.

[Cherokee]

I second that, fit is king. When a hard CB is pushed in a light load, it will lead if the fit is not right @ aboutr .001" over barrel size. Heavy loads sometime work but a good fit is best.

[dj454]

My M&P Pro 40 barrel is .4005. The current bullets I have on hand are .402. I haven't slugged the other 4 barrels but I shoot the M&P the most.

[MtGun44]

+1. Fit is critical. Hardness is at best moderately imporant, and at worst - harmful.

In .38 Spl, hardness is not helpful, most likely hurtful.

In .40 (no experience in this caliber), since it is a hot cartridge, you really need good fit and
MAYBE a bit harder than .38 Spl.

In general, commercial boolits are very often 1) too small (very bad)
2) too hard (irrelevant to bad) and 3) have a marginal 'crayola lube' (very bad if
the boolit is too small and too hard).

You need to slug the barrel and use a boolit which is about .001 larger than groove diam, or
more. You need a micrometer, not a caliper for this measurement.

Bill

[dj454]

+1. Fit is critical. Hardness is at best moderately imporant, and at worst - harmful.

In .38 Spl, hardness is not helpful, most likely hurtful.

In .40 (no experience in this caliber), since it is a hot cartridge, you really need good fit and
MAYBE a bit harder than .38 Spl.

In general, commercial boolits are very often 1) too small (very bad)
2) too hard (irrelevant to bad) and 3) have a marginal 'crayola lube' (very bad if
the boolit is too small and too hard).

You need to slug the barrel and use a boolit which is about .001 larger than groove diam, or
more. You need a micrometer, not a caliper for this measurement.

Bill
I have never had a problem with commercial .38 lead bullets in 6 years in any of my revolvers. I have always used the same bullets made by Magnus because they are reasonable and I never have leading issues with them. I shoot them slow. I am also shooting the .40 slow as well but the bullets are harder and some say that is what is causing my leading issue. I have bought cheaper bullets for the .40 and I want to cast my own but it will be awhile. I might be wrong but I think the bullets I am finding are too hard. One of my shooting buddies loads lead for .45 and uses brinnel 12 bullets and has never had leading issues. The coated lead bullets I used to use do not lead at all but they don't cost much less than plated now. They are .402 just like the uncoated lead I am using currently. I have shot the coated bullets close to 1300 fps out of my 10mm with no leading and even slow they don't lead. I guess I will just have to go back to them but I was trying to save some money.

[Bullwolf]

If you have access to a kinetic boolit puller, I would recommend pulling one of your loaded 40S&W boolits, and measuring it to see if it's still .402

40S&W brass is fairly stiff, and you can easily swage down a lead boolit while stuffing it into a case. That's why many folks make and use custom oversize expander spuds for cast boolits. Most factory dies sets (with the exception of some cowboy dies) come with an expander spud that is intended for use with standard (.400) jacketed projectiles.

You might be starting out with a .402 boolit, and after pressing it into the case end up having squeezed it down to a .400 or smaller sized boolit. Either soft or hard, a .399-.400 sized boolit is a sure recipe for leading with the 40S&W.

The fastest way to see if you are having this problem is to pull a loaded round and measure it. I recommend using a micrometer to measure it with.

If you find that your boolit size is still correct after pulling a loaded round, then start to look in other places for your problem besides fit.

Be sure the barrel you are using is clean and clear of copper jacket fouling. Lead can build up on top of copper fouling in a barrel. Clean the barrel thoroughly removing ALL copper fouling with an ammonia based solvent before shooting cast.

If you still have problems try looking at the transition in the throat on your M&P pro 40 barrel. A sharp edge is much more likely to cause leading problems. A gentle smooth taper is more cast friendly, rather than an abrupt sharp edged transition to the rifling.

You could try using a slower burning powder. I have had good results using both Blue Dot and Unique with the 40S&W in my guns. I am not saying that fast powders like Bullseye or Red Dot don't work with the caliber, but often a slower burning powder can give a cast boolit a gentler shove or launch. That may give you a little more wiggle room.

I would also use a known boolit lube already proven to work.

Best of luck.


- Bullwolf

[Blammer]

maybe a change in powder may help.

[popper]

I used the MBC .401 180 TC with unique in my XDm 40 without problems. Forget what the load was but pretty close to max. I started casting @ .402 with softer alloy and got massive leading. MBC boolits are good but their lube isn't the best.

[dverna]

If you need a specific dia. and wish to purchase commercial cast bullets, Dardas will size bullets to your spec. I have purchased over 20k bullets from him and his prices and quality are very good. He will offer quantity discounts as well.

[dromia]

Hardness is a discussion between an actress and a bishop.

[mdi]

take your dedication for hardness and apply it to the fit of the projectile to your barrel.

how the projectile fits in your barrel probably has more to do with leading than the hardness. I would slug your barrels and then find someone who can cast the projectiles for you to the size you need, generally .001 over bore dia is a good place to start.

Yezzer, fit is king. Leading near the chamber often indicates a bullet too small or small and too hard to obtruate (sp?) to seal the bore...

3/29
Reread Mt44's post. Just about all you need to know at this time. Bullet hardness is over rated and most commercial cast are too hard (more for shipping purposes). I cast/loaded/shot lead bullets for mebbe 15 years before I got a hardness tester. I got rid of leading by fitting the bullet to the gun. Cast for .38 Sp., 357 Mag. (loaded to mag velocities). .44 Spec., .44 Magnum (loaded to magnum velocities), 45 ACP, and 9mm. All a mix of mystery metal and wheel weights, air cooled of ?? BHN...

[Echo]

Maybe try tumble loobing some of your boolits in 45/45/10 or straight LLA. Easy to do, and very apt to solve your problem. I'm a believer in TL'ing...

