Is it me, or have the posers and wannabes multiplied tenfold overnight?

[Recluse]

I'm browsing through Facebook and I see an argument over some numbnuts exercise about laying on your back, knees propped up and spread, head resting on something, and ARW (W=Whatever) firing away.

The explanation for this drill was that "you'd fallen backwards and the bad guys were all over you." Worse, there were actually students and kool-aid drinkers lapping it up and defending it.

Oh. My. God.

I went and looked up the "credentials" for the head instructor. Lots of double-talk about being familiar with weapons, having been a Krav Maga instructor (the new "sniper" of today's martial arts--everyone is a Krav Maga expert it seems and trained by the Israelis, or at least someone who knows someone who occasionally goes to a synagogue) and has some certifications from obscure groups I've never heard of and neither has anyone else at the VFW.

No military experience. No law enforcement experience. No combat private security contractor experience.

But now somehow qualified to train unsuspecting conspiracy idiots how to dress up in camo and run around the woods with their ARWs that have every tacticool attachment that Cheaper Than Dirt sells and make up these ridiculous scenarios that they saw on the latest remake of Red Dawn.

Oh. My. God.

Where do these people come from and why are there so many of them proliferating the gun world? These folks, on one hand, scare me more than the anti-gunners and government goons do because they're brainwashing people as bad as the mainstream media is.

Are these washouts from the military? These "instructors" are mid-20s/early 30s, seem to be in good physical condition (will not surmise about their mental condition), have the requisite "special forces beard and sunglasses, all the tacticool junk they can strap on themselves and have the jargon down pat and some even have a few semi-legitimate credentials.

I'm just curious how all these civilian "instructors" who've never set foot in a pair of ISSUED combat boots and who've never, ever heard or fired a shot in anger or ever left the borders of this country can claim to be such ******es and have "schools" trying to teach others the same.

"Recluse" suits me better and better every day. I know, in my circle of friends, who the real ******es are and why and if/when tough times hit, we know how and where to find each other and what to do.

Where are these clowns coming from?

:coffee:

[Love Life]

Hehehe.

I'm not sure if heard yet, but wearing a black short or long sleeve shirt, 5.11 tactical pants, black boots, and a kydex holster make you completely qualified to teach whatever you want.

[Swamp Man]

There is a lot of internet tuff guys on Facebook. Funny thing is most of them would **** in their pants if a gun battle broke out near them.

[TheCelt]

Sounds like a good way to get shot in the knee!!!!

[TXGunNut]

For a moment there I thought you were talking about yet another silly reality TV show. Suspect many of them get their training courtesy of the lastest video games. In fact, the position described is very much like the one they likely assume in the recliner while killing everything on the screen.

[Kraschenbirn]

Yeah, me and a couple other 'old-timers'...all active or former competition shooters...were kicking this around at the range the other day. Seems like every time our club runs a range safety orientation for new members, we have a couple (or three) show up in cammie britches and combat boots eager to expound their 'expertise' to anyone who'll listen.

[Bad Water Bill]

BUT----BUT----BUT

They did READ the last 4 books in Tom Clanceys Ghost Re con series.

[Love Life]

BUT----BUT----BUT

They did READ the last 4 books in Tom Clanceys Ghost Re con series.

HOLD THE PHONE!!! Are you telling me that those were NOT instruction manuals? Dang.

I love when the forward shoulder roll is touted as the best thing. I can't think of one time when I used a forward shoulder roll. A head first dive while screaming like a little girl was more than adequate.

[country gent]

Just think about this, When these "trained " newbies come up against an oldtimer who Knows what hes doing will be???? Buy an AR some high cap mags a case of mil surp ammo and throw it in the closet and your ready to go ( ussually to make a fool of themselves). Had one of these newbies at the local club tell me 200 yds was a "long Shot" for my M1A so the following wensday I took him a long to the nieghboring club for the 600 yd practice night. I shot a 199 11X for him with my M1A and national match sights. And one of those club members was nice enough to congradulate me for placing at the Bob Wright memorial 1000 yd match with the service rifle. He was in aww . we then put him down with my rifle in the second relay and let him prove what he could do :p. He did okay for first time out but was really amazed at scores. Went to dinner after and displelled some more myths he had. But these people taking all the Training are just that with out experience to cement and prove the knowledge

[perotter]

Recluse,

Maybe you might want to do like me and just avoid looking for these things/guys. I truly see less of this kind of thing now than I did a few years ago, simply because I learned to not start looking for them. And if I did find them, I ignored them.

[Olevern]

glad none of the ranges I frequent are in or near the suburbs. I knew there was a reason to live 75 miles from the nearest mall.

[Doc Highwall]

I like it when they say 100 yards is long and 200 yards is only for the experts with a rifle. I and a lot of others here have shot 200 yards with a handgun with iron sights.

It has been a while since I have shot my M1A at 600 yards or farther, been mostly shooting "TRO" Target Rifle Optics and some with match rifle. I like long distance especially with a wind as it weeds out the ones that cannot read the wind.

[TXGunNut]

Recluse,

Maybe you might want to do like me and just avoid looking for these things/guys. I truly see less of this kind of thing now than I did a few years ago, simply because I learned to not start looking for them. And if I did find them, I ignored them.

I disagree. Since I gave up on TV awhile back I've enjoyed watching these toy soldiers. Spending a little time at my local Cabelas gun counter or reloading area eavesdropping on what passes for gun wisdom these days is good entertainment. Also good fun when a couple of clowns showed up at the range a few benches and the spotter's job was to go thru a script ending in "send it!" before each shot. Same weekend an armchair commando showed up in the range office/store with an AR built from pieces he asssembled over the internet, with knowledge gained there also. He'd made the required investment in BDU's as well but for some reason his AR wouldn't shoot. I asked a couple of (I thought) pertinent questions about headspace and chamber condition but he blew me off. I got a bottle of water, set my dumb butt down and watched the show.

[Bad Water Bill]

Just think about all of that nice shiny ONCE FIRED brass you will be able to scoop up for FREE when those CASE HARDENED wanna be book komandos advance to the REAR.:bigsmyl2:

[runfiverun]

HOLD THE PHONE!!! Are you telling me that those were NOT instruction manuals? Dang.

