A good boolit for hunting the 30-06 at 2500 FPS?

[pmer]

Are there any boolit designs that would lend themselves good for velocities in the 2500 FPS range for hunting with 30-06. I have a older Model 70 30-06 Featherweight with an unusually short throat. I don't have any measurements at the moment but wondering whats out there that would make a good cast boolit for hunting at faster than 30-30 velocities.

I'm having good luck shooting the 32 Win Spl in a lever action at 2200 FPS but haven't tried going any faster.


OK, I found that other thread about a similar question and been reading that one.

[Moonie]

What are you hunting that needs that much velocity? I hunt with a 245gr .311 boolit @ 1,950fps, should go end to end through just about anything I point it at within reasonable ranges.

[runfiverun]

the faster you go the smaller the meplat you can get away with.

[Char-Gar]

That dog won't hunt. The Model 70 30-06 with it's 1-10 twist is not likely to make you happy if you strive for 2.5K fps. The 32 WS has a 1-16 twist barrel and that is an entirely different animal that plays by different rules.

[45 2.1]

It's all a matter of how you go about it. Several people here run a 180 gr. cast boolit at about 2600 fps in the 308 with a 10 twist with excellent accuracy. The 30-06 gets you there with a little less pressure. However, you need to learn how and your mileage won't be the same as someone else's.

[303Guy]

What are you hunting that needs that much velocity? I hunt with a 245gr .311 boolit @ 1,950fps, should go end to end through just about anything I point it at within reasonable ranges.How do you load those to fit the magazine? That's a rather long boolit - about what I would like in my 303 but it needs seating below the shoulder. It seems to me that 245gr .311 doing 1950fps is about all one would need for an awful lot of stuff. I even used one like that for turkey (quite a bit slower) and to make it work I gave it a massive but shallow hollow nose. My theory was that the large hollow would expand on small critters but blow off leaving a large meplat for large critters. Never did shoot a large critter with one. I dropped the long and heavy for a flat meplat boolit that would fit the magazine, that being a 208gr .311.

[Shiloh]

Thats pretty fast. IIRC, 2200-2300 is as fast as I have gone in .30 cal. Accuracy was much better at sub 2000 fps.
Good accuracy around 1800-1850.

Shiloh

[runfiverun]

speed is easy.
speed with accuracy ain't.
to get there you have to take one step forward and a half step back at a time.
make up the half step.
and then try again.
i'm in the middle of a half step right now [stuck at 2250 with accuracy] going to 2300 in my 10 twist 308 opens the groups a little.
I might just push on past and see if things come back around.
but with some options I have yet to explore I can get to my goal of 2400 fps.

I have spent as much time [okay more] reading, thinking, and revamping some of my processes as I have shooting and just filling cases trying stuff.

[x101airborne]

You can get there, but it will take some work, as previously mentioned. Paper patching would be the quickest way to get there. My '06 is one I built on a mauser intermediate action and I cannot use real long boolits anyway, and it has a 1-12 twist barrel on it. Even at 2200 fps, I am far from disappointed with it. I could actually back off some and still be quite content. I just like getting under my dad's skin because he is a die hard core-lokt shooter. My brass lasts forever, rounds are cheap, and when dad was having to order ammo (some of it up to 60.00 a twenty round box for the 264 Win Mag), I could make 250 rounds for the '06 for a fraction of his cost. And that just tweaked him.

[Larry Gibson]

As mentioned the 2600 fps is easy.....the speed with accuracy isn't..........

There are some who claim to do both (Obvious from one post above) but most of us with a lot of experience haven't seen both consistent accuracy and velocity at anywhere near 2600 fps in a 10" twist '06. With some specific designed cast bullets and everything done right you might see 2300 - 2400 fps sometimes with accuracy of say 2 moa for 5 shot groups; sometimes less, many times more....... You can chase your tail if you want on that one as many of us have. The caveat "However, you need to learn how and your mileage won't be the same as someone else's. " will always be there when you don't succeed. You won't be shown how it is done but will get a lot of hocus pocus on how it's done but the hocus pocus always changes as you question and will remain a moving target.......finally in the end when you don't succeed you will be lumped in with the rest of us near do wells and the master will vanish into the mist across the rice paper leaving not a trace for you to follow..........

