Tula reloads

[161]

I know you are not suppose to do it but the Hi Point Carbine and the S&W 625 don't seem to mind. 4 gr of Red Dot a Tula LP primer Tula case and the LEE 230 TL. Lot of people on here have done it so I thought I'd give it a shot.
65046

[Uncle Jimbo]

Don't know why you are not suppose to do it but they look good to me. And if they shot good, why not.

[jonp]

why not? are they the steel case?

[161]

Yep steel

[whisler]

Shame on you! You didn't listen to what "they" said. Oh wait, isn't that why we are here!

[TCFAN]

Just a few days ago I took 10 steel Tula 45 acp cases that had been fired one time and reloaded them each with 5 grs of Bullseye and a lyman 200 gr SWC. I ended up shootin 9 of the case 10 times before giving up on all of them splitting. I had one case split at shot number 6.
I think from this I am going to start picking up all of the steel case that I find.I will loose them before they split from reloading them............Terry

[Agent1187]

Are the steel casings boxer primed nowadays?
I've always picked up the aluminum ones and used them till they split or looked close to it. They just never look quite as pretty as brass, but loosing them in the snow isn't a heartbreaking event either.

[smokesahoy]

steel is fine, i load it too. just be sure to protect from rust, that's the only issue that has any merit imo, so during resizing I'm sure to be sure each gets a rubdown

[kir_kenix]

I reload steel cased ammo too. Save them for special occasions when I'm going to lose the casings. Anytime I go to a tactical shoot I lose 99% of the brass anyway...so i figure I'd rather lose junk steelies than reloadable gems.

[runfiverun]

you tumble lubed them.. oh the agony.

[Raven_Darkcloud]

Yup reload'um and go.

[justing]

i have been reloading steel for a while now up to 7 reloads on some with no sign or cracks or splits

[jonp]

Do you have to load them with a lighter charge than brass and is the steel case hard enough to damage dies? I've always thought you couldn't reload them and have been throwing them away.
What is everyone coating them with to prevent rusting?

[WHITETAIL]

You see I just lerned somthing new here again!:p

[41 mag fan]

Those steel cases might just be the answer to the SHTF stash.

[EMC45]

I load those all the time. They do real good for me. Same bullet and all.

[Poygan]

I have reloaded both the steel and aluminum .45 cases. I lube the steel cases with Imperial wax lube to make it easier on the carbide dies. I ran a limited test and had neck splitting on both around the sixth reload/firing. Boxer primers of course. I had no rusting issues with the steel cases but the wax case lube might have helped.

[res45]

Are the steel casings boxer primed nowadays?
I've always picked up the aluminum ones and used them till they split or looked close to it. They just never look quite as pretty as brass, but loosing them in the snow isn't a heartbreaking event either.

Wolf/Tula steel case 45 ACP,40 S & W and .223 are all boxer primed. A friend on another board is up to 9 reloads on the steel case .223 using upper midrange loads.

[runfiverun]

you know that nu-finish they put on cars and brass cases?
it puts a coating on steel too.

[rintinglen]

I have reloaded both the steel and aluminum .45 cases. I lube the steel cases with Imperial wax lube to make it easier on the carbide dies. I ran a limited test and had neck splitting on both around the sixth reload/firing. Boxer primers of course. I had no rusting issues with the steel cases but the wax case lube might have helped.

Exactly my experience with steel cases! I have not tried aluminum cases, but I loaded 8 steel, boxer-primed, range pickups and fired them. One got lost early on, but on the 6th loading, two had obvious split necks and a third had a tiny crack that I only saw with a magnifying glass. I have not done any formal accuracy testing, but i don't recall any prominent differences between the groups from the steel case and those from the brass.
Based on what I've seen, the only drawback I could see was the percieved need on my part to lube the cases before sizing, not usually part of my pistol ammo reloading practice.

[I'll Make Mine]

If there were a practical way to anneal the necks of steel cases, they'd probably last about like brass does. Unfortunately, where brass is simple and very practical to anneal (just heat the neck to the appropriate temperature and then air or quench cool), annealing steel is much more involved and, because of the time factors required, difficult to do on a localized basis (i.e. annealing the neck and shoulder as opposed to the entire case).