I love when the forward shoulder roll is touted as the best thing. I can't think of one time when I used a forward shoulder roll. A head first dive while screaming like a little girl was more than adequate.

I got to use slip, slip, sliiide once coming out the back door of an apc.
the boy's got a laugh out of that.
thankfully that stupid wall and my face broke my momentum.

y'all know that they have a show on the outdoor channel that is a competition for operators, rangers, and former operators, and contractors and stuff right?
it is a series of training operations done for speed, and accuracy, and stuff.
and they somehow determine a winner

[KinkBreaker]

im laughing

[km101]

Recluse, you just have to realize that these guys are NOT for real, and see them as the entertainment they are.
And if you listen close you can learn a LOT of good information. Such as:

The sights on a match M1A dont have enough elevation to shoot more than 200 yds! But that's OK, because in a combat situation you will never need to shoot more than a 200 yd shot! (heard at local range)

Revolvers are inherently innacurate and are not useful for more than 25 - 30 yards. (gunshop guru)

There is not a .45acp made that is accurate at more than 50 yards. (another gunshop guru)

An it goes on and on. It's amazing what you can learn if you listen carefully!!! I just listen and learn and try not to laugh!

[Goatwhiskers]

Darn, I live too far out in the country, and NEVER go to a public range. I'm missing all the free instruction--I mean entertainment. I've got a deal set up with the local SO instructor to show up one day when he's working with the "SWAT" team, lay down with my single shot "sniper" rifle and show 'em how to put one in the head. These guys are doing good to put 10 on the paper. GW

[waksupi]

I agree, just think of all the cool stuff you can get from them to sell at the yard sale.

Personally?

I hide with pride.

[Case Stuffer]

I guess I have not been paying enough attation. Back in 1967 during Advanced Infantry Training we qualified out to 700 meters with M16s. True the targets were peter pop ups so man sized but even a good M16 does not have the accuracy of a fair M1, When did the M1A become so inaccurate? The M14AR I qualified with in would put 10 rounds into a raged hole at 50 meters . The day we zeroed our M14s in basic training the RO would not believe that my 3 round group was a single hole. Had to shot another target with a witness target behind it to prove all three rounds were indeed there and then he was pissed , I guess he did not like real shooters.

Just so happened that from April up to when I got my draft notice that Oct. I was shooting a bench rest match most every weekend.

[Gar]

Well excuuuse me, I have a whole closet full of BDU's both in jungle and desert patterns and maybe even a set of tiger striped fatigues so I guess that makes me an x-spurt.
Oh wait, they were issued to me, I haven’t worn any of them in last 4 years and I forgot everything I’d taught in the last 30 years the day they gave me my blue retirement card . . . . . . Never mind :kidding:

[crowbuster]

I have no desire to join the ranks on spacebook, just cant do it.

[Recluse]

I got to use slip, slip, sliiide once coming out the back door of an apc.
the boy's got a laugh out of that.
thankfully that stupid wall and my face broke my momentum.

y'all know that they have a show on the outdoor channel that is a competition for operators, rangers, and former operators, and contractors and stuff right?
it is a series of training operations done for speed, and accuracy, and stuff.
and they somehow determine a winner

Lamar, I suspect you and I had loosely related jobs in the AF (that's Air Force, by the way for all the acronym haters) and we determined "winning" by coming back from operations--training or for real--with the same amount of blood in you as you had when you went out.

It really was that simple.

What's more, we trained as teams, not competitors. Those tv shows are a joke and I refuse to watch them.

I guess that's why I revere my wooden stock guns with lever action and bolt action and pump action and adore my wheelguns.

A buddy of mine here at the airport, a three-tour Green Beret in Vietnam explained it like this: "You have real pilots who have and fly real airplanes, and you have computer pilots whose entire flying has been done in front of a computer screen. Who are you going to choose to get you from point A to point B when it counts?"

:coffee:

[GabbyM]

I truly enjoy the tactical guys. Especially when they show up at a range. Then especially when it's my new SIL the AZ C.O. range instructor. He's a good man. You fathers of daughters out there know how no man can be good enough for your little girl until one is. Well that does'nt make me shy away from enjoying whooping his tail on the shooting range. So as he was explaing how they train to shoot into center mass untill the perp is down. I did mention you're just shooting into a hole. As I moved targets out. S&W 38 vs Glock 9mm at 85 yards. I had the M10 S&W. After that it doesn't matter how good he is unless I can't shoot. I shot six to hit a milk jug four times then he just shook his head and walked away. Then I showed him how to shoot trap from the hip. He didn't think you could do that. lol. Then he set up some 100 yard rifle targets for a shoot off with my daughter. She had her AR with scope. They expected me to use my new scope sighted 30-06. I grabed up my win 94 iron sight with Saeco 150gr GC over 26gr Rx7 and won. I just have to do this while I still can. They'll get better but I won't.

I'd never waste a day reading tactical sights. Since I've no ambition to be cool. Yes that's a cheep jab.

[popper]

Now be nice to me, I do have a camo jacket - to walk the dog. Bass Pro didn't have a zip up hoodie in anything but camo. The wife joked saying the dog thought it was walking itself. Actually have run across some of them a the range, but if you are nice, sometimes they listen. Last time it was a young fellow with a sawed off 12 ga (legal but short) who couldn't hit a single clay. Told him to aim lower and he started hitting, @ 10'. Then the bead sight he glued on fell off and he went home. Then there is the guy with 300 factory 9mm zombie rounds that prints the galaxy on paper. But hey, it's their time and $$. Of course I felt stupid trying to put 308W in a 30-30. Darned things just won't chamber at all. Or getting the pin on the wrong side of the FP in the bolt. Darned thing just won't go bang. When I was 18 I did qualify as marksman with the M1, to find out I would be selected for landing party if needed. And they gave me a loaded carbine on watch duty - don't know what I'd have done with it if needed.

[Bad Water Bill]

"And they gave me a loaded carbine on watch duty - don't know what I'd have done with it if needed."

Do just what 99% of these tactikool komandos would do if confronted at 0010. Clear out shorts,spray and PRAY.