If you go that road then come back to the rest of us who will gladly show you what can really be done with cast bullets in the '06 with a 10" twist. We'll be glad to help.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

Several of the Lyman reloading manuals list Cast Boolit data for the 30-06 in the mid 2500 fps range. Since they publish only loads showing good results you might try those instead of adhering to the above rant.

[Recluse]

OP asked about loads and possibilities for high-velocity cast boolit loads in 30-06.

He didn't ask to be part of a weenie-wagging contest, of which by the way, is getting pretty damned old.

:coffee:

[waksupi]

My .308 (K11 Schmidt-Rubin) seems to really like the 2450 fps range, shooting a Lee 170 gr. It will stay in under 1.5" at 100 yards. I did try pushing faster, and when I got around 2650, my groups were around 3.5". I'm sure they would have shrunk if I would have really wanted to do everything right, but I wasn't all that interested in pursuing a faster load in the rifle. As it was, the 2450 was faster than I wanted for hunting purposes. It was WAY more destructive on deer than I cared for at that speed.

By the way, if the age old argument arises, all involved parties will be gone for ten days each, for a start.

[pmer]

Thanks for all the advice guys. Since I started casting I haven't had the 30-06 out in the field. It has been revolvers and lever actions for deer out here on the farm. So then my thought was to push it faster than the 32 Winchester Special or I could keep using the 32; but maybe that thinking is too black and white.

I have another safe queen that my "mid twos " thought came up about as well. That's a 338-06 that also has a 10 twist barrel. I don't have any 30 or 338 cal molds. You're right, I don't have to go that fast it's more of a want than a need.

The 338-06 is really something with 200 grain j words at 2800, super low SDs.

[pmer]

I suppose we're talking a little tighter fit and a good gas seal. Would a multi lube grove boolit be better than the Lyman 30-30 design. I'm picturing a checked spitzer shaped boolit with a extra lube grove and a heavier front band to help get it spinning?

[GabbyM]

Don't think more lube is the cure to reach high velocity.
I've never had issues with running out of lube. Not even with 26 inch barrels. Have a couple Loverin style bullets which hold copious amounts of lube. They don't seam to go any faster before loosing accuracy than small lube grove boolits.

[waksupi]

I would stay away from spitzer design, and go Loverin.

You are suffering through some growing pains. You MUST forget about jacket bullets altogether when you start shooting cast. The cast do what jacketed try to do. The reason jacketed bullet design is being constantly tweaked, is because they do not perform up to cast boolits.

[1Shirt]

Agree with Larry G. If I were to make a recommendation however, it would be a 311284 HP, in the vol range of 2000-2200.
1Shirt!

[runfiverun]

I wouldn't be picturing too much of a spitzer shape you have to have enough nose strength to handle the acceleration and rotation.
I do better with as much bearing surface as possible.
one lube groove is plenty.
fill everything you can from the neck shoulder junction to the rifling and mimick that rifling start with your boolit shape.
get the centerline of the boolit as near the centerline of the barrel as possible.

[TCLouis]

I would find the grease groove version of Ranch dog's 165 grainer, then look at my supplies of medium to slow burning powders and just keep increasing the load data from a reliable manual until accuracy falls off.

Certainly not an answer to the question you asked, but I always develop loads starting boolit, then powder, then accuracy and then speed

To paraphrase some famous persons saying 'One can not misplace higher speed shots fast enough'

I use RD's boolit because I do not have any of the heavier Lyman, RCBS or other company's molds.
Any or all of them may be a better answer to your quest.

Paper patching is likely a method to reach your goals if all else fails.

[303Guy]

I've had this theory for a while now that a longer and heavier boolit with better BC and better penetration (over penetration?) can be driven to the same speed as a lighter boolit with a bigger case. Isn't there a Goldilocks zone in which boolit hardness/ductility and velocity come together for optimum performance on game as well as accuracy? Does a longer boolit not give an advantage in accuracy potential due to its bore aligning properties? And does the 30-06 case not have the advantage of being able to deliver those velocities with a gentler launch, thus optimizing the accuracy potential? And finally, is a velocity of around 2500fps not too fast for cast? It's going to require too hard a boolit to expand reliably or it's going to blow the critter up somewhat if more malleable?