I *think* it might be possible to anneal steel cases before depriming by coating the outside with a suitable water repellant (wax?), filling them with fine lead shot, and standing them in a pan of water about 2/3 as high as the shoulder (or halfway to the mouth for straight wall cases), then baking them at high heat in an oven (450º to 500º F, depending on the alloy -- do we know what alloy is used?) for a suitable time before reducing the oven temp over a period of hours (can't just turn it off, the 212º F water will chill the cases too rapidly to get a full anneal). Whether this is practical compared to just torch heating a brass case, or sticking it in a pot of molten casting alloy, is another question -- but it would be the way to get steel cases to last like brass cases do.

[dualsport]

I pick up the steel cases when they are fresh. Forget the nasty ones that have been exposed too long, the supply is plentiful. I don't save them for a second re load. I guess I would if I had to. The .223 works great in my two H&R .223s. Builds up a nice stash of Zombie ammo real cheap using boolits. Maybe $5/100. I have guns I won't use steel case ammo in and guns I do. I call them my 'wolf' guns.

[MtGun44]

Not going out looking for steel cases, but have loaded a fair number that just came
up on the range brass mix. No noticable issues other than more grunt on the handle
when resizing.

Bill

[Geppetto]

If there were a practical way to anneal the necks of steel cases, they'd probably last about like brass does. Unfortunately, where brass is simple and very practical to anneal (just heat the neck to the appropriate temperature and then air or quench cool), annealing steel is much more involved and, because of the time factors required, difficult to do on a localized basis (i.e. annealing the neck and shoulder as opposed to the entire case).

I *think* it might be possible to anneal steel cases before depriming by coating the outside with a suitable water repellant (wax?), filling them with fine lead shot, and standing them in a pan of water about 2/3 as high as the shoulder (or halfway to the mouth for straight wall cases), then baking them at high heat in an oven (450º to 500º F, depending on the alloy -- do we know what alloy is used?) for a suitable time before reducing the oven temp over a period of hours (can't just turn it off, the 212º F water will chill the cases too rapidly to get a full anneal). Whether this is practical compared to just torch heating a brass case, or sticking it in a pot of molten casting alloy, is another question -- but it would be the way to get steel cases to last like brass cases do.

Interesting thought, however, It would not result in "annealing" of the cases. To "Anneal" steel, you would have to bring the temp up over 1600* F and then slow cool. (basically bring to orange). I don't know what type of steel would be used to produce the casings, but i doubt it would have much carbon in it. Therefore, you would not necessarily need to cool it really slow, but it would need to come down slow. Air cooling would result in a normalizing heat treatment, which should also result in decreased hardness and increase the formability. I don't think heating them up to only 500 would have much of an effect on the hardness, although it might result in a slight reduction. To really undo the "cold work" that is occurring during firing, you would need to anneal the material.

You would really need to have some sort of a heat treat furnace or similar to properly anneal the case. And at that point, you would need to have a properly controlled atmosphere so you don't oxidize the carp out of the cases.

[jonp]

This sounds like a job for a ceramic kiln. This is just what it does, heats up then cools slowly on a timer. If someone has a wife, or themselves for that matter, that does ceramics then I'd be interested if they gave it a shot and what happens. My grandmother had a kiln in the basement and taught ceramics for years.

[161]

I ran this bunch through a LEE Bulge Buster die after I lubed them with Dillon spray case lube. The kind that you put your empties in a container spray the lube on and shake like you'er tumble lubing. After they go through the Bulge Buster they go in the polisher. I bet after they are loaded a trip back into the lube container would stop them from rusting. I polish before I load in case some of the spray went inside the case. Don't want it contaminating the powder. I've shot steel and aluminum cases before but only two or three loads. Sounds like they'll run longer than that.

[Bullwolf]

I reloaded steel case 45 ACP for many years, long before anyone mentioned that it might be bad to do so.

I shot many a box of steel case 45ACP Hardball from Twin Cities Arsenal, and Evansville Ordnace Plant. I still have a few unfired boxes around for the collector value.

While the modern inexpensive Wolf and Tula steel case ammo might seem like a new idea, the surplus steel case 45ACP that I was reloading was from the 1950's.

http://picturearchive.gunauction.com/87/10302282/36834fae759e022bbc6056c322917e44.jpg

http://picturearchive.gunauction.com/87/10302282/a1961ae7cc4aea5a936fd9908591cbf0.jpg

After shooting most of my steel case ammo, I reloaded it, and fired it again, and again mixed in with my brass 45ACP cartridge cases. I still have a fair amount of the original steel cases left, stored in 1 gallon Zip-loc bags. They have been fired and reloaded many times now.

I had no problems loading, and firing any of the steel cased ammo.