[Dragoon 45]

I went to visit one of those super cool shooting schools, just after I hung up my uniform, to check them out for some place to shoot. I didn't want to sign up for classes, just wanted a place to shoot. I was informed by the young tacti-cool operator in their office that I did not know how to shoot even with 30 years in the military. Oh well, those leg points I got with both a rifle and pistol along with my excellence in competition medals, and my CIB mean nothing.

But then again I am glad they are out there, they will be soaking up fire doing their thing, while I do the old man routine. Old age and guile over rule youth and vigor any day.

[runfiverun]

jd i'm sure they were connected.
I can/could still fall out of stuff if necessary. [my knees wouldn't like it]
I have made a LOT more take offs than landings.

[Love Life]

Are they high speed, low drag?

[Down South]

I see a few of them at the range often. It's usually two to four with all of their tactical gear. Most look to be about 18-30 years old. I just go to a different range since we have several to choose from.
I do go over and check for spent brass after they have gone. I've lucked out on some nice brass since they never seem interested in picking it up.
I don't frequent gun stores that often and I'm usually in and out quick when I do visit one but I have had to hang around the gun counter a few times. You can hear some wild stuff there.
I don't watch the stuff on TV. Don't care for it. I don't Face Book it either. I do have an account that I started less than a year ago to stay in contact with a few folks that using FB seems to be their primary means of communication.
I've gotten to the point in less than a year that I rarely visit FB any more. Too many people want to be friends with me that I don't care about being friends with.

[OeldeWolf]

All rthis talk about the tactikool kommandos raises one problem I am trying to figure a way out of.

My father was USN. An uncle each were USAF and USMC. I did not go into the service, it having been peacetime when I graduated. My last surviving uncle is in another state, ands getting long in the tooth. :) And unfortunately, my good friend locally (USMC) was in too poor of health to do more than give me some advice, to which I have listened closely ( he has passed on, now).

I have not the money for gunsite, although I hear their courses are pretty good?

So trying to learn to be smarter/better than the idiots (being worse/dumber might be too hard) still leaves me looking for information. And well aware that there is a lot I do not know. Anybody have an idea how/where I can do more learning? Times look to be getting bad, and more/better skill might be a bright idea.

[Wal']

I'm thinking the problem with a lot of these wannabees & weekend warriors is that unlike most of us old farts they've never had the opportunities we had as young men, like I started training at school & then in later years the reserves/home guard ??? training & using every conceivable light weapon available.

My son joined up in the Air Force [RAAF] reserves & then was taken on training bivouacs where they substituted weapons & live fire ammo with flour bombs.............can you believe that..........what a joke! he didn't stay in long!

So I can see where a lot of these wannabees come from .......... but they're still good entertainment though.

[runfiverun]

Are they high speed, low drag?

I still have your address...
next box is gonna be a punch. :lol: apply it liberally.
lmao.

oldewolf.
look,,, man..... the best thing you can learn is the difference between cover and concealment.
plan which direction you are gonna go, where your final destination is,,,,get there.
and don't get caught in a crossfire.

the rest is trying to determine where incoming rounds are coming from [it's not always as easy as you think] moving to cover.
and then fixing the incoming problem.

[TXGunNut]

So trying to learn to be smarter/better than the idiots (being worse/dumber might be too hard) still leaves me looking for information. And well aware that there is a lot I do not know. Anybody have an idea how/where I can do more learning? Times look to be getting bad, and more/better skill might be a bright idea.-OeldeWolf

You may look into competitive shooting in a discipline that interests you. Posers and wannabes don't last when the shooting gets serious and BS doesn't help their scores. You don't have to be a great shooter to be a competitive shooter, I'm walking, talking, living proof of that! Your fellow competitors will work with you to improve your skills if you'll just express a willingness to listen & try. Don't let anyone tell you that comp skills don't translate to the real world, I have it on very good authority that they do.

[9.3X62AL]

Ah, the Gear Queers. Yes, that is insensitive and insulting. That is how it was intended.

These worthies aren't as annoying as mosquitoes on a fishing trip, and have far more entertainment potential if the perverse and bizarre ends of things are to your tastes. I like how they tend to quiet down and slink off after some old crank shows up with a prehistoric rifle.....you know, wooden stock, bolt or lever action, cast bullets......and proceeds to ring the 200- and 300-yard steel targets with those museum items. Offhand. Or dares to produce a single-action revolver and repeatedly bang the 100 yard gong with those same poured bullets. They are often nice enough to leave all sorts of once-fired brass laying around, though some of it is that "no-deposit/no-return" steel or aluminum useless stuff.

[captaint]

You made me proud of myself. I don't even know what Krav Magna means. Never heard the term.
I love being an old guy. Mike

[cbrick]

Ah, the Gear Queers. Yes, that is insensitive and insulting. That is how it was intended.

65308

Gear queers. That's great, gonna steal that one.

Rick

[9.3X62AL]

Have at it, Rick. :)

[lcclower]

"Toy Soldiers" has to be the most appropriate descriptor for those jokers, a far better perjorative than any others I have heard. Kudos.
I can't help but notice that the Marines are 125% snipers, but none of them shoot positions or know how to use an M1907 sling, they all have "sniper rifles" but no clue about bayonets. Oh yeah, and a grazing it from a .45ACP will cause a quadruple back fli with a 1 1/2 twist.

[375H&HGuy]

The mall ninjas are amusing and a good source of once fired brass as has been noted above. I think the mentality all stems from movies, video games, and foremost...advertising. I avoid them at the range. All the shooting shows I have seen are gear oriented. The few shooting shows I stop to watch as I flip channels are at least half advertising. Buy the latest wiz bang this, the newest tacticool that.

What bothers me more are all the hunting shows that follow the same genre. The host(hunter) has the latest in everything down to the super duper scent blocking, bug proof, underwear(in camo). The shows are a fast paced series of edited "kills" and the whole thing is set to full volume hard rock music. Add in as many ATV, truck, beef jerky and little blue pill ads as you can in between the "hunting" and there you have a show.

[Bad Water Bill]

I enjoyed the video where the snow camoed mighty hunter killed an elk at a lazered 2,900 yards D R T

[Doc Highwall]

GabbyM, with the model 94 and iron sights was that with a peep or better yet the open barrel sight?