[runfiverun]

first off a production parallel sided boolit isn't really the answer.
I have "looked" in some barrels the shoulder junction into the barrel isn't square.

the golden zone shifts and moves right along with velocity.
find the thread goodsteel started in the hunting section about his 358.
that is a prime example of boolit/bullet failure brought on by velocity.
you'll also see what I and others use in the same cartridge at a higher velocity with a heavier and same weight boolit with much less damage.
you can draw conclusions from that.

[softpoint]

Two wraps of tracing paper will probably get you there. My everyday 45/70 load here is a 340 gr. Lee out of BHN9 range scrap with 2 wraps, loaded to 1950fps. If you used a little harder mix and patched it, I believe you could go 2500 OK, although I haven't gone that fast, I know others have.

[sthwestvictoria]

find the thread goodsteel started in the hunting section about his 358.

This thread the one you mean?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172689-I-believe-the-cast-lead-rifle-boolit-is-the-most-effective-projectile-in-the-world

there is alsothis long thread about speed and fit in his 35/303:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?117817-Need-opinions-on-a-rifle-load-%28w-Pictures%29

[runfiverun]

yeah that top one is it.
you can see how 303 guy's analogy play's out in real life.

the second one really goes into depth about the pitfalls and measurements you need to be making.
what seems right isn't alway's so.
it's also a good case study in what one thousandth of an inch can do to make and break things.

[geargnasher]

I wouldn't be picturing too much of a spitzer shape you have to have enough nose strength to handle the acceleration and rotation.
I do better with as much bearing surface as possible.
one lube groove is plenty.
fill everything you can from the neck shoulder junction to the rifling and mimick that rifling start with your boolit shape.
get the centerline of the boolit as near the centerline of the barrel as possible.

There is a LOT said here with few words. I'm afraid many may have missed the significance of it. If anyone interested in squeezing the best accuracy and velocity from their cast boolits in rifles doesn't quite get the full meaning of every line, start asking questions.

Gear

[pmer]

Originally Posted by runfiverun
I wouldn't be picturing too much of a spitzer shape you have to have enough nose strength to handle the acceleration and rotation.
I do better with as much bearing surface as possible.
one lube groove is plenty.
fill everything you can from the neck shoulder junction to the rifling and mimick that rifling start with your boolit shape.
get the centerline of the boolit as near the centerline of the barrel as possible.


There is a LOT said here with few words. I'm afraid many may have missed the significance of it. If anyone interested in squeezing the best accuracy and velocity from their cast boolits in rifles doesn't quite get the full meaning of every line, start asking questions.

Gear

I'm not sure if he's talking about the Loverin designs but I have some tight chambered rifles and done some neck turning. Hopefully I can get some measurements tomorrow.

[runfiverun]

if you use a loverign design you need to have it backed off touching anything.
look at some of 45-2.1's designs.
the 22- nato is a prime example of matching a specific throat.
airc his 30 silh is based around a few different 30 cal throats you'd have to ask him for sure.
but it is a good 30-06 boolit. [especially for a non custom fit]
anyway if you look at how it is shaped it is designed to self align in the throat if you have a little run at it.
you still need to get everything straight to give it the best chance at velocity.

[303Guy]

Thanks runfiverun . I'd forgotten about that thread. An interesting observation on the deer of goodsteel's is that although the damage is substantial there is not really that much meat loss and no apparent collateral bruising. What worries me about that kind of wound effect is the effect on penetration. The information is in this forum somewhere.

I'm attempting to closely fit boolit to throat details. Not quite so easy. I did once attempt to cheat by applying a solid wax coating to the boolit and it did seem to work. The thick hard was coating was supposed to align the boolit nose on launch then momentarily provide a dynamic fluid support until the boolit was fully engaged by the rifling. The perfect fit boolit must be the only way to go!

[pmer]

This model 70 only has about .124" from the case mouth to the rifling. (case measured 2.488") The case neck expands about .0045" per side with J words and the bore is .3094, land of .302.

So if the boolit is a .311, neck expansion goes down to less than .004" per side. My WAG is that it could be worth a try if the boolit isn't too long. I might even get a little thicker case neck by necking down 35 Whelen brass, I use Whelen brass in the 338-06.

I've been seating Hornaday j words down past the crimp grove and it has been shooting good that way.