The steel cases worked fine as long as they were not left outside and exposed to the weather, as they could rust. If I found a rusty case, I just threw it away.

I followed standard loading practices, tumbled the cases clean, and used steel (non carbide) RCBS dies, case lube, and a RCBS chamfer and deburring tool.

My dies are fine, and so are my 1911's. No scratches in the dies, scratched chambers, or broken extractors.

While steel cases are not my first choice in once fired cases, or range brass, they do work. I have reloaded some of the modern Tula and Wolf steel cases as well, though not more than once. I like to use them as disposable cases when I know I will be shooting someplace where it's difficult to recover my brass. A big magnet works great for sorting steel cases, or to help you find hidden cases quickly in leaves, or pine needles.

Adding a cap full of automotive wax to the tumbler media helps keep the steel cases from rusting, especially after you have fired them once, or sized off the lacquer coating. You probably won't like using steel cases at all, if you have to pick them up after a good rain, or after the snow melts.

In short, yes they definitely work with 45ACP. The steel cases are just not quite as desirable as brass for most of the above mentioned reasons.


- Bullwolf

[dverna]

With the crazy price of once fired cases in .45 it may make sense to load steel even if dies do wear out sooner. My buddy just paid $100 for 1000 .45 ACP cases. If you can get steel cases for free, you can afford to replace dies even if they only last 2000 rounds.

I wonder if tumbling steel cases in media with a couple of tablespoons of WD40 fluid would give a light coating to aid sizing and provide some rust protection?

I have steel case .223 for "blasting ammo". I may need to try them out and see how they work.

[I'll Make Mine]

To "Anneal" steel, you would have to bring the temp up over 1600* F and then slow cool. (basically bring to orange). I don't know what type of steel would be used to produce the casings, but i doubt it would have much carbon in it. Therefore, you would not necessarily need to cool it really slow, but it would need to come down slow. Air cooling would result in a normalizing heat treatment, which should also result in decreased hardness and increase the formability.

Given we don't want to soften the head or lower body at all, this suggests that the old brass annealing method (heat neck in a torch flame), modified to eliminate quenching, should be applicable to steel cases. We'd heat them orange with a propane or MAPP torch and then place them on an insulating surface (to avoid too-rapid cooling) to air cool and normalize. Any heat treatment done in an oven with temperature/time combination too high to keep a water bath on the head will wind up softening the head -- but if these are low-carbon (and there's no reason they shouldn't be; deep drawing militates against higher carbon and even the mildest steel is as strong as work-hardened brass) there's no need for a full anneal.

I've got a bunch of copper wash once-fired surplus 7.62x54R cases that I've been saving to convert to 209 primers for light loads; I may try normalizing the necks of a few and see what I get.

[jonp]

I often hear about the steel cased ammo being "hard on a gun" and many won't use it because of this. I have found this to be right up there with the "common knowledge that you can't reload steel cases". I've run several hundred rounds of it through various firearms and have not found any signs of excessive wear. It is not my first choice because it tends to be less accurate than brass but I have no hesitation in using it.

[Case Stuffer]

resting thought, however, It would not result in "annealing" of the cases. To "Anneal" steel, you would have to bring the temp up over 1600* F and then slow cool.

First off I have no data on stell used to form ammo however I have many years experience heat treating many type of Tool Steels including , case / flame ,sulfur ,water ,oil,air hardening which run the range from around 1500 to 2,000 F. After these have been thusly heat treated (hardened) they are as brittle a glass and thus have to be tempered (drawn) which varies from 350 to 700F or so. Please be advised that it has in fact been around 30 years since I worked at a shop where I did my own heat treating so my from memory temperatures are likely off a little.

[altheating]

I have used the Tula Steel cases in a 1911. No problems at all. After I load them I spread them out on a old towel and use a cloth coated with mineral spirits to rub them down for a bit of rust preventative. Store them in a sealed coffee can. Heck, they were free! The only bad thing was they were a mix of small and large primed cases, so I had to sort them all.

[Harter66]

Dverna,
it is my understanding WD is hard on primers directly or through creep.Old school case lube I expect will do as well as anything else ie RCBS used to be little more than STP oil treatment as I understand it. Of course in my desert world it doesn't take much to stop rust.

[HangFireW8]

I often hear about the steel cased ammo being "hard on a gun" and many won't use it because of this. I have found this to be right up there with the "common knowledge that you can't reload steel cases". I've run several hundred rounds of it through various firearms and have not found any signs of excessive wear. It is not my first choice because it tends to be less accurate than brass but I have no hesitation in using it.