Years ago when I was young and did not have much money like a lot of us here, I shot 22Lr. most of the time because it was all I could afford. I did not even own a center fire gun of any kind so 22Lr. was my learning tool.

One day a friend of mine gave me a Stevens Springfield bolt action 22Lr. that was missing parts and living not to far from Savage Arms I went over there. I knew that Savage Arms had bought Stevens Arms, and when I arrived and told them what I needed. They showed me a book with all the pictures of the guns with the exploded views and my rifle was not there. A older woman came out and I described the rifle and she said I know just what you need and she came back with the parts, even giving me extra ones and when I asked her how much I owed (Remember young and not much money) she said no charge and I thanked her. Well I still have those extra pieces down in my shop and every time I see them I think of her.

I still have that rifle and when I was working at Dan Wesson Arms in the bluing room it was re-blued better then the original bluing/polish job. The rifle when I got it had a globe front sight and a cheap peep sight on the rear, well I shot that rifle more than any rifle I ever shot until I started to shoot competition. Winchester Wild Cats was the cheapest 22Lr. dirty but accurate (Remember young and not much money) and I had it sighted in at 200 yards . I shot offhand only with that rifle at tin cans and after I got real good I could aim at the right side of the can to bounce it to the left or aim at the left side and bounce it to the right. Well one day the coach for the state rifle team after seeing me on several different occasions shooting like I was asked me if I was interested in shooting on the state team with a real M-14. Boy was my head swelled up with pride, but with out realizing it that was the real start of my education in learning to shoot. Having to keep a diary and learning to apply minutes of angle all the other things has gone a long way. After shooting high power with a M-14 and Match rifle for so many years I thought I was a pretty good shooter.

Then one day a friend of mine said he was going to shoot small bore competition and would I like to go with him and I said sure. I have a Winchester 52 C with the Lyman globe front sight and a Lyman Lollypop rear sight and off we went.

I thought that because I knew how to shoot high power with all the recoil and muzzle blast that the little 22Lr. was going to be easy. Talk about sucking at shooting, I could only shoot a 380-385 on the 100 yard small bore target and some times worse. Well I learned that natural point of aim along with a proper fitting rifle is a must have if I wanted to do my best. I shoot a rifle left handed because of being blind in my right eye, and having to break position to load the rifle for each shot along with the movement my caused my natural point of aim to change just enough that my scores would not get above 390-395. Shooting the right handed Winchester 52 C was holding me back, then along came another shooting friend who had a left hand Anschutz that his son was no longer shooting and offered me the use of it. Well after shooting it the rest of the season and being able to shoot my first 400 at 100 yards prone I knew I had to get my own left handed gun and I ordered a Anschutz 2013 LH that had all the bells and whistles.

The next several years after much learning/practice/trigger time along with keeping a better diary with input from a national record holder Gregory Tomsen I am now able to shoot lots of 400’s .
I remember when I shot my record 100 yard score of 400-37X I came in 3rd place, Gregory Tomsen shot a 400-38X and Jeffery Doerschler another national record holder shot a 400-37X that Creedmoor me.

Just because you have a fast car does not make you a racecar driver, and just because you have a fancy gun does not make you a expert rifleman. It just means you have the means to acquire them and nothing more.

One thing I have learned here at Cast Boolits is after learning how to shoot.
To be a good small bore shooter all you have to do is know how to test ammo.
To be a good high power shooter you have to know how to load ammo.
To be a good black powder shooter you have to be a good bullet caster and know how to load cast bullets verses jacketed bullets.

[Boerrancher]

I love when the forward shoulder roll is touted as the best thing. I can't think of one time when I used a forward shoulder roll. A head first dive while screaming like a little girl was more than adequate.

You hit the nail squarely on the head. I couldn't have explained a real world situation any better. One only need to read Run's post on how to exit the back of an ACP, and add it to your statement and one has all the info that is needed for combat.

All levity aside, in many ways I feel sorry for the these mall ninja types. They don't know how to shoot. They don't know how to move, and they most certainly have yet to figure out how to communicate. Out of the three things I listed the last one is probably the most important. There are a lot of knowledgeable folks out there who are willing to share, you just have to be willing to set aside your ego and pride long enough to talk to them and ask questions. I have been shooting, casting, reloading, and hunting for over 35 years now, and I have yet to stop learning.

Now that all of my mentors that I grew up with are gone, guys who had lots of real world experience, I have found than many of you here have become my mentors. I have learned a great deal from the people here, and am grateful for the folks here who willingly share their experiences and discoveries. When I first joined this site, I was convinced that cast boolits were only good for handguns, muzzleloaders, and rifles at handgun velocities, and that the harder the better when it come to cast boolits. Now I am shooting and hunting with cast boolits out of many of my rifles, and have learned that 2500 fps is quite doable out of a 30cal with a cast boolit and can be just as accurate as a jacketed bullet if one takes the time to make it so.

I know I have diverged from the OP somewhat, and ask for your forgiveness of my A.D.D. moment. I don't go looking for the mall ninja/tacticool types, and when I find them at the range I try to educate them without embarrassing them. No one wants to be publicly humiliated. If they want to learn I teach them what I can. If they don't I don't bother to try and just go about my business shooting as well as I can shoot, and making the best use of my time that I have.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Adam10mm]

Where do these people come from and why are there so many of them proliferating the gun world? These folks, on one hand, scare me more than the anti-gunners and government goons do because they're brainwashing people as bad as the mainstream media is.
I thought Yeager was the only one but it seems his type is multiplying.


I'm just curious how all these civilian "instructors" who've never set foot in a pair of ISSUED combat boots and who've never, ever heard or fired a shot in anger or ever left the borders of this country can claim to be such ******es and have "schools" trying to teach others the same.
Been wondering that too. If I'm going to be trained for a gunfight, I want to be trained by someone with actual experience. There are some "high profile" guys like Travis Haley and Chris Costa and some "old school" guys like Ken Hackathorn, Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers.

In case you haven't heard of the former pair:

Costa: http://www.costaludus.com/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=4

Haley: http://www.haleystrategic.com/about.php

There is also the infamous Blackwater Sniping in Iraq video that's been around where Haley is on cam a half minute into it and handles business.