[GabbyM]

if you use a loverign design you need to have it backed off touching anything.
look at some of 45-2.1's designs.
the 22- nato is a prime example of matching a specific throat.
airc his 30 silh is based around a few different 30 cal throats you'd have to ask him for sure.
but it is a good 30-06 boolit. [especially for a non custom fit]
anyway if you look at how it is shaped it is designed to self align in the throat if you have a little run at it.
you still need to get everything straight to give it the best chance at velocity.

The Silh bullet has a nose similar to the Lyman 311672 in 160 grain which I have. Front band tapered out to meet the bore ride nose. I actually have one that cast a .310 x .300 boolit. Early Lyman molds were all undersized so this bullet design took a back seat. Plus it's a relatively low B.C. at .245. We have successfully shot that boolit to 2,400 fps from a customers 30-06. My new 06 has a large neck chamber so I don't know yet if it will run that well. Any day now I'll be receiving the MiHec 30 silh in the HP version.
Will be trying the Cu Babbitt alloy to see if I can reach higher than average velocities. Along with a few other bullet designs. As for performance on game animals. Guess we could bark at them. let them run out a couple hundred yards then shoot. Personally I 99% shoot onto paper and reactive targets. Farther away my target is the larger my jolly is.

Only Loverin boolits I've shot are my 84 grain 6mm and 122 grain 270. With both those calibers my issue was always seemingly bullet collapse. As when I saw a huge plume of smoke accuracy fell away. 1,850 fps in either caliber shoots great. Still working on going faster with 10 twist barrels. But a light charge of Unique gets either caliber to 1850 and is a joy to shoot out to 100 yards.

[GabbyM]

This model 70 only has about .124" from the case mouth to the rifling. (case measured 2.488") The case neck expands about .0045" per side with J words and the bore is .3094, land of .302.

So if the boolit is a .311, neck expansion goes down to less than .004" per side. My WAG is that it could be worth a try if the boolit isn't too long. I might even get a little thicker case neck by necking down 35 Whelen brass, I use Whelen brass in the 338-06.

I've been seating Hornaday j words down past the crimp grove and it has been shooting good that way.

.124" sound common. I've a couple cast boolits with .100" front bands and they are sometimes to fat in rifles without crowding the crimp grove for C.O.L. You've a grove diameter of .3094" and a bore of .3020" ? With a .308" J bullet you get .0045" expansion. Add .003" for a .311" cast boolit and you have a .0015" clearance. That's a hunting bullet still as you'd aim for a slip fit into a fired case for a .001" expanded clearance in a target boolit load. With tight rounds you need to measure everything so you don't get an overly tight one. Case neck turning and all that. Not a big deal if you want to set up to do that and spend some time with a lap full of brass while watching TV. I'd save that for down the road if you aren't there yet.

I could send you some Lyman 314299's with a nose something like .303". If the .303 nose chambers you could size the body down to fit any brass you have. $1.80 a pound plus postage. Alloy is AC 2:6 that I paid $1.65 for and drove 305 miles round trip to pick up. I also have a custom 30-30 body length bullet with a .302" nose .312" body that may work. But the base will be below the neck on an 06. I have those sitting here. My Cu babbit alloy project may be after planting season. And a little hernia surgery. ouch.

Right now I have to go out to see if the 4020 with bucket loader will start. For busting out the snow plow berm so we can get out and clean a restaurant tonight for the most important persons carpet cleaning business. First big snow here in Central Illinois.

[runfiverun]

good info gabby.
pay attention to the measurements he gave in the throat area and the brass, chamber, boolit relationship.
most of my better efforts actually have some scuffing on the boolit in front of the case from the throat area.
they are not grossly oversized in relation to the groove depth of the barrel.
and have a neck tension almost exactly as described above.

[geargnasher]

Gabby, is that 311672 the John Ardito boolit? It's a self-aligner like some of 45 2.1's designs.

Interestingly, Ardito played with something else little-known to solve the giant chamber neck and sloppy fit issues with available brass: The Ardito throating reamer. It cut the throat entrance to something like .314" and tapered like the nose of his boolit. He must have used a larger boolit than the production one cut by Lyman, IICRC he sized the boolit to just a faint fuzz smaller than the .314 throat entrance. That filled the chamber neck with regular brass. Swaging a boolit that big through a .308" groove was apparently no big deal and didn't hurt accuracy, in fact helped it a bunch between tight clearances and the nose profile fitting the throat profile exactly. I don't know if he seated to contact the lands or not, but I'd guess just off the lands.