A few hundred rounds is a demonstration, better than an anecdote but not a definitive test.

Here are facts involving 10,000 rounds each and four identical AR's:

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

The short answer is, steel is harder on arms, but maybe not as hard as many fear. However any summary falls short of a detailed reading of the test.

HF

[blackthorn]

If indeed "even the mildest steel is as strong as work-hardened brass" as suggested by "I'll Make Mine", why would we need to be concerned if the whole case was annealed? Just curious.

[jonp]

A few hundred rounds is a demonstration, better than an anecdote but not a definitive test.

Here are facts involving 10,000 rounds and four identical AR's:

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

The short answer is, steel is harder on arms, but maybe not as hard as many fear. However any summary falls short of a detailed reading of the test.

HF
Thanks for the link. This is the first actual extended test involving steel vs brass I have seen and is well worth the reading. The bottom line of it all is that the savings of the much cheaper steel Russian ammo pays for a new barrel, extractor and spring a few times over. Even if replacing the barrel once and extractor/spring twice during extended shooting you would still have money in the pocket at the end. Looks much like a judgement call to me and I shoot maybe 200 rounds a month if I'm lucky through my AR's. 5,000 rounds to a new barrel would take me a couple of years so IDK. Great article and pretty much says it all.

[I'll Make Mine]

If indeed "even the mildest steel is as strong as work-hardened brass" as suggested by "I'll Make Mine", why would we need to be concerned if the whole case was annealed? Just curious.

That's a good point that hadn't occurred to me -- so I went and looked up some figures to make sure I'd remembered correctly. Turns out cartridge brass (70% copper, 30% zinc, aka "wrought copper alloy C26000") has a maximum cold work yield of 434 MPa, while 1018 steel (one of the mildest of mild steels), in "normalized" condition (where we'd get by heating to 1200º C, roundly orange color temperature, and then air cooling), has yield around 330 MPa -- a fair bit softer than the hardest cartridge brass can get (though case alloy probably isn't actual 1018; it probably contains less manganese and so won't harden quite as much, but the low end strength isn't likely to be much less). Further, a setup similar to torch annealing brass case mouths could be used to normalize the mouths of steel cases without heating the heads beyond the bottom end of the tempering range (heat case mouth orange and let entire case air cool; the heads should stay below 500º F, at least on most bottle neck rifle cases).

That said, the heads of brass cartridges aren't fully work hardened; the full cup is annealed at least a couple times during the drawing process to prevent splitting; the last time is usually just before the rim or extraction groove, primer pocket, and headstamp are swaged (the brass has to be soft for that operation in order to flow in the die). Therefore, it most likely is safe (metallurgically and mechanically) to normalize the complete steel case, though the heating involved is enough to produce oxidation scale on the inside and outside of the case unless heating is done in an inert atmosphere -- not very practical for most of us.

Since this isn't a full anneal, it will most likely need to be done more often than annealing brass case mouths, and material loss to scale formation (which will then have to be removed, likely by tumbling, before sizing etc., to protect dies) will limit case life; in the end, steel cases won't last as long as brass even if normalized regularly -- but if they're a bunch cheaper, they might well be worth reloading if other factors don't intervene.

[MtGun44]

HangFire - Thanks for the link. Amazing test. Lots to learn but a quick read
indicates that the copper coated steel jackets were ripping the rifling right
out of the barrels. Not sure that the cases were much of an issue, altho
the extractors showed more edge chipping and peening with the steel cases
and some minor smooth rounding with the brass.

Well worth reading. They had to have spent in the range of $10K for that
test, less any range or labor costs for all the work, casting, measuring
recording, sectioning barrels, writing the whole thing up. Impressive
and seems to be very well done.

My limited experience with a few dozen steel cases cycling through is that
they are no big deal. Would I look to find them as a real substitute for
brass? Not as long as I can get brass at reasonable prices. Of course, I
have about 2 lifetime's supply of brass .45 ACP cases put away for "the hard
times".

Bill

[HangFireW8]

You're both welcome for the link. I wish I had the kind of money (and time) to do stuff like that!

[jonp]

You're both welcome for the link. I wish I had the kind of money (and time) to do stuff like that!
You aren't lieing.
"Hey, what do you want to do today?"
"IDK, let's get 4 AR15's and 40,000 rounds of ammo and go shooting"
"Sounds like fun, let me get my recoil pad and let's hit it"