[MtGun44]

Again. In most pistol calibers, hardness is most often irrelevant to slightly significant,
but fit is critical, ALWAYS. Good fit usually trumps hardness issues entirely.

The reason that .38 Spl and .45ACP rarely have problems has a lot to do with the extreme
rarity of oversized barrels in those cartridges. Most guns either are perfect for .358 /.452
diam respectively, or are a bit tighter so there is no problem. Many other cartridges,
with the 9mm being a major offender, have guns out there that are WAY off of the
nominal spec, and MOST of the off spec barrels are too large. A boolit that is a bit
too big is rarely a problem, too small is almost always a problem. Usually accuracy
is poor and there is leading. Many find their first attempts with commercial cast
9mm have the boolits hitting sideways and leading badly.

As I said, no experience with .40, but my bet is you have a size issue not a hardness
issue. Get bigger boolits and it will probably go away.

A pretty much standard answer to questions from newbie casters is "because your
mold is dirty and too cold". For newbie loaders of boolits it is "because your boolit
is too small and too hard, and probably has a crummy lube." Tend towards bigger,
and then softer, and a better lube like NRA 50-50 or similar known good lubes.

Bill

[dj454]

Update for my leading issue with the 40. I switched to a slower burning powder. I tried Unique and Power Pistol with reduced loads and I still had leading. As I said my bullets are .402 and my barrel slugged at .4005. I pulled some loaded bullets and my bullets were still .402. Next I went 15% below a max charge with Unique and Power Pistol. Leading problems went away. I believe the bullets are too hard to obturate unless you shoot them fast. I am happy that my leading problem has went away but I would still like to find a lead bullet I can shoot slower. I am almost out of my current bullets. I am placing an order from Dardas next time I order and I will see how it goes.

[Iron Mike Golf]

Take a hard look at the barrel's throat and make sure there's no tool marks or other sharp places that can shave lead.

[Larry Gibson]

The problem is no doubt the hard wax lube on the commercial cast bullets you've bought. This has been a common problem for many years. The lube many commercial casters use is made for shipping (so the lube won't come out of the lube groves during shipping) and so they won't gum up auto bullet feeds on progressive presses. Unfortunately many such lube are very poor performers at low end handgun velocities. I suggest you get a bottle of Lee's LLA and lube the bullets per Lee's instructions. I have found many times that cures most of the leading problems.

Larry Gibson

[MtGun44]

I tend to agree with Larry - at the point where you are .0015 over groove diam, I would
suspect the crummy Crayola lube as the most likely problem. Try a good lube - I recommend
NRA 50-50.
An easy test is dump 25 commercial boolits into a pot of boiling water, then let them cool.
The wax will melt and float, then solidify, easily removed and you will have clean boolits.
Lube with NRA 50-50 and try them again. My bet is you will find no leading.

Bill

[dj454]

I tend to agree with Larry - at the point where you are .0015 over groove diam, I would
suspect the crummy Crayola lube as the most likely problem. Try a good lube - I recommend
NRA 50-50.
An easy test is dump 25 commercial boolits into a pot of boiling water, then let them cool.
The wax will melt and float, then solidify, easily removed and you will have clean boolits.
Lube with NRA 50-50 and try them again. My bet is you will find no leading.

Bill
Can I pan lube the bullets with NRA 50\50? I don't have a lubrisizer.

[felix]

Yes. ... felix

[turmech]

I can't believe I am saying this, as I never really cared for LLA, but like Larry said it would be your easiest fix and I bet it would solve the commercial lube issues. You can tumble lube right over top the commercial lube with very little effort.

The reason I don't like LLA has nothing to due with its effectiveness. I just don't care for the smoke, smell or mess and prefer to pan lube.

[dj454]

I can't believe I am saying this, as I never really cared for LLA, but like Larry said it would be your easiest fix and I bet it would solve the commercial lube issues. You can tumble lube right over top the commercial lube with very little effort.

The reason I don't like LLA has nothing to due with its effectiveness. I just don't care for the smoke, smell or mess and prefer to pan lube.

I might try the LLA. I have considered it but I have heard some negative things especially the messy part. I might just do a batch with LLA and make some pan lube and see what I like the best. I don't mind work if it yields good results.

[MtGun44]

Good luck. Not a fan of the sticky mess and stink that is LLA, but it might work. IMO, NRA 50-50
is much more forgiving lube with wider range of success with different parameters. Do you know
how to pan lube?

Bill

[dj454]

I was hesitant to use LLA because of the negative feedback I have heard about it. I will pan lube first and see how that works for me. I have never pan lubed but I have researched it and watched several videos on it.

[turmech]

I don't care for the LLA, but many do. I am not saying your on the wrong track with pan lubbing, but I would not discredit the LLA only by some bad reviews. I prefer to pan lube, as I said in the previous post. I have however used the LLA and if done right it is OK as well. Those that like it would argue it is great.

[popper]

You can do your own coated boolits, from Bayou. Solved my 40 problems.

[dj454]

You can do your own coated boolits, from Bayou. Solved my 40 problems.

Funny you should say that I was just looking into that. I am going to look for a cheap oven of some sort cheap and if I find one the Bayou coating might be my fix.

[44man]

Hardness does not cause leading by itself. It would be good to read all the posts several times and about lube, so important.
I have shot all kinds of alloys without leading but any that are soft enough to start to slump a boolit is bad. The boolit must resist seating in the brass first. Then it must not change shape when the pressure hits it. You can expand the brass larger in a pistol but it is not good in a revolver.
Mule snot, LLA, will lead my barrels faster then anything. Hard lube sucks. I use Felix but CR or LBT soft blue are great. 50-50 will work, I just don't like Alox.