Also good fun when a couple of clowns showed up at the range a few benches and the spotter's job was to go thru a script ending in "send it!" before each shot.
OMG! So a couple of those guys were at the range doing that garbage here. One of the older guys got a kick out of them, so he went to his truck, grabbed a couple of postage stamps and said "These might help. Let me know if you need more" and walked back to his cup of coffee. I've never laughed so hard in my life. My abs hurt the next day.

Ah, the Gear Queers. Yes, that is insensitive and insulting. That is how it was intended.
There's a lot of gear queers in the competition world too. What's funnier is the fan boys of their favorite instructor. I remember reading on FB a picture that Chris Costa posted of him doing a drill and guys were asking what boots, pants, sunglasses, watch he was wearing. Then you go to that guy's FB page a couple weeks later and he's dressed just like Costa was in the original pic. If that isn't a man crush I don't know what is.

[Love Life]

5,000 times. Repeat that for me. 5,000 times/repititions is what it takes to make a movement muscle memory. I can recall all the times we spent HOURS a day doing magazine changes, immediate action, remedial action, contact left/right/front/rear, near ambush, far ambush, vehicle dismount, vehicle mount, IED drills, 5's and 25's, breaching, door busting, the ever hated squad/ fireteam/buddy rushes across the quad, patrols, crosing danger areas, etc. How to move, how far to stay off a wall, room clearing. Do you cross or button hook? If you cross or hook what does the 2 man do? Close, near, far. Get out of the fatal frontal. Thow the grenade into the room like a baseball as hard as you can so the poopstain in there can't pick it up as easy and throw it out. Cook off the grenade (longest 3 seconds of your life), if you toss a grenade in and it comes rolling out what do you do? Why your team immediately makes a fast entry of course.

A whole bunch of commas and slashes up there huh? There are so many little intracacies in real combat that if I sat down and typed them all out I would probably fill 3 whole pages on the forum and still leave stuff out. Heck I could do that with a 5 paragraph order (MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH longer than it sounds).

I haven't even touched the defense, defense in depth, top down clearing, alternate and supplementary positions. Oh and SAFE SOC. Heck I could probably fill a page with acronyms.

Do the classes given by the true professionals help? Yes they do, but they do not make the student a professional. They make the student more prepared.

Like Joe said, communication is HUGE. Along with working together as a unit. Ahh fond memories.

[Ickisrulz]

These types of threads remind me of Job 12:2. Why pile on a sub-set of our gun culture that is enjoying something?

There has to be some people out there who know what they are talking about. There have to be some instructors who provide a valuable service. There has to be some knowledge somewhere outside of this forum.

[Boerrancher]

There are so many little intracacies in real combat that if I sat down and typed them all out I would probably fill 3 whole pages on the forum and still leave stuff out. Heck I could do that with a 5 paragraph order (MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH longer than it sounds).

I don't remember how many pages the 5 paragraph OP ORD was for the BN movement to Afghanistan, but it was handed to me in a two inch, 3 ring binder, and all the appendices came in a second binder the same size. I was longing for the days that I was back to dealing with Platoon OP ORD for my Squad.

Best wishes,

Joe

[P.K.]

Krav Maga for me is another tool in the box, but if anyone expounds their supposed mastery of it ask for a quick bio on Imi Lichtenfeld.

[Love Life]

5 paragraph orders are funny things. They aren't hard to fill out. It is the amount of information you have to input. Thank God we can put "with full combat load" instead of spelling out everything!!

The last one I wrote was for a squad misson and was 35 pages all said and done. Now FRAGO are the way to go. Even warning orders are a pain in the rear. Ahh the 1/3, 2/3 rule.

[Circuit Rider]

Gentlemen and Ladies, To each of you that has served, you have my undying gratitude.I'm not good at putting words to paper,so to speak, but I'll try. I'll be 72 in a few months and think back to spring of '64 when I got a divorce and received my draft notice. I didn't make it past the medical, deemed 4F because of a health problem, which seems to be showing up more as I get older. The point of my comments are this, I envy you all because of the camaraderie you share, tho what I'm sure many of you experienced I wouldn't wish on anyone. I am still learning, and glean information from each of you to make my journey easier, you've been there, done that. Thanks, James

[garym1a2]

Theeir are some youtypes i like to watch. Hickok45 is my favorite. You must watch his ar15 verse double barrel shotgun comparsion for home defense.

[RydForLyf]

My wife and I go to Orlando to shoot the GSSF each year with some FL friends. There's one mall ninja that's always there with all of his tactical gear, empty 30-round mag holders on his belt and thigh rig, etc. You can't miss him because he's always decked out in his "NRA Certified Instructor" T-shirt. He draws a "few" glances and smiles as he shoots the stages because he always makes sure his area is clear before swapping mags. It's fun for a few laughs and impersonations throughout the match. Too bad his shooting isn't up to par with his fashion and performance art.

I'm sure we'll see him next year.

-RFL

[Love Life]

All rthis talk about the tactikool kommandos raises one problem I am trying to figure a way out of.

My father was USN. An uncle each were USAF and USMC. I did not go into the service, it having been peacetime when I graduated. My last surviving uncle is in another state, ands getting long in the tooth. :) And unfortunately, my good friend locally (USMC) was in too poor of health to do more than give me some advice, to which I have listened closely ( he has passed on, now).

I have not the money for gunsite, although I hear their courses are pretty good?

So trying to learn to be smarter/better than the idiots (being worse/dumber might be too hard) still leaves me looking for information. And well aware that there is a lot I do not know. Anybody have an idea how/where I can do more learning? Times look to be getting bad, and more/better skill might be a bright idea.

What are you looking to learn? How close are you to the Reno/Carson Nevada area? I don't mind going through the firing tables with you and the drills.

[dudits]

i get a lot of free brass from those fellows.

i wear a tacticool boonie hat when mowing the lawn :)

[9.3X62AL]

Monday at the range today was nice. No Cammie Jammie Cadre, just 3-4 guys wearing Pendletons, T-shirts, or golf shirts with blue jeans. This is my uniform guideline since retirement, FWIW. I have BDUs, but they are for hunting--not range use. I'd feel like a DORK dressed that way. Besides--if I was all ghillied out, people would bump into me a lot--right? :)

[PS Paul]

'xactly why I only visit the range on Mondays any longer. he he

[Piedmont]

Theeir are some youtypes i like to watch. Hickok45 is my favorite. You must watch his ar15 verse double barrel shotgun comparsion for home defense.
He has one with a SMLE .303 that makes me want to scream. Drops it from the shoulder to cycle the action every single time.