Gear

[runfiverun]

off a click for chambering ease. like this ]]>>
I had walt [nei] cut me a 150gr version for my savage 340 with stronger drive bands and a slightly more tapered nose than the loverign design.
closer to the saeco 315 nose.
it will exceed jaxketed velocity/accuracy easily but only fits the one rifle.
I really should put a scope on the rifle now, but back then I could see.

[GabbyM]

Yes the 311672. It cast good boolits but for some reason it doesn't do well when run in my eight mold auto caster. Along with other boolits. Single mold Master Caster works fine. Needs some extra heat compared to similar wieght boolits. Square grease groves is one reason. Pretty much a non issue there. Little more tin than 2:6 alloy has and they are perfect.

Update:
No cleaning job tonight. My Jetta is stuck high center in a snow drift blocking the drive. John Deere 4020 is on battery charger. Dig out in morning or maybe just sit back and watch it melt.

[runfiverun]

cough, cough, 4/6/90 alloy, cough, sound familiar??

[pmer]

At least the snow melts where Gabby lives. My snow plow tractor is a Farmall 350 gasser. Those 4020s are nice though.

[303Guy]

So saying that one should match boolit strength to velocity is about terminal ballistics not internal ballistics! But perhaps the two are closely linked anyway except one can go too hard. Launch rate seems to me to be of major interest. I have recovered boolits fired at low velocity showing nose slump using fast powder(Trail Boss). Yet faster boolits of the same alloy show no base deformation using slower powder. All of which raises the question of powder choice. There can be no hope in hades of attaining accuracy with a nose slumped boolit and that is one of the more difficult to 'diagnose' conditions due to impact damage. But talking 30-06 I can't help thinking of it being an ideal launch platform for higher velocity because of the large case - lower launch pressure with longer sustained pressure curve = higher accurate velocity. Providing one uses the 'right' powder. I've switched to W780 in my 303 with the hopes of finding that Goldilocks pressure curve. I like what my first few test tube firings show. Now to get to the range .... [smilie=1:

Anyway, your objectives are the same as mine (except I'm looking for 2000 - 2200 fps).

[pmer]

303Guy,
I take it that your chamber throat is longer than what the OAL of the magazine affords? I wonder if using a load ladder would help find the best groups for the combos that you're trying?

I picked up .311 and .312 sizers and a top punch for a sillywet nose profile today. Hopping GabbyM will get back to me about sending some boolits to try.

[303Guy]

I take it that your chamber throat is longer than what the OAL of the magazine affords? Well, that would depend on the boolit or bullet. Longer than a bullet load requires, yes but my cast and patched boolits are too long for the throat. Not really a contradiction as the boolits are being made to fit an unsized neck and not to have a bore-ride nose. I do have a rifle with a well worn throat and bore that does accept a magazine length boolit seated firmly in an unsized neck and engage the long leade. Now that's a gem! I have another with an oversize bore that does the same but it has a reverse taper from midway on. :cry: I will be range testing it before I consider chopping the barrel down to make a bush carbine. My rust enlarged 'pig gun' is the same but its rifling is very rough yet id does seem to shoot quite well within what could be considered a bush and rain gun's working range.

[MaxJon]

As mentioned the 2600 fps is easy.....the speed with accuracy isn't..........

There are some who claim to do both (Obvious from one post above) but most of us with a lot of experience haven't seen both consistent accuracy and velocity at anywhere near 2600 fps in a 10" twist '06. With some specific designed cast bullets and everything done right you might see 2300 - 2400 fps sometimes with accuracy of say 2 moa for 5 shot groups; sometimes less, many times more....... You can chase your tail if you want on that one as many of us have. The caveat "However, you need to learn how and your mileage won't be the same as someone else's. " will always be there when you don't succeed. You won't be shown how it is done but will get a lot of hocus pocus on how it's done but the hocus pocus always changes as you question and will remain a moving target.......finally in the end when you don't succeed you will be lumped in with the rest of us near do wells and the master will vanish into the mist across the rice paper leaving not a trace for you to follow..........

If you go that road then come back to the rest of us who will gladly show you what can really be done with cast bullets in the '06 with a 10" twist. We'll be glad to help.

Larry Gibson

thats great thanks!