[Bad Water Bill]

When I read how you MUST have camo to be a successful hunter I have to chuckle.

When I was younger I parked the car crawled UNDER a barbed wire fence and stalked a buck across a 80 acre cut down corn field. He was at the far end of the field. I got to within 40 feet or so before I decided I had enough fun and moved fast. Yes then he did also.

Many times I did that wearing plain jeans a cotton t shirt and LEATHER moccasins. Have to watch out for them branches.

The indians had to do that every time they were hungry.

[Adam10mm]

I hunt in jeans, an insulated black/grey plaid Cabela's shirt and a blaze orange hat (to be legal). I've stalked to within 30-40y from deer. I have one piece of camo and that's a camo beanie cap I got 10 years ago. I wear it because it's warm.

I don't get these guys that spend $400+ on a Scentlock camo suit either. If they have the money and think it helps, guess there's no harm. I'm in the woods to be a hunter, not a shooter.

[Bad Water Bill]

Please do NOT forget to purchase our special laundry soap. Wash your clothes AT LEAST 3 times before venturing into the woods.

Yeah right.

[P.K.]

Please do NOT forget to purchase our special laundry soap. Wash your clothes AT LEAST 3 times before venturing into the woods.

Yeah right.

Wait.....what!!! I've had my hunting kit/newest Under Armor camo pattern/scent hiding gear in a vacum sealed bag burried in loam for 6 months!

Cold weather, German mil-surp wool cargo pants, nice blend of color to the fibers. For a coat, a Woolrich red Guide Coat. Not a stich of "cammo" at all. Wind direction and lack of movement work just fine.

[Doc Highwall]

Be quite and be down wind.

[Doc Highwall]

I heard one a long time ago about scent. Pine scent may fool us, but to deer it just smells like somebody took a dump under a pine tree. You can fool his eyes and his ears, but you cannot fool his nose.

[dakotashooter2]

The trend today is to substitute technology for skill. I grew up with a single shot .22 and could get off at least 6 accurate shots a minute with open sites when I had to. I'm not nearly that fast any more..... Last time I went prairie dog hunting a simple 2.5-9 variable scope was all I had and a third shot was rarely needed on the ones that were out there. There were no scope adjustments just Texas windage........... You don't learn this stuff sitting at the bench. We shot thousands upon thousands of rounds at gophers,rabbits, skunks, rocks and dirt clumps at various and ever changing ranges to acquire our skills.

As far as modern clothing the ONLY advantage it has is its light weight. I have abandoned goretex all together. If I am moving at all I sweat like a pig in it. Wool is my fabric of choice these days. Some persperation may escape it but not nearly enough in most cases. And I'm not convinced scentlock is that effective either. It can only absorb scent so fast and even then at a limited amount. What is left is forced out any openings in the clothing because of the body creating heat and presurizing the space next to the body. I also don't believe in the cover sprays. It was common teaching when I began hunting that deer can descriminate between a mixure of scents. In other words if you have apple, dirt, estrus, and human scent all mixed together the animal can still pick out each scent individually. And while these sprays may be scent free to us animals have a more refined nose than we do and there is a good chance they can pick out the spray itself. Besides when using it the body is continually producing scent while the sprays do not renew themselfs to cover it.

[bruce drake]

Lovelife mentioned heaving grenades hard and fast to keep the Gomer from easily picking it up and tossing it out of the way.

Interesting event in a former life ;)

Iraq, Kirkuk Province, village of Hawija.

One of my troops who loved to spend his days lifting weights when we were not on a mission was with me when we recieved fire from the village identified above during a patrol to see the local district leader. We went in hard and fast with the security team to clear the building and he heaved the ball so hard it imprinted into the wet mud of an adobe wall patch and blew out like an improvised claymore. The now-directional grenade/mine blew out the two Gomers in the room and popped the back of the wall out and killed a goat in the stable attached to the room. The young troop got the internal-net call-sign "Goat-Killer" after that. ;) He probably still uses it. I'm sure he hasn't gotten any smaller!

Bruce

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I feel sorry for the poor fellows. Most of them probably live in town where the only place to shoot is a 25 yard indoor range that charges $12+ per hour and requires lead free ammo. Most of them probably feel like they have missed out on the experiences of their fathers and grandfathers (nevermind how horrible they might have been). Most of them are probably stuck at mindless dead end jobs. Many probably grew up playing video games instead of prowling the woods like a boy should. They are bored and simply entertaining themselves with something that provides a bit of a "high" and builds their self confidence a bit (albiet somewhat falsely). My father is a Marine and retired LE and I can count the times on one hand that we left the suburbs to go shooting much less hunting. I worshiped his skills and experiences, yet he had all the addrenaline rushes one man needed in a lifetime and didn't particularly care to spend his off hours reminding himself of them. I never had much luck finding another local mentor. Over the past 18 months I have rekindled my interest in shooting and it was this forum that really made it possible for me start learning what was possible casting, reloading, hunting, matches ect. During that time I have reloaded my first rounds, cast my first boolits, shot my first match, shot my first whitetail (wearing camo;), joined the NRA, shot trap/skeet for the first time, you name it. I recently submitted an application to a local gun club. I'm getting there, but still have quite a ways to go.

Follow Country Gent's example and show them what proper technique and skills can do. Many will scoff, some will take notice and become the stewards of the skills themselves.

[montana_charlie]

I'm browsing through Facebook and I see an argument over some numbnuts exercise ...
Where are these clowns coming from?
Facebook ...

[9.3X62AL]

Farmer, you and Country Gent make very valid points--no doubt about it. A lot of young men and women grow up without good male role models near-at-hand, thanks in part to family law systems that view fathers as otherwise superfluous funding sources without rights worth recognizing to their own children. Deadbeat dads, mi nalgas......but that's another subject.

[TES]

I've only had two episodes of complete wannabeitis..One guy was out with a group of non wannabes he had his para cord necklace with knife dangling para cord bracelet black t and cargo pants brand new AR with all the cool stuff and a shoulder sling....now the bell had been rung for a cold range and there were probably 10 guys walking down range backwards looking at this guy specifically as he was practicing his quick draw with his AR. I looked at the older gentleman in his group that was obviously troubled by this guy. He then looked at me and I pointed at all the people nervously walking down the range looking at this yahoo and then pointed to the the gun and then to the table. The dude finally got it and promptly put his toy down.

Then there was the rich really round lawyer........pulls up and parks his expensive barrel compensator. Pulls out a shiny new AR with all the whistles and blows through about 3 boxes of ammo.....now I'm watching his rounds hit all around the gong at a hundred yards and he keeps looking at his rifle and turning this and that I don't think he hit his target but maybe once. Sooo....I put down my rifle and load up a few rounds in my pistol and go over to his side of the shooting benches right next to him. Sit aim and shoot the 100 yard gong a few times. I hear a sound of disgust come from his bench then he packs up his gun and leaves. I had a smirk on my face. I though he might ask for help but....his ego got in the way.

[Doc Highwall]

Silvercreek Farmer, good for you. We all had to start some place in our lives learning to do different things, and having a mentor can make it faster to learn. But what we learn from our mentor also depends on their degree of knowledge and experience level of what they are teaching to their student.

I can teach you how to shoot a rifle so you will be able to compete at a high skill level because I have been there but, I could not tell you about combat experience's because I have never been in combat or done a lot of other things.

In competitive shooting it is one thing to be the best in your club verses being the best in the state verses best in the country verses best in the world. The limiting factor of the student learning is the goals that they set for themselves no matter what their age is. A great example here is the thread about Extreme bullet lube that is close to 100 pages long and still being worked on. The pursuit of excellence is a never ending battle for the person that has set their goal to the highest level that they can conceive in their minds.

When a person says their gun is accurate I ask them what do you call accurate? Because we all have an opinion based on what we have experienced or what we have seen as accurate can give us a different opinion to accuracy.

[reloaderman]

http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/reloaderman2/mallninja_zps4a23e95b.jpg

[Love Life]

Combat shooting isn't really that hard. It just takes massive repitition as I'm sure all disciplines do. You need to have muscle memory so when you get scared, or you have to react without thinking, your body does all the work for you.

Why do you think so many combat experiences involving killing the enemy start with "I zoned out", or something similar? Once you ID the target (brain muscle memory I guess) your muscle memory takes care of things. I also wanted to add that I have never seen anybody hold their rifle like that guy from Magpul in Combat. Everybody uses a broom handle or holds the magazine well. If I saw some young Devil Pup holding the weapon in some new or dumb position my self and my fellow team leaders would "Adjust" their position. Go ahead and stick your arm out over and shoulder above the parapet/sandbags/wall and see what happens. Dumbest thing I have ever seen.

Combat shooting in real life is nothing like the "Combat shooting" taught at the uber cool schools. Combat shooting is harsh and dirty. Gain fire superiority and kill as many as possible while destroying what you can. We don't do those cool 'shooting from an odd position on the ground' because we are usually carrying anywhere from 60 to over 100 lbs of stuff depending on the mission. It is hard to get back up wearing all that **** if you are on your back and side. The prone is more than adequate. Keep your feet/balance, shoot, move, and communicate.

I wish all the enemy would have layed on their backs in some dumb position. Would have made it easy to stick a 40mm HEDP on them.

[GT27]

I've always lived my life with the a morale of being a better listener than a talker,a lot of times you learn more,sometimes not so much!I feel sorry at times for the BS'ers out there,IMHO its low self esteem matter,and whats funny is you can watch how a person conducts themselves,without saying a word, or on here by what and how they word their thoughts and experience,in life by their body language what kind of personality they have.This has been my experience in life,and I try not to surround myself with these types,got to be the center of attention. On the web the majority profess to be experts,just depends on how much intellect you have to believe it or not...GT27

[bruce drake]

http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/reloaderman2/mallninja_zps4a23e95b.jpg

Kim Jong Un?

[P.K.]

..................

[9.3X62AL]

Gangnam Mall Ninja.

[white eagle]

Whats Facebook?

[dudits]

i grew up with a very strict father as a role model. he used to ground me just so i could pull the handle on his green single stage press.
the whole family went shooting every sunday for many years. after awhile i was the only one that would go with him.
that ****** is now no longer interested in guns but my mother is now a gun nut. she is not much into loading "i do it for her"
but damn does she love to shoot.
it is crazy to see a doctor close to 60 years old that has more guns then most gunshops i have been to and, call her mom :)

when at the range i get a lot of people trying to help my fiance shoot, funny thing is she drills the paper and outdoes most men
there.

silvercreek farmer- sounds like you have the bug man! also sounds as you are doing everything in order and are on the way to
saving money like the rest of us :)


all you vets--- THANK YOU for giving me a country far better then elsewhere. due to your blood sweat and tears i get to call myself an American. i do not believe yall get to hear it enough, so again THANK YOU

[BLTsandwedge]

.....Krav Maga expert it seems and trained by the Israelis, or at least someone who knows someone who occasionally goes to a synagogue.....

I'm a real live Jew and branched Ordnance maintenance in the U.S. Army (for a decade about three decades ago). Can I open up a combat school now?

Chag Sameach and Gut Yontiff all, enjoy the Passover seders..............

[montana_charlie]

Whats Facebook?
Where you find the wannabes ...

[dakotashooter2]

I stayed at the Holiday Inn last night.............does that qualify me as a shooting instructor........?

[runfiverun]

if you had a plate on your door that said 'shooting instructor' I think you'll be fine.

[Hamish]

http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/reloaderman2/mallninja_zps4a23e95b.jpg

I don't know, I got to give this kid some credit. He's *not* permanently crashed on the couch playing COD. He obviously couldn't make the physical requirements to join the military, but he has spent a lot of time and invested a pretty large nut to outfit himself. I will *assume* that he shines his own boots. Even if his size is directly attributable to what he puts in his mouth, he still apparently has an active social life, not hiding in a basement, brooding about any real or imagined wrongs done to him.

It's *got* to be tough to live in that body, know that people talk **** about you, and still pursue your hobby.

[garym1a2]

Their needs to be more people out their to teach the new AR owners and newbees the art. Their actions of the last few months of buying every semi-auto made has done a lot to keep the senate from passing new laws to ban them. THe mag dump schools are a waste, dumping mag after mag standing in front of a target from 25 yards. The need to be properly taught what all the gear is on the gun and why simple is better. Also how to properly use a set of sights a zero a gun. The appleseed program is not a bad start. Organized competions help a lot. highpower is a great way to really learn how to shoot a rifle.
If a newbe is having trouble with a gun, instead of embarssing them why not give a few pointers and explain that they could get better too if they had already put 20 thousand rounds thru a gun.

[montana_charlie]

My 75 year-old wife said something surprising about ten days ago. She said she thinks she would like to start shooting again.
My first question was, "Again?" We used to occasionally go 'plinking' down by the river when we lived in Wichita, back in 1971, but I never thought of her as a shooter, back then. Just put a few through my old Beretta .22 and call it good.

So, since none of my guns are suitable for her small frame and not-so-strong hands, I put together a collapsible stock for my AR so it can be made short enough for her. We went out today 'cuz it was warm and calm, and she put every one of ten rounds on the paper from a hundred yards ... and seven of them were inside the man silhouette.

Not bad for a little old lady who has never seen a peep sight, and who last picked up a gun 42 years ago.

Does that qualify me as an instructor?

CM

[Love Life]

Were you wearing pants with cargo pockets?

[P.K.]

Where you find the wannabes ...

And Mall Ninja's. ;-)

[Bad Water Bill]

SPEECH----SPEECH----SPEECH

We want to hear from Mrs montana_charlie on how she enjoyed her first day back at the range after a 42 year absence.:D

[9.3X62AL]

I'll bet she had a blast. ARs are fun toys, let Marie have mine and I have 200 empties and a rifle to clean in a half hour, tops.

[OeldeWolf]

Thank you, Love Life.

I am about 4 hours from Reno, though I used to live there.

thank you to everyone with advice. I did the CMP garand matches for a few years. Was never bottom of the list, which is ok for entirely self taught, from books. Either this saturday, or more likely next weekend, I am going to see if the old mil surps are going to kill me, or what I have retained. Might be entertaining to be a fly on the bench. lol will likely need to leave the cane in the truck, to get things down the stairs to the 200 yard range.

I spend far moore time here, listening sand learning, than speaking up. You are a wonderful community to be in.

[montana_charlie]

Were you wearing pants with cargo pockets?
Uhh ... we really do live "at the end of the road". So, pants are still required?


SPEECH----SPEECH----SPEECH

We want to hear from Mrs montana_charlie on how she enjoyed her first day back at the range after a 42 year absence.:D
I'll see if I can get her to say something ...

CM

[Love Life]

I have been checking the mail and I still haven't got any boxes with a face punch it.

[montana_charlie]

This is Mrs Montana Charlie but you can call me Cowgirl. That's my handle because of where I live not what I do. I don't do cows and you would probably be happier not knowing waht my profession was.

CM built his rifle to suit himself and the front part is way too heavy for me. So I can only shoot it from the bench that he set up. If the barrel was samller I wouldn't need furniture to shoot holes in things.

But shooting the AR15 was not a problem and hitting the target is not very difficult. I would expect to get better with practice. But I haven't decided if I want him to build a lighter one for me.

LoveLife CM still has his old uniforms from Viet Nam and they have those pockets on the legs. But he's probably too fat to wear them these days.


There you go, guys. That's her story and she's stickin' to it ...
CM

[cbrick]

Well great, now that you have our interest peaked what was your profession?

Rick

[Ohio Rusty]

I can verify Case Stuffers experience. I had the same experience regularly knocking down targert from 600 to 800 yards with an M16. We also had unlimited ammo to shoot ..... In order to get my sharpsshooter badge, i had to shoot 15 in a row from 100 to 700 yards. My spotter called them and I hit them. The D.I just said that was great shooting. We regulary shot long distances with M14's, M16's and M60's.
When I was in, a magazine was for the M-16, and a clip was for the .45 auto pistol. That way when your buddy under fire yelled he needed a new clip, you knew to hand him a clip of pistol rounds .... not a magazine of 223's. Of course today ... the word 'clip' in gun circles is bad ju-ju and politically incorrect.
Ohio Rusty ><>

[MOcaster]

I agree with Recluse that some of the training is ridiculous but I have shot the way he described (and on my back with my feet away from the target, with my head and Glock turned upside down, which is confusing and hard) before with a pistol. But I was training with a Special Forces trainer that knows exactly what he is doing. Don't try this without a professional. He also told me that he trained with an AR-15/M4 standing on his head simulating being in a car that has hit an IED and flipped. So some of the things you see are not completely crazy. But again, it was with a SF guy.

[firefly1957]

Gee some how i missed those posts on facebook no loss by the sound of it.

[runfiverun]

I have been checking the mail and I still haven't got any boxes with a face punch it.

I keep putting them in the box but every time I go to tape it up it's empty. [shrug]
I even tried to put a slap in there but I was doing it one handed and couldn't hear it rattling around sooo I just gave up.
I did give littlegirl a kick in the shin, if we make the Nevada shoot she will pass it along.

[Love Life]

I keep putting them in the box but every time I go to tape it up it's empty. [shrug]
I even tried to put a slap in there but I was doing it one handed and couldn't hear it rattling around sooo I just gave up.
I did give littlegirl a kick in the shin, if we make the Nevada shoot she will pass it along.

If it shows up I'll forward it to my brother...

[gray wolf]

Does that qualify me as an instructor?

CM
Don't know about the instructor qualification ?? But a good guy award for sure.
Many more good days to you and the misses.

[bayjoe]

Those guys aught to live near a special forces outfit. I lived in Clovis NM, which Canon air force base was close by. Canon was turned into a special forces base. I would go to the local gun range and some of these guys would be out there. I would almost be embarassed to pull a gun out. Those guys can shoot !!!!! They would shoot circles around everybody and never say a word or crack a grin. And you will never meet a group of young men with better